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Phobos
2002-May-01, 11:07 PM
After a split in 1991, Jounalists of the official newspaper of the Communist Party of the USSR (Pravda), formed an Online version of the newspaper.

On the 30th of April they published the following article;

Pravda Online Link (http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/04/30/28149.html)

The article claims that a discovery has been made which if correct would be the oldest map ever made.

If that was all there was to the claim then it would have no place on this board. That would be the case were it not for the reported age of the map - 120 million years old!

120 million years ago our planet was a very different place, and so was our species. The article claims that named and qualified scientists have found "indisputable proofs of an ancient highly developed civilization".

Given the reported extreme age of the maps, and the claimed scientific crudentials of those involved I thought it might be interesting to bring the claim to the attention of this board.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-05-01 19:09 ]</font>

Wiley
2002-May-01, 11:19 PM
Claims of "indisputable proof" is a red flag. I think I will add it to the list (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=163&forum=1&start=15).

Of course, since pravda means truth, it must be true, right?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wiley on 2002-05-01 19:21 ]</font>

Phobos
2002-May-02, 12:07 AM
Although I have only performed minimal checks on their claims it all looks very sus to me. From the small amout of checking up that I have done so far I can find very little to back up their claims.

Phobos

Jigsaw
2002-May-02, 03:14 AM
Geez, guys, I can't believe you're even starting to consider this seriously. I mean, geez, come ON. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

During one of Chuvyrov’s trips to the village, ex-chairman of the local agricultural council, Vladimir Krainov, came to him...and said: “Are you searching for some stone stabs? I have a strange stab in my yard.”
Gee, how fortuitous, that this big-shot scientist is looking for stone slabs with carvings on them, and this local official "just happens" to have a stone slab with carving on it.

This couldn't be, like, a hoax or something, now could it? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

It should be noticed, - the professor said, - that the relief has not been manually made by an ancient stonecutter. It is simply impossible. It is obvious that the stone was machined.” X-ray photographs confirmed that the stab was of artificial origin and has been made with some precision tools.
Yes, of course it's obvious that it was "machined". It's a slab of dolomite limestone, which is soft and easy to carve, that someone has carved a relief map into--but in the 1990s, not in 120,000,000 B.C.

Anyway, here's another version of the story, in much more readable English. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.therussianissues.com/topics/55/02/04/02/14403.html

Jigsaw
2002-May-02, 03:17 AM
For 10 bonus points, compare and contrast with the Kensington Runestone.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/6726/kensington/kensington.htm

GrapesOfWrath
2002-May-02, 07:55 AM
On 2002-05-01 23:14, Jigsaw wrote:
Anyway, here's another version of the story, in much more readable English. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.therussianissues.com/topics/55/02/04/02/14403.html


Let's see, they find two shells on its surface, one 50 my old, the other 120 my old, and decide that the second one is the one to use to date the slab? That's interesting.

They go looking for 200 slabs in the Urals, mentioned in local legend, which they are now certain consist together of a map of the world, but they only find one piece so far--and it happens to be the piece containing the map of the Urals! Also interesting.

Oops. I just read the original article. The first shell is 500 my old, so now it makes a bit more sense. They assume that one was incorporated as a fossil, though. Why not the other, I'm not sure...

Another interesting fact is that the lead researcher had found another piece of the puzzle--it just happened to be on his desk, a small reproduction in a different material. This is one lucky guy.

<font size=-1>[Added Oops, changed has to had]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GrapesOfWrath on 2002-05-02 11:10 ]</font>

ToSeek
2002-May-02, 02:56 PM
On 2002-05-01 19:19, Wiley wrote:

Of course, since pravda means truth, it must be true, right?


There was a saying in the old Soviet Union:

Pravda nyet pravda.

(Nyet means "no" or "not").

Bob
2002-May-02, 06:42 PM
Old Soviet Joke:
The two main news organizations in the Soviet Union were Pravda(Truth) and Izvestia (News) which were rigidly controlled. A common joke was "There is no Izvestia in Pravda and no Pravda in Izvestia."

The Curtmudgeon
2002-May-02, 07:33 PM
Certainly, the fact that it's in Pravda is a <font color=red>red</font> flag. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, there's a few other strange points in the article:



At first, we could not imagine the map was so ancient. Happily, relief of today’s Bashkiria has not changed so much within millions of years. We could identify Ufa Height, while Ufa Canyon is the main point of our proofs, because we carried out geological studies and found its track where it must be according to the ancient map. Displacement of the canyon happened because of tectonic stabs which moved from East.

The two bolded points, while not completely contradictory, are hard to rationalise together.



Chuvyrov, however, states he has deciphered one sign on the map: it signifies latitude of today’s city of Ufa.

Gee, all that in one sign? When they can't determine the meaning of any other of the signs? And what measurement system did the Ancient Cartographer use, anyway? Babylonian 60-based degrees, minutes and seconds of arc? I think not.

Anyway, I'm officially not losing any sleep over this one. Von Daniken and Sitchin fans can have it, and welcome.

The (not to mention...no, I won't mention him) Curtmudgeon

jec96
2002-Jun-06, 11:01 PM
The question is...was the stone wrapped in the Shroud of Turin?

Phobos
2002-Jun-06, 11:14 PM
There have been more developments recently.

Pravda Online have just released This Article (http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/06/05/29825.html)

As to the question as to why the piece found seem to map the area it was found in - well there is a possible logical explanation.

If the full map consisted of many pieces, then it would seem logical to assume that the piece which would be most important to the locals would be the one which related to the local region. Therefore if this piece was prized more than the others, then you would expect it to be the last one lost, and the one easiest to find (assuming that is they were not all lost at the same time).

