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publius
2011-Sep-25, 03:51 AM
... I want to get off.

Just for fun, I downloaded the newly available Win8 preview release (leaked builds were available before then, but I'd never partake in anything like that, of course, of course) and installed in a VM, and I'm now posting from under IE10 in the thing.

I'm getting old. At 44, I thought I thought I still had some time before I completely became my father, but I'm here.

They're trying to make Windows be an Apple, iPad or iPhone or something (they're going to have their own "app" store, ala Apple, and some new notion of "apps" -- god, I hate that word), probably figuring touch-screen tablets are going to take over the world. This is just a preview mind you, so they may make the "classic" look available later, but darn it, this is something else. Anyway, the new UI is called "Metro" and programs specifically designed for it are "Metro apps". And they look like something for an iPhone, of course.

The familiar start menu is completely gone, and you have to fight this garish new Apple-y iPad-y nonsense. You can get to a regular desktop, but to launch anything you have to deal with the crap. Took me 10 minutes to figure out how to shut the system down/restart.

If I have to fight this new user interface, I guess I'm done, stuck in my old ways. I gave up on Gnome 3 playing with Linux, which is also trying to look iPad-ish.

They do have a new file system, codenamed Protogon, but, fighting the UI, I just can't get into playing that much. Hyper-Vis going to be available (at least in the Ultimate version) too, meaning you don't need the $$$ server product for that.

At any rate, if this is the future, I'm staying in the past, thank you very much. The kids will probably love it, though. :sigh:

Again, they may make it possible to go back closer to the old ways for desktops and laptops, but they're focusing heavily on the tablet/touchscreen Metro crap.


-Richard

pzkpfw
2011-Sep-25, 04:31 AM
Totally agree.

e.g. I like files and I like knowing where they are. Fine, let everyone pretend they are all just documents living in a folder called "documents" and pretend the desktop is the root of the file system - but don't make it hard for me to find on "C:\..." somewhere.

...and command interfaces. Gosh, managing a Windows 2008 server already feels like playing with a bubble gum interface. I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT THE ICONS MEAN - and there's no simple way to look up what an icon does. Why can't I please easily have a nice text menu too? With nice simple words like "Backup" and such? Does the server have to act like it's an iPad too?

...and why do settings screens (I'm talking to you, Office 2010) now all have to look like (different!) web pages?

I join you, in grumpy-old-man-ishness.



edit to add:

I'm not against change, or different interfaces where it makes sense. Windows CE trying to look like the then current desktop Windows was silly. When they went to Windows Phone 7 and totally dumped the old interface it made LOTS of sense. But now they are doing that in reverse, and the touchy-feely interfaces are going where they don't always belong. Phones, tablets, netbooks, laptops, desktops, servers all (can) have different form factors and purposes, uses and users. Sigh.

Solfe
2011-Sep-25, 05:40 AM
Ick... It looks like they took all of the themes that didn't work in Vista and packaged them into Windows 8.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Sep-25, 06:42 AM
*nix command line for the win1.

1) Note lowercase "w".

Luckmeister
2011-Sep-25, 07:16 AM
We keep going backwards in some ways. I put my old Sony studio headphones on a neighbor kid the other day and he freaked out! He'd only used earbuds and he'd never heard bass like that out of a portable device. I told him I bought them in the '80s and he freaked out again.

And telephones, landline or cell, have nowhere near the audio quality phones had 50 years ago, thanks to digital compression.

And I'm tired of people wanting me to text them instead of TALKING! :doh:

As teens back in the '50s, my friends and I had 2-way radio communication in our cars all over town (illegal of course). We even cobbled together our home-brew version of a phone auto-patch. Today I don't even own (or want) a mobile phone.

Yeah, I'm old and I want a time machine so I can go back. I would take a couple of things back with me though.

Tobin Dax
2011-Sep-25, 07:42 AM
publius, I'm over a decade younger than you and I'm turned off by all that crap. I guess I better get around to buying a new computer soon, since I Windows 7 is reasonably usable.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Sep-25, 07:51 AM
For the last very long time it seems like every second major Windows desktop release has been good and the others bad.

Win 3 meh, WfW good
Win95 meh, Win98 good
Win ME bad, XP good (especially once they got to SP2)
Vista Bad, Win 7 good
Win 8 ?

Solfe
2011-Sep-25, 03:10 PM
What is WfW?

I would rate them as -
Window 3 great but limited by hardware,
Windows 95 so-so,
Windows 98 good,
Win Me Great... as long as nothing needed to be modified or added (more reflection on the hardware of the time than the OS),
Windows 2K good,
Windows XP good,
Windows XP SP2 great to awesome,
Windows XP SP3 really bad,
Vista so-so,
Vista SP 1 or 2 horrible (reflection on the hardware needed and software pushed),
Windows 7 great.
Windows 8 is going to tank due to hardware.

I think most OS'es, ie Apple, MS, Linux, etc need to be built on the 10 year plan. 2 years of beta/bleeding edge, 5 years of use and 3 year cushion to get people off the old hardware. Most of the failures above were because the software got ahead of the hardware.

