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LunarOrbit
2002-May-12, 03:39 AM
I just stumbled across a Yahoo! Group about the Moon hoax. It's called "nasasapollocoverup (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nasasapollocoverup)".

There is one user named looter92 who sounds a lot like Bart Sibrel, but I'm not sure if it's him or not.

In one of his messages looter92 claims Pete Conrad was killed to keep him from revealing the truth about the hoax, and to warn the other astronauts as well. Here's what he said:



If they were to reveal the truth they would be breaking the law and no one would believe them and they'd end up in Leavenworth or worse. One Astronaut died in a mysterious motorcycle accident just before Y2K - a warning to others.


Comments like that make me really angry.

Jigsaw
2002-May-12, 04:41 AM
How exactly did they "kill" him? He wiped out on a turn--happens to motorcyclists all the time.
http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/news/jul99/070999a.html

Conrad, of Huntington Beach, was riding his 1996 Harley Davidson Thursday with his wife and a group of friends on a California highway Thursday afternoon when he apparently lost control of his motorcycle on a curve and was thrown onto the pavement, said Ventura County deputy coroner James Baroni.

< snip >

Baroni said Conrad's wife and friends saw the accident and summoned an ambulance with cell phones, but did not realize the extent of his injuries.

``Initially when he was brought in I don't think the family thought it was all that serious,'' Baroni said. ``He apparently flew off and landed on his chest and had some scrapes and bruises and a little difficulty breathing, but he was able to walk around and talk.''

Baroni said an ambulance crew ``figured he had some broken ribs'' and brought him to an emergency room.

``At the emergency room his blood pressure began to get low and his abdomen started to swell, which are signs that he was losing blood,'' Baroni said. ``So they got him into surgery to find out what was going on and at that point he started going into cardiac arrest.''

JayUtah
2002-May-12, 04:44 AM
Yes, allegations of wrongful death made with absolutely nothing behind them constitute the depths of depravity. Apparently no one connected with Apollo will be able to die a fully natural or accidental death in the minds of conspiracy theorists.

Most galling is Bill Kaysing's allegation that Jim Irwin had made overtures to him to reveal the whole conspiracy. (This is all according to Kaysing, and -- of course -- completely uncorroborated.) And then, "mysteriously", Mr. Irwin dies the next day of a heart attack. And this, according to Kaysing, constitutes a suspicious death.

Never mind that Irwin had already had one prior heart attack. Never mind that he had been under a doctor's care for years for a heart condition. Never mind that evidence of Irwin's malfeasant heart can be found all the way back to his Apollo mission, during which anomalous heart rhythms were recorded by the flight surgeon.

It doesn't matter how much contrary evidence might exist, all these deaths were "suspicious".

2002-May-12, 11:21 AM
<a name="20020512.3:17"> page 20020512.3:17 aka 02U2
On 2002-05-12 00:44, JayUtah wrote:


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3:18 A.M. Well actuall He did not
its just Yahoo's message to me
Thank my Luke_Key star_T
and other Par.Tee affiliated`$

johnwitts
2002-May-12, 09:45 PM
Most galling is Bill Kaysing's allegation that Jim Irwin had made overtures to him to reveal the whole conspiracy. (This is all according to Kaysing, and -- of course -- completely uncorroborated.) And then, "mysteriously", Mr. Irwin dies the next day of a heart attack. And this, according to Kaysing, constitutes a suspicious death.

The really sickening thing about this is that Kaysing had probably been waiting a while for an Apollo astronaut to die, just so he could use his made up story. You can imagine the sick planning.

1)Make up story about one of the Moon walkers contacting me about the hoax, then die.
2)Wait for one to die.

Sick.

The Rusty Lander
2002-May-13, 01:49 AM
On 2002-05-12 17:45, johnwitts wrote:
Most galling is Bill Kaysing's allegation that Jim Irwin had made overtures to him to reveal the whole conspiracy. (This is all according to Kaysing, and -- of course -- completely uncorroborated.) And then, "mysteriously", Mr. Irwin dies the next day of a heart attack. And this, according to Kaysing, constitutes a suspicious death.

