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ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-10, 11:52 AM
Hello, I am writing from Turkey.

We encountered a very special and unusual event.
As a scientific look at this issue, and all the support we 'll let you do the research.
If you live in the usual and ordinary thing in this event, for science is there?
You give us information.

Hoping that you will start showing interest in this matter and help, thank you in advance.
http://andiraz.tripod.com/id18.html
best regards
Celalettin Karagül

DETAIL:
Below mentioned event together with uncle 3 years ago but lived in the province of Kastamonu in Turkey. Until then, issues such as UFO, etc. I thought it was a product of fantasy. But that night, completely changed my views on this issue.

Together with uncle for the summer holidays when he was in the village we live together as the event grew out of the village for a night walk 2-3 km away from the village had gone together, while the other stars in the northwest to us, but we saw a little something different to each other without talking about it.

I continued to walk about 30 minutes later, he began to approach us and the light was growing at the same time, we got closer we saw about 300 meters away from the ground up to 10 meters
100 meters in diameter, which rose slightly after the body was in that area for a few seconds (50 meters up) and came to us with our full body movements that I was moving without making a sound like a plane or helicopter that is moving and suddenly I realized it was like running out there.
He waited a second or two above us, by the way my head, eyeing him curiously, then turned at an angle of 180 degrees, including the fear created by the hand reflexively go rifle hunting was carried with me, but my opinion is currently recording an object.

Direction in front of me was going to be my uncle.
Loss of a hill behind my back had gone to a full-time.
Perhaps these events happened within a few seconds, but for us when he took a longer way if it was quite slow.
Description of the location of this event on Google Earth and the observed object
We have seen a similar object was colored, the colors do not remember the full round of nested rings and spots, formed a wide variety of colors. I can not remember exactly similar to the colors in the picture below
Event Location: Turkey Kastamonu Andıraz
Event date / time: 23-24 hours between July 2008
Eyewitnesses: Halit Çilek (uncle)
Event, which is the subject of the object shape: two nested rings, and also very lively in the rings may be shaped in a symmetrical small scarlet spots I had a very round.
comments and thoughts on the subject :

two intertwined red circle, between them, have the depth of the circle or outside of this small elliptical shapes of green, blue colors, such as
Most of the colors from a variety of very powerful and have a generation of lighting
First appeared; it was when we saw the lights from the ground up and stretched

The first is too far when we saw the size of an orange. We walked for 30 minutes and then we started seeing bodies that big like the moon.

From that moment will go down in seconds, until the body approached the ground, and reached its maximum size was approximately 100 meters in diameter in the outer lights.

This drew my attention during the landing roll if it came.

Remained in place when they were first 8-9 seconds, then was replaced 3 times and waited for 2-3 seconds, then lost the second place came to be modified upon us.

During the displacement between the first point and second point never to be seen.

One thing that caught my attention does not move east-west direction

He can only move us, while the first 50 meters from north to south and then moved to the east, 100 meters

[link removed]
Shared not cause this issue until now?

Around us shared our own in this matter. But when he shared not result in a larger environment, am annoyed with myself right now.
May be a situation like this, it would be such a thing again. In my hand than I thought I will better express myself clearly displays information occurs. Can not think of any share in this state will contribute. In this time, news media reported, Dogg Akdoğan UFO Nasa releases and publications on our observations be explained by any natural event helped me to admit to myself. For 3 years have passed since the formation of this consciousness, all events in a corner of my mind, always felt uncomfortable with, I believe that a serious information I 've salt in soup is probably no longer think that reproduces as you share information.

CONCLUSION:

Without evidence to believe that science is already against the spirit of scientific events, unconditional, and if
such invention would perform a lot of humanity, technology and science could not come to this level.
In fact, I can not believe I live event sounds like the only logical explanation for the unidentified flying object,
of course, hear the evidence without such a thing from someone like you would not believe me.
I witnessed one of those, 46 years old, college graduate, computer programmer I have my own job.
Other people who have witnessed the 55 year-old uncle, who live in the village primary school education, farming is
one constant.
Will make a serious scientific research about this event I would like to refer to an institution Have.
Welcome everyone interested to write a guestbook of this opinion.
http://users.smartgb.com/g/g.php?a=s&i=g16-05804-15#write
http://www.emailmeform.com/builder/form/gQHK2yeBLTMDf456wzvIt
Have Do not have a single goal of this event, the emergence of a scientific explanation, what we experienced in the
future or even close to what the human face, or a technology in a world where we do not know here?
What can be done to me I write, respectively.
Things to do to people:
1) Observation of two people who cross the query, the lie machine, a sworn statement, both of us separately, the
discovery of the crime scene.
2) be done through hypnosis to sleep for this event, perhaps a subconscious interrogation Have any other information
that is currently overlooked, removable, or other scientific methods at the moment I had not thought
3) above us that the process imposed on us radyosyon damage left by magnetic fields, etc., or any other helpful was
harmful radiation?