Moose
2011-Sep-25, 04:31 PM
WfW = Windows for Workgroups, aka 3.11.

Selenite
2011-Sep-25, 06:26 PM
Yeah, I'm old and I want a time machine so I can go back. I would take a couple of things back with me though.

Oh yeah. Minor items. Sports almanacs, stock histories, a compendium of Vegas odds. ;)

Swift
2011-Sep-25, 07:41 PM
I'm still running Windows XP on this machine, quite happy with it, and will resist upgrading as long as I possibly can.

Trebuchet
2011-Sep-25, 07:52 PM
I never upgrade an OS and hang on to my old computers as long as they still do what I want. I'd probably be quite happy with DOS6 and Win 3.1. We did just get our first Win7 machine. The machine itself is great, very fast to the old ones, but I'm pretty "meh" on the user interface. It seems like each succeeding upgrade to the directory management system gets worse.

Solfe
2011-Sep-25, 08:07 PM
3.11. I didn't know it was called that. Neat.

Tobin Dax
2011-Sep-25, 09:02 PM
Our computers at work are Windows-based and up to date, but my laptop at home is running XP. I've caught myself looking for buttons on my laptop's taskbar that I use regularly at work. At this point, an upgrade is half for mental stability. :) The other half of the reason is that my laptop's fan will finally stop one day. I've had a few "fan errors" over the summer, but the "kinetic-impact method" of fixing things only works for so long.

Jeff Root
2011-Sep-25, 09:18 PM
Is there any compelling reason for me to either update or
not update my Windows 7 with Service Pack 1? I only have
a dial-up connection so I haven't downloaded any updates
at all, but I just got the SP1 on a DVD. However, I've seen
mixed comments about whether to install it. Naturally,
since the advice is from the Internet...

Interestingly, I didn't have to provide any evidence that I
own a legal copy of Windows 7 to get SP1 from Microsoft.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Solfe
2011-Sep-25, 09:28 PM
I don't recall the XP or Vista OS'es confirming that I had legally installed. I suspect that there is some sort of content signing in the background that causes the update to go right through if it is a legit copy. If it isn't legit, I believe that you are told this before the update runs anyway.

publius
2011-Sep-25, 10:42 PM
I'm still running XP too, well the x64 version actually. That was sort of niche, really, as they didn't try to mainstream it. I skipped Vista completely, but bought Win7 Pro a while back. I've just about finished building up working install of the x64 version with all my progams and crap installed, but I just haven't yet switched over. I've got loads of OSes installed, including Linux (Fedora flavor), both 32-bit and x64. I'm sort of a nut with all that crap -- it's a real chore to keep 'em all updated. Seems like that's all I do sometimes. One day it'll hit me and I boot up them all up and update them in turn, taking a couple hours sometimes to go through them all. :lol:

Yes, I'm a lunatic.

I don't think I've ever bought a complete computer system in my life. I've always built them up. For example, this machine here has a case that's about 10 years old. Everything inside, including the power supply has been replaced several times over. It and my other machines just continuously evolve. That's how I roll. And I've got a storage room in a shed nearly full of old computer parts to show for it.

So I've never had a prebuilt OEM system with the OS preinstalled in my life.

I don't mind Windows 7 all that much, but just haven't left my old XPx64 behind yet. The biggest change with Win7 (which actually started with Vista) were the major changes to the installation layout on the filesystem. That was a pretty major change and I had to learn where everything was. They completely scrapped the "Documents and Settings" hierachy, using the new NTFS soft links to create pointers to the new locations for old programs expecting the old system. They also made major of use of hard links with the WinSxS system (NTFS has supported hard links at the low level for a long time, it was just Win32 programs never used them before).

It's become standard to assume one partition (C:\ of course) and everything is going to live there under the Program Files, and Documents and Settings hierarchies. I hate that because I use multiple partitions. I want the OS to live by itself on a dedicated partition. When multibooting that's the way to go, of course. But dumbed down programs are increasing not giving any options to where you want to put things.

korjik
2011-Sep-25, 11:10 PM
Our computers at work are Windows-based and up to date, but my laptop at home is running XP. I've caught myself looking for buttons on my laptop's taskbar that I use regularly at work. At this point, an upgrade is half for mental stability. :) The other half of the reason is that my laptop's fan will finally stop one day. I've had a few "fan errors" over the summer, but the "kinetic-impact method" of fixing things only works for so long.

percussion tuning. Impact means you dropped it :)

I still have XP, but that is almost as much cause my puter wont handle anything newer. It is pretty much a museum job now. I have never been a fan of changing things for changing sake, so desktop changes all start with a strike against. Sounds like I am going to spend some time annoyed when I finally get a new box.

I may need to wait till the next windows comes out tho, I forgot that 8 is an odd version...

:)

Moose
2011-Sep-25, 11:34 PM
I've had a few "fan errors" over the summer, but the "kinetic-impact method" of fixing things only works for so long.

You might hold a vacuum to the vent. What you're describing sounds like a dust clog.

