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View Full Version : Universe as infinity and not a certain age, a no big bang no creation theory



Jet Wave
2011-Apr-10, 03:13 AM
So this idea of mine came to me when I was reading a book for my philosophy knowledge and reality class and I would like see what you guys have to say about it. If someone else has already proposed this idea i apologize. This also has some philosophical notion to it, so...yep here I go...

My theory or hypothesis

Think of infinity. With infinity we have no start and no end. We are not able to put a set point on infinity, we are only able to understand the concept, one thing after another forever, positive and negative (-infinity and +infinity). the best example of this would be infinity of integers in math. We can pick out a set point in the middle but can never get to the end or beginning. There are things in the world we as humans are not able to put a number or set point on. In math the concept of infinity, time as infinity, the universe as infinity (as in spatial distance).

Now this is where I start with philosophical terms for a little bit. In philosophy many would argue that to have an effect would would always need a cause. Cause and then effect. As humans we have this idea, this effect, of infinity in our brains, but where did that come from? One would argue that there must have been something to create that idea.

My idea is that the universe is infinity. It is infinite in time and it is infinite in space.
This is where we have humans have garnered this idea.

Time:
We are used the theory of the big bang where something came from nothing and created the universe. My idea would be that, no, we(the universe), didn't come from nothing, we have been here the whole time. Time as we know it has no beginning and has no end (although many scientists say they can tell how many years the universe has been around, yet they have no hard evidence) it is infinite. We have no way to tell the beginning and no way to tell the end, that is because time is infinite. Forever into the past and forever into the future. With the universe being infinite in time this opens the possibility of life and other possibilities. The quote "given an infinite amount of time, every thing that can happen, will happen" life is an example of what can happen with infinite time. This gives us with an unlimited amount of time and unlimited possibilities that the production of organized stuff such as stars and planets and eventually life is created.

With a set starting point of the universe and set time period we have a much less possibility of these things forming and we are stuck on how it was started in the first place. If we were to look at the universe as time infinite that would erase the explanation of a creator or big bang, because the answer would be we(the universe) has been here forever, and with infinite time the possibilities would occur.

Space(l*w*h)
The universe as spatially infinite is something scientists are already aware of today. They talk about expansion of the universe, and this would be easily seen if there was no end, which there isn't if because it is infinite.

Side note on life and evolution
Once life would have been started from a random possibility it would have been a downhill sloping path towards more and more complex beings. Sort of like a snowball rolling down a hill, it gathers more snow and builds of what is already there. Once that first life form is randomly created in possibility new life will build off previous life. This can be seen in how similar our DNA is to other creatures. This is already a known theory of the single cell ancestry. As we grow to more complex life, we tend to grow faster and faster evolutionary wise. Take into example that famous picture of us growing from monkey to ape to man and think of the differences and how fast they change once we built of what we previously had. As monkeys it took a very long time to gain knowledge, but as intelligent man we have created technology and we use that technology to build greater technology and increase our knowledge and we continue to grow exponentially. We build off lesser complex things to more complex things. We grow exponentially.



A basic summary
The universe is infinite in space and time, meaning it has existed forever and will continue to exist forever. There is no start of the universe because it has always been here. And the universe is infinite in space and continues forever, meaning there is no end and there is no beginning.



I would like to hear your guys response to this. Please have an open mind and consider the possibility and think about it. There is a lot to explain and it would take a full length paper to write so this is just very basic. Please don't bash just because it doesn't agree with your ideas. Please excuse my english too, english is my 2nd language.

Shaula
2011-Apr-10, 07:02 AM
You say we have no hard evidence. What do you define as hard evidence? We have a set of models that explain our observations pretty well. For example: we have the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR). We have the ratios of isotopes in the universe (nucleosynthesis). We have the expansion of space. We have galaxy ans star formation.

