PDA

View Full Version : Eliminate penny or no?



banquo's_bumble_puppy
2004-Jul-20, 04:25 PM
Many people just throw them on the ground. Banks won't take large volumes of them and they charge you a service charge when they take small amounts. Is it time to get rid of the penny/cent in Canada and the USA, etc..?, (and I assume that other countries have similar small denominations.)

gethen
2004-Jul-20, 04:28 PM
I voted yes because if they're eliminated, by the time my great grandchildren get born and grow up, that big jar of pennies in my closet should be worth enough to send them to college. :wink:

Normandy6644
2004-Jul-20, 04:32 PM
The only problem is, how to make change? Unless of course the point is that no one would want between 1 and 4 pennies anyway, so just forget about them? Hmm, I'm not sure. I like saving them because you can roll up a significant number of them and get a few bucks from the bank. It is a lot of trouble though... :wink:

SciFi Chick
2004-Jul-20, 04:44 PM
I voted no. If you get rid of the penny, then how will you charge $19.99 for all those wonderful products on TV?

And how about gasoline? Instead of creeping up from $1.75 to $1.76, it would go immediately to $1.80. Not only that, do you really think if something is rung up, the stores will ever round down?

:wink:

Brady Yoon
2004-Jul-20, 05:04 PM
No. Tax would be a big problem, then.

Ut
2004-Jul-20, 05:24 PM
A penny saved is a penny earned. If someone wants to throw them away, I'm more than happy to take them.

ToSeek
2004-Jul-20, 05:26 PM
I vote yes. I get sick of accumulating pennies in my wallet. Then I make a conscientious effort to get rid of them, but when I do of course the very next time I buy anything it's like $20.01. Take them away!

R.A.F.
2004-Jul-20, 05:31 PM
I voted no. I think that if they're going to put Reagan's face on our money, it should be on the lowest denomination...and then we could give Lincoln a "raise". :)

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2004-Jul-20, 05:50 PM
never expected the 'no's' to overtake the 'yes's'...

Mars
2004-Jul-20, 05:56 PM
When I stationed overseas in Germany some 8 years back we didn't have pennies on the base, they rounded up if it was 3 cents or more and down if it we 2 or less. It worked both ways, in the end you break even.

aurora
2004-Jul-20, 06:17 PM
And how about gasoline? Instead of creeping up from $1.75 to $1.76, it would go immediately to $1.80. Not only that, do you really think if something is rung up, the stores will ever round down?

:wink:

But gas wouldn't be $1.76, it would be $1.769.

:P

SeanF
2004-Jul-20, 06:32 PM
And how about gasoline? Instead of creeping up from $1.75 to $1.76, it would go immediately to $1.80. Not only that, do you really think if something is rung up, the stores will ever round down?

:wink:
But gas wouldn't be $1.76, it would be $1.769.

:P
Gas is actually a good example of how it could work. Gas is charged down to the tenth-of-a-cent per gallon, but we don't carry coins that small - the final price just gets rounded.

On the other hand, it should be pointed out that eliminating the penny won't get rid of the smallest denomination - the smallest denomination will just become the nickel. Then we'll have to start talking about eliminating those.

How about we eliminate the penny and always round down - but only if you're paying cash! If you're writing a check or paying by credit card, you might as well pay the cents, eh? That's right, let's reward people for using cash! :D

CTM VT 2K
2004-Jul-20, 06:40 PM
When I stationed overseas in Germany some 8 years back we didn't have pennies on the base, they rounded up if it was 3 cents or more and down if it we 2 or less. It worked both ways, in the end you break even.

Its still like that now. A long, LONG time ago they tried to keep pennies in circulation for U.S. Forces, Europe. It didn't work: They kept having to ship more and more in, because the loose pennies kept winding up in penny-jars, and then back to the States.

Interesting thing, I've noticed most Americans don't do much with loose change. They'll throw it in their pocket, and at the end of the day toss it in a jar or similar. This of course is viable because the $1 is widely available as paper. The Euro (and earlier the DM) are only available in paper down to the €5, with €1 and €2 as coins. An American here breaks a €20 or a €5, and looses track of the change. Locals, on the other hand, are very quick with the coin combinations. I think some of this comes from the wide availablity of dual bill-fold/coin purse wallets, vs. the American standard of bill-fold only.

Just my $0.02 or €0.02 :D

StarStuff
2004-Jul-20, 08:14 PM
I don't know... I kind of like the idea of a lucky penny. :P Though if we eliminated pennies, maybe we'd just find more lucky nickels lying in the street instead. :wink:


I vote yes. I get sick of accumulating pennies in my wallet. Then I make a conscientious effort to get rid of them, but when I do of course the very next time I buy anything it's like $20.01. Take them away!

Okay, this I do identify with; I often have the same problem. And it'll usually be some amount like $15.01 when all I have is a $20 bill, and then my almost $5.00 gets reduced to a handful of change.

TriangleMan
2004-Jul-20, 09:03 PM
I don't even want to think about how foreign exchange transactions would work without the penny. Blah!

Ut
2004-Jul-20, 09:08 PM
I don't know... I kind of like the idea of a lucky penny. :P Though if we eliminated pennies, maybe we'd just find more lucky nickels lying in the street instead. :wink:


I vote yes. I get sick of accumulating pennies in my wallet. Then I make a conscientious effort to get rid of them, but when I do of course the very next time I buy anything it's like $20.01. Take them away!

Okay, this I do identify with; I often have the same problem. And it'll usually be some amount like $15.01 when all I have is a $20 bill, and then my almost $5.00 gets reduced to a handful of change.

Don't blame the penny. Blame the bozo that priced his merchendise in such a manner that it can come to $X+$0.01. Or the tax man, for that matter.

Parrothead
2004-Jul-20, 09:32 PM
If they get rid of the penny, are they going to introduce a $5 coin. :wink:

xbck1
2004-Jul-20, 09:33 PM
Sure, get rid of the penny. Just make sure to price everything so that when you add sales tax you come out with nice dollar amounts like $5.50 or $2.25 instead of $6.23 and $2.08.

gethen
2004-Jul-20, 10:15 PM
After further consideration, I think eliminating the penny could get really messy. This state has a 6% sales tax, so it would take some figuring to price items in such a way that no pennies are needed when paying cash. Except for food items which do not require sales tax. So your item would be priced differently, depending on which state you're in, wouldn't it? Or am I just getting really confused?

jami cat
2004-Jul-20, 11:27 PM
After further consideration, I think eliminating the penny could get really messy. This state has a 6% sales tax, so it would take some figuring to price items in such a way that no pennies are needed when paying cash. Except for food items which do not require sales tax. So your item would be priced differently, depending on which state you're in, wouldn't it? Or am I just getting really confused?

I say yes

In the end, all calcualtions come down to the last nickel: anything under a nickel is rounded from .025=less from .026=more. Now all we have to do is adjust our pricing schemes to include another decimal point, like gas stations do. (Of course it's always $0.00.9 :x ).

Now a loaf of bread can be $1.09.9 instead of $1.09.(All those .9=$)

Just the last few cents is reduced to the nearest nickel.

I don't think many americans know what tenths of a dollar is anymore. 8-[

Oh yea forgot, Supermarkets are doing it. When you look at the price of products, they write the price per pound/ounce as 0.00.00 depends on what it is. (Usually like $0.39.8c per ounce, or close to it)

Hmm, maybe they shoud bring back the half cent?
I think we're getting ripped off :evil:

xbck1
2004-Jul-20, 11:51 PM
Well, the government could adjust sales tax so stuff would cost the same everywhere in the country... Not that they would, of course.

NASA Fan
2004-Jul-21, 12:37 AM
Well, the government could adjust sales tax so stuff would cost the same everywhere in the country... Not that they would, of course.

Depending on what you are buying, there is a state tax, and sometimes even a local tax that you are paying, and the federal goverment has little (if anything) to do with that.

Denmark did away with the equivialant of the penny in either the 60's or early 70's, everything would cost something ending in a 5 or a 0. Then in the late 80's or early 90's Denmark did away with the equvilant of the dime and the nickel. They still kept things ending in 5 or 0, once the total is figured out then then final price is rounded up or down to the nearest 0.25. It seems to work for them, but that is also because of the relative worth of the Danish Krone.

Jpax2003
2004-Jul-21, 02:55 AM
I don't think we'll get rid of the penny in the near future. Not when the Speaker of the US House of Representatives is from the Land of Lincoln (Illinois). Yeah, it was mentioned on The West Wing, but I coulda told you myself.

paulie jay
2004-Jul-21, 04:26 AM
In Australia we haven't had 1 or 2 cent pieces for many years now. It's been no big deal, shops still put whatever price they want on goods, and when the total comes $324.38 (for example) gets rounded up to $324.40, where $324.37 would get rounded down to $324.35. Credit card purchases are for the exact amount as it's done electronically.

We are also thinking of scrapping the 5 cent piece too. Many bus companies and road toll collectors won't accept them anyway.

On the other hand we got rid of $1 and $2 notes a long time ago too and have replaced them with coins.

Candy
2004-Jul-21, 06:04 AM
I want to say eliminate all monies, in the form of paper or coin exchange for goods as we know it today. From a great movie, the Graduate, plastic is our future. :lol:

Edit to add additional thoughts, and yes I know from the movie, plastic was meant in an entirely different way. 8-[

mid
2004-Jul-21, 09:24 AM
So, for every item in the supermarket currently priced at 99p, you're happy to legislate an extra 1% inflation? Doesn't strike me a particularly good idea.

xbck1
2004-Jul-21, 05:54 PM
I want to say eliminate all monies, in the form of paper or coin exchange for goods as we know it today. From a great movie, the Graduate, plastic is our future. :lol:I just have one word for that: Yuck!

I don't want to need a credit card just so that I can buy something out of a vending machine (I do that a lot when school's in), I don't want to have to stick a credit card in a slot every time I want to ride the bus, I don't want to use a credit card because something at a thrift store costs $0.25 (books being a prime example), and I certainly don't want to hassle with all the annoyances that come with credit cards, i.e., interest rates and whatnot. If it's a choice for me between pennies and credit cards, I'll take pennies any day.

SciFi Chick
2004-Jul-21, 06:01 PM
I don't want to need a credit card just so that I can buy something out of a vending machine (I do that a lot when school's in), I don't want to have to stick a credit card in a slot every time I want to ride the bus, I don't want to use a credit card because something at a thrift store costs $0.25 (books being a prime example), and I certainly don't want to hassle with all the annoyances that come with credit cards, i.e., interest rates and whatnot. If it's a choice for me between pennies and credit cards, I'll take pennies any day.

But the cards get more convenient as you go. For example, at my university, you can connect your checking account to your ID, and then when you go up to vending machines, you can use your card, and it costs less than it would with cash. You also get a discount for using your card at the parking garages, and you don't have to pay sales tax on food from the cafeteria if you use PLUS dollars attached to your card. Very convenient.

SeanF
2004-Jul-21, 06:12 PM
I don't want to need a credit card just so that I can buy something out of a vending machine (I do that a lot when school's in), I don't want to have to stick a credit card in a slot every time I want to ride the bus, I don't want to use a credit card because something at a thrift store costs $0.25 (books being a prime example), and I certainly don't want to hassle with all the annoyances that come with credit cards, i.e., interest rates and whatnot. If it's a choice for me between pennies and credit cards, I'll take pennies any day.
But the cards get more convenient as you go. For example, at my university, you can connect your checking account to your ID, and then when you go up to vending machines, you can use your card, and it costs less than it would with cash. You also get a discount for using your card at the parking garages, and you don't have to pay sales tax on food from the cafeteria if you use PLUS dollars attached to your card. Very convenient.
Plus it creates a nice little electronic "paper trail" attaching you to every single thing you buy.

Not that I'm paranoid or anything . . .

SciFi Chick
2004-Jul-21, 06:29 PM
Plus it creates a nice little electronic "paper trail" attaching you to every single thing you buy.

Not that I'm paranoid or anything . . .

Call me a cynic, but I figure I'm so on the grid, there's nothing I can do anyway. As long as it doesn't suddenly become illegal to be who I am, it's not a problem anyway. 8)

a_lost_packet_
2004-Jul-21, 08:20 PM
We can not afford to "eliminate" the penny.

Think about it. Our system of currency is based on the smallest, measurable unit being "1." The penny is the "Planck" unit of our system. So, if we eliminated that unit, then the "nickel" would become the new base unit.

The common citizen may not deal much with cents. However, in business and trade, a few cents is a large difference when talking about material costs which are measured in pounds/kilos in many industries.

If the penny was eliminated, how would these costs be translated into currency? For instance, if Coca-Cola's constituent components (minus the water) cost an estimated 3 cents, the packaging (can) costs .03 cents (incuding screenprinting) the carton costs .11 cents, the marketing costs an estimated .02 cents and the labor costs an estimated .01 cents per can; how are you going to represent those costs with a base unit of .05 cents? Remeber, each of these costs are accumulated across the entire process of manufacturing. Do you then relegate "pennies" as a "fudge token" to be used only in the back-end of accounting systems with no, real world, representation? Do you arbitrarily just round everything up? !!

The "penny" is here to stay. Its use permeates our industrial sectors even though many people just get annoyed by having to deal with it on the street. If we take it out of circulation, there will be no "real world" translation for the base of currency used in the industrial world compared to the common exchange rate. We can not "round" whole pennies to nickels. Impossible. Unless our entire system is changed, we have no choice.


a_lost_packet_

Grendl
2004-Jul-21, 09:11 PM
No, we need to keep the penny. I need all the cents I can get.

#-o

Candy
2004-Jul-22, 04:06 AM
No, we need to keep the penny. I need all the cents I can get.

#-o This reminded me of a joke I made up....


I heard the movie Sixth Sense was really good.

Pause to let the other person comment.


I hear it's all about a nickel and a penny. :lol:

Sorry, I thought it was funny. :lol:

freddo
2004-Jul-22, 04:22 AM
As paulie jay mentioned, Australia has done away with its equivalent of the penny - the one cent piece (the two cent piece as well btw..).

I can tell you from experience your systems will not be affected by losing such a denomination. However, there will be little to no benefit anyway. Now, instead of people not accepting 1s and 2s because they are rubbish money - people turn down the 5c piece for the same reason.


We can not afford to "eliminate" the penny.

The reasons you've cited are irrelevant. There would be no change to the actual numbers being touted around, simply the methods of transaction. Business who wire all their money will still carry on as normal. All it changes is the money capable of being tendered for a physical transaction.

I personally don't think changing the money in circulation is worthwhile anymore (aside for security reasons) - until a time comes when money can be done away with altogether. And that's coming.

Trebuchet
2004-Jul-22, 04:43 AM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).
Of course all the previous attempts to replace the dollar bill (2-dollar bill, Susan B. Anthony, Sacajawea) have failed, but for the same reason -- no one in congress has the nerve to do what's necessary and stop printing dollar bills!

StarStuff
2004-Jul-22, 05:08 AM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).

Just a nitpick here: we have loonies and toonies in Canada. We used to have $1 and $2 bills; the $1 were replaced by loonies first, followed by the toonie to take the place of the old $2 bills.

Jpax2003
2004-Jul-22, 05:18 AM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).
Of course all the previous attempts to replace the dollar bill (2-dollar bill, Susan B. Anthony, Sacajawea) have failed, but for the same reason -- no one in congress has the nerve to do what's necessary and stop printing dollar bills!That would result in forcing the closure of hundreds to thousands of Dollar Stores and similar. How can kids get money for band or scouts if we remove the legal tender we could give them? The saying "I'll buy that for a dollar" will lose it's very real meaning.

There's another saying, "Ain't worth a Continental." If you get rid of the dollar you might create enough confusion in the money supply that people start to lose faith in it, and that is all it is based on: faith. Unless you want to go back to a gold standard, I'd leave well enough alone.

Cylinder
2004-Jul-22, 05:29 AM
How much does it cost the government to mint a penny?

That question may not be significant though, since a penny gets spent multiple times. Still seems like an economic drain, though.

Candy
2004-Jul-22, 05:31 AM
I still like the plastic idea. I am better able to keep track of my daily spending. By transferring the data to excel, I am able to visualize using a pie chart for a real life visual. I minimize or maximize certain concerns for spending. Plastic is small, therefore, it takes up little space. I like a light purse. :lol:

I am charity, so I keep my money. 8-[

ToSeek
2004-Jul-22, 12:59 PM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).
Of course all the previous attempts to replace the dollar bill (2-dollar bill, Susan B. Anthony, Sacajawea) have failed, but for the same reason -- no one in congress has the nerve to do what's necessary and stop printing dollar bills!That would result in forcing the closure of hundreds to thousands of Dollar Stores and similar. How can kids get money for band or scouts if we remove the legal tender we could give them? The saying "I'll buy that for a dollar" will lose it's very real meaning.

There's another saying, "Ain't worth a Continental." If you get rid of the dollar you might create enough confusion in the money supply that people start to lose faith in it, and that is all it is based on: faith. Unless you want to go back to a gold standard, I'd leave well enough alone.

He's not talking about getting rid of the dollar, just the dollar bill. We already have dollar coins, and the coins are less expensive over the long run because they last longer. If we're going to have dollar coins, they should get rid of the bills (and the penny, so far as I'm concerned, which will help because it will make room in the cash registers for the dollar coins).

ToSeek
2004-Jul-22, 01:01 PM
How much does it cost the government to mint a penny?

That question may not be significant though, since a penny gets spent multiple times. Still seems like an economic drain, though.

It got to the point some years ago that a copper penny contained more than a penny's worth of copper, so in 1982 the Mint switched to making the penny mostly zinc with a copper coating.

Dgennero
2004-Jul-22, 01:02 PM
I'm for eliminating anything below a quarter; in addition, taxes like the 7.5% in FL should be added beforehand so that the final price is shown, and that must necessarily be something divisible by 25 when expressed in "pennies".
It would make calculations easier and the wallet slimmer.
Things that are sold by quantity like gasoline may have a finer division but get rounded up/down to the quarter.

Trebuchet
2004-Jul-22, 06:39 PM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).
Of course all the previous attempts to replace the dollar bill (2-dollar bill, Susan B. Anthony, Sacajawea) have failed, but for the same reason -- no one in congress has the nerve to do what's necessary and stop printing dollar bills!That would result in forcing the closure of hundreds to thousands of Dollar Stores and similar. How can kids get money for band or scouts if we remove the legal tender we could give them? The saying "I'll buy that for a dollar" will lose it's very real meaning.

There's another saying, "Ain't worth a Continental." If you get rid of the dollar you might create enough confusion in the money supply that people start to lose faith in it, and that is all it is based on: faith. Unless you want to go back to a gold standard, I'd leave well enough alone.

He's not talking about getting rid of the dollar, just the dollar bill. We already have dollar coins, and the coins are less expensive over the long run because they last longer. If we're going to have dollar coins, they should get rid of the bills (and the penny, so far as I'm concerned, which will help because it will make room in the cash registers for the dollar coins).

And make room in the cash drawer for the dollar coins by eliminating 50 cent pieces.

paulie jay
2004-Jul-23, 03:15 AM
The thing that I don't like about "smart cards" instead of cash is that every time I go down to the local store to buy some milk I don't want to have to carry my entire net worth with me.

Also, I can't just spot a mate $20 for him to get a taxi home. It would have to be done electronically.


So, for every item in the supermarket currently priced at 99p, you're happy to legislate an extra 1% inflation? Doesn't strike me a particularly good idea.

It all balances out in the wash. Buy three items at 99 cents and it comes to a total of $2.97 which then gets rounded down to $2.95. It's really no big deal.

Bob The Confused
2004-Jul-23, 04:09 AM
How much does it cost the government to mint a penny?

That question may not be significant though, since a penny gets spent multiple times. Still seems like an economic drain, though.

I thought I had read somewhere that it cost the US Government nine-tenths of a cent to make a penny.

Jpax2003
2004-Jul-23, 03:49 PM
I'd just as soon keep the penny -- it's the dollar bill we should get rid of. The feds spend a ton of money printing them because they wear out after only a few months. Canada has the right idea -- they're even replacing the dollar coin (Loonie) with 2$ (Twonie).
Of course all the previous attempts to replace the dollar bill (2-dollar bill, Susan B. Anthony, Sacajawea) have failed, but for the same reason -- no one in congress has the nerve to do what's necessary and stop printing dollar bills!That would result in forcing the closure of hundreds to thousands of Dollar Stores and similar. How can kids get money for band or scouts if we remove the legal tender we could give them? The saying "I'll buy that for a dollar" will lose it's very real meaning.

There's another saying, "Ain't worth a Continental." If you get rid of the dollar you might create enough confusion in the money supply that people start to lose faith in it, and that is all it is based on: faith. Unless you want to go back to a gold standard, I'd leave well enough alone.

He's not talking about getting rid of the dollar, just the dollar bill. We already have dollar coins, and the coins are less expensive over the long run because they last longer. If we're going to have dollar coins, they should get rid of the bills (and the penny, so far as I'm concerned, which will help because it will make room in the cash registers for the dollar coins).I don't like dollar coins and I think they've done studies to prove that others do not as well. The problem with a dollar coin is that it's often too close in size to a quarter, which is convenient size. Anything larger will probably be inconvenient. Many people just put them in their pockets, so lots of dollars will probably weigh a lot plus take up more room.

Foldable bills are "money" to most people, whereas, coinage is mere change. Coins aren't money, they're a fraction of real money. Coins can also be debased by adding other metals in, however, bills are notes representing real money. Bills can be inflated or counterfitted, but not debased.

Besides, how do you tip a stripper without hurting her if you don't have soft foldable money?

SciFi Chick
2004-Jul-23, 03:51 PM
Besides, how do you tip a stripper without hurting her if you don't have soft foldable money?

I read everything you said, but it really just comes down to the above quote doesn't it? :lol:

mid
2004-Jul-23, 04:00 PM
Why not just scrap cents completely, and make the dollar the smallest amount, if you want to get rid of some of them?

After all, its not like your dollar is worth an awful lot any more...

SciFi Chick
2004-Jul-23, 04:05 PM
Why not just scrap cents completely, and make the dollar the smallest amount, if you want to get rid of some of them?

After all, its not like your dollar is worth an awful lot any more...

Are you trying to start a fight, because that's a good way to do it. :x

Jpax2003
2004-Jul-24, 05:13 AM
Why not just scrap cents completely, and make the dollar the smallest amount, if you want to get rid of some of them?

After all, its not like your dollar is worth an awful lot any more...Ok, that does it, I'm gonna start up the first "Penny Store" where everything is a penny. I'll start with a row of cell phones... Maybe a footware section with some loafers...

dvb
2004-Jul-24, 07:28 PM
Besides, how do you tip a stripper without hurting her if you don't have soft foldable money?

You'd be surprised what strippers can do with a 1 or 2 dollar coin here in Canada. At least in the local clubs, you'll see guys go up on stage laying down with the coin in their mouth, and you can use your imagination to figure out the rest. ;)

On another note, I remember watching the news when they were switching the 2 dollar bill over to a coin. They had a representative from the mint on there, and he was saying that bills usually stay in circulation for 2 years where they keep coins in circulation for 20+ years. That being the main reason for moving to coins.

I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten rid of our penny yet. I never knew that the australians did until reading this thread, and their dollar is doing better than ours at the moment.

Last time I recall, it did cost more for canada to make a penny than it's actually worth. Something like 1.5 cents to make 1 penny, but I could be wrong.

Bawheid
2004-Jul-26, 03:55 PM
I always wondered what a classy night out in Thunder Bay was like. :o

Costs more to make coppers here in the UK than they are worth, and that is after they have adulterated them so far they can be picked up with magnets.

As for business, no one buys a coke can for 3 cents, they buy 100,000 at a time so the individual cost gets lost.

sarongsong
2006-Aug-03, 06:59 AM
Ok, that does it, I'm gonna start up the first "Penny Store" where everything is a penny...ooh, and a "Thoughts" section http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon3.gif
From local chanteuse, Eve Selis (http://eveselis.com/music/nbtt.php#6):
...Chorus

There’s been talk for years about Congress doing away with the penny.
In an age that worships the Benjamin, it’s good to give old Honest Abe his due.
---Mr. Lincoln (http://eveselis.com/music/playlists/mrlincoln.m3u)

pumpkinpie
2006-Aug-04, 03:26 PM
I know this is a long ago topic, but I have some recent observations so I can add my 10 cents worth.

I just traveled in Australia and New Zealand where they seem to have successfully gotten rid of the use of the penny, at least in cash transactions. I don't know if it's the round up/down to the nearest 5 cent method, or if they carefully adjust their prices so that nothing comes out to a penny amount. It was nice not carrying around so much weight in coins.

In fact, I don't think I ever saw even a 5 cent piece in New Zealand....every transaction came out to the tens.

I hear from a coin collecting friend that a nickel cost 6 cents to make. So we might as well get rid of both the penny and the nickel!!

zebo-the-fat
2006-Aug-06, 11:37 AM
I don't know how things are in the US, but here in the UK we need to scrap the 1 Pence coin and introduce a 99 Pence coin. Everything seems to cost £x.99!

The Backroad Astronomer
2006-Aug-07, 02:31 AM
the only big problem with the loonie and toonie is the price of stuff in vending machines went upeach time.

t@nn
2006-Aug-07, 03:08 AM
I don't like dollar coins and I think they've done studies to prove that others do not as well. The problem with a dollar coin is that it's often too close in size to a quarter, which is convenient size. Anything larger will probably be inconvenient. Many people just put them in their pockets, so lots of dollars will probably weigh a lot plus take up more room.

Foldable bills are "money" to most people, whereas, coinage is mere change. Coins aren't money, they're a fraction of real money. Coins can also be debased by adding other metals in, however, bills are notes representing real money. Bills can be inflated or counterfitted, but not debased.

Besides, how do you tip a stripper without hurting her if you don't have soft foldable money?

It's just what you're used to. Dollar coins and two dollar coins are money to me. Dollar bills now seem strange to me.

jkmccrann
2006-Aug-07, 06:42 AM
I know this is a long ago topic, but I have some recent observations so I can add my 10 cents worth.

I just traveled in Australia and New Zealand where they seem to have successfully gotten rid of the use of the penny, at least in cash transactions. I don't know if it's the round up/down to the nearest 5 cent method, or if they carefully adjust their prices so that nothing comes out to a penny amount. It was nice not carrying around so much weight in coins.

In fact, I don't think I ever saw even a 5 cent piece in New Zealand....every transaction came out to the tens.

I hear from a coin collecting friend that a nickel cost 6 cents to make. So we might as well get rid of both the penny and the nickel!!

Yep, most prices in Australia end in .95, so DVDs are usually $19.95 for instance. We got rid of the 1c and 2c coins about 10 years ago, and got rid of the $1 and $2 notes even longer ago. There's a push on to get rid of 5c coins as well, and maybe about 10 years down the track start using $5 coins instead of the $5 notes.

sarongsong
2006-Dec-14, 10:01 PM
Uh-oh:
December 13, 2006
...new regulations prohibit the melting of 1-cent and 5-cent coins, with a penalty of up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $10,000...The current copper [2.5%] and zinc [97.5%] in a penny are worth 1.12 cents...Pennies made before 1982...contain 95 percent copper and only 5 percent zinc. The metal value in those coins is 2.13 cents per coin...6.99 cents for each 5-cent coin... Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/business/4401280.html)

Delvo
2006-Dec-14, 10:39 PM
We once had half-pennies. At the time they were ditched, they were worth about what a dime is worth today. The trouble people predict with getting rid of pennies now, such as price inflation from lack of rounding and trouble calculating taxes and such, didn't happen then and wouldn't happen now, just like it didn't happen in European countries when switching from local native currencies to Euros or in Britain centuries before that when switch from a halves-of-halves fractioning to a decimal fractioning. We'd just get used to stopping at the .1 digit (which means no more nickels or quarters, but probably the return of 50-cent coins) or half/whole dollars or something like that. Nations change and redefine their money systems all the time.

Another way to do deal with the issue, instead of chopping off the bottom end of the current system, would be to redefine the value of a cent/dollar as something greater than it currently is. For example, in 1993, Mexico defined the word "peso" to mean what would have previously been called "a thousand pesos"...

danscope
2006-Dec-15, 03:18 AM
Many people just throw them on the ground. Banks won't take large volumes of them and they charge you a service charge when they take small amounts. Is it time to get rid of the penny/cent in Canada and the USA, etc..?, (and I assume that other countries have similar small denominations.)

Simple: Get rid of the penny, and MAKE the sales tax 5% and LEAVE IT THERE.
Done. If you want to buy something, Buy five cents worth. Just make government live with the 5 cent tax. Done.

SeanF
2006-Dec-15, 03:12 PM
Simple: Get rid of the penny, and MAKE the sales tax 5% and LEAVE IT THERE.
Done. If you want to buy something, Buy five cents worth. Just make government live with the 5 cent tax. Done.
When the cost of the product is $12.99, setting the sales tax at 5% rather than 6% doesn't make any difference (in terms of pennies needed). Are you going to set price controls, as well?

And your sales tax is partially set by the State and partially by the City (and in some places, partially by the County). How do you get them to agree on how to split up that 5%?

Also, what do you do about things like gasoline, where people don't buy integer-divisible amounts anyway?

sarongsong
2006-Dec-15, 04:45 PM
Simple: Get rid of the penny, and MAKE the sales tax 5% and LEAVE IT THERE...Tennessee [at 9.4% (http://www.yourtax.org/facts/sales_tax_rank.php3)] might have a problem with that, among others.

Doodler
2006-Dec-15, 05:01 PM
Maryland is at 5% now, but I keep hearing the occassional rumblings of going to 7%.


Personally, I'd say keep the penny. Not like it bothers me, I do 99% of my business on checkcard plastic.

LazyCat
2006-Dec-15, 05:07 PM
Been hearing this for DECADES. Like a bad penny, this subject keeps returning. I suppose everything could get rounded to the next 5 cents. So 1, 2 would get rounded down to 0; and 3, 4 get rounded up to 5. Just like on my tax returns where amounts are rounded to the nearest dollar.

sarongsong
2006-Dec-15, 05:54 PM
Surprised to see Nevada at 7.5%---thought their gaming interest taxes eliminated the state tax.

danscope
2006-Dec-15, 07:49 PM
When the cost of the product is $12.99, setting the sales tax at 5% rather than 6% doesn't make any difference (in terms of pennies needed). Are you going to set price controls, as well?

And your sales tax is partially set by the State and partially by the City (and in some places, partially by the County). How do you get them to agree on how to split up that 5%?

Also, what do you do about things like gasoline, where people don't buy integer-divisible amounts anyway?

Hi Sean, I appreciate your position, however, the price of gasoline is metered
and priced at the pump and is mechanicaly taken care of. The next 5 cents worth , less than a 1/4 of a cup. We can deal with this.
The state,county and municipal treasuries are dealing with millions, and not spliting your pennies.
And the only price control is whether to cost things at the next nickel.
We can best use our copper for solar heating,electronics,wire, etc, where it shall do the most good, and not strain the backs of some deluded poor soul who thinks he can lift that huge jar of pennies . We shall save in many ways, apparent and hidden. And we shall all get through the check-out a little faster,now and always,without some poor old soul who shall fidget in his or her pockets trying to find that penny" Dear,I'm sure I had one here somewhere...".
I should think this can be done.
Best regards, Dan

SeanF
2006-Dec-15, 08:02 PM
Hi Sean, I appreciate your position, however, the price of gasoline is metered
and priced at the pump and is mechanicaly taken care of. The next 5 cents worth , less than a 1/4 of a cup. We can deal with this.
So, you basically have the pumps configured to only dispense gasoline in $0.05 increments. That's still a heck of a requirement to impose on private businesses. :)


The state,county and municipal treasuries are dealing with millions, and not spliting your pennies.
You're missing my point. Let's say that there's a 5% sales tax, of which 3% goes to the state and 2% to the city (that's not too far off from the breakdown I actually pay right now).

Now, let's say the city has some new project (say, convention center improvement) and they want to tack on an additional sales tax to pay for it. Right now, they can do that. Under your proposal, they can't: the total tax is fixed at 5%, and the only way the city could get more is if they made the state take less - which the state's obviously not going to willingly accept.

It's simply not going to work.

Just a note: I'm not saying that fractional sales tax is necessarily an impediment to getting rid of the penny. But the idea that sales tax can be arbitrarily (and nation-wide!) set to a multiple of 5% isn't going to work, no matter what the reason is for doing it.

EDIT: In fact, I'll put forth that sales tax is not an impediment to getting rid of the penny at all. Right now, I pay a sales tax of 5.92%. And if a one-hundredth of a percent tax is workable when the penny is the smallest coin, there certainly isn't going to be any problem with the nickel as the smallest coin.

danscope
2006-Dec-16, 02:02 AM
So, you basically have the pumps configured to only dispense gasoline in $0.05 increments. That's still a heck of a requirement to impose on private businesses. :)


You're missing my point. Let's say that there's a 5% sales tax, of which 3% goes to the state and 2% to the city (that's not too far off from the breakdown I actually pay right now).

Now, let's say the city has some new project (say, convention center improvement) and they want to tack on an additional sales tax to pay for it. Right now, they can do that. Under your proposal, they can't: the total tax is fixed at 5%, and the only way the city could get more is if they made the state take less - which the state's obviously not going to willingly accept.

It's simply not going to work.

Just a note: I'm not saying that fractional sales tax is necessarily an impediment to getting rid of the penny. But the idea that sales tax can be arbitrarily (and nation-wide!) set to a multiple of 5% isn't going to work, no matter what the reason is for doing it.

EDIT: In fact, I'll put forth that sales tax is not an impediment to getting rid of the penny at all. Right now, I pay a sales tax of 5.92%. And if a one-hundredth of a percent tax is workable when the penny is the smallest coin, there certainly isn't going to be any problem with the nickel as the smallest coin.

Yes...say they just "want to tack on....". I have a problem with municipalities that "Just want to max out their credit card all the time.
In Boston, Mayor Menino wants to sell off City Hall (Center of town location)
and "Build" a new one at....yes....the new facility for performing arts tent in South Boston,....water front property. I guess they haven't spent enough on the "Real Big Dig " lately.
I'm for the 5% tax . They can deal with the divy up after they collect.
Just my opinion.
It's not how much they spend, it's how "wisely" they spend.
Best regards, Dan

mickal555
2006-Dec-16, 03:09 AM
works fine here....

Gillianren
2006-Dec-16, 07:09 PM
Yes...say they just "want to tack on....". I have a problem with municipalities that "Just want to max out their credit card all the time.

Let me give you a better example, shall I?

Here in Washington, we pay variations on about 8%, depending on how much the county wants. About seven years ago, we passed an initiative setting license plate tabs at $35, whereas before, it had been based on the value of your vehicle. (I knew people whose tabs went up.) It was considered that we could do this because the state had about a billion-dollar surplus at the time. (I'm pretty sure we have a balanced budget amendment to the state constitution, but as you will see, this later failed to guarantee anything.)

So. Some people--those with new cars, primarily--saved literally hundreds to thousands of dollars. Everyone was excited, except those who understood the basic economic system. You see, that budget surplus had taken literally decades to build up, a little bit at a time. This meant that, at the time 695 passed, there was maybe a couple of million dollars extra a year. Now, while we had a balanced budget at the beginning of the fiscal year, the state had lost an enormous sum in the middle, and that surplus didn't last long, especially given the earthquake we had about two months after the initiative took effect, which damaged our capitol building and several major roads in the city, among other things.

So. Now the state was in debt. What's worse, people kept voting for these initiatives--he proposed several more that cut money to the state over the next few years--so the state kept losing money halfway through the fiscal year--once for cops, firefighters, etc.

And, naturally, the first one took its money out of the transit system, so bus service throughout the state plummeted. (The one of his that I know failed wanted to take even more money away from transit, and would set 90% of the state's transportation for building new roads. No one could figure out why this was supposed to be a good thing.) A county I used to live in now has the worst transit in the state--and before, it wasn't exactly great. No bus service on Sunday.

Now. Here in Thurston County, we chose to increase our sales tax because we really like our buses. Which is why we have some of the highest sales tax in the state, but I can get home after 8 PM most nights.

lti
2006-Dec-16, 11:54 PM
We got rid of out 1c and 2c coins many years ago. We just recently got rid of our 5c coins.

The world hasnt ended.

EFTPOS is used for almost all transactions here anyway so coins really dont matter. If you do use coins the price is just rounded to the nearest 10c

Ozzy
2006-Dec-17, 02:27 AM
I love $1 and $2 dollar coins. When you are broke you round up your change, and hey presto, its easy to collect $20.

Thats the main problem with 1c and 2c pieces, they are worth so little... a jar full to buy a can of coke! Now my loose change is worth something.

Now my pockets are much lighter and last longer.

The $1 and $2 coins are different sizes and thicknesses. Very easy to distinguish. The $1 coin is similar in size to a ten cent piece but has a smooth edge, where the 10c has a ribbed edge. This is for the benefit of the sight impaired.

The rounding up and down is not a problem. The cash registers do all the thinking for you.

danscope
2006-Dec-17, 04:11 AM
Let me give you a better example, shall I?

Here in Washington, we pay variations on about 8%, depending on how much the county wants. About seven years ago, we passed an initiative setting license plate tabs at $35, whereas before, it had been based on the value of your vehicle. (I knew people whose tabs went up.) It was considered that we could do this because the state had about a billion-dollar surplus at the time. (I'm pretty sure we have a balanced budget amendment to the state constitution, but as you will see, this later failed to guarantee anything.)

So. Some people--those with new cars, primarily--saved literally hundreds to thousands of dollars. Everyone was excited, except those who understood the basic economic system. You see, that budget surplus had taken literally decades to build up, a little bit at a time. This meant that, at the time 695 passed, there was maybe a couple of million dollars extra a year. Now, while we had a balanced budget at the beginning of the fiscal year, the state had lost an enormous sum in the middle, and that surplus didn't last long, especially given the earthquake we had about two months after the initiative took effect, which damaged our capitol building and several major roads in the city, among other things.

So. Now the state was in debt. What's worse, people kept voting for these initiatives--he proposed several more that cut money to the state over the next few years--so the state kept losing money halfway through the fiscal year--once for cops, firefighters, etc.

And, naturally, the first one took its money out of the transit system, so bus service throughout the state plummeted. (The one of his that I know failed wanted to take even more money away from transit, and would set 90% of the state's transportation for building new roads. No one could figure out why this was supposed to be a good thing.) A county I used to live in now has the worst transit in the state--and before, it wasn't exactly great. No bus service on Sunday.

Now. Here in Thurston County, we chose to increase our sales tax because we really like our buses. Which is why we have some of the highest sales tax in the state, but I can get home after 8 PM most nights.

Hi, You make some excellent points. Question: can a bus sytem be supported by the ridership with the fares they should be paying? Does pay for what you get make any sense at all? Bear in mind, I'm sort of a moderate.
And with the roads, here in Rhode Island, we are a crazy quilt with secondary roads, a legacy from colonial days, and with the advent of winter, we pay to throw expensive sand and SALT on them, to save our necks, rot our cars, and
damage our roads, so...we pay more for our gasoline taxes. I just paid $2.42
for 87 octane. Some day, that will be cheap ,I suppose.
The registration tax is a question matk for all states, but you can't have a situation that so penalizes anyone with a brand new car...that you have a state with nothing but $300 junkers..( I have seen this, and it's not good.) Frankly, I think $100 registration is closer to what we need to do the job.
I can gaurantee one thing: Most Government institutions will spend everything they can, and those who don't will be punished....severely.
Stll, I can envision a system without the penny. If a situation genuinely warrants it, and gets proper scrutiny, it should be funded. But that is a whole different world of debate, but it does touch on the realities of the penny.
There are ,of course, solutions. Just like medicine. Some taste better than others;some are more effective than others. Some work in a few days, and some, like the *^&*^&%^&turnpike toll booths , are PERMANENT!!!!! They beget more and more people collecting tolls, and serve to pay more into pensions than maintanance of the turnpike. It becomes an embedded monster.
Another subject beyond the scope of "the Penny".
It is certainly an interesting discussion. I hope your weather improves and
your lights stay on. Best regards, Dan

Gillianren
2006-Dec-17, 04:35 AM
Hi, You make some excellent points. Question: can a bus sytem be supported by the ridership with the fares they should be paying? Does pay for what you get make any sense at all? Bear in mind, I'm sort of a moderate.

No, it doesn't pay for itself, and in most locations, it's almost impossible to. However, have a working bus system is pretty much mandatory, as they found out down in LA when the transit people went on strike. Even the rich people were affected--because maids, cashiers, and restaurant bus boys couldn't get to work.


It is certainly an interesting discussion. I hope your weather improves and
your lights stay on. Best regards, Dan

Our lights should stay on at this point; the storm's mostly moved inland. My best friend, however, recently moved out to a house outside town. She lost power and therefore water--their water's from a well, and the pump's electric.

danscope
2006-Dec-17, 06:11 AM
Let me give you a better example, shall I?

Here in Washington, we pay variations on about 8%, depending on how much the county wants. About seven years ago, we passed an initiative setting license plate tabs at $35, whereas before, it had been based on the value of your vehicle. (I knew people whose tabs went up.) It was considered that we could do this because the state had about a billion-dollar surplus at the time. (I'm pretty sure we have a balanced budget amendment to the state constitution, but as you will see, this later failed to guarantee anything.)

So. Some people--those with new cars, primarily--saved literally hundreds to thousands of dollars. Everyone was excited, except those who understood the basic economic system. You see, that budget surplus had taken literally decades to build up, a little bit at a time. This meant that, at the time 695 passed, there was maybe a couple of million dollars extra a year. Now, while we had a balanced budget at the beginning of the fiscal year, the state had lost an enormous sum in the middle, and that surplus didn't last long, especially given the earthquake we had about two months after the initiative took effect, which damaged our capitol building and several major roads in the city, among other things.

So. Now the state was in debt. What's worse, people kept voting for these initiatives--he proposed several more that cut money to the state over the next few years--so the state kept losing money halfway through the fiscal year--once for cops, firefighters, etc.

And, naturally, the first one took its money out of the transit system, so bus service throughout the state plummeted. (The one of his that I know failed wanted to take even more money away from transit, and would set 90% of the state's transportation for building new roads. No one could figure out why this was supposed to be a good thing.) A county I used to live in now has the worst transit in the state--and before, it wasn't exactly great. No bus service on Sunday.

Now. Here in Thurston County, we chose to increase our sales tax because we really like our buses. Which is why we have some of the highest sales tax in the state, but I can get home after 8 PM most nights.

Hi, You make some excellent points. Question: can a bus sytem be supported by the ridership with the fares they should be paying? Does pay for what you get make any sense at all? Bear in mind, I'm sort of a moderate.
And with the roads, here in Rhode Island, we are a crazy quilt with secondary roads, a legacy from colonial days, and with the advent of winter, we pay to throw expensive sand and SALT on them, to save our necks, rot our cars, and
damage our roads, so...we pay more for our gasoline taxes. I just paid $2.42
for 87 octane. Some day, that will be cheap ,I suppose.
The registration tax is a question matk for all states, but you can't have a situation that so penalizes anyone with a brand new car...that you have a state with nothing but $300 $h9878t boxes...( I have seen this, and it's not good.) Frankly, I think $100 registration is closer to what we need to do the job.
I can gaurantee one thing: Most Government institutions will spend everything they can, and those who don't will be punished....severely.
Stll, I can envision a system without the penny. If a situation genuinely warrants it, and gets proper scