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Moose
2011-Oct-03, 07:46 PM
Wait a minute. Grant is an engineer:

No, Grant's statement is probably right. "Engineer" is a protected term. He's only entitled to call himself one if he's licensed to be an engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) by (presumably) California.

Solfe
2011-Oct-03, 07:57 PM
Well, the reason that he said it was he was soldering a crystal to a stick, which in turn would be soldered a string connected to a rheostat. He was having some difficultly with making the stuff stay together.

I think the statement was meant to ironic, considering his electronic/robotic skills, engineer or not.

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-03, 11:00 PM
No, Grant's statement is probably right. "Engineer" is a protected term. He's only entitled to call himself one if he's licensed to be an engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) by (presumably) California.

Completely off topic: That's always been a major pet peeve of mine. I was a pretty good engineer for 20 years before I took the stinkin' exam. And passing didn't make me a better one. I really don't know why I bothered except that the company offered free tuition to the refresher course. I'm not sure why I'm keeping it up-to-date now that I've retired, either.

Completely on topic: I'm with Henrik on the line wrap thing. That's a case of BREAKING something that didn't need fixing.

Kaptain K
2011-Oct-04, 06:26 PM
No, Grant's statement is probably right. "Engineer" is a protected term. He's only entitled to call himself one if he's licensed to be an engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) by (presumably) California.

... Or drives a train. :whistle:

Extravoice
2011-Oct-04, 07:37 PM
No, Grant's statement is probably right. "Engineer" is a protected term. He's only entitled to call himself one if he's licensed to be an engineer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) by (presumably) California.

I don't think so. Professional Engineer is a "protected term" and requires licensing, but an engineering degree is sufficient to call yourself an engineer in these parts (not counting that train operator issue the Kaptain mentioned). My first job out of college was as an official US government "0855 Electrionics Engineer" and I didn't need a PE.

Of course, other countries may have different rules.;)

Back on topic, that is the worst wink ever!

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-05, 12:10 AM
I don't think so. Professional Engineer is a "protected term" and requires licensing, but an engineering degree is sufficient to call yourself an engineer in these parts (not counting that train operator issue the Kaptain mentioned). My first job out of college was as an official US government "0855 Electrionics Engineer" and I didn't need a PE.

Of course, other countries may have different rules.;)

Back on topic, that is the worst wink ever!

In this state, if you advertise yourself as an engineer, put it on your business card, or anything of the sort, the state board will come after you. Regardless of your education or expertise. I get their quarterly newsletter in which they report on doing just that. There's a loophole for engineers working for companies, where they are required to work under the "direct supervision" of a PE. They don't bother enforcing that, however. It might be humorous to see them going after Boeing if they found one of the many "Chiefs" wasn't a PE.

geonuc
2011-Oct-05, 09:39 AM
I don't think so. Professional Engineer is a "protected term" and requires licensing, but an engineering degree is sufficient to call yourself an engineer in these parts (not counting that train operator issue the Kaptain mentioned). My first job out of college was as an official US government "0855 Electrionics Engineer" and I didn't need a PE.

Your location is listed as near Grover's Mill. If that's in New Jersey, then you are incorrect. If it's not NJ, then never mind.

From the New Jersey State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors regulations:

13:40-3.1 Licensure requirement; issuance and display
of certificate; advertising
(a) A person shall not use the title "professional engineer,"
"engineer" or its substantial equivalent or otherwise represent
to the public that the person is licensed to practice engineering
in this State unless that person is licensed by the Board.

Also:

13:40-3_2 Licensure exemptions: acceptable measurements
by professional engineers
(aJ The following persons shall be exempt from the licensure
requirements of N.J.A.C. 13:40-3.1:
...
3. An employee or a subordinate of an individual holding
a valid license issued by the Board or an employee of a
person exempted from licensure by (a)1 or 2 above, provided
that this practice does not include responsible charge
of design or supervision;
4. An officer or employee of the Government of the
United States while engaged within this State in the practice
of professional engineering or land surveying for that
government;

Extravoice
2011-Oct-05, 12:07 PM
Thanks geonuc. "Engineer" is one of those terms that has an official meaning that is sometimes different from the common usage. (See any discussion of the term "theory" for a perfect example. :) ) There are engineers with a PE license, engineers with a degree but no license, the people who operate locomotives (who certainly must have some specialized certification) and the dreaded "tack the term engineer onto any thing you want" type of engineer (i.e., domestic engineer). If you're looking for an engineer, be sure to specify exactly what you are looking for.