Things to do on-site Event:
1) much closer at the ground observations (5 Senses we have made using the buds, but not enough), it's involvement
there is another technique using the method of the magnetic field, radiation measurement, comparison of the values in
that region in different locations.
2) Here we do not know, but that would work for their great energy, a mineral that may be converted to fuel type to
something like a detector or is there something more powerful search tools to use mine.
3) examination of the area of biological diversity in the presence of a different species
I think a lot of time to pass through the trials of this event is a challenge, but still I think that tips can be found.
I am ready for cooperation with all kinds of scientific research is actually coming to my mind these are my first

(Mod Note: Moved from Astronomy to Conspriacy Theories. This is the appropriate forum to discuss UFOs. Please read the Rules concerning CT.)

Luckmeister
2011-Oct-10, 05:50 PM
The first thing that comes to mind with me is a possible plasma discharge associated with a ball lightning type event. I'm wondering if there is a large quartz deposit underground in that location. Other than that, I have no idea what it may have been.

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-10, 06:23 PM
Hello, I am writing from Turkey.

Welcome to the board, ANDIRAZ.


...100 meters in diameter...

Could you explain by what method you were able to determine this (and the other) distance(s) you mentioned?

Thanks.

Don J
2011-Oct-11, 03:56 AM
Hello, I am writing from Turkey.

Will make a serious scientific research about this event I would like to refer to an institution Have.


You seem to be looking for a scientific analysis of your case

I found an institute in Turkey which analysed a famous case who happened in your country.

"TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey (a Scientific Institution owned by the state that is highly reliable and influential) National Observatory (TUG)

Here a link for reference to other ressource...

http://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/

and
http://turkeyufocase.blogspot.com/p/mario-valdes-image-analysis.html

Note that this link is provided for reference only I am not a supporter or a defender of the Extraterrestrial hypothesis or of any conclusion made on these pages.

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-11, 04:30 AM
You seem to be looking for a scientific analysis of your case.

So you figured he needed links to Turkish UFO sites?...and you linked to those sites even though you don't agree with their "conclusions"?

As we tried to explain to you earlier...if you introduce non-mainstream ideas on this area of the board, you own those ideas.

If you don't want to be held responsible for advocating those ideas, then stop posting links to sites advocating those ideas.

Don J
2011-Oct-11, 04:33 AM
So you figured he needed links to Turkish UFO sites?...and you linked to those sites even though you don't agree with their "conclusions"?

As we tried to explain to you earlier...if you introduce ideas on this area of the board, you own those ideas.

If you don't want to be held responsible for advocating those ideas, then stop posting links to sites advocating those ideas.
This is a serious Turkey Scientific Institution owned by the state
"TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey (a Scientific Institution owned by the state that is highly reliable and influential) National Observatory (TUG)

There is so much ressources listed on the link that he may find something who may resolve his case.That is the essence of my intervention.I will not made other comments on this thread.Only ANDIRAZ can tell if he found what he is looking for.

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-11, 04:46 AM
There is so much ressources listed on the link that he may find something who may resolve his case.

How can you seriously think that UFO sites hold the answers, when you don't agree with their opinions?

Please consider that a direct question.

Don J
2011-Oct-11, 04:50 AM
How can you seriously think that UFO sites hold the answers, when you don't agree with their opinions?

Please consider that a direct question.
Like i said the reference to ...

TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey is a serious institution.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0048733374900262

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-11, 04:53 AM
This is a serious Turkey Scientific Institution owned by the state...

It may very well be owned by the state, but looking at it, it SCREAMS CREDULOUS BELIEVER.

So, "serious"?? They are serious about their belief...that's all.

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-11, 04:57 AM
Like i said the reference to ...

Lets get real....you want to post links to woo sites, but you don't want the responsibility of defending what is said on those sites.


That just won't "fly" here...

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-11, 04:58 AM
I've decided to remove myself from this thread as I don't want to be a "party" to Don's thread hijacking.