One day, a friend of mine turned on his laptop, and a thin cloud of blue/grey smoke came out of the fan. He saw it, I saw it. He emergency-stopped the machine. Later, once we were within range of my tool kit, we opened the case to expose the fan. There was a dust clog, blue/grey in color, that was the size and thickness of a child's harmonica, about as dense as dryer lint, wrapped around the fan blade. The "smoke" we saw was the case fan shredding a bit of that clog that worked its way loose.

cjl
2011-Sep-26, 12:59 AM
I actually kind of like Win8. It seems to be even snappier and less resource-intensive than Win7, and they've kept most of the interface the same. The new BSOD is kind of entertaining too (Yes, I've had a couple, but that's to be expected on a prerelease). Boot times and hibernate/resume times are stunningly good as well.

Oh, and the new start menu/interface/app/whatever thing? I ditched it within 5 minutes. There's a registry key you can toggle that completely gets rid of it, and basically makes Win8 identical to Win7 in terms of the main interface (but, as I said, with significant performance improvements).

Tobin Dax
2011-Sep-26, 01:28 AM
You might hold a vacuum to the vent. What you're describing sounds like a dust clog.

One day, a friend of mine turned on his laptop, and a thin cloud of blue/grey smoke came out of the fan. He saw it, I saw it. He emergency-stopped the machine. Later, once we were within range of my tool kit, we opened the case to expose the fan. There was a dust clog, blue/grey in color, that was the size and thickness of a child's harmonica, about as dense as dryer lint, wrapped around the fan blade. The "smoke" we saw was the case fan shredding a bit of that clog that worked its way loose.

Thanks, Moose. I'll give that a shot.

And I need to correct myself: I'm running Vista, not XP. Don't know why I can't keep those two straight any more. (Though the laptop did start out with XP.)

publius
2011-Sep-26, 02:03 AM
Oh, and the new start menu/interface/app/whatever thing? I ditched it within 5 minutes. There's a registry key you can toggle that completely gets rid of it, and basically makes Win8 identical to Win7 in terms of the main interface (but, as I said, with significant performance improvements).

Goody. Found it.

Turns out that registry value gets rid of Metro, but also many of the other new features including the new Task Manager. Someone has already written a program to selectively disable things. I don't like the new Ribbon Bar in Explorer much -- looks just like the Windows Live stuff -- but I like the extended Task Manager stuff.

I'm absolutely certain they'll add a way to disable Metro in the final release. It's only good for touch screens. I mean crap, it looks like something designed for pre-school children to play with.

Solfe
2011-Sep-26, 02:46 AM
I am on a Linux user list and that whole group is fired up about the Windows 8 requirement to lock up the Bios so other operating systems can't be installed. Does that have any basis in reality?

My wife purchased a Windows 7 machine and I told her the only troubleshooting I would do is install Linux when Window 7 dies. I would hate it if the OS died and I couldn't get anything else on it.

Rhaedas
2011-Sep-26, 03:03 AM
I am on a Linux user list and that whole group is fired up about the Windows 8 requirement to lock up the Bios so other operating systems can't be installed. Does that have any basis in reality?

I would think that would stray into the realm of monopolizing, something that MS has been in court before for. It's one thing to make things difficult for dual booters, but to not allow a user to run their machine on anything else? That's no different than refusing to install a different browser than IE.

publius
2011-Sep-26, 03:19 AM
I am on a Linux user list and that whole group is fired up about the Windows 8 requirement to lock up the Bios so other operating systems can't be installed. Does that have any basis in reality?

My wife purchased a Windows 7 machine and I told her the only troubleshooting I would do is install Linux when Window 7 dies. I would hate it if the OS died and I couldn't get anything else on it.

I was just reading something about that. It applies to the new UEFI firmware system, a BIOS replacement. I've been thinking about getting a motherboard with that on it. The UEFI spec allows for something they call secure boot, where the firmware will only boot signed code. Supposedly MS is trying to force OEMs to use this, which would lock out any other OSes unless they are given their own keys.

I don't think MS will get away with that.

ETA: They won't get away with it if their attempt is to lock other OSes out. If the attempt is just to use the secure boot feature, and make it available to everyone, or provide a means for the user to unlock the secure boot feature, then no problem.

publius
2011-Sep-26, 03:24 AM
I got rid of Metro, thank goodness, and was going to play around with the new Protogon filesystem. But alas, MS has apparently disabled it for the Developer Preview, perhaps not wanting people snooping around on it. The "Protogon.sys" driver is still there, as well as the registry entries to start it, but a format attempt fails with the error that "format fails". It goes through all the motions and doesn't throw the error until the very end.

It was in the leaked builds and working. I used a virtual disk from one of those leaked builds with a working Protogon filesystem on it, and the new Dev Preview build doesn't recognize it at all.

Maybe some hacker will figure out how to reenable it.

I remember someone looking at the disk structures trying to figure it out and he decided it was pretty different from NTFS. They must be keeping it under wraps for this preview.

Solfe
2011-Sep-26, 12:03 PM
http://xkcd.com/323/