Swift
2011-Oct-06, 12:52 AM
These posts have been split off the software upgrade thread (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/121643-Upgraded-the-server-to-4.1.6). There were a couple of transitional posts I left behind.

Swift
2011-Oct-06, 12:54 AM
... Or drives a train. :whistle:
That makes me think of this Utah Phillips song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5YoLjYD8QE). :)

tlbs101
2011-Oct-06, 02:39 AM
Partial definition:
An engineer is someone who can take the dreams of a PhD Theorist, and turn them into reality; sometimes with much cursing of said Theorist in the process.

korjik
2011-Oct-06, 03:20 AM
actually, it is an experimentalist that turns the dreams into reality, then the engineer makes them useful

Solfe
2011-Oct-06, 11:25 AM
My wife always says "Nurses and Engineers have schizophrenic children."

I am not exactly why she says that as her dad is an engineer and her mom is a nurse. Maybe she was trying to scare me off?

Noclevername
2011-Oct-06, 11:34 AM
My wife always says "Nurses and Engineers have schizophrenic children."

I am not exactly why she says that as her dad is an engineer and her mom is a nurse. Maybe she was trying to scare me off?

My mom is an Operating Room RN, my father a nuclear engineer (both now retired). But I turned out perfectly fine (by the way, I posed for that wink smilie.) ;)

HenrikOlsen
2011-Oct-06, 12:13 PM
I think it's a fairly common combination, I'm the offspring of a nurse and an engineer as well,

MAPNUT
2011-Oct-06, 12:40 PM
Engineer married to nurse here. Our 3 grown children are all fine but none of them are even remotely involved in engineering or nursing. Maybe that's necessary. Shall we split off another thread?

In most states you can't get a PE license until you have 5 years of experience anyway. What are you until then?

peteshimmon
2011-Oct-06, 01:01 PM
They can do for a shilling what any
fool can do for a pound!

No I dont understand it either.

Extravoice
2011-Oct-06, 01:21 PM
They can do for a shilling what any
fool can do for a pound!

No I dont understand it either.


I'd never hear this saying before, but have an idea of what it means.

Quite a bit of an engineer's job is optimization. I can over-design a deck for my house, but a PE can tell me how strong the beams really need to be. My deck will cost a pound to the engineer's shilling, because my structure will be overly conservative in design.

Extravoice
2011-Oct-06, 01:27 PM
My wife always says "Nurses and Engineers have schizophrenic children."

I don't know about that, but I've heard that Asperger's syndrome is common in engineers.

The Engineer's Disease (http://www.pbs.org/kcet/wiredscience/story/15-the+engineer%27s+disease.html)

I wonder how common Autism is in children of engineer parents. :think:

Cougar
2011-Oct-06, 01:29 PM
....but a PE can tell me how strong the beams really need to be.

I think you'd be safer with an SE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_engineering) on that job.

Extravoice
2011-Oct-06, 03:03 PM
I think you'd be safer with an SE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_engineering) on that job.

PE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) refers to being licensed, so I'd probably want an SE with a PE license.

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-06, 04:11 PM
PE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer) refers to being licensed, so I'd probably want an SE with a PE license.

Or, in this state, a PE who has sat the supplemental Structural exam.

I've been told I build my catapult frames too light. At least the latest one. It hasn't broken yet so I figure it's probably too heavy.

profloater
2011-Oct-06, 06:37 PM
In the UK we really messed up a couple of centuries ago so anybody can be an engineer. To get to be a chartered engineer you need a degree in engineering plus industrial experience and a sponsor to confirm your professional attitude but having done that there is no exclusivity under the law. In germany the equivalent is Dipl. Ing and to be in charge of an engineering project you have to be one in Germany. It's too late now to put it right. (End of rant)

Solfe
2011-Oct-06, 09:08 PM
That is pretty amazing that those two professions "hook up" so often. I am really going to ask my wife what she means by that.

geonuc
2011-Oct-07, 09:04 AM
In most states you can't get a PE license until you have 5 years of experience anyway. What are you until then?

Engineer-in-Training (EIT), provided you've passed the exam for that.