(yeah, I know...a little late. :))

captain swoop
2011-Oct-11, 08:29 AM
I don't see any thread hijack, Don J posted a link to a related resource. I do see you attempting to Moderate the thread though. If you have a problem with a post report it.

chrlzs
2011-Oct-11, 10:28 AM
Don J., as I am rather :sad: familiar with the case to which your links refer, I am troubled by:
a - your implication that Tubitak investigated that (unrelated) case thoroughly - they did NOT.
b - that any gov't organisation is somehow the be- and end-all of perfection in analysis
c - the glaring (and one might suggest deliberately misleading) error in the very first paragraph on your first link. It says, and I quote:

the images were made with a camera that had an adaptor for close ups of 200X optical
Clearly, the implication is that the camera was capable of 200x magnification. It was NOT. The camera was a Canon GL-1, fitted with a lens that zoomed to ~800mm (35mm equivalent). That's about 16x magnification. It had an added 2x teleconverter lens, giving a total of about 32x magnification. '200x'? That's only an exaggeration of about 600%... :naughty:

Anyway, to have such a huge error in the first para gives a pretty good indication of what might follow, and the fact that maybe you need to educate yourself a little better before taking links at face value, let alone recommending them as good resources..

If you have anything new to add to the Kumburgaz case, which has been well and truly flogged to within an inch of its life here and elsewhere, then please start a separate thread. But do your homework first.

JayUtah
2011-Oct-11, 04:13 PM
"TUBITAK" The Science and Technology Research Board of Turkey (a Scientific Institution owned by the state that is highly reliable and influential) National Observatory (TUG)

...an assertion that is trumpeted every time the organization is mentioned. Why must it be emphasized so?

I read the English translation of their two-page report, and it is largely worthless. The organization may indeed be highly regarded within Turkey, but their analysis in this case is simply a manifest of easily-determined facts in the best case, and patently assertive propositions in the worst case.

The third bullet point asserts that the footage is "genuine," without defining what is meant by that, and further asserts that it is not the product of studio scale photography, computer generated imagery, or of "special video effects." The report does not give any indication of what methods were used to determine this, nor how the assertive findings are supported by the purported ruling out of certain vaguely specified techniques.

The report is ultimately inconclusive -- appropriately so, given the shallowness of the examination and the lack of any discernible methodology.

The measure of the scientific validity of any research is its inherent conformance to scientific standards, not whether it has been produced by an organization of some particular stature. I see nothing in the links that would be considered scientifically valid. It's simply supposition and wishful thinking.

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-12, 11:00 AM
Greetings from Turkey,Late reply to everyone, first I apologize for

I found on google earth the distance with the ruler tool.
TUBITAK and scientific institutions like the first letter I sent before.

Their response (bilgiedinme@tubitak.gov.tr​​) September 29, 2011
Access to Information Act
be answered about any of the issues is not detected.
not respond to your application.
FYI.

In addition, the website I wrote this I experienced Dogg Akdogan
http://www.siriusufo.org/tr/

In addition, NASA and SETI scientists submitted it.
Again, I do not get an answer.

I do not believe in or not,
or anywhere in the world will go down longer until the close encounter with a space ship, a very normal thing now

I think this issue more exaggerated

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-12, 06:16 PM
I'm assuming the following is in response to my question in post #3...if it is not, my advance apologizes.


I found on google earth the distance with the ruler tool.

I just don't see how the ruler tool could be of any "help". If you do not know the size of the object, how could you determine it's distance?

Please clarify.

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-13, 07:56 AM
I found matching the geographic characteristics of the place I've seen on google earth.
Such an evaluation to pee I can see very closely with the size and height measured.

See the attached pictures

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-13, 08:45 PM
I found matching the geographic characteristics of the place I've seen on google earth.
Such an evaluation to pee I can see very closely with the size and height measured.

See the attached pictures

How is this relevant to the question I asked?

How were you able to determine the size/distance of this "object", when you don't know what the object was??

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-14, 08:31 AM
We saw the picture I marked pee anywhere between two hills above the top of the glass top we could see full-filled and

When you find the same location between two hills on google earth does not give us the diameter of the object


Answers from other scientific institutions in the world would like to share with you the other.

Kimden: Jon Richards <jrichards@seti.org>
Konu: Re: an unusual UFO event TURKEY KASTAMONU ANDIRAZ
Kime: "celalettin karag l" <celalett@yahoo.com>
Tarihi: 11 Ekim 2011 Salı, 13:24


Celalettin,

At the SETI Institute we do not deal with UFO sightings. We are involved with the science of detecting signals from other places in our galaxy.

I would suggest you visit http://www.nuforc.org/ and file a report.

Jon Richards


Hi John
You are right, but we saw him very near us, then look no signal to search very far.

Maybe still is receiving Andıraz.

Set up a mechanism for us to listen?

Objects we see around us that a scientific study to be done?

