PDA

View Full Version : Really from another Big Bang, thats it?



JRoos
2011-Mar-15, 04:22 AM
Before the chit-chatting session we should really consider our current living situation. I mean, each race or species should worry at the least about their own no? We are letting our race go, and not only that we are taking the life of the only place that we know has it. We ain't doing much about it, considering human capabilities. So we should consider if this looking up thing is really worth it. I mean it's great to find out stuff and all, but it's just knowing. If we don't apply the learned and teach the knowledge to better the place we live in, all that mankind has done over all these millions of years is irrelevant. "might as well have been dirt".

Watching "Science Channel" just found out scientists are trying to actually use math to find out what happened before the Big Bang (B.B.). Sadly enough, no actual theory seemed worthy for all-mighty science. Among others one of the theories in short is the B.B. happened from the end of another universe. Really? that's it. Hundreds of years of creating the most complex mechanisms for man to analyze day-to-day events, billions of ours spent by man and woman thinking without end, day-after-day- after-day. All these books, thousands of theories, experiments etc. And they come up with an answer that I figured out by watching TV and thinking. Really? Math VS. Common Sense. When it comes to the beginning math is obsolete. Unless you want an answer such as... "Ammm well.... i guess it's a cycle... it ends and ammmm it starts all over again."

We all know from what we have found out that the universe around us is changing, in some sense being created. Massive explosions separate, gravity pulls together, elements, cold, heat etc. We know stars are being born and dying. We know how galaxies end up getting bigger, how they perish and how they came to be in the first place. What I'm trying to say is, since all that is happening now in the universe is happening now, we can assume that something such as the B.B. could have occurred. And by such it could have been a product of a past universe, so on and so forth.

I don't do much formulas and theories I listen and make judgments. Everybody else does the hard work. Not fair, but useful.

Without much mathematical experience we can make some theories:

1. The Universe is indeed the product of another ending Universe.

2. In an already existing Universe this Universe was created.
- sort of like an accidental by-product. A mistake, for example life in some form that got greedy on knowledge and decide to mix a couple of elements, factors and certain conditions and BOOOMMM!! Big Bang.

3. We could support the theory that there are a little less than infinite amount of universes, or multi-verses. All in a much, much bigger space of course. All the product of perhaps different types or the same type of B.B.

4. This universe is all alone in a test-tube. It's really not that hard. Gravity + bunch of elements = universe.

5. Our kind has not yet found the technology to see beyond or between our Universe but when we do it will be like... oh... right, yeah, that explains everything.

This still does not explain the beginning. No elements no light, no darkness, no space, no emptiness. That my friends is the question. We CANNOT assume the Universal cycle of doom-and-gloom has just been forever. Because we know that things are indeed created from something. Something before, and something else before that. So what came before the first B.B.; why everything. We can't really assume anything. We have lived for millions of years, and we could say that most of the knowledge we use to guide us (mathematical stuff) is no more than a thousand years old, give or take. IN ONE THOUSAND YEARS WE FOUND OUT EVERYTHING, or most of what there is to know about our universe (about what we can see visually or through machine). But when it comes to before; well we might need a couple more years. Like most species that discover what's outside their habitat, we have found our limit, our wall. We might just never come to understand such things. What something was before something, or how nothing(something nonetheless) made something, etc.

Bottom line, it really don't matter, we are still a primitive race. Of greed and stupidity, ending life that took millions and billions of earth years to come to be. We destroy a perfect and still progressing organism, including ourselves with the same concern as the one we have for breathing. We are the human race, stupid, and full of greed.

Our only hope is that by the hand of our precious universe, our future generations will be better. Better to everyone and everything. Much better than us.

PetersCreek
2011-Mar-16, 04:55 AM
Welcome to the BAUT forums, JRoos. As we discussed, I've moved your thread to the Against The Mainstream forum, so it is now subject to the provision of rule 13. Enjoy!

Shaula
2011-Mar-16, 06:33 AM
Speak for yourself, I'm great!

More seriously - if you don't do theories and formula then your ideas are scientifically useless. Science is about predictions. As far as I can tell you are saying that there was something pre-Big Bang. Science is actually neutral on this because our models have broken down before we get to that point. So far there is no evidence and no framework to explain what happened before a certain point in time (which is after the point taken to be the Big Bang event). Until there is then it is just speculation. Our models tell us that the universe evolved from a very hot, dense, compact state into what we see today. That's about it. There are hints and ideas floating around but nothing that has any strong observational support.

