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Tuckerfan
2011-May-17, 10:55 PM
So says the author of a new book in her interview on NPR's Fresh Air. (http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356848/area-51-uncensored-was-it-ufos-or-the-ussr)
"The child-sized aviators in this craft [that crashed in New Mexico] were the result of a Soviet human experimentation program, and they had been made to look like aliens a la Orson Welles' War of the Worlds, and it was a warning shot over President Truman's bow, so to speak. In 1947, when this would have originally happened, the Soviets did not yet have the nuclear bomb, and Stalin and Truman were locked in horns with one another, and Stalin couldn't compete in nuclear weaponry yet, but he certainly could compete in the world of black propaganda and that was his aim, according to my source. ...

"What is firsthand information is that he worked with these bodies [of the pilots] and he was an eyewitness to the horror of seeing them and working with them. Where they actually came from is obviously the subject of debate. But if you look at the timeline with Josef Mengele, he left Auschwitz in January of 1945 and disappeared for a while, and the suggestion by the source is that Mengele had already cut his losses with the Third Reich at that point and was working with Stalin."Not posting this because I believe it (in fact, if you listen to the interview, you can hear the incredulity in Terry Gross' voice when this part of the book was discussed), but because its probably going to be the subject of a lot of CTs and the sooner folks smarter than me can take a whack at shooting holes in the theory, the better.

R.A.F.
2011-May-17, 11:07 PM
What's to "shoot holes" in?? There is no evidence for any of this "garbage".

Noclevername
2011-May-17, 11:13 PM
In Soviet Russia, Roswell crashes into you!

Tuckerfan
2011-May-17, 11:42 PM
What's to "shoot holes" in?? There is no evidence for any of this "garbage".

No evidence for the US faking the Moon landings, but people seem to believe it anyway.

R.A.F.
2011-May-17, 11:46 PM
No evidence for the US faking the Moon landings, but people seem to believe it anyway.

Belief is irrelevant...evidence isn't.

Tuckerfan
2011-May-18, 12:19 AM
Belief is irrelevant...evidence isn't.

If that's the case, then why do we have a whole forum dedicated to debunking the belief?

R.A.F.
2011-May-18, 12:29 AM
To allow those who believe in such things the opportunity to prove themselves correct...with evidence.

Tuckerfan
2011-May-18, 01:20 AM
To allow those who believe in such things the opportunity to prove themselves correct...with evidence.

None of which contradicts why I started this thread. Much better to know your opponents arguments ahead of time.

Swift
2011-May-18, 01:38 AM
Enough discussion about the appropriateness of the thread; it is within the rules (quoted below).

11. The CT forum may also be used for the critical analysis of websites that advocate specific astronomy and space related conspiracies.
It might not be a website advocating a CT, but it is a book that does so.

R.A.F.
2011-May-18, 01:43 AM
OK...personally, I just find it a bit distasteful taking "pot shots" at peoples ideas when they are not actually here to defend those ideas....but I'll get over it. :)

theNater
2011-May-18, 02:44 AM
The child-sized aviators in this craft [that crashed in New Mexico] were the result of a Soviet human experimentation program, and they had been made to look like aliens a la Orson Welles' War of the Worlds...
This is the first thing that grabbed me. I found a script of Orson Welles' War of the Worlds online. This is how it describes the creatures:

Good heavens, something's wriggling out of the shadow like a gray snake. Now it's another one, and another. They look like tentacles to me. There, I can see the thing's body. It's large, large as a bear and it glistens like wet leather. But that face, it . . . Ladies and gentlemen, it's indescribable. I can hardly force myself to keep looking at it. The eyes are black and gleam like a serpent. The mouth is V-shaped with saliva dripping from its rimless lips that seem to quiver and pulsate.
I'm not sure how the "child-sized aviators" were made to look like aliens that were "large, large as a bear". Does this author ever explain that, or did she just assume that the aliens in War of the Worlds look like the current popular conception of aliens?

Noclevername
2011-May-18, 03:00 AM
She may have been confusing Welles' 1938 WOTW (Where the aliens' appearance was kept much closer to H.G. Wells' original story) with the 1950s movie version, where the aliens were shown as smaller and much closer to humanoid.

theNater
2011-May-18, 03:37 AM
She may have been confusing Welles' 1938 WOTW (Where the aliens' appearance was kept much closer to H.G. Wells' original story) with the 1950s movie version, where the aliens were shown as smaller and much closer to humanoid.
That might be believable if not for the implication that the aviators were intentionally made to look like the fictional aliens. It's not really workable for 1947 aviators to be modeled on a 1953 movie.