Best Regards,
Celalettin Karagül
/////////
I understand ,
SETI : I understand, we are engaged with the world other than the UFO
////////
*****************************************

Dear witness,
Unfortunately, action of GEIPAN is strictly limited to the french territory. French observations require a very important attention, which does not leave any place to what happens on other countries.
We hope you will understand it.

With best regards,

GEIPAN

/////////
I understand ,
GEIPAN : I understand,
We're looking at UFOs in France
////////
*****************************************

Please submit your sighting report online at http://www.mufon.com/reportufo.html . In order for MUFON to do a complete and thorough investigation, we will need you to report it online and include any photos or videos as attachments to your report. We will then forward them to photo analysts for further review. We also need you to document these reports into our CMS database in order for us to compare and coordinate the sightings/incidents with other similar cases in the area. You may choose to remain anonymous if you want to.



~ If you would like to research reported sightings in our Case Management System, please go to http://www.mufon.com/mufonreports.html Make sure you type in the correct parameters that you are wanting to investigate (i.e., Date Submitted, Date of event, Event State, etc.) although not all search fields are required in order to begin your search.

~ If you are interested in becoming a Certified MUFON Field Investigator, please go to our website and review the information page: http://www.mufon.com/BecomeAFieldInvestigator.html Please contact your State Director with any questions you have about becoming a Field Investigator.

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~ You may also join in our forums free! We have many different subjects, topics and areas of research for you to chat with others who have the same interests as you!

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Good luck and keep your eyes and cameras to the skies!





*Please understand we often have dozens reports a day from all over the world, so we cannot always respond personally to these requests. We apologize that we cannot always respond, but we do receive and read all your emails!

Sincerely,
Patti Wolff
Patti@mufon.com
MUFON Business Office Manager
MUFON International Headquarters
2619 W. 11th Street Road Ste 21
Greeley, CO 80634
(o) 888 817 2220
(o) 970 352 5319
////////
I understand,
UFO wage demands from me to see that
//////

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-14, 03:45 PM
I suspect this is a language "problem", and an innocent one at that. I just don't know how to rephrase the question to get my point across.

Any "help" would be appreciated.

Luckmeister
2011-Oct-14, 04:35 PM
I suspect this is a language "problem", and an innocent one at that. I just don't know how to rephrase the question to get my point across.

Any "help" would be appreciated.

I think ANDIRAZ should try to find someone fluent in English to help write posts. They're very hard to figure out.

I didn't know MUFON does not require identification to file a UFO report. That explains a lot doesn't it?

Don J
2011-Oct-16, 03:54 AM
Greetings from Turkey,Late reply to everyone, first I apologize for

I found on google earth the distance with the ruler tool.
TUBITAK and scientific institutions like the first letter I sent before.

Their response (bilgiedinme@tubitak.gov.tr​​) September 29, 2011
Access to Information Act
be answered about any of the issues is not detected.
not respond to your application.
FYI.

In addition, the website I wrote this I experienced Dogg Akdogan
http://www.siriusufo.org/tr/

In addition, NASA and SETI scientists submitted it.
Again, I do not get an answer.

I do not believe in or not,

I do not believe in or not

Tell me if I get this right...

You were in some ways shocked by what you have experienced and probably get the feeling that something more than the simple observation may have happened . (strange impression...feeling...something like an hypnotic fascination when observing the object)

Luckmeister
2011-Oct-16, 07:14 AM
I do not believe in or not

Tell me if I get this right...

You were in some ways shocked by what you have experienced and probably get the feeling that something more than the simple observation may have happened . (strange impression...feeling...something like an hypnotic fascination when observing the object)

Someone trying to investigate asks, "What did you feel?"

Someone trying to plant a suggestion says, "You probably felt this, didn't you?"

Have you ever heard of "baiting the witness?"

Don J
2011-Oct-16, 06:34 PM
Someone trying to investigate asks, "What did you feel?"

Someone trying to plant a suggestion says, "You probably felt this, didn't you?"

No, the way I ask is rather giving a choice of answers to the question "What was your feeling about the observation ?" the response may very well be nothing of the sort .



Have you ever heard of "baiting the witness?"

No !Never heard about that expression.

Garrison
2011-Oct-16, 07:18 PM
No, the way I ask is rather giving a choice of answers to the question "What was your feeling about the observation ?" the response may very well be nothing of the sort .

You're 'options' all leant towards a particular interpretation, a clear attempt to 'lead the witness' in the direction you wanted things to go. This sort of contamination by, let's say 'interviewers' for convenience, when questioning witnesses is one of the things that makes eyewitness testimony so unreliable, but then you've rejected such ideas in the past Don J so I doubt you will accept them this time.

