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DangerousDriver
2004-May-19, 06:23 PM
Hi all

[First post]

Whilst firmly belonging in the skeptic camp I can't help but wonder about the validity of the claims that today's GOES satellite images do show what, on the face of it, could be described as meteor trails.

However, I do not know what size one would have to be to register on such an image, how often meteors are captured or whether some other form of interference/malfunction are responsible.

The images can be found at: http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/sat_vis_east.html (Some clicking about required.)

The site seems to only hold 12 hours' worth of images so some have already dropped off the end. I saved some which I could post to an online gallery if desired.

One thing I noticed is that some of the images (ie "hem" ) seem to be composed of data from more than one satellite and the trails do seem to span the two images.

Any thoughts?

john

01101001
2004-May-19, 06:45 PM
The images can be found at: http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/sat_vis_east.html (Some clicking about required.)

Could you give us some hint about what to click to see what you saw? There's a lot of stuff to look at there.

Ut
2004-May-19, 06:52 PM
The -5 or -6 hr links include what I think is being discussed. There's a dotted white line which stretches across the Canadian Praries, and seems to follow a Great Circle. In the same pictures, though, there also seems to be quite a bit of noise which looks similar over the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf of Mexico region.

DangerousDriver
2004-May-19, 07:02 PM
Sure

[at 1853UTC]

http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_vis_hem-5.html

http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_vis_east-7.html
(-2 -3 & -4 are unavailable; -9-10-11 & -12 all show the same image)

http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_vis_west-6.html
http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_vis_west-8.html


There's a bunch more which are nolonger available. Let me know if you would like nme to upload tehs to an online image gallery

john

ngc3314
2004-May-19, 07:38 PM
The -5 or -6 hr links include what I think is being discussed. There's a dotted white line which stretches across the Canadian Praries, and seems to follow a Great Circle. In the same pictures, though, there also seems to be quite a bit of noise which looks similar over the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf of Mexico region.

The 1300Z image has a bunch of horizontal lines of noise which must represent data dropouts. The 1100Z image shows a broken line of bright spots across northern Mexico and southern Texas which is almost (but not quite, as far as I can tell) E-W. This might be plausible for a really big piece of re-entering debris, but not one in the default orbit for Cape Canaveral launches (since it goes at least as far north as +30, while KSC is at 28.5).

A major issue in the reality of this feature is how GOES builds up images. It uses single detectors at each frequency and a moving mirror to scan them across the Earth, so a moving object will not generally appear as a line, but as a single point as it intersects the line of scan. For details, see page 9 of
http://noaasis.noaa.gov/NOAASIS/pubs/nesdis82.PDF.
One odd thing about this streak is that it doesn't run exactly along what I'd think is a scan direction (although there could be an interaction between NS and EW scans, or a misalignment of scan axes from geographic ones - I don't see information on that possibility right away).

cyswxman
2004-May-19, 09:03 PM
I see these flaws in images all the time. They are typical. I don't know why they happen, as I am not privy to how the satellites are designed and exactly how they produce an image. Noise also can come into an image during transmission of data.

Oh, and welcome to the board, DangerousDriver! :D

dyadic
2004-May-19, 10:48 PM
OK - new here...

Since this place is considered "the" debunking place, I thought I would verify Johns post.

I too have seen these white dotted specks that go across the screen BUT.

I saw these images before they were taken down by unisys. There is a definate hard object that appears, with a cloud or shadow, then disappears into what looks like, our atmosphere well below Hawaii. This was NOT a flaw...

If John saved the loop image, and up loads it, you will most definately see it. Please John, upload the loop image so those here, who may be able to, can identify this object and let the debunking begin...

I eagerly await the responses

BAroxMysox
2004-May-20, 12:24 AM
Well, after doing some searching, I couldn't find much on what those could be, but I did find this.

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/images/ir/200405191400.gif

This is an archived image from the GOES-W satellite of this image from Unisys with the strange dot pattern.

http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_ir_west-10.html

Both are in infrared, taken at the same time from the same satellite (I believe) but the first image doesn't have the pattern.

I notice the pattern also appears in 3 different spectrums (Visual, infrared, enhanced infrared) at -10 hours on the Unisys page but in a different pattern in each, but I don't know what that could mean. I tried matching up all the images with the pattern I could find at the Unisys site (in IR and GOES-W) with the corresponding image from the atmos site, and nothing from atmos showed any patterns.

Could it be something on Unisys' side?