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-07, 03:00 PM
Engineer-in-Training (EIT), provided you've passed the exam for that.

As I was 20 years out of college when I took it, I found that exam much tougher than the branch exam I took six months later. The EIT exam is (or was at that time) a general exam given to all types of engineers, including lots of stuff I'd forgotten because I simply hadn't needed it. Thank FSM for the refresher course and even more for the book that came with it, which I took to the test.

At the Mechanical branch exam, I was worried about having to handle HVAC related questions -- not my field at all. I needn't have been. Although fully half the questions were HVAC, you only had to answer half the questions to complete the test!

Net effect of getting licensed on my career: None whatsoever.
Net effect on my life: Loss of time taken up by two tests and associated refreshers, and $75 every two years for maintenance. I'm sort of sorry I bothered.

I think there's a new name instead of EIT now, but I don't remember what it is.

ETA: The EIT is now called FE, for Fundamentals of Engineering. Apparently it's now closed-book, unlike when I took it, and is tailored to specific branches. Linky (http://www.ncees.org/Exams/FE_exam.php). I don't know what you call someone who's passed it these days.

geonuc
2011-Oct-08, 09:26 AM
ETA: The EIT is now called FE, for Fundamentals of Engineering. Apparently it's now closed-book, unlike when I took it, and is tailored to specific branches. Linky (http://www.ncees.org/Exams/FE_exam.php). I don't know what you call someone who's passed it these days.

I believe you're still called an Engineer-in-Training.

You're right about the EIT exam. I describe it as "Design the universe. Show your work."

Strange
2011-Oct-08, 09:48 AM
I was really surprised by this thread (as an engineer) as I was completely unaware of such requirements. Even though I worked for a while in the US.


In the UK we really messed up a couple of centuries ago so anybody can be an engineer.

The wikipedia article linked earlier says that qualifications in the UK include "having a driving license, being physically fit, and not being color blind". That is setting the bar pretty high :)

pzkpfw
2011-Oct-08, 11:21 AM
Dilbert reference: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1997-01-30/

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-08, 02:37 PM
In the airplane biz we called that "dual load path". Can be a real pain in the empennage but sometimes saves lives.

George
2011-Oct-08, 03:21 PM
In the airplane biz we called that "dual load path". What does that mean? Is that a Safety Factory of 2? Rooming with an aero long ago, I vaguely recall higher values.

The word engineer is one that requires context by the user, which is why many projects require a licensed engineer to bless so many projects. A train "engineer" is not an inappropriate title if you are employed by the train company.

The key point is a matter of design competency. Engineers, just like astronomers, must be capable of demonstrating their ability to competently grasp the factors that affect a problem. Knowing how to apply all the various phenomena and in mathematical terms determines whether one should be called an engineer (or astronomer). It doesn't require perfection, but a high degree of competency. To pass the test to become a PE, what questions are asked? They are objective ones just like the thousand others that were presented in the classroom.

Having an engineering degree qualifies one to be called an engineer. In geonuc's post of the N.J. law, they require that you must be "licensed to practice" to be called a licensed engineer. A license is another level of competency. Not only does it require knowledge but usually some working experience in industry. More importantly, the PE knows that their license will be in jeopardy if they don't do due diligence when they approve a design.

Some of the greatest designs out there, however, came from folks who would never call themselves engineers. These are inventors and they like being called that. I don't think there is a license for that. When there inventions do well in the market place, what do they do next? They hire engineers, and for good reasons, once they have or will have money in the bank.

profloater
2011-Oct-08, 08:39 PM
The wikipedia article linked earlier says that qualifications in the UK include "having a driving license, being physically fit, and not being color blind". That is setting the bar pretty high :) You only need colour sight to be a telecoms engineer, all those pretty coloured wires and sometimes it matters which terminal they go to. The driving licence probably helps with automobile engineers and as for being fit, that's a good joke. It would be hard to get through all the exams if you happen to be tee total. Just joking, hick. Most of the original great British engineers started out as clergymen and spent their days inventing engines. Deus ex machina I suppose. Same for inventors, all amateurs in the good old days. Maybe too much book learning hurts your creativity. My favourite was the American guy who invented the zip fastener, (will check his name later) he did not just invent the zip, he invented and made a machine to make zip fasteners! Now that is a challenge for all students today, 2 marks for thinking of a zip, eight for working out how to make it, 90 more for going on and doing it, that's an engineer folks.