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-17, 08:12 AM
How is this relevant to the question I asked?

How were you able to determine the size/distance of this "object", when you don't know what the object was??

We see these objects very closely.
Coming down to touch the floor, where the rise, maneuvers, and we see the area covered.
Then the location of these places on google eart match.
We do not know what it is but my opinion is already in the world that there is such an aircraft.

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-17, 01:11 PM
This issue from someone else hear the forum would not believe without proof.

Here we have evidence of two witnesses, I am 46 years old, graduated from the university.

Computer programmer.

I have started my company.

Live event, the relevance of no interest to me until the day my curiosity in these matters, did not.

A farmer living in the village primary school graduates, the other witness.

The spacecraft approached the area where evidence is perhaps

examination of research is unknown.

In my struggle by an institution of this event in my scientific
examination.

I think that the results of benefit to humanity.

Why is so much closer to that area and stayed there?

Why we came upon us and stayed for a while?

HenrikOlsen
2011-Oct-17, 03:23 PM
Computer programmer.

I have started my company.
Me too. Hi.

I know I can't believe what my eyes tell me all the time, because I've taken the time to study why I can't believe what my eyes tell me.
I wouldn't bet anything on my ability to guess size and distance of things without knowing what they are, because I know I can't.

Luckmeister
2011-Oct-17, 04:59 PM
This issue from someone else hear the forum would not believe without proof.

Here we have evidence of two witnesses, I am 46 years old, graduated from the university.


Not believe what? That you saw something you can't explain? I have no problem believing that.

R.A.F.
2011-Oct-17, 05:54 PM
This issue from someone else hear the forum would not believe without proof.

...and we're still waiting for that evidence.


Here we have evidence of two witnesses, I am 46 years old, graduated from the university. Computer programmer. I have started my company...snip....A farmer living in the village primary school graduates, the other witness.

Eyewitness testimony is notorious for being unreliable.

Now I'm not saying that you or the other witness are lying, only mistaken when assuming that what you saw was an "Alien space ship".

For instance...


The spacecraft approached the area where evidence is perhaps

Why the assumption that what you saw was a spacecraft???


I think that the results of benefit to humanity.

On what basis do you make that assumption?

JayUtah
2011-Oct-17, 08:40 PM
I know the scientific method need something repeatable in order to arrive to a conclusion.
So,how can you apply the scientific method to the observation made by ANDIRAZ?

That's actually a very good question. Thanks for asking it.

Happenstance events are those that occur without warning. Because we don't know the time or place when they will occur, we cannot often instrument the environment properly to record information to help us understand why they happened. We have to rely principally on eyewitness testimony and whatever documentary or circumstantial evidence we can find. There is no guarantee in any case that the available evidence will support a conclusion. But even the best informed conclusion requires an inductive leap. Investigative science differs in this way from scientific inquiry, and has more in common with a legal inquiry.

First, understand that "repeatable" has two meanings in this discussion. The general repeatability requirement in the scientific method means to say that a valid experiment can't rely on factors that can't be duplicated by another scientist. For example, if you know that the mechanism your experiment relies on is sensitive to temperature, then part of your experiment has to be to record the temperature along with your observation, so that it can be factored into the analysis. Some other scientist in a colder climate might perform your same experiment and use his colder temperature readings to reconcile his results with yours. So part of reproducibility means taking into account all that will have to be measured, even if it's not the exact thing you're studying. It's repeatable if there are no hidden factors.

And you can't rely on subjective judgments or other things that legitimately change from circumstance to circumstance. You have to devise a way of measuring all the values you propose to obtain, such that they come out the same for each experimenter. You can't say, "Hm, that water looks pretty clean to me." You have to think of a way of measuring the cleanliness of the water so that the outcome doesn't depend on your personal opinion of cleanliness. Where the desired value is inherently subjective, such as, "Is this a yummy sandwich?" then you average the opinions of many people, in the hopes that another researcher elsewhere can draw a similar sample of people and get a similar average of subjective opinions.

The point of reproducibility in the scientific method is to make sure that everything that is known to affect the outcome of an experiment has been suitably described and analyzed. Another experimenter should be able to set up an identical experiment using nothing but your description of your method.

Reproducibility does not necessarily mean reproduction, and that's where people become confused as the scientific method applies to post hoc investigation. An experiment does not need to be reproduced in order to be considered reproducible. As a practical matter we don't rely on scientific findings until they have been reproduced by other researchers, but that's only because reproduction is the final acid test of reproducibility. Reproducibility is determined by the design of the experiment, by careful thought.