[Edit: Fixed up the post a bit]

dyadic
2004-May-20, 01:08 AM
found a link to the image that I saw...long load

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.net/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=2984

DangerousDriver
2004-May-20, 01:11 AM
Here's that image with the blob. I studied it a bit and put it down to blown highlights - the sun's reflection does appear to pass over that area ( animated gif - 2MB).

http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/images/sat/sat_vis_hem_loop-12[1].gif

Some others in no particular order:

http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem1215z190504.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem1145z190504.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem1230z190504.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem1300z190504.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem1400z190504.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem[1].gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_ir_hem[1].gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_east_loop-12_2.gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_ir_enh_hem[1].gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_vis_hem-2[1].gif
http://www.thelockin.com/galleries/sat/sat_wv_hem[1].gif

It's a bit odd that some of the anomolies are straight and others curved. Also the conspirisists would likely find it suspicious that images are missing or duplicated (eg the animated gif, above, is padded with lots of 0300Z frames; the original individual frames were also all copoies of 0300Z)

john

BAroxMysox
2004-May-20, 09:17 AM
I found this, and it may explain why the smaller images on Unisys have these artifacts, but the corresponding hi-res images at the atmos site do not. Although, I don't know if this is the explanation.


These are image compression artifacts. Many of the images we put online are in JPEG format, which uses what is called a "lossy" image compression method. What this means is that the JPEG format does not try to perfectly reproduce the original image, and image errors or artifacts can and do occur. In the case of our satellite images, these distortions near the map lines occur because the JPEG algorithm has problems with the sharp boundary between the gray-scale satellite image and the brightly colored map lines.

This comes from http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/faq.html

genebujold
2004-May-20, 01:34 PM
The -5 or -6 hr links include what I think is being discussed. There's a dotted white line which stretches across the Canadian Praries, and seems to follow a Great Circle. In the same pictures, though, there also seems to be quite a bit of noise which looks similar over the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf of Mexico region.

It's where they pieced the upper and lower image halfs together, folks. The camera doesn't take one wide-angle picture - it takes a serious of narrow-angle pictures, and the folks on the groud (or software) piece together the images.

When that happens, pixel artifacts are often introduced around the edges, particularly if there's little or no overlap. Where there is overlap (horizontal edges), there's little or not artifacts.

genebujold
2004-May-20, 01:38 PM
OK - new here...

Since this place is considered "the" debunking place, I thought I would verify Johns post.

I too have seen these white dotted specks that go across the screen BUT.

I saw these images before they were taken down by unisys. There is a definate hard object that appears, with a cloud or shadow, then disappears into what looks like, our atmosphere well below Hawaii. This was NOT a flaw...

If John saved the loop image, and up loads it, you will most definately see it. Please John, upload the loop image so those here, who may be able to, can identify this object and let the debunking begin...

I eagerly await the responses

Most weather loops show artifacts ranging in size from a pixel to the state of Texas. When they're the size of Texas, it's clear that it's just missing data. When they're a pixel, it's ALWAYS A UFO - QUICK - RUN AND HIDE... AAHHHHHH!!!!!!

I'm kidding...

genebujold
2004-May-20, 01:43 PM
Well, after doing some searching, I couldn't find much on what those could be, but I did find this.

http://www.atmos.washington.edu/images/ir/200405191400.gif

This is an archived image from the GOES-W satellite of this image from Unisys with the strange dot pattern.

http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/previous/sat_ir_west-10.html

Both are in infrared, taken at the same time from the same satellite (I believe) but the first image doesn't have the pattern.

I notice the pattern also appears in 3 different spectrums (Visual, infrared, enhanced infrared) at -10 hours on the Unisys page but in a different pattern in each, but I don't know what that could mean. I tried matching up all the images with the pattern I could find at the Unisys site (in IR and GOES-W) with the corresponding image from the atmos site, and nothing from atmos showed any patterns.

Could it be something on Unisys' side?

[Edit: Fixed up the post a bit]

Now those dots are different. Ever hear of Latitude and Longitude? Well, instead of superimposing all 360 degrees of each, they break it out into major sections. Can't tell from the image, but if I had to guess, it would be every 15 or 30 degrees. Since it's roughly 900 miles from Seattle to San Diego, by air, that would translate into blocks 15 degrees wide and tall, and that matches the graphic.

And 15 degrees of longitude is one hour of Earth rotation, so that pretty much confirms it.

Thus, I think the original idea of it being "meteor trails" is pretty much dead.

BAroxMysox
2004-May-20, 10:08 PM
Those dots are different, yes. What I was showing is the supposed "meteor trails" or the strange dotted line pattern is missing on the first image, which was a high res copy of the smaller image that had the pattern in question.

Although the second link doesn't show the actual lines now because it updated, it may show on another image at the Unisys site. I posted a quote about artifacts when the image is compressed, so would that be a valid explanation why the dots are missing on high res photos but show on the smaller low res photos at Unisys? I don't know if those are the artifacts they're talking about, because they don't show an example at that site.