Jamotron
2011-Mar-16, 06:56 AM
....
All that you seem to think is so common sense comes from centuries of human learning. Don't be so narcissistic as to think you can shrug away the importance of science and math by watching some TV shows.

novaderrik
2011-Mar-16, 09:36 AM
All that you seem to think is so common sense comes from centuries of human learning. Don't be so narcissistic as to think you can shrug away the importance of science and math by watching some TV shows.

but what about Youtube videos? surely those should be considered the ultimate truth when looking for answers to all the big questions.

John Mendenhall
2011-Mar-16, 04:19 PM
OP, if you agree that you are presenting an ATM idea, could you please tell us what it is, in your words?

Strange
2011-Mar-16, 05:47 PM
Before the chit-chatting session we should really consider our current living situation.

Why? Seems like irrelevant waffle to me...


Math VS. Common Sense.

"Common sense" tells us a lot of things that are wrong. How do you decide which are right and which wrong? I would recommedn the scientific method and ... math.


I don't do much formulas and theories I listen and make judgments.

And how do you make your judgments without the math? And why should I accept your common sense or intuition against that of the guy next door who says something different?


Without much mathematical experience we can make some theories:

You mean "hypotheses".


1. The Universe is indeed the product of another ending Universe.

Maybe. Maybe not. We would need some evidence to decide.


Because we know that things are indeed created from something.

Do we? How?


This still does not explain the beginning. No elements no light, no darkness, no space, no emptiness. That my friends is the question. We CANNOT assume the Universal cycle of doom-and-gloom has just been forever. Because we know that things are indeed created from something. Something before, and something else before that. Something before, and something else before that. So what came before the first B.B.; why everything.

What does that mean? There was a beginning? Or there wasn't?


IN ONE THOUSAND YEARS WE FOUND OUT EVERYTHING, or most of what there is to know about our universe

I think that is a bit optimistic.


Bottom line, it really don't matter, we are still a primitive race. Of greed and stupidity, ending life that took millions and billions of earth years to come to be. We destroy a perfect and still progressing organism, including ourselves with the same concern as the one we have for breathing. We are the human race, stupid, and full of greed.

Our only hope is that by the hand of our precious universe, our future generations will be better. Better to everyone and everything. Much better than us.

And what does that mean? And how on earth is it relevant?

JRoos
2011-Mar-16, 10:37 PM
It ain't shruging away science, I am extremely grateful for the people in prior generations who spent most of their lives figuring out what we know and use today to learn more. Im just saying for a topic such as the origin of the universe it seemed very likely that the answer would have been a prior. But they used mathematical procedures, and pretty much said they solved the problem and thats it.

chinglu1998
2011-Mar-16, 10:38 PM
I don't do much formulas and theories I listen and make judgments. Everybody else does the hard work. Not fair, but useful.

Without much mathematical experience we can make some theories:

1. The Universe is indeed the product of another ending Universe.


I do not mind if you use math, but can you explain 1?

JRoos
2011-Mar-16, 10:48 PM
And we are all very happy that you are great, you deserve everything and more.

Science maybe neutral on the statement but some scientist are trying to perhaps change that. From what I saw, the current mathematical procedures ect. do not solve the problem. So according to mathematical rules and regulations they made new math. And got an answer.

"Science is about predictions". I wouldnt say so. Science helps understand to extreme detail the current. If you ment predictions regarding future events.

JRoos
2011-Mar-16, 10:51 PM
The end of the expansion of a universe, mass compression, and then expansion again.

JRoos
2011-Mar-16, 11:00 PM
Why? Seems like irrelevant waffle to me...

Thats what I mean.

And how do you make your judgments without the math? And why should I accept your common sense or intuition against that of the guy next door who says something different?

You dont have to accept anything, just think about it and make your own assumption. The answer that you come up with will be determined by the time you spend looking for it.


Do we? How?

We know most things are the result a prior event, either in a smaller or larger scale. It changes the past into current. Like how this planet was formed.



What does that mean? There was a beginning? Or there wasn't?



I think that is a bit optimistic.



And what does that mean? And how on earth is it relevant?[/QUOTE]

JRoos
2011-Mar-16, 11:10 PM
And what does that mean? And how on earth is it relevant?

We have killed many forms of life during our time here. Not all for our benefit.

We can find out millions of planets, the beggining of life, and trillions of other unkowns; but it wont really change a thing.

Meaning people will not change until the universe does it for us. We will still be full of greed and pretend nothing around us is actually our responsability. We did jack it all up.

PetersCreek
2011-Mar-16, 11:50 PM
JRoos,

It would be extremely helpful if you would use the quote function in order to identify to whom you are replying and to differentiate your statements from the statements of others.

JustAFriend
2011-Mar-17, 01:39 AM
IN ONE THOUSAND YEARS WE FOUND OUT EVERYTHING, or most of what there is to know about our universe (about what we can see visually or through machine).