The cause-and-effect reasoning that we sometimes do in investigative research is based on previous reproducible experiments. When we interview eyewitnesses and later analyze their depositions, we apply lessons learned in reproducible academic research over the years. We don't repeat those experiments. But we use their findings.

Much more so for the circumstantial evidence. Reproducible experiments show us, for example, how mechanical gauges behave in a plane crash, and whether the engine was operating by how much of different kinds of ground material was ingested on impact. We do small-scale experiments with controlled circumstances to teach us what effects arise from what causes. Then when all we have to observe are the effects, we can make a good determination of likely causes.

But not all incidents that interest us are composed of prior causes and effects. Causal chains overlap. Previously unknown ones arise and combine in unexpected ways. We can't just look up observed effect in a big book of prior art and read off the likely causes. Well, actually that's exactly what we do in some cases, but that's not a guarantee of understanding the entire event. Hence many investigations will try to reproduce key elements of the event according to various hypotheses to see if some of the effects can be reproduced. That's a different usage of reproducibility than is meant by the scientific method. In most cases we can't reproduce entire incidents because we don't know all the initial conditions and contributing factors, and we don't have the resources to reproduce the events at a useful scale.

Every piece of machinery has its own idiom of failure. If I'm looking at an industrial accident, I might suspect that a loss of hydraulic pressure caused a mechanical failure. If I'm lucky, instrumentation would be available to record pressure at the time of the accident. But failing that, I'd have to rely on eyewitness testimony: was anyone watching the gauge? What exactly fell on what, and when? A fallen piece of broken machinery and an abraded hydraulic hose can be read two ways: hose failed, and resulting loss of hydraulic pressure caused machinery to fall and break; or piece of machinery suffered mechanical failure and broke, and in the fall it scraped against the hydraulic hose.

They're probably not going to let us simulate a full-scale failure again in context, and we wouldn't necessarily be able to set up all the initial conditions faithfully. But if we noticed that two of the hoses are zip-tied together, we might hypothesize that vibration in the hose is the culprit. (Hydraulic hoses sometimes bounce around as the pressure in them suddenly rises and falls during normal operation.) And we can set up a bench test with surviving remnants of the hose. If we cycle pressure in one of them but not the other, and note that the hoses rub against each other, and note further after an accelerated cycle test that significant new wear is observed in the hose, we can consider that evidence in favor of a hydraulic-first failure.

Whether that experiment itself is reproducible in the scientifically pure sense is not really as important in this context as it would be in a more academic setting. We are solving a very specific problem, not the general problem of loss-of-pressure accidents in fluid-power systems. Knowing that the client's particular brand of hose, at that particular age in those particular circumstances, can fail in a way solely explainable by evidence found at the scene, helps us understand that better. Yes, in the larger sense we apply those findings to safety in general. When I do a machine inspection, I can write down to check for how the hydraulic hoses are routed to avoid that particular type of failure.

Attempting to reproduce key elements of an incident as predicted by some hypothesis helps test the hypothesis. We will never know if the hypothesized mechanism is really what played out. That's because we can't replay history exactly in all its details, even if we had the resources. We'll never know if we got everything right.

This is essentially the same for UFO sightings. We can test various hypotheses using reproducible methods and hoping to achieve meaningful (if perhaps only partial) results. We can, for example, rule out Venus in some cases because we have the ability to reliably predict where Venus will be in the sky as seen from some particular time and place. People have reproduced the Hills' car trip and discovered that the problematic claims of expected travel time versus measured travel time are not as acute as once believed. We can partially reproduce via photography the behavior of flares that were seen in Arizona. We can release Chinese lanterns intentionally and photograph them or subject them to unsuspecting witnesses.

But these are merely experimental (and often reasonably reproducible) methods of testing mundane hypotheses. In some cases we can use the experiment to conclusively rule out a mundane hypothesis because it reliably fails to reproduce the sighting. In some cases we can reliably rule one in, such as ghostly "orbs," which I can reproduce at will using my small snapshot camera and a mundane handful of dust that's invisible until the flash hits it. If we can't think of a hypothesis to test, we can't use the scientific method to test it, even at the small scale. And real life is full of stuff we just can't think of. Not all causes leave side-effects that we can test for. Not all natural or man-made effects can be reproduced at will. Ball lightning is a real phenomenon, but we can't make it appear whenever and wherever we want. So we can't produce it at the same place later, and ask a witness if that's what she saw.