Was the representation of aliens as small humanoids common in the mid-forties? What really popularized that depiction?

Noclevername
2011-May-18, 03:40 AM
"Little green men" with big heads was a truism as far back as the 1930s pulp-scifi era.

Noclevername
2011-May-18, 03:44 AM
That might be believable if not for the implication that the aviators were intentionally made to look like the fictional aliens. It's not really workable for 1947 aviators to be modeled on a 1953 movie.


No, it isn't. But it is workable for a modern author to mistakenly assume that they were, especially if she confused the two works.

Daggerstab
2011-May-18, 06:36 AM
...but because its probably going to be the subject of a lot of CTs and the sooner folks smarter than me can take a whack at shooting holes in the theory, the better.

The CTs are not terribly impressed by it either:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread703620/pg1
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1489727/pg1
If AboveTopSecret and GodlikeProductions find your conspiracy theory ridiculous...

The author of the book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annie_Jacobsen

tnjrp
2011-May-18, 06:47 AM
Extraterrestrial hypothesis proponents are often quite touchy about anyone doubting their precious UFOs... :whistle:

---


No, it isn't. But it is workable for a modern author to mistakenly assume that they were, especially if she confused the two works.According to WikiPedia,
The first documented print example specifically linking "little green men" to extraterrestrial spaceships is in a newspaper column satirizing the public panic following Orson Welles' famous War of the Worlds Halloween broadcast of October 31, 1938. The column by reporter Bill Barnard in the Corpus Christi Times the next day begins, "Thirteen little green men from Mercury stepped out of their space ship at Cliff Maus Field [local airport] late yesterday afternoon for a good-will visit to Corpus Christi" and ends with, "Then the 13 little green men got in their space ship and flew away."[4] The familiarity with which the term was used suggests that this probably wasn't the first instance where it was applied to extraterrestrials in spaceships

So it's conceivable that Jacobsen has been thinking of that or other articles like this instead of the actual wording from the radio play. Perchance Stalin was an avid reader of the Corpus Christi Times as well ;)

OTOH if one wants to be really pedantic, Jacobsen's turn of phrase doesn't seem to absolutely necessarily say that the aliens were made to look like the aliens in WOTW. She might just be saying that they were made to look like aliens in the spirit of WOTW.

ETA: one also notes that, unless Jacobsen posits Mengele used some sort of accelerated growth methods, he would've been working on the "pseudo-aliens" at about 1934 at the latest. History of the mid-20th-century looks to be in need of some rewriting...

CJSF
2011-May-18, 11:36 AM
Wouldn't being able to genetically engineer these "aviators" take considerably more science and technology in the 1940s than developing "the bomb" or even a space program?

CJSF

ABR.
2011-May-18, 03:43 PM
The author was on the Daily Show last night. Video at this link (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-17-2011/annie-jacobsen).

Gillianren
2011-May-18, 04:13 PM
OTOH if one wants to be really pedantic, Jacobsen's turn of phrase doesn't seem to absolutely necessarily say that the aliens were made to look like the aliens in WOTW. She might just be saying that they were made to look like aliens in the spirit of WOTW.

And Stalin just confused New Mexico and New Jersey, clearly. An easy mistake. Happens all the time.

I saw the woman on The Daily Show last night, and I wasn't impressed. In the middle of a book which apparently deals seriously with such things as the known OSHA violations (who do you complain to when the place you work at "doesn't exist"?), she has inserted a piece of "information" which she's taken a single source's word for. Said source is also the only anonymous one in the book. Even my roommate wanted me to clarify that "disc-shaped craft" are inherently a bad choice to send halfway around the world, so there's a whole list of reasons this woman has so killed my interest in her book that I'm not even going to get it from the library.

theNater
2011-May-18, 05:01 PM
OTOH if one wants to be really pedantic, Jacobsen's turn of phrase doesn't seem to absolutely necessarily say that the aliens were made to look like the aliens in WOTW. She might just be saying that they were made to look like aliens in the spirit of WOTW.
Yeah, the phrasing's a little ambiguous. Unless we get clarification somehow, we should probably assume she meant this, and was referring to the film. However, the fact that her phrasing is unclear here makes me wonder what other things don't mean what they superficially seem to.