Some questions:
1) Stars live and die. In living they transmute lighter elements into heavier ones. In an infinite universe there must be a mechanism for these light elements to be recycled from said 'stellar ashes'. What is this mechanism and what evidence would you expect to see to account for this?
2) Where are all the cinders? Stars eventually end up as black dwarves, dead neutron stars or black holes. We do not see an infinity of microlensing events caused by them. What mechanism do you propose to sweep them up? What evidence would you expect to see to account for this?
3) You do know that before the Big Bang theory we did think the universe was eternal? And that the Big Bang theory was a revolution in thought only accepted after very, very rigorous testing and a lot of resistance. It was adopted because it fitted the evidence available the best, as is the case for all mainstream physics theories.

We are not stuck on how things started by the way. We have good approximate models for most of what you are talking about. The very start was a mystery as current theories break down but we are working on that. And given our track record something will come through. Even if it is not what we expect or hope for and requires us to start over with the models.

Another point - humans also have a lot of other abstract ideas in their head (imaginary numbers, void, electron hole, phonon, field, wave, fundamental particle, perfect world). Why do some of these need something out there to put that idea into our heads and others don't? Some of these ideas are simplifications (or idealisations) of an object (like wave, particle) and so why can this not be true of infinity? Infinity is a human derived idealisation of what the universe seems like to them because of how short our lives are and how small we are with respect to the universe. The human mind is quite capable of thinking in such a way as to come up with something that doesn't exist or is an abstruse concept. We created the idea of phlogiston without it being out there after all!

captain swoop
2011-Apr-10, 09:16 AM
Jet Wave Welcome to BAUT, please take some time to read the rules for posting and advice for ATM Posters. Both are linked at the bottom of this post.

slang
2011-Apr-10, 10:14 AM
Side note on life and evolution
Once life would have been started from a random possibility it would have been a downhill sloping path towards more and more complex beings. Sort of like a snowball rolling down a hill, it gathers more snow and builds of what is already there. Once that first life form is randomly created in possibility new life will build off previous life. This can be seen in how similar our DNA is to other creatures. This is already a known theory of the single cell ancestry.

Not "a" know theory.. depending on the details, this is the known scientific theory. There are no others.


As we grow to more complex life, we tend to grow faster and faster evolutionary wise.

No, that isn't correct, at least not as a universal principle. There have been some periods when evolution has "gone faster", but those are associated with a few crucial changes in biology, and mass extinctions. For example, when sexual reproduction entered the picture there was more change possible than before. When the dinos were gone it opened up possibilities for mammals.


Take into example that famous picture of us growing from monkey to ape to man and think of the differences and how fast they change once we built of what we previously had. As monkeys it took a very long time to gain knowledge, but as intelligent man we have created technology and we use that technology to build greater technology and increase our knowledge and we continue to grow exponentially. We build off lesser complex things to more complex things. We grow exponentially.

Our (human) technology does. Other species don't. This growth has nothing to do with evolution, at least not in the biological sense. (BTW that picture is terrible: we didn't "grow from monkeys", we share common ancestors. That may sound like its the same thing, but it isn't.)

Perikles
2011-Apr-10, 10:30 AM
On a very simple level: Do you accept the physical evidence of red shift, interpreted as expansion of the universe?

If not, how do you explain red shift?

If you do accept this explanation of red shift, with universe and time both infinite, how is it that we see anything at all? Why isn't everything already infinitely distant?

Geo Kaplan
2011-Apr-10, 01:12 PM
Think of infinity. With infinity we have no start and no end. We are not able to put a set point on infinity, {snip}

You have apparently overlooked that an infinitely long line can have a definite beginning. Does this not affect your chain of reasoning?

John Mendenhall
2011-Apr-13, 01:05 AM
As I understand it, very high redshift galaxies appear larger than similar low redshift galaxies, due to the increase in the size of the universe since the BB. How does your theory explain this?

sirjon
2011-Apr-13, 04:44 AM
You have apparently overlooked that an infinitely long line can have a definite beginning. Does this not affect your chain of reasoning?

I definitely agree w/ Geo Kaplan, an INFINITE RAY... meaning, somewhere in the past, the Universe could had a beginning.