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grapes
2011-Nov-10, 06:15 PM
Just so we focus on what is important: NY Times: Thousands of Students Riot After Paterno Is Ousted (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-students-riot-after-joe-paterno-is-ousted.html)

Last line:
“My friends were like, ‘I don’t want to get maced,’” he said. “I was like, ‘I don’t want to miss seeing this, so I guess that means I do kind of want to get maced.’”

Mark Zuckerberg, sensing an opportunity, is starting Macebook

NEOWatcher
2011-Nov-10, 07:01 PM
Just so we focus on what is important: NY Times: Thousands of Students Riot After Paterno Is Ousted (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/sports/ncaafootball/penn-state-students-riot-after-joe-paterno-is-ousted.html)
I'm "like" not sure what you are "like" thinking is what's "like" important.

I'm not sure if I'm walking down the wrong path, so I'll just make 2 comments.
1) Kent State 1970.
2) If the parties affected don't have a big issue, then why should the public get so upset?

grapes
2011-Nov-10, 07:20 PM
Penn St. football team is winning this year, bad time to fire a football coach. From the point of view of the football.

starcanuck64
2011-Nov-10, 08:13 PM
Some people take their football pretty seriously, this is the kind of story you usually get with original football in Latin America.

The Backroad Astronomer
2011-Nov-10, 08:20 PM
Here in Canada some people take hockey very seriously as well.

Fazor
2011-Nov-10, 08:21 PM
Just a bunch of college kids looking for an excuse to be stupid. In other news, the earth is round and rain is wet.

nosbig5
2011-Nov-10, 08:43 PM
People here in central PA are going crazy. You can't turn around without wakling into a Penn State grad in this area, and over the last few days I've been amazed at the number of people who have been defending the school, particularly Paterno. The local alumni form a tight knot of impenetrability when it comes to any discussion of wrongdoing by PSU.

Buttercup
2011-Nov-10, 11:09 PM
...and if Paterno were a Roman Catholic priest or Protestant minister, there would be NO support for him.

Just sayin'.

Considering all the allegations against him, I couldn't justify sticking up for him. Innocent until proven guilty sure; but there is a lot of smoke...(and there must be a fire).

HenrikOlsen
2011-Nov-10, 11:41 PM
...and if Paterno were a Roman Catholic priest or Protestant minister, there would be NO support for him.

Just sayin'.

Considering all the allegations against him, I couldn't justify sticking up for him. Innocent until proven guilty sure; but there is a lot of smoke...(and there must be a fire).
Erhm, isn't the thing he's being blamed for to report an abuse incidence to his superior, rather than to the police?
What smoke is that? And what fire are you trying to insinuate here?

If anyone should be in trouble it should be Tim Curley for not following up on his report.

And for that matter, why are you painting protestant ministers with the catholic priest brush? You'd be better of targeting the Boy Scouts.

Jim
2011-Nov-11, 12:25 AM
Let's not target anybody.

novaderrik
2011-Nov-11, 01:09 AM
Erhm, isn't the thing he's being blamed for to report an abuse incidence to his superior, rather than to the police?
What smoke is that? And what fire are you trying to insinuate here?

If anyone should be in trouble it should be Tim Curley for not following up on his report.

And for that matter, why are you painting protestant ministers with the catholic priest brush? You'd be better of targeting the Boy Scouts.

he's getting the boot because he new something was going on with someone on his staff, and he did the bare minimum he had to do to try to cover his own butt.. any human being with any sense of decency would have followed up and gone straight to the cops once he figured out that it stopped at the guy he reported to.. and we're not talking trivial stuff here like buying lunch for a college athlete- the one guy was molesting little boys in the athletic facilities. .repeatedly.. over a period of at least a decade. anyone that had any suspicions that this was going on was morally obligated to take this to the highest authorities they could get it to- and that most definitely goes beyond the boundaries of the college..
but, nope.. he figured that the athletic department- and the football team specifically- had to avoid the negative press. he put a freakin schoolyard game above the well being of kids.. and for that he can never be dealt a punishment severe enough.
i just read an article that said that the person in question was allegedly also pimping out the same kids he was molesting to big dollar donors in exchange for money for the college and athletic department. this is gonna get a lot bigger before it goes away...

jfribrg
2011-Nov-11, 03:04 AM
I live squarely in Penn State territory and judging from my discussions with folks and listening to sports radio (and other radio as well) I have not heard of anyone supporting Paterno or saying that the reaction was overblown. I suspect that the kids protesting will in a few years come to understand how wrong they were. Every comment I've heard on the radio was that Joe had to go before Saturday's game and should have been fired on Monday. There is even talk of forfeiting the final 3 games. I cannot imagine what everyone was thinking when they decided not to inform the police. It would have been so easy if JoePa had called police instead of calling the school president. If he had done that then he would be a hero and his reputation as the pillar of the community would have been validated. What worries me is the fact that his assistant witnessed one of the crimes as it was being committed in 2002 but did not intervene. Was he afraid of losing his job if the team's reputation is tarnished? Is Paterno a heavy-handed micromanager who would punish him for bypassing the coach? Had this been happening for year and the 2002 incident was no different than dozens that had occurred before? Perhaps Sandusky had some embarrasing photos of JoePA and/or the school president. All of this was happening at the same time that the church scandal was in the news, so the severe negative consequences of covering up child abuse was obvious to everyone during the time that JoePa was covering this up. The whole mess is a terrible tragedy. I'm glad that the board of trustees started at the top and fired the President and the coach, but by next year, the entire football staff and security staff needs to be shown the door as well. My daughter wants to attend Penn State in a couple of years. I'm not sure I would want her to attend a school that does not consider sexual abuse to be serious. I know that I cannot trust the crime statistics that the school is required by law to report.