For example, when she starts talking about Mengele. Did her source suggest that Mengele had a hand in the condition of those bodies? All she actually says is that her source suggested that Mengele was working for Stalin, but there's an implication in the phrasing there. Is that her speculation, or her source's?

I'm reluctant to move forward in this discussion without more than just a couple of sound bites from interviews; the chance of mistaking what she's trying to say just seems too high.

Noclevername
2011-May-18, 05:14 PM
Wouldn't being able to genetically engineer these "aviators" take considerably more science and technology in the 1940s than developing "the bomb" or even a space program?

CJSF

I think the implication was more about surgical alterations and hormone injections, that sort of thing, not genetic engineering-- the structure of DNA was unknown at the time.

swampyankee
2011-May-19, 12:12 AM
Leaving the little Zeta Reticulans out of this, I would think that the Soviets could have engendered more than a bit of panic among the aeronautical community by actually getting one of those disks to fly, let alone maneuver as well as it was claimed (instant 90 degree turns? hover to hypersonic in seconds?).

Here's my reasoning for this:
1) A competent medical examiner or anatomist could determine that the faux aliens were mutilated children, even before the possibility of DNA evidence, or the use of isotope ratios.
2) Nobody, in 1947, could build the sort of craft the aliens were flying about in. If the Soviets could build a flying saucer for a hoax, it would imply the sort of technological and industrial lead that would result in a hammer and sickle being added to the US flag.

tnjrp
2011-May-19, 05:46 AM
I think it's unfair to assume (based on what knowledge of her claims I have so far anyway) that Jacobsen is trying to explain all UFO sightings away with this...

---


And Stalin just confused New Mexico and New Jersey, clearly. An easy mistake. Happens all the time.New Jersey, New Mexico, New York... There's "New" in the name and it's in USAnia. Same difference ;)

Anyhow, Generalissimus Josif, not having the power to grant his faux-UFO the actual (as per ETH proponents) space alien capabilities to avoid detection whenever it suits them so it stands to reason (insofar as one wants to entertain this "USSR hypothesis") to assume he would've relied a relative easy backdoor route via Mexico.

Noclevername
2011-May-19, 05:59 AM
The Russians put a small silver balloon on wires and had it yanked around the sky, thus giving the illusion that it was a large craft making inertia-defying moves. Embarrassed that its citizens had been so easily fooled, the U.S. staged a coverup by calling it a weather balloon. The "bodies" seen were the head-bagged migrant workers who had been hired by Russian spies to pull the wires, who were "disappeared" by the C.I.A.

Or perhaps not. ;)

tnjrp
2011-May-19, 06:03 AM
I think the implication was more about surgical alterations and hormone injections, that sort of thing, not genetic engineering-- the structure of DNA was unknown at the time. Dr. M would've needed to be ahead of the official curve by at least some 20 years to be able to actually seriously geneer the supposed pilots 'cuz even tho they knew something was passing the inherited traits on since late 1920's the culprit (DNA) was officially identified only in the mid-1940's. But maybe he just came up with test subjects who looked like LGMs by accident and Stalin whisked them all away to Russia to use as faux-aliens? Or, again, maybe not.

Gillianren
2011-May-19, 06:53 AM
I think it's unfair to assume (based on what knowledge of her claims I have so far anyway) that Jacobsen is trying to explain all UFO sightings away with this...

Certainly that does not seem to be the case. However, she's willing to accept the story on extremely scanty evidence, so I shudder to think what she thinks caused other UFO sightings.

tnjrp
2011-May-19, 06:57 AM
Yep, it's not exactly like she looks to be a paragon of source critisism.

gzhpcu
2011-May-19, 11:31 AM
Just another person getting on the Roswelll bandwagon to make a couple of bucks... not that dumb... :)

Selenite
2011-May-19, 12:33 PM
According to most evidence Josef Mengele spent the immediate postwar years working as a farmhand in a small village near Rosenheim, Bavaria, staying in contact with his wife and his old friend Hans Sedlmeier, who arranged Mengele's escape to Argentina via Innsbruck, Sterzing, Meran, and Genoa.

Hollywood films like Boys from Brazil and Marathon Man have created the image of a super-scientist Mengele, surrounded by killer dogs and armed guards, methodically creating a biological Fourth Reich with the plundered millions he had taken in escaping from Europe. The real Mengele lived a simple life, on isolated farms and then in a rundown neighborhood in Sao Paulo, before dying of a stroke while swimming in the ocean, in 1979, at the age of 68. As a doctor his methods were suspect, sadistic and slipshod and created virtually no useful research. I see nothing to suggest he would have been disciplined enough to genetically engineer anything. Plus, considering how many ordinary Germans never returned from camps in the Soviet union, why would they let this infamous doctor go?