Unlike the guy who suggested shutting down the Patent Office because 'everything had already been invented' (and that was before the Wright brothers flew), I sorta think we know very little and future generations will laugh at most of our theories of cosmology the way we laugh at ancient folk who thought the world was carried on the backs of giant turtles.


We did jack it all up.

When you consider the miniscule volume we take up on on tiny planet circling one nondescript star in a minor arm of a mediocre galaxy in the entire vastness of what small part of the Universe we can barely detect, our impact on that Universe,let alone any others, isn't even calculable...

John Mendenhall
2011-Mar-17, 02:09 AM
The end of the expansion of a universe, mass compression, and then expansion again.

Have to go with Shaula on this. There's just not enough information to know. There is some recent work about patterns in the cosmic background radiation, but ifrc it hasn't been confirmed.

Geo Kaplan
2011-Mar-17, 02:20 AM
Unlike the guy who suggested shutting down the Patent Office because 'everything had already been invented' (and that was before the Wright brothers flew), ....

Turns out to be an urban legend. No one ever actually suggested any such thing, as it happens.

Geo Kaplan
2011-Mar-17, 02:28 AM
And we are all very happy that you are great, you deserve everything and more.

Science maybe neutral on the statement but some scientist are trying to perhaps change that. From what I saw, the current mathematical procedures ect. do not solve the problem. So according to mathematical rules and regulations they made new math. And got an answer.

"Science is about predictions". I wouldnt say so. Science helps understand to extreme detail the current. If you ment predictions regarding future events.

I suggest reading up a bit on what constitutes the scientific method. It's manifestly not about just making stuff up. A scientific theory makes testable predictions that are subject to experimental verification or falsification, in addition to explaining known phenomena. Mathematics is an important tool, eg, in figuring out what those predictions are, but math alone is not sufficient.

That's why science (but not necessarily individual scientists) is currently silent on what came before the Big Bang (indeed, it is actually silent about the BB itself). We have no experimental evidence that constrains our theories, for one thing. All we can say is that, from the current set of observations we have made, the laws of physics as we presently know them allow us to extrapolate backward in time from the present era to some absurdly small interval after the putative bang. In short, we are able to describe, in a self-consistent manner that is also in accord with the body of experimental evidence, the evolution of the universe from that time onward.

Jamotron
2011-Mar-17, 02:38 AM
"Science is about predictions". I wouldnt say so. Science helps understand to extreme detail the current. If you ment predictions regarding future events.A good theory should make testable predictions. They wouldn't be much use if they didn't.

Shaula
2011-Mar-17, 08:09 PM
It ain't shruging away science, I am extremely grateful for the people in prior generations who spent most of their lives figuring out what we know and use today to learn more. Im just saying for a topic such as the origin of the universe it seemed very likely that the answer would have been a prior. But they used mathematical procedures, and pretty much said they solved the problem and thats it.
The trouble is that by saying "a prior" you just push the problem back. What made the prior? That explanation doesn't solve the problem. So that is most certainly not it. Think you may have seen a popular science program on this? They often give erroneously self-congratulatory views on things - I guess because people want certainty from science. They want to feel that we, as a species, know stuff. Not that we live inside a mystery.

By predictions, BTW, I meant that science is about predicting the results of the measurements you will make. Not magically knowing the future but being able to say, for example, that on average one in every million squirrelinos will decay into a badgeron. Theories are often formed by fitting to current data but only become really exciting when they predict the outcome of experiments you haven't done.

rebel
2011-Mar-27, 11:18 PM
That's why science (but not necessarily individual scientists) is currently silent on what came before the Big Bang (indeed, it is actually silent about the BB itself). We have no experimental evidence that constrains our theories, for one thing. All we can say is that, from the current set of observations we have made, the laws of physics as we presently know them allow us to extrapolate backward in time from the present era to some absurdly small interval after the putative bang. In short, we are able to describe, in a self-consistent manner that is also in accord with the body of experimental evidence, the evolution of the universe from that time onward.

Sorry Geo, science is currently silent because the science that they have doesn't add up. The even had to come up with dark energy just to put more numbers in their equations to make it somewhat work. Physicists including Hawkings can't use the same "law" on the big as they use on the small. Physics has only confused itself up to this date. Not saying that many cool things haven't been discovered with better and better equipment, but the answers to the basic questions are father away than they have ever been.

That includes the BB. Science, without a doubt, has understood that E=mc^2. Witch means energy came from something and mass came from something. JRoos is just asking where did it come from if there was nothing to start with, or if there was something to start with where did it come from.

pzkpfw
2011-Mar-28, 02:49 AM
rebel, if you wish to start a discussion on this, feel free to start your own ATM thread (assuming you haven't already had 30 days on it). Do not hijack this one. Geo Kaplan was responding to the member who began this thread.