Fazor
2011-Nov-11, 02:49 PM
I won't defend JoPa, and I'm not going to persecute him either. Wasn't there; don't know exactly what happened. At least he reported it to *someone*, but how do you go on seeing that person still on your campus for 10+ years? The complaint that did go to the police was dropped by the prosecutor. Did JoPa see that, and think if the law dropped that one, there must not really be anything that went on?

Again, I'm not excusing it. And he *did* have to be fired. Had to. No way the program could operate with him there and this stuff going on. But while I think he handled it wrong, I don't necessarily think he's a bad person, or was simply being self-absorbed by not wanting to damage his program at the expense of the victims. I really can't say.

That said; I listen to sports talk radio at work (because music radio is awful, unless you want to hear the same 4 songs on repeat all day.) The last three days have literally been 8 hours straight of nothing but Penn State talk across four separate programs that span that time slot. Ugh. I'm sick of hearing it. Let the law take over, and go back to talking about sports.

Buttercup
2011-Nov-11, 03:01 PM
Good grief, you'd think it was the President of the USA in this scandal. :hand:

Sports are WAY overrated.

Too bad more people can't get excited for cancer research or space exploration...

NEOWatcher
2011-Nov-11, 03:19 PM
Good grief, you'd think it was the President of the USA in this scandal. :hand:
Worse; We have had presidential scandals in the past that didn't equal this kind of reaction.

It kind of fits in what I was thinking with Jim's warning.

Let's not target anybody.

It's not so much what you do or who you are, but how widely known and "beloved" you are.
Presidents don't seem to rank as high in the "beloved" department as celebs or (winning) sports figures.

Buttercup
2011-Nov-11, 03:37 PM
It's not so much what you do or who you are, but how widely known and "beloved" you are.
Presidents don't seem to rank as high in the "beloved" department as celebs or (winning) sports figures.

Yep. And I can't for the life of me imagine why, in most instances. Because many of them are total jerks who most fans wouldn't be able to stomach if in a different context (their boss, an in-law, etc.).

Doodler
2011-Nov-11, 03:52 PM
Keep in mind, on campuses with competitive programs, sports ARE religion, with all the associated blind fantaticism that goes along with it. It is its own little microcosm of existance largely cut off from reality. Even on matters with a LOT less gravitas than this, sports mania affects people on a disturbing scale. Example, for a couple years here in Maryland, you didn't take a blue car within MILES of the University of Maryland when Duke was in town. You'd be lucky if all you had to replace was glass and rubber.

Its a cult of personality mixed with alcohol and youthful ignorance, and God help you if you stand in its way.

Fazor
2011-Nov-11, 03:56 PM
Sports are WAY overrated.


Yes, sports are overrated. But are you saying that this crime against children, and the fact that these people let it continue / covered it up isn't important since sports don't matter? It's not about it being connected to Football. It's about a horrible act against children that should have been stopped a long, long time ago. (ETA: <HelenLovejoy>Won't somebody PLEASE think of the children?!</HelenLovejoy>

Buttercup
2011-Nov-11, 03:59 PM
I agree, Doodler.

What currently disturbs me in this is the seeming overall LACK of sympathy for the accusers. As if Paterno *Is God* or something (above suspicion, doubt, etc.).

*puke*

I'm not saying the man IS guilty. We do believe in "innocent before proven guilty."

But the lack of concern or sympathy for the MALE accusers, by other males, does surprise me. I thought only female accusers received this level of callous disregard...

Fazor
2011-Nov-11, 06:10 PM
But the lack of concern or sympathy for the MALE accusers, by other males, does surprise me. I thought only female accusers received this level of callous disregard...

I think the apparent lack of concern for the victims / people defending JoPa aren't really there. That was what I meant by my first post in this thread -- the majority of the kids protesting likely weren't doing it because they really felt sorry for JoPa. They were doing it because they're drunken, stupid college kids that just wanted to cause mayhem under any banner that presented itself.

As noted here, most people -- including die hard Penn St fans -- are very upset that this happened and the person that they should have trusted most to take care of it didn't. Initially, details were sketchy and it left room for some doubt about exactly how wrong JoPa was in his inaction. As more of us have gotten more of the details, I think very few people are actually still supporting him/upset about his firing.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-11, 08:40 PM
Good grief, there's a large anti-sportsman vibe here. What happened? Couldn't make the team? Get dumped by a jock?