Just dumb. Like I said, the author is probably just leaning on the sensationalistic Hollywood interpretation of Dr. Mengele.

Jim
2011-May-19, 05:48 PM
But if you look at the timeline with Josef Mengele, he left Auschwitz in January of 1945 and disappeared for a while, and the suggestion by the source is that Mengele had already cut his losses with the Third Reich at that point and was working with Stalin.

Oh, pshaw! Everybody except Jacobsen (and, apparently, Selenite) knows that Mengele went to Brazil, where he had plastic surgery to make himself look like Gregory Peck.

Gillianren
2011-May-19, 05:53 PM
There are worse people to make yourself look like!

swampyankee
2011-May-19, 11:50 PM
Personally, I think the gulags would be too kind a place to imprison mengele. Perhaps the frozen wastes of the Ninth Circle of Hell? The River Phlegethon?

Jim
2011-May-20, 11:52 AM
Well, there goes the neighborhood. Thanks.

Sam5
2011-May-21, 12:23 AM
Was the representation of aliens as small humanoids common in the mid-forties? What really popularized that depiction?

Munchkins, 1939.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n1dnyepCBsM/SaQdeti-F3I/AAAAAAAABQw/KboRsmEV2y0/s400/munchkinsOLD_468x348.jpg

Noclevername
2011-May-21, 04:40 AM
Munchkins, 1939.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_n1dnyepCBsM/SaQdeti-F3I/AAAAAAAABQw/KboRsmEV2y0/s400/munchkinsOLD_468x348.jpg

:lol:

Normandy
2011-Jun-18, 02:20 PM
So says the author of a new book in her interview on NPR's Fresh Air. (http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356848/area-51-uncensored-was-it-ufos-or-the-ussr)Not posting this because I believe it (in fact, if you listen to the interview, you can hear the incredulity in Terry Gross' voice when this part of the book was discussed), but because its probably going to be the subject of a lot of CTs and the sooner folks smarter than me can take a whack at shooting holes in the theory, the better.

But if you look at the timeline with Josef Mengele, he left Auschwitz in January of 1945 and disappeared for a while, and the suggestion by the source is that Mengele had already cut his losses with the Third Reich at that point and was working with Stalin.




Jesus, this is some kind of joke, right? Life is too short for even reading it further. Where do people find time for this stuff in the first place.

Swift
2011-Jun-18, 03:09 PM
Jesus, this is some kind of joke, right? Life is too short for even reading it further. Where do people find time for this stuff in the first place.
Normandy has been banned for this post. This is the fourth time in two months that he has been infracted for this trollish behavior of pointless rude posts in UFO threads.

HareDye
2011-Jun-25, 04:01 PM
Leaving the little Zeta Reticulans out of this, I would think that the Soviets could have engendered more than a bit of panic among the aeronautical community by actually getting one of those disks to fly, let alone maneuver as well as it was claimed (instant 90 degree turns? hover to hypersonic in seconds?).

Here's my reasoning for this:
1) A competent medical examiner or anatomist could determine that the faux aliens were mutilated children, even before the possibility of DNA evidence, or the use of isotope ratios.
2) Nobody, in 1947, could build the sort of craft the aliens were flying about in. If the Soviets could build a flying saucer for a hoax, it would imply the sort of technological and industrial lead that would result in a hammer and sickle being added to the US flag.

It's obvious that you haven't read the book, in fact seemingly none of you have, yet that hasn't stopped you from ripping it to shreds.

Way to go.

I have read it and in fact the Nazis were building just that sort of craft during WWII, so saying that it was impossible to build it in 1947 is laughable.

As for medical examiners and whatnot, again, try reading the book before you spout off such nonsense. The bodies were taken away by the military before any civilian medical exam was possible.

Garrison
2011-Jun-25, 04:46 PM
It's obvious that you haven't read the book, in fact seemingly none of you have, yet that hasn't stopped you from ripping it to shreds.

Way to go.

I also haven't read any books on geocentrism or flat earth theories, some things are just too obviously wrong to spend time.


I have read it and in fact the Nazis were building just that sort of craft during WWII, so saying that it was impossible to build it in 1947 is laughable.