Just speculating,

Phobos

David Simmons
2002-Jun-07, 02:12 PM
On 2002-05-01 19:07, Phobos wrote:
After a split in 1991, Jounalists of the official newspaper of the Communist Party of the USSR (Pravda), formed an Online version of the newspaper.

On the 30th of April they published the following article;

Pravda Online Link (http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/04/30/28149.html)

The article claims that a discovery has been made which if correct would be the oldest map ever made.

If that was all there was to the claim then it would have no place on this board. That would be the case were it not for the reported age of the map - 120 million years old!

120 million years ago our planet was a very different place, and so was our species. The article claims that named and qualified scientists have found "indisputable proofs of an ancient highly developed civilization".

Given the reported extreme age of the maps, and the claimed scientific crudentials of those involved I thought it might be interesting to bring the claim to the attention of this board.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-05-01 19:09 ]</font>


I only did a quick scan of the Pravda article. From that scan I infer that the slab was found on the surface. In that case the slab and the carvings can be of entirely different ages. Have Pravda come back when a slab with a map is found in an undisturbedstratum.

digging4fire
2002-Jun-07, 02:27 PM
I also find it a bit odd that a "Doctor of Physical and Mathematical Science" made the discovery. Not an archeologist, or an anthropologist, or a geologist. I'm also suspicious of anyone who claims indisputable proof BEFORE any peer review is done.

p9107
2002-Jun-07, 03:30 PM
Were there humans in those times? I thaught we were just monkeys. And frogs.

Wiley
2002-Jun-07, 03:44 PM
On 2002-06-07 11:30, p9107 wrote:
Were there humans in those times? I thaught we were just monkeys. And frogs.


Humans (or more specifically, what were to become humans) and chimps (or more specifically, what were to become chimps) diverged about 6-8 million years ago. At 120 million years, we weren't even monkeys.

p9107
2002-Jun-07, 03:49 PM
So what were we...?


bacterium? Single-celled thingamajigs?

DJ
2002-Jun-07, 04:32 PM
smells the speculation zone coming. careful with "what is, what isn't, and what we're thinking" when someone comes along to answer what we were 120 million years ago.

think... punctuated equilibrium - thanks to Stephen J. Gould

DJ

Wiley
2002-Jun-07, 08:18 PM
On 2002-06-07 11:49, p9107 wrote:
So what were we...?


bacterium? Single-celled thingamajigs?


Don't know. The K-T extinction occured about 65 mya, so 120 mya puts us smack dap in the middle of the dinosaur reign.

Regardless this tablet does seem to confirm Lovecraft's theories. I bet these guys could find better stuff in Antarctica. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

beskeptical
2002-Jun-08, 01:52 AM
From the fossil record:
4 bya- chemical elements needed for life (primordial RNA)
3.5 bya- single celled microbes
2.4 bya- first organisms with nucleus
1.4 bya- first multicelled organisms
600 mya- first marine organisms
550 mya- first terrestrial organisms
418 mya- first terrestrial animals
320 mya- reptiles, flying insects
226 mya- dinosaurs
209 mya- mammals
151 mya- birds
33 mya- monkies
4 mya- hominids
source: "Atlas of Life on Earth", Dixon, et al, 2001

I don't know what DJ means by the 'speculation zone' but if one doesn't think the fossil record is very good evidence then I recommend a year or two of college geology before claiming to be qualified to discount said fossil record.

p9107
2002-Jun-08, 10:26 AM
so, how can the article prove it is the oldest human map ever made, if they don't know that we made it. Maybe snails made it.

Phobos
2002-Jun-09, 12:32 PM
On 2002-06-08 06:26, p9107 wrote:
so, how can the article prove it is the oldest human map ever made, if they don't know that we made it. Maybe snails made it.


The following quotes are from a June 6 Provda online interview (http://english.pravda.ru/chuvirov.html) with Doctor of physics and mathematics, professor of the State University of Bashkiria, Alexander Chuvyrov:

Has the place changed a lot since the moment, when the map was done?

Of course, it has, but the Ural region is a quite place seismically, that is why the area wasp lace due to erosion. One of the whole, the territory has not really changed for millions of year. NASA is working on the program to create 3D maps and you can become familiar with the results on their site.

Dear Mr Chuvyrov!
Several questions to you.
1. Which methods did you use to determine the age of the slab you have found?
2. Who were that scientists who investigated the slab?
3. As a matter of fact, this slab is not an ordinary scientific sensation, but a serious material proof of how little we know about our planed. If possible, could you appraise in percent the level of journalistic distortion of information about the slab published by PRAVDA.Ru. Thank you.

A special commission worked at the problem. Therefore, this is a result of many people’s work. At the same time, there are delicate questions: for example, the questions about the inscription, about materials of what the slab was produced, about the map on the slab. On these questions, we had consultations with the Chinese.
As for journalists, we should not criticize them, because their aim is to present some information to average readers, without burdening them with some scientific theories


1. Will the search continue to find more stones with relief maps?
2. If there are new slabs found, will it prove that there were highly-developed civilizations on the planet that most likely left other traces of their existence on Earth and in the Solar system?
3. What struck you most in your discovery and what are your subjective ideas that you have not shared yet with the readers?


The stone itself struck me most. The location of five other stones is known and if there are enough funds assigned for the works, then they will be retrieved and exhibited in museums. The slabs are located in different settlements of the Nurimansky region of the republic of Bashkiria. The question pertaining to highly-developed civilizations is outside my competence. A special international committee is supposed to answer this question after five other slabs are found. Are there any more slabs? It is an important and interesting question, but it is for the next generation.

I noticed a couple of other references to requiring more funds as well ...

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-06-09 08:38 ]</font>