Stug III
2011-Oct-08, 09:58 PM
Most of the original great British engineers started out as clergymen and spent their days inventing engines.
Any examples? Sons of clergy perhaps but not clergy. I can't think of any but then I am very drunk.

As the daughter of a Brumagen telecoms engineer all I would add is that his definition of an engineer is someone who only has three measurements, a mile, an inch and a ballhair.

RAF_Blackace
2011-Oct-08, 10:14 PM
Lasd weak I Kant evun spel injuneer, dis weak I yam one.

profloater
2011-Oct-09, 06:14 AM
Any examples? Sons of clergy perhaps but not clergy. I can't think of any but then I am very drunk.

As the daughter of a Brumagen telecoms engineer all I would add is that his definition of an engineer is someone who only has three measurements, a mile, an inch and a ballhair.Well I was thinking of Stirling, but there was Cartright who invented the mechanical loom, Garrett, the submarine, Hunnings the carbon microphone, Bright invented shorthand, if that counts. (can you count faster in shorthand? No matter.

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-09, 04:43 PM
"Dual Load Path" is not at all the same as factor of safety. It means there are two separate structural paths, each capable of carrying the full load if the other fails. It's for redundancy. A factor of safety applies to each path. Examples would be a shaft within a shaft, dual pieces of sheet metal in a bracket, etc. One of the key rules in aerospace design is that "no single failure" may cause a catastrophic event, regardless of probability. Dual failures are allowed to have a combined probability of one in one billion per flight hour.

Unfortunately, I didn't have much luck trying to Google up any clear examples.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Oct-09, 05:06 PM
Twin engine planes that can land on one engine is probably a good example, though it might get confused with margin of safety because of the extra power needed for each engine.

George
2011-Oct-09, 06:38 PM
"Dual Load Path" is not at all the same as factor of safety. It means there are two separate structural paths, each capable of carrying the full load if the other fails. It's for redundancy. That makes sense. Brake systems might be a good example. Heavy construction equipment (eg rollers) often have three brake systems: dynamic (ie hydraulic motors), disk or drum brakes, and parking brakes. These are separate systems, however, and you may mean a more self-redundancy view, perhaps.

A better example might be the use of safety chains, which serve as a back-up in case a cylinder or something fails.

George
2011-Oct-09, 06:40 PM
Twin engine planes that can land on one engine is probably a good example, though it might get confused with margin of safety because of the extra power needed for each engine. That looks like a good example, though landing on a runway would be better than landing on an engine. :razz:

Trebuchet
2011-Oct-09, 10:31 PM
Twin engine planes that can land on one engine is probably a good example, though it might get confused with margin of safety because of the extra power needed for each engine.

I had an interesting discussion about this with a co-worker who is a private pilot. His father-in law had experienced a massive failure on a recently rebuilt engine on his Bonanza. Not only immediate loss of all power, but the windscreen covered in oil. He made an emergency landing in a pasture, which would have gone better had he been able to see the fence.... The airplane was a total loss but there were no serious injuries. After that he bought a twin-engined airplane.

HOWEVER -- As my friend explained it to me, light civil airplanes, unlike commercial airliners, are not required by the FAA to be able to continue a takeoff. Typically if an engine fails on one of them, you're going to be coming down. And because you have two engines, failure is twice as likely as with a single. Furthermore, unlike with a single which keeps going straight, a twin with one engine out and the other at takeoff rpm immediately experiences a violent yaw, which, if not immediately corrected with the rudder results in the airplane rolling over and a fatal crash. And you may not even have enough rudder authority. Singles, on the other hand, just glide straight to a landing.

BigDon
2011-Oct-10, 12:42 AM
Hey! I was a home furnishing relocation engineer!

Okay, that out of the way...

Treb, if you're lucky you would get a violent yaw. I was from the F-14 community. There is a blackbox recording of one of our aircrews going into a flatspin at just below mach, at altitude. So all the forward impulse is now translated into rpm's of the spin as it falls straight out of the air. The aircrew were dead before the bird lost half it's altitude. Centrifuged to death.

One of the aircrew had his foot on the pedal comm switch the whole time so all the cockpit noise was recorded on the blackbox until it hit the water. That's nothing you actually want to hear.