If you want to know what the 3rd Reich was doing in aerospace during WWII I heartily recommend 'Last Talons of the Eagle' (http://www.amazon.com/Last-Talons-Eagle-Technology-Changed/dp/074725964X) or if you prefer an online resource try Luft '46 (http://www.luft46.com/). Either is pretty comprehensive about the subject and both are fascinating reading. To put it another way please don't assume that the rest of us are speaking from ignorance.


As for medical examiners and whatnot, again, try reading the book before you spout off such nonsense. The bodies were taken away by the military before any civilian medical exam was possible.

The claim of bodies has been discussed many times before and it suffers from one basic problem, it only emerges in versions of the Roswell story offered up decades after the event, and the various claims don't jibe with one another.

Daggerstab
2011-Jun-25, 05:39 PM
1) A competent medical examiner or anatomist could determine that the faux aliens were mutilated children, even before the possibility of DNA evidence, or the use of isotope ratios.


As for medical examiners and whatnot, again, try reading the book before you spout off such nonsense. The bodies were taken away by the military before any civilian medical exam was possible.

swampyankee was talking about what would have happened if the craft hadn't crashed.

(What is the correct grammatical construction for "hypothetical situation in a fictional past"? It's been some time since I actively studied English.)

swampyankee
2011-Jun-25, 05:47 PM
It's obvious that you haven't read the book, in fact seemingly none of you have, yet that hasn't stopped you from ripping it to shreds.

Way to go.

I have read it and in fact the Nazis were building just that sort of craft during WWII, so saying that it was impossible to build it in 1947 is laughable.

As for medical examiners and whatnot, again, try reading the book before you spout off such nonsense. The bodies were taken away by the military before any civilian medical exam was possible.

The only flying disk that got anywhere near flight status was AVRO-Canada's in the 1950s. It was quite unstable. It also could not do 99% of what was claimed to be possible, perhaps routine, for flying saucers. The evidence for nazi flying saucers seems very slim, so I feel completely comfortable in discarding it. (Note that I've also worked in the US aerospace industry. Had the nazis succeeded in creating a supersonic flying disk, we would not be working anywhere near as hard to get a viable high-speed VTOL configuration). The one part of the book that is being criticized is one chapter based on the testimony, many decades after the events, of one man. The bulk (all?) of the discussion in this thread has come about because of that one chapter.

The chapter also fails some common-sense tests: humans mutilated in the ways suggested would be a great propaganda coup for the US (See! This is what the reds do to children!), so there would be numerous reasons to autopsy at least some of the corpses, and to publicize the results, at least if they are human1. Aircraft that could fly from the USSR to the continental US did exist, but developing an aircraft of novel configuration with a novel propulsion system is highly non-trivial.



1: And if they're not, there would be little use in publicizing them. "Aliens land in western desert!" would not be particularly beneficial in the Cold War propaganda battle, and figuring out their technology would probably more frustrating to us than that of a Victorian-era engineer, like Brunel, trying to find out how an iPad works.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Jun-25, 06:26 PM
swampyankee was talking about what would have happened if the craft hadn't crashed.

(What is the correct grammatical construction for "hypothetical situation in a fictional past"? It's been some time since I actively studied English.)
You used it correctly.

Swift
2011-Jun-25, 08:42 PM
It's obvious that you haven't read the book, in fact seemingly none of you have, yet that hasn't stopped you from ripping it to shreds.

Way to go.

I have read it and in fact the Nazis were building just that sort of craft during WWII, so saying that it was impossible to build it in 1947 is laughable.

As for medical examiners and whatnot, again, try reading the book before you spout off such nonsense. The bodies were taken away by the military before any civilian medical exam was possible.
HareDye,

First, welcome to BAUT.

Second, if you are going to advocate the claims in this book, it will be your responsibility to defend them and to answer questions about them. And you will have to do something more than "read the book". I would suggest that you might wish to review the rules of this board (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/32864-**-Rules-For-Posting-To-This-Board-**) (particularly rule 13) and the advice for Conspiracy Theory supporters (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/86593-Advice-for-Conspiracy-Theory-Supporters).

David Mc
2011-Jun-29, 06:01 PM
Not really appropriate, but why is it that nobody ever suggests that the Roswell crash was faked?

Maybe they staged it to start the UFO craze and cover up their hi-tech experiments.
Evil government is evil government. Right?

Gillianren
2011-Jun-29, 06:43 PM
People do suggest that. People suggest any fool thing you can imagine when they find reality too boring.