The really sickening thing about this is that Kaysing had probably been waiting a while for an Apollo astronaut to die, just so he could use his made up story. You can imagine the sick planning.

1)Make up story about one of the Moon walkers contacting me about the hoax, then die.
2)Wait for one to die.

Sick.


Now, hold on a minute here. You might be convinced that Kaysing is deceived by his theories but where is the proof that he would quite deliberately and maliciously tell such a whopping lie? My understanding was that he was sincere at least, and certainly would not make up such a thing!

JayUtah
2002-May-13, 01:59 AM
I have to agree. Not only is it the nadir of tastelessness to exploit a death for one's profiteering, it's particularly annoying to do it in such a fumbling, see-through way: "Jim Irwin? Um, he called me up last night. Yeah, that's it." Right, Bill. Would you mind taking my pet chupacabra for a walk on that grassy knoll?

Kaysing also claims the entire Challenger crew was killed to keep the "civilian" Christa McAuliffe from revealing that you really can see stars in space. I marvel that he can so easily and effortlessly level murder charges that are entirely implausible and totally without evidence.

But considering his m.o., it's not all that surprising. He sits there in his easy chair and tells grandfatherly tales of his supposed glory days at Rocketdyne. And most of it is a bald faced lie. He was never an engineer. He never designed rocket engines, nor does he understand how they work, or much of how anything else works. But he's got a whole audience of eager hoax believers sitting at his feet, willing to believe whatever he says. And so he says whatever it takes to keep his audience, whether it's a blatant lie or not.

JayUtah
2002-May-13, 02:28 AM
where is the proof that he would quite deliberately and maliciously tell such a whopping lie?

Well, you have to carefully separate his assertions that are simply an interpretation of observations, and allegations of fact which ought to be testable. Kaysing has made several allegations of fact, without providing proof. Further, those allegations are highly improbable.

As examples of such allegations, just about anything that he backs up with stories about his supposed work at Rocketdyne will suffice. E.g.:

(a) that 10,000 lbf rocket motors will dig down to bedrock and move boulders across canyons, and that he's personally seen this happen.
(b) that Rocketdyne engineers were convinced it was impossible to go to the moon.
(c) that astrophysicists have documented that cislunar space is too hostile for space travel.
(d) that the LM exhaust should produce an opaque red plume. (N2O4 reacts with air to form a red cloud; this does not occur in a vacuum, nor when cleanly combusting with Aerozine 50.)

Other improbable allegations of fact -- not connected with Rocketdyne -- which Kaysing does not allow us to verify:

(a) that an airline pilot saw the Apollo 15 command module being dropped from a cargo plane. The Apollo 15 splashdown occurred hundreds of miles from where this sighting is alleged to have taken place.
(b) that a Seattle geologist told Kaysing that, without a doubt, the moon rocks were manufactured in a lab on earth. Which geologist? All the published geologists agree without a doubt that the moon rocks are lunar.
(c) Jim Irwin was murdered to prevent him from talking to Kaysing about the hoax. Irwin's was not necessarily untimely.
(d) Christa McAuliffe refused to go along with NASA's party line that stars are not visible in space. Many astronauts are and were on record saying stars were visible in space, and Kaysing can demonstrate no inside knowledge of McAuliffe or her views.
(e) Buzz Aldrin broke down at a public appearance because he couldn't live with his lie anymore. Aldrin went through a lengthy and public period of alcoholism and depression.

Now some of the latter group can be dismissed as Kaysing simply falling for other people's delusions, or simply making up stories. That may or may not be a bald-face lie in your book. But Kaysing knows that he is not a rocket scientist, and that the opinions he presents as "expert" opinions are not the opinions of an expert. And we know they are factually incorrect.

It is my opinion that Kaysing is a habitual liar, but I can only prove him to be a liar on a very few points. Many of the rest of his assertions are not provable as lies, but are highly improbable and unsupported. Since Kaysing is so comfortable in the role of "rocket expert" that he has created for himself -- a role he does not deserve -- I don't think it's an unfair opinion.