We don't have any way of testing the farfetched hypotheses. There isn't enough for science to reproducibly grab hold of. If someone hypothesizes that invisible elves snuck in and cut the hydraulic hose, the first thing I'll need to know is what would be a reproducible, useful test for invisible elves. Human vandals leave footprints, fingerprints, and images on surveillance cameras. If those things don't hold true for elves, and no one is sure what would, then we have a hypothesis that can't be reproducibly and reliably tested. And so it's useless from the point of view of scientific methodology.

That's what several UFO fanatics seem to want to do. They tell us that if the cause were space aliens, the observations could be literally anything. This is not a basis from which any rational identification can be made. But it is a basis upon which they can appear to stump scientists, whereupon they can declare that the scientific method (i.e., the "limited" and narrow view of mainstream science) has failed. Yes, it's very easy to stump the scientific method by setting silly constraints and assumptions.


Remember he is looking for an answer about his observation ?

The present state of the evidence means he probably won't get an answer. Most don't. That's why this is a vexing problem for some people. They want answers, and they're frustrated when they can't get an answer with any confidence to it. Confidence comes from the ability to examine the evidence closely and well, which in turn is a function of reproducibility. But that's rarely available in UFO sightings.

We can, for example, hypothesize some meteorological cause. But we would have no way to test that cause-and-effect. We could at best compare it to previous happenstance meteorological phenomena and hope it rings a bell. We can explore variations on the interpretation of the eyewitness testimony in hopes of extracting from it a more reasonable or comprehensible spatial correlation. But we have no way to test that hypothesis either.

The general untestability of hypotheses in UFO sightings (mundane or otherwise) is why science is content to say they can't explain it.

ANDIRAZ
2011-Oct-18, 09:11 AM
I experienced that day, and the environment, Turkish and in English translation as I would like to write in more detail.

information on environmental and INDIVIDUAL

I live in Istanbul, my uncle in a remote village in the Kastamonu

Write next to her on holidays to visit for a week and go to stay alone with nature.

My interest in UFOs after the incident that occurred in my live.

UFO no idea if my uncle who live permanently in a non-farming people in that village.

ANDIRAZ name of the village, the nearest settlement with a population of 4600 there is a small town 55 km away

up to 300 people can go to the summer population of this village, about 90 real-indigenous population

The purpose of any vehicle carrying people to come here just to bring income to the village.

At other times, the vehicle does not pass this way to the village.

Geographical location of the village 70-80 km long, is painted in the valley at an altitude of 1250 at the foot of the mountains ILGAZ.

Only in this village illuminates the sky, moon and stars at night.

Milky Way very clearly visible here.

Development of the event

Around when the event occurred at 23:30 at night
The right to move out of the village were on a walk.
Drew attention to the direction of a light orange-sized North
Up to 30 minutes away from the village in a mountainous area, we continued to walk.


Valleys formed by streams from the top to cut off our path from time to time.
Our field of vision up to 1-2 meters, coming down in such situations.
At the time, could not even see the northern lights pee.

In this way, we passed two river bed and took about 5 minutes

Then both our view ahead opened and re-entered the north-light body.

But after that moment, a very interesting chain of events began.
He has reached the size of the illuminated object at a time months.
Color and shape as the moon looked a lot.

Then he rolled down the hill body,
has returned to the pit, sat down on the following


Become the largest paintings depicted here as I have reached.
For a while stopped for 5-6 seconds.
Much closer to the ground as we landed almost shocked.
At the same time we could see the top of the mountain.
Too strong a light ring around on the spot to spread a variety of colors caught my attention.
Then he rose and moved 300 meters from the northern line.
(If you would beat up the hill in front elevation)
Immediately after sliding in the direction of south-east came upon us.

I saw this time was 4-5 seconds under full upon us.
Two of these rings have impressed me the red ring and have a depth of
Do you not remember the exact way out in the rings with oval eyes were green and blue light.
Here's something interesting in the body than if it had something running towards me.
Pull me towards him, I got the feeling even for a moment.

Hunting rifle hanging on my shoulder with my hand went reflexively created by fear.
I did not see that moment again and then pee.
According to the testimony of his uncle was standing in front of me a full body that appear on our north-east went missing over the last hill.


These events took place within seconds, but watching a film in slow motion, I get that feeling came to me a lot longer.


O gün yaşadıklarımı ve çevreyi, türkçe ve ingilizce çeviri olarak daha detaylı bir şekilde yazmak istiyorum.

çevre ve kişesel bilgiler

Ben İstanbul'da yaşıyorum,dayım ise kastamonu da ücra bir köyde

Yaz tatillerimde bir haftalığına onun yanına ziyaret ve doğa ile baş başa kalmak için giderim.

Benim UFO ilgim bu yaşadığımız olaydan sonra meydana geldi.

Dayım ise UFO konusunda hiçbir fikri olmayan çiftcilik yapan o köyde sürekli yaşayan bir kişi.

ANDIRAZ köyün adı,en yakın yerleşim yeri 4600 nüfuslu küçük bir kasaba oraya 55 km uzaklıkta

bu köyün nüfusu ise yazın 300 kişiye kadar çıkabiliyor, gerçek yerli nüfus 90 civarında

Buraya herhangi bir taşıt sadece köye gelme amacı taşıyan kişileri getirmek için gelir.

Diğer zamanlarda taşıt geçmez bu köyün yollarından.

Köyün coğrafi konumu 70-80 km uzunluğunda Boyalı vadisi içinde ILGAZ dağlarının eteğinde 1250 rakımda dır.

Geceleri bu köyü sadece gökyüzündeki ay ve yıldızlar aydınlatır.

Samanyolu burada çok net görünür.

Olayın Gelişimi

Olayın meydana geldiği gece saat 23:30 sularında
Dolaşmak için köyün dışına doğru yürüyüşe çıkmıştık.
Kuzey doğrultusundaki portakal büyüklüğündeki bir ışık dikkatimizi çekmişti
30 dakika kadar dağlık bir alanda köyden uzaklaşarak,yürümeye devam ettik.

Yolumuz yukardan gelen derelerin oluşturduğu vadilerle zaman zaman kesiliyordu.
Böyle durumlarda görüş alanımız 1-2 metreye kadar iniyordu.
O zamanlar kuzeydeki ışıklı cisimide göremiyorduk.

Bu şekilde iki tane dere yatağından geçtik 5 dakika kadar sürdü

Sonra hem önümüz açıldı hem kuzeydeki ışıklı cisim görüş alanımıza tekrar girdi.

Fakat o andan sonra çok ilginç olaylar zinciri başladı.

O Işıklı cisim bir anda ay büyüklüğüne ulaştı.

Renk ve şekil olarak da aya çok benziyordu.

Sonra o cisim tepeden aşağı yuvarlanarak,dönerek geldi ve aşağıdaki çukurun üstüne oturdu.

Burada en büyük haline ulaştı resimlerde tasvir ettiğim gibi.
Bir süre 5-6 saniye durdu.

Yere çok yaklaşması bizi şoke etti nerdeyse indi gibi.

Aynı zamanda dağın üst kısmını görebiliyorduk.

Durduğu yerde çok kuvvetli çeşitli renklerden oluşan bir ışık halkası yayması dikkatimiz çekti.

Sonra biraz yükseldi ve kuzey doğrultusunda 300 metre hareket etti.

(Eğer yükselmese önündeki tepeye çarpardı)

Hemen peşinden güney doğu yönünde kayarak üstümüze geldi.

Üstümüzde 4-5 saniye kaldı bu sefer tam altından görüyordum.
Beni etkileyen iki tane kırmızı halka ve bu halkalar arasında bir derinlik olması
Halkaların içinde mi dışında mı tam hatırlayamıyorum oval şekilde yeşil ve mavi şekilde ışıklı gözler vardı.
Burda dikkatimi çeken bir şey daha sanki cisim den bana doğru akan bir şey vardı.
Hatta bir an beni kendisine doğru çekecek hissi aldım.
Korkunun yarattığı refleksle elim omzumda asılı olan av tüfeğime gitti.
Ben o andan sonra cisimi tekrar göremedim.
Dayım tam karşımda duruyordu onun ifadesine göre cisim kuzey doğu tarafımızda görünen en son tepenin üzerinden kayıp gitmiş.

Bu olaylar saniyeler içinde gerçekleşti ama ben ağır çekimde bir filim seyrediyormuş hissine kapıldım bana çok daha uzun geldi.

Swift
2011-Oct-19, 12:35 PM
OK - FULL STOP

This is ANDIRAZ's thread - he started it about a particular incident and is still participating. It has been completely hijacked by the discussion with Don J. I do not want to see a single other post unless it directly related to the OP. This entire side discussion, from both sides, is to stop at once.

I don't have time now to sort through this whole mess and separate the two discussion - either I or another moderator will do it later.

Swift
2011-Oct-19, 03:21 PM
I have split off the entire discussion on UFOs and observers, as best as I could, to their own thread (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/122764-UFOs-and-Observers). If there is a very critical post that is in the wrong thread, Report that post and we can try to move it back.

This thread is ONLY for the discussion of ANDIRAZ's UFO observation.