NEOWatcher
2011-Nov-11, 09:20 PM
Good grief, there's a large anti-sportsman vibe here. What happened? Couldn't make the team? Get dumped by a jock?
No, it's the over-idolizing of sports celebs.

jfribrg
2011-Nov-11, 09:23 PM
The rioting that occurred can be understood in the context of Penn State being the #2 party college in the country. Most of the students that go there are there for the fun. There is a minority of students who get a very decent education. Most of these attend the "honors college". I doubt if many of the rioters were from the honors college. Most of the other students are more interested in the partying and supporting The Team. The school is well aware that their financial well-being depends on having a football team good enough to attract 110,000 fans to every home game, and attract enough parents willing to pay for a year or two of partying before the students flunk out. At Penn State, football is everything. All of these considerations no doubt influenced the various individuals who decided to ignore the law in dealing with these allegations.

Fazor
2011-Nov-11, 09:23 PM
Good grief, there's a large anti-sportsman vibe here. What happened? Couldn't make the team? Get dumped by a jock? (Not sure if you're lumping me in there because I agree sports are over rated, but in case) I'm a *huge* sports fan. It's about the only thing I watch on tv. I just paid for my season tickets for the local MLS team's season (next year.) I watch the Buckeyes every weekend, and the Browns whenever the program-deciding jerks at my local broadcast co decide to show it instead of the Bengals games which always seem to be on at the same time. I follow the Indians closely throughout the season, and I'll watch the Jackets games when I get a chance.

Still, sports *are* overrated. Or, more accurately to my opinion, given too much importance. I love sports, but they don't mean *anything*. They're just entertainment. Nothing more.

Doodler
2011-Nov-11, 09:32 PM
Good grief, there's a large anti-sportsman vibe here. What happened? Couldn't make the team? Get dumped by a jock?

To be fair, I have NOT seen anyone identifiable as a Penn State football player behaving like an idiot on camera. Now that this is out in the open, a lot of the players are quite rightly appalled. This isn't a bullet aimed at them, its the knuckleheads tipping news vans over in the courtyard. Even my own post wasn't aimed at student athletes....after all, they're a little busy playing the game to be out vandalizing cars.

They're the eye in the center of the hurricane, its the maelstrom of ego and booze swirling around them doing the real damage.

jfribrg
2011-Nov-11, 09:45 PM
Saturday's game against Nebraska is looking to be a disaster in the making. A large group of fans wearing blue in solidarity with the victims. Another white-clad group angry about JoePa being fired, and plenty of tailgating alcohol to get everyone in the mood for a fight. IMO, the game is only being played because Penn State can't afford to refund 110,000 tickets. They may come to regret it. Lets hope everything stays peaceful.

Doodler
2011-Nov-11, 09:52 PM
Penn State' put McQueary on administrative leave indefinitely, he'd already been told not to show up because of death threats against him. I can imagine there will be massive security on site to deal with any stupidity, and I will bet good money that anything that does happen is going to bring out the riot armored troops at the drop of a beer bottle.

Fazor
2011-Nov-11, 09:52 PM
Lets hope everything stays peaceful.
It better. The Big 10+1+1 doesn't need even more reason for the rest of the country to hate us.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-11, 09:55 PM
Good grief, there's a large anti-sportsman vibe here. What happened? Couldn't make the team? Get dumped by a jock?

How about the fact that competitive sports are given more budget in the high schools than any other extracurricular program, even ones which have a higher percentage of career opportunities? My best friend, when she was in grad school, did work study as a tutor for Pitt, and she mostly tutored athletes. And they mostly needed a lot of help. If they hadn't been athletes, most of them probably wouldn't have gotten into a four-year college out of high school. And most of them won't ever make a living at their game. Now, my friend was glad in that she needed the money that the tutoring job provided, but she was horrified at how much they had been allowed to neglect their actual educations just because they had skill at a game.

Actually, one of her classmates refused to believe her when she said that our alma mater as undergrads doesn't have a football team. However, when our mascot was chosen, it was believed that we would never have sports teams of any kind, and we still don't have athletic scholarships.

publius
2011-Nov-11, 10:14 PM
I'll tell you what Penn State ought to do, and that's what Tulane did back in the mid 80s with the basketball point-shaving scandal. They should just up and suspend the football program for a couple of years, getting rid of everybody, and then restart anew with new blood all around.

That would be a way to make it right as well as send a clear message about priorities. If I were on the boards in charge of all this, that's what I be demanding. They won't do anything like this because way too much money is involved.

-Richard

redshifter
2011-Nov-11, 11:18 PM
I'll tell you what Penn State ought to do, and that's what Tulane did back in the mid 80s with the basketball point-shaving scandal. They should just up and suspend the football program for a couple of years, getting rid of everybody, and then restart anew with new blood all around.

That would be a way to make it right as well as send a clear message about priorities. If I were on the boards in charge of all this, that's what I be demanding. They won't do anything like this because way too much money is involved.

-Richard

Yep. This goes WAY beyond football. PSU reputation is ruined for the foreseeable future. Rebuilding their tainted reputation, getting help for the victims, and filing criminal charges against those who warrant them are all vastly more important than football right now. Only way I can see to start on rebuilding their reputation is to totally shut down the football program and fire the entire staff while a thorough investigation is done. Maybe in a couple years they can start fresh.

Apparantly this scandal could get even worse but it's still in the 'rumor' stages so I won't elaborate. I did read the 23 page report. Incredibly chilling, horrifying, saddening...it makes me sick thinking about the victims and what they must be going through. I hope PSU does everything it can for them.

Trebuchet
2011-Nov-11, 11:52 PM
,,,when our mascot was chosen, it was believed that we would never have sports teams of any kind, and we still don't have athletic scholarships.

I didn't know they had a mascot and had to look it up. I had guessed it correctly.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-12, 01:53 AM
Yup. Apparently, there's footage somewhere of one of my old professors defending the choice in the days before it was official, in part on the grounds that (as if you needed something creepier about the thing) they're hermaphroditic.

Tobin Dax
2011-Nov-12, 03:23 AM
I didn't know they had a mascot and had to look it up. I had guessed it correctly.

I'm certain it's been mentioned before, because it came to my mind right away. I had to use it to look up the name of the college, as silly as it is to have forgotten it.

geonuc
2011-Nov-12, 07:07 AM
Sports overrated? I think the opposite, actually. I'm not a big sportsperson and I don't spend Saturday's in front of the TV watching my any of my alma mater's teams play (and one of them is bigger than Penn State in terms of football mania - Texas), but I do think team sports normally provides a healthy outlet for people. Normally. Riots, stabbings, muggings, corruption and all the rest are, in my mind, just side-effects caused by basic human nature that need to contained. Indeed, it has long been my opinion that the ultimate goal of any utopian society is for its citizens to be so free of drudgery and labor that they can pursue whatever leisure activities that please them. The human race is a long way from that, of course.

As to this particular campus unrest, I see it as a natural, if unfortunate, result of the events that unfolded and one that will stain the reputation of PSU but not irreparably. I seriously doubt that any significant number of the students who expressed their anger were endorsing child rape or condoning brushing it under the carpet in the name of their football program. They just have come to adore Joe Paterno and it is very hard to change such a sentiment quickly. And, mind you, I'm not saying they even should change their opinion of him to any great extent. The facts are not out there for me to judge him properly.

Buttercup
2011-Nov-12, 01:54 PM
I'm glad to see the Penn State students are finally coming out in support of the victims!

Yes, it's the victims who deserve support.

Not the perverts who victimized them!

ngc3314
2011-Nov-12, 04:29 PM
Keep in mind, on campuses with competitive programs, sports ARE religion, with all the associated blind fantaticism that goes along with it. It is its own little microcosm of existance largely cut off from reality. Even on matters with a LOT less gravitas than this, sports mania affects people on a disturbing scale...

It's a cult of personality mixed with alcohol and youthful ignorance, and God help you if you stand in its way.

How ridiculous. I simply can't imagine.

(Looks out office window across University of Alabama campus at tallest building in town, the stadium, noting statues of championship coaches at its entrance).

Never mind.

ngc3314
2011-Nov-12, 04:42 PM
They're the eye in the center of the hurricane, its the maelstrom of ego and booze swirling around them doing the real damage.

(Serious thread drift warning!)

Yeah - I've taught many scholarship athletes, and college sports programs don't come any bigger than ours. Thy are often the eye of the storm. In football, eight weekends a year, 150,000 fans converge on a town not that big (some not even needing a tickets, just hanging out for the atmosphere). Tens of millions of dollars change hands, the city economy couldn't survive without the games. Huge visibility for the university. And the only people not legally allowed to receive any of this money are the players. (To be fair, the athletic department here has a financial firewall from the rest of the University to avoid accusations, or the possibility, of directly siphoning money from academics. That , oddly enough, was put in place by the Bear himself).

As students, of course there's a wide range. Some are clearly here thinking they're in on the joke and sailing through, only to get a rude surprise when the re not drafted by the NFL (I gave one player a "so who's exploiting whom here?" talk). Some are diligent and eke out a degree on the state's dime, some are amazingly hard-working, bright and articulate. The coaches often try to isolate them all from fans during the season - after last week's loss to #1, our kicker had to pull down his Facebook page because of all the abuse he was getting. This can be a lot of pressure on 20-year-olds.

I do find swimmers to be very good students Maybe the extra oxygenation stays in the brain or something).

Buttercup
2011-Nov-12, 04:44 PM
I've always been a bit confused. Which is THE reason for universities and colleges?

Sports.

Education.

I thought primarily for education...oh well, what do I know? :doh:

publius
2011-Nov-12, 05:27 PM
Moody's has just put Penn State on credit review. Currently they're at one notch below AAA (all of the big three rating agencies have slightly different nomenclature. Moody's currently gives them Aa1). They have about $1B of debt outstanding and their bonds have been trading at about 3.6%ish yield of late (compare that to Italy and the rest of the PIIGS!). Anyway the joke is the job of the rating agencies is to come along after the battle and shoot the wounded.

Penn State has revenues of about $4.6B (note this puts their debt to income at 22%, which ain't bad), and according to the official budget, the football program contributes only 2% of that. I'd have to look at the figures in details, but I'm sure that's probably a narrow definition. At rate, *indirectly*, the football program is what draws in a lot of that revenue. If that didn't have the star football program, how much of the other sources would dry up. That's what Moody's is concerned with.

Penn State runs the Hershey Medical Center, which brings in about 26% of that $4.6B, 40% comes from tuition and other student fees, 7% comes from the state, and 19% comes from Federal research grants.

Anyway, Moody's little message should be received loud and clear by the board of trustees to get their act together. They need to send a strong message they're going to clean this up and rebuild their reputation. This is all the more reason to pull a Tulane and suspend the football program and restart it.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:13 PM
No, it's the over-idolizing of sports celebs.Jealousy.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Nov-12, 09:20 PM
I've always been a bit confused. Which is THE reason for universities and colleges?

Sports.

Education.

I thought primarily for education...oh well, what do I know? :doh:
It's my impression that sports scholarships originally was a way for poor smart students to get out of poverty by getting an education, but that idea got corrupted when big money got involved, so now it's been subverted as a way to get athletes through an education they have no aptitude for.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:31 PM
(Not sure if you're lumping me in there because I agree sports are over rated, but in case) No, I'm not. That's a separate issue, and a personal judgment.
The fact is a crime was committed and was then hushed up. Neither act is exclusive to sportsmen.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:33 PM
To be fair, I have NOT seen anyone identifiable as a Penn State football player behaving like an idiot on camera. Now that this is out in the open, a lot of the players are quite rightly appalled. This isn't a bullet aimed at them, its the knuckleheads tipping news vans over in the courtyard. Even my own post wasn't aimed at student athletes....after all, they're a little busy playing the game to be out vandalizing cars.

They're the eye in the center of the hurricane, its the maelstrom of ego and booze swirling around them doing the real damage.Yes, like others have said, students can be idiots at times. Like I was at that age.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:40 PM
How about the fact that competitive sports are given more budget in the high schools than any other extracurricular program, even ones which have a higher percentage of career opportunities? My best friend, when she was in grad school, did work study as a tutor for Pitt, and she mostly tutored athletes. And they mostly needed a lot of help. If they hadn't been athletes, most of them probably wouldn't have gotten into a four-year college out of high school. And most of them won't ever make a living at their game. Now, my friend was glad in that she needed the money that the tutoring job provided, but she was horrified at how much they had been allowed to neglect their actual educations just because they had skill at a game.

Actually, one of her classmates refused to believe her when she said that our alma mater as undergrads doesn't have a football team. However, when our mascot was chosen, it was believed that we would never have sports teams of any kind, and we still don't have athletic scholarships.Should selection should be brain based or sports based? My opinion is based on who owns the school. If it's a government (public) school, then the voters should decide. Personally I'm in favour of selecting on the basis of academic ability and not sporting ability. If it's a private school, then it's none of my business- they can do select on whatever criteria they want.

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:44 PM
I'll tell you what Penn State ought to do, and that's what Tulane did back in the mid 80s with the basketball point-shaving scandal. They should just up and suspend the football program for a couple of years, getting rid of everybody, and then restart anew with new blood all around.

That would be a way to make it right as well as send a clear message about priorities. If I were on the boards in charge of all this, that's what I be demanding. They won't do anything like this because way too much money is involved.

-RichardI've no idea what Tulane did back in the mid 80s (:)) but I agree with your gist. Get rid of everybody and start afresh. I don't know whether they should shut up shop for two whole years though. How long does it take to fire a department?

PraedSt
2011-Nov-12, 09:46 PM
I've always been a bit confused. Which is THE reason for universities and colleges?I think it should depend on who owns them.

publius
2011-Nov-12, 10:08 PM
I've no idea what Tulane did back in the mid 80s (:)) but I agree with your gist. Get rid of everybody and start afresh. I don't know whether they should shut up shop for two whole years though. How long does it take to fire a department?

It was a point-shaving scandal with their basketball team. There were 4 players involved, and one was indicted. They resigned the entire basketball staff and the athletic director and when the indictment came down, they just suspended the whole basketball program. At the time the president wanted to make it permanent -- never have another basketball program again -- but they restarted it a few years later.

Other schools have similiarly suspended varius programs after big scandal, sometimes voluntarily, sometime involuntarily. There was the "death penalty" handed down to SMU football back in the late 80s, where the NCAA suspended them for a whole season and restricted the next. The school just cancelled the next season as well. That just about destroyed SMU football, and they didn't have a winning season for another 20 years. SMU still has more NCAA violations than any other school I think. At any rate, I think the fallout to other schools and college football in general was judged so great that the NCAA decided never to "go nuclear" like that again.

publius
2011-Nov-12, 10:27 PM
One proposal for dealing with this I've seen and sort of favor is the separation of college football from college. :) Consider baseball. Colleges have baseball teams, but they aren't that a big of a deal, and the reason is the major league has its own professional minor league farm system.

Just do that with football. Let what is now big time college football become just a "minor league" for the NFL. And you could even let the various teams still use the college name (for which they'd pay a royalty). But the football team would be a separate entity. The players would be paid and end all the nonsense about them being "students" who aren't to be paid. If they want to go college, well do that separately.

That would make it official and legitimize what is actually is anyway. And it would take it out of the education system, removing all the temptations and conflicts.

novaderrik
2011-Nov-12, 11:18 PM
I've always been a bit confused. Which is THE reason for universities and colleges?

Sports.

Education.

I thought primarily for education...oh well, what do I know? :doh:

the sports are the public face of the college, which brings in money for the education.
in most cases, if the athletic department was to be shut down it would take most of the rest of a college with it.

TJMac
2011-Nov-13, 12:07 AM
Well, I am already tired of being reminded that Paterno is the longest/winning-est coach in college football. At this point I don't think he deserves the accolades. From the point where he let a human predator stay on his staff, with knowledge that things were amiss, in my opinion, those wins shouldn't count in the official book anymore.

Sad really, because he is a man that a lot of people looked up to, and now we realize he was willing to sacrifice innocent children so that his program appeared blameless. He didn't even have the class to resign when it all started coming to light. I would have at least given him some credit for an attempt at a graceful exit.

Now, it seems that his reputation will always be just that guy who let a child rapist keep on doing his thing. Yeah, I know he did the bare minimum legally required thing, and the guards in the concentration camps just followed orders.

The guy who witnessed it, and walked away to call his daddy... hmph, probably bannable offense if I mentioned what I think should happen to him.

At least Nebraska did better this week than they did last week. I was hoping for a more lopsided score.

TJ

Solfe
2011-Nov-13, 12:23 AM
What I don't understand is why they stopped with Joe Paterno? The administration of the school failed to follow up on his report. Why hasn't someone stepped in and fired the entire administration staff? They are even more to blame than Paterno, because they didn't follow up any more than he did. I suspect all staff at the school sign some document that says they will report to such abuses to their superiors.

I am not saying that what Paterno did was ok, what I can't understand is how can Penn State be allowed to operate in any capacity, as a football team or an educational institution.

Yes, I know there are billions of dollars on the line and thousands of students who will be injured if the school was closed, but in my mind, better safe than sorry.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 12:35 AM
I think it should depend on who owns them.

So you're perfectly okay with letting thousands of people spend, in many cases, taxpayer dollars training for something where they're not going to make a living or even a real contribution to society? Remember that most college athletes do not become professional athletes. Most college athletes are faced with a life they aren't prepared for in any way because they've spent all their time playing a game instead of getting an education, and there are simply not enough pro spots for the number of college athletes--just as there are not enough college spots for high school athletes. That's a waste of potential you're okay with, then?

Trebuchet
2011-Nov-13, 12:57 AM
the sports are the public face of the college, which brings in money for the education.
in most cases, if the athletic department was to be shut down it would take most of the rest of a college with it.

I think that's the case only for a very few colleges, actually. If any. Harvard and Caltech aren't going away if they don't have football. Nor are the vast majority of smaller schools.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Nov-13, 03:13 AM
Ok, so sports scholarships aren't about letting poor smart kids get an education. Check.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 03:15 AM
Shouldn't there be academic scholarships for that?

HenrikOlsen
2011-Nov-13, 10:06 AM
Shouldn't there be academic scholarships for that?
Definitely.
Are there?

kamaz
2011-Nov-13, 12:08 PM
It's not so much what you do or who you are, but how widely known and "beloved" you are.


That doesn't surprise me to the slightest. We've had a similar case a couple of years ago in my country. That one involved a director of a famous boy choir. The guy got arrested...

...and then it got weird. The next day, the parents of kids in the choir (i.e. the parents of his actual and potential victims) staged a protest outside the police station where he was held, demanding his release. When asked by a journalist why they were protesting, they said they did not believe the accusations. When the journalist cornered them saying that there was some really strong evidence (the guy was HIV-positive and some kids contracted HIV) the response was But thanks to him my kid is famous! He toured the world! He sang for the president! You are trying to destroy all of it!.

Stupidity is a truly universal human trait.

jfribrg
2011-Nov-13, 02:16 PM
One proposal for dealing with this I've seen and sort of favor is the separation of college football from college. :) Consider baseball. Colleges have baseball teams, but they aren't that a big of a deal, and the reason is the major league has its own professional minor league farm system.

I've been in favor of this for a while. We can solve so much if we simply drop the requirement that the players be students. Pay them what they are worth to the school, and if they want to use some of that money to attend college, then that's fine. Personally, I think that many of the scholarship students are using their athletic abilities to get a college degree. They know that they will not go on to the pros (I'm thinking of Division II athletes here). These kids would still be able to play their way through college, but the current NCAA rules hurt these kids while at the same time the big name division I athletes seemingly can ignore these same rules without any serious repercusions (ex: last year's Sugar Bowl).

Delvo
2011-Nov-13, 02:30 PM
The next day, the parents of kids in the choir (i.e. the parents of his actual and potential victims) staged a protest outside the police station where he was held, demanding his release. When asked by a journalist why they were protesting, they said they did not believe the accusations.In the case of the protesters in State College (yes, that's actually the name of the town that the state university is in), Pennsylvania, they probably hadn't even heard any accusations yet. Here's the order in which I heard things reported around here:

1. The other guy whose name I don't recall was said to have done what he did
2. Paterno got fired

The protesters then went outside to start protesting, because really, what had gotten reported about the situation at that point simply made no sense at all. But it also meant they weren't where they would hear whatever new updates about the situation came out next. Then, another bit of news was finally added:

3. Paterno had actually known what the other guy did

Notice that the protests ended once word of part 3 had finally gotten around.

swampyankee
2011-Nov-13, 03:14 PM
Some people take their football pretty seriously, this is the kind of story you usually get with original football in Latin America.

Some people take any kind of game way too seriously. It's a game, and it's quite disgusting that a college coach is frequently the highest paid person at USian universities.

jfribrg
2011-Nov-13, 03:20 PM
In the case of the protesters in State College (yes, that's actually the name of the town that the state university is in), Pennsylvania, they probably hadn't even heard any accusations yet. Here's the order in which I heard things reported around here:

1. The other guy whose name I don't recall was said to have done what he did
2. Paterno got fired

The protesters then went outside to start protesting, because really, what had gotten reported about the situation at that point simply made no sense at all. But it also meant they weren't where they would hear whatever new updates about the situation came out next. Then, another bit of news was finally added:

3. Paterno had actually known what the other guy did

Notice that the protests ended once word of part 3 had finally gotten around.

That doesn't say much about the protestors. Most of the relevant details had been known for 3 days before JoePa was fired. The kids must have known but didn't care because they had an excuse to get on TV and have some fun. I do like the fact that 10,000 students reportedly showed up for a candlelight vigil on Friday night. I don't think there were anywhere near that many rioters. I had wanted to believe that the vast majority of Penn State students are intelligent enough to understand why Joe had to go. I would like to think that these events were discussed/debated all week on campus and that some of the rioters have already come to understand that their opinion was in the minority.

ngc3314
2011-Nov-13, 06:02 PM
... a college coach is frequently the highest paid person at USian universities.

I think you misspelled "highest-paid state employee". Although much of the compensation isn't directly from the state but radio and TV appearance contracts.

swampyankee
2011-Nov-13, 06:46 PM
I think you misspelled "highest-paid state employee". Although much of the compensation isn't directly from the state but radio and TV appearance contracts.

No. It's also true for many private institutions, such as USC or Duke.

University of Chicago had the right idea in 1939 when it decided varsity athletics was far too influential on campus, and eliminated them. (I believe Chicago now competes in Division III, which probably keeps the games in their place).

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 07:39 PM
Some people take any kind of game way too seriously. It's a game, and it's quite disgusting that a college coach is frequently the highest paid person at USian universities.

I read recently about some football coach or another who had a policy that he should not make more money than the college president. Then he went to work for Notre Dame, where the college president doesn't actually get paid. Sometimes, there are exceptions to rules, and I could respect that one.

grapes
2011-Nov-13, 07:46 PM
Whew. I only just read in this morning's paper the title of Sandusky's autobiography. The mind boggles.

swampyankee
2011-Nov-13, 07:54 PM
I read recently about some football coach or another who had a policy that he should not make more money than the college president. Then he went to work for Notre Dame, where the college president doesn't actually get paid. Sometimes, there are exceptions to rules, and I could respect that one.

Well, that's a reasonable exception. Something similar may hold at some of the other Catholic universities, too, but the coach shouldn't make more than, say, any of the heads of academic departments.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 08:31 PM
Well, that's a reasonable exception. Something similar may hold at some of the other Catholic universities, too, but the coach shouldn't make more than, say, any of the heads of academic departments.

Quite. Of course, at my alma mater, I don't know that we even have faculty coaches of our various sports teams, given that they seem to come about when students decide they want to play some sport or another in an organized fashion, possibly against students from other colleges. But the Evergreen model doesn't fit everyone.

Jim
2011-Nov-13, 08:35 PM
Should selection should be brain based or sports based? My opinion is based on who owns the school. If it's a government (public) school, then the voters should decide. Personally I'm in favour of selecting on the basis of academic ability and not sporting ability. If it's a private school, then it's none of my business- they can do select on whatever criteria they want.

All schools have entrance requirements. Student atheletes are expected to meet those requirements. They also must maintain a full course load and a passing GPA to remain eligible.

Many on atheletic scholarships at major universities can't meet the academic requirements to get in at first, so they attend a junior college for a couple of years to boost their academic credentials.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 09:51 PM
That's not always strictly true, Jim. Colleges have been known now and again to bend rules slightly to get athletes through.

grapes
2011-Nov-13, 09:55 PM
All schools have entrance requirements. Student atheletes are expected to meet those requirements. They also must maintain a full course load and a passing GPA to remain eligible.

Many on atheletic scholarships at major universities can't meet the academic requirements to get in at first, so they attend a junior college for a couple of years to boost their academic credentials.Which part isn't strictly true? It looks like Jim left a little leeway in those statements.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-13, 10:13 PM
The athletes are not always expected to meet entrance requirements. It is a lot easier for athletes to get into certain colleges than it ought to be. Many can't meet the academic requirements, but the academic requirements are bent if an athlete is good enough.

swampyankee
2011-Nov-14, 01:09 AM
All schools have entrance requirements. Student atheletes are expected to meet those requirements. They also must maintain a full course load and a passing GPA to remain eligible.

Many on atheletic scholarships at major universities can't meet the academic requirements to get in at first, so they attend a junior college for a couple of years to boost their academic credentials.

The main two reasons for students being let into US colleges and universities despite inferior academic performance are athletics and legacy admissions. When I taught adjunct at a local college, I had a student-"athlete" who could not answer any of the questions on a copy of a math quiz given to my daughter when she was a student in eighth grade.

novaderrik
2011-Nov-14, 03:52 AM
Some people take any kind of game way too seriously. It's a game, and it's quite disgusting that a college coach is frequently the highest paid person at USian universities.

USian?

and why shouldn't they be the most highly paid person on staff? they bring in the most money and get the most name recognition for the university if they are able to put together a winning legacy..

Gillianren
2011-Nov-14, 04:40 AM
If. But most of 'em get that money even if they don't. Or if the basketball coach brings in more money, the case for some schools. Or if, Gods forbid, the science department, through grants, brings in more money than the games.

Trebuchet
2011-Nov-14, 03:21 PM
I recall reading an article some years ago about the highest paid employees in the State of Washington. The top 25, as I recall, were the head football coaches at the two main schools and about 23 doctors at the UW medical school. The governor wasn't even close.

The Backroad Astronomer
2011-Nov-14, 04:12 PM
Penn State has revenues of about $4.6B (note this puts their debt to income at 22%, which ain't bad), and according to the official budget, the football program contributes only 2% of that. I'd have to look at the figures in details, but I'm sure that's probably a narrow definition. At rate, *indirectly*, the football program is what draws in a lot of that revenue. If that didn't have the star football program, how much of the other sources would dry up. That's what Moody's is concerned with.

But how much is spent to keep up the fields, the gyms and to pay for all the expeditures.

One university I attended had a huge football field with the large lights to light up the field at night. One person defend the program by saying the team got $25k in scholarships, the bill for the lights costs that much alone not to mention the upkeep on the field. Personally I would of bulldozed the field and used it for something more pratical like more student housing or just a field without the high power lighting.

I do think we all need some sort of phyisical release but I never really understood what that had to do with sitting and watching someone else doing the activity. There is nothing wrong in enjoyng watching a sports game but some people take way too serisously.

jfribrg
2011-Nov-14, 04:48 PM
This reminds me of a young runner I know. He had a full scholarship to a division II school. I was at a party where several people were talking about him. They apparently knew what events he ran in, what his finishing place and time was for all four years. I decided to make a point and asked them what his major was. None of them had any clue.

Jim
2011-Nov-14, 05:59 PM
Freddie Joe Steinmark, University of Texas.
He graduated twenty-fifth scholastically in his high school class of 530.
He played defensive back on the freshman team and started on varsity during his sophomore and junior years. As a sophomore he was the team's leading punt returner and was named an All-Southwest Conference athlete-scholar while majoring in chemical engineering.

Freddie was diagnosed with bone cancer after The Big Shootout in 1969. He returned to school following amputation of his left leg. He switched to liberal arts, coached the freshman defensive backs, and was planning on going to law school when he died in 1971.

Sorry, any time folks start talking about how jocks are dumb and schools make exceptions for them, Freddie comes to mind.

grapes
2011-Nov-14, 06:08 PM
USian?Should be USAn

I do think we all need some sort of phyisical release but I never really understood what that had to do with sitting and watching someone else doing the activity. There is nothing wrong in enjoyng watching a sports game but some people take way too serisously.We need to find a sport that involves 50,000 players in the game.

ETA: this may involve Twitter however...

Noclevername
2011-Nov-14, 06:32 PM
We need to find a sport that involves 50,000 players in the game.

ETA: this may involve Twitter however...

I first read that as Twister. Now that would be an interesting game!

grapes
2011-Nov-14, 06:38 PM
I first read that as Twister. Now that would be an interesting game!I think we're on the right track! The next decision: do we charge $20 to play, or $30? $120 for the best positions.

Gillianren
2011-Nov-14, 07:31 PM
Sorry, any time folks start talking about how jocks are dumb and schools make exceptions for them, Freddie comes to mind.

No, they didn't need to make an exception for him. But there are plenty of people the schools have made exceptions for. Not all jocks are dumb, but jocks are able to get away with less academic advancement than non-jocks. There are plenty of smart ones who know that they have a rare opportunity and make the most of it, but there are plenty of others who get a four-year education at a great school and come out completely unprepared for anything other than playing a game which they aren't actually good enough to play for a living.

NEOWatcher
2011-Nov-15, 06:48 PM
No, it's the over-idolizing of sports celebs.Jealousy.
That's all you got? An insult?

Notice I said "over" idolizing. I have no issues with celebs or thier popularity or the money they make. That's why they are celebs. They are good at what they do, and it's disappointing to see when they fall because the entertainment value I get from them will be lacking.

But, it's the reaction of the general populace that gets me. They think that the regular rules of society can be bent because they are famous. If it's the rules of thier expertise, then I wouldn't mind so much. But; we are talking about something that is not. How would the average person be treated in such a situation?

swampyankee
2011-Nov-19, 02:16 AM
USian?

and why shouldn't they be the most highly paid person on staff? they bring in the most money and get the most name recognition for the university if they are able to put together a winning legacy..

Because there games. Colleges exist for the academics, not the athletes. I'm sure that MIT, Caltech, UChicago, Brown, Columbia, Yale, Cornell, Brandeis, Tufts, UPenn, Fordham, etc need their athletic programs to bring in money and recognition. Maybe if that's what a school needs to be well known, it should consider just becoming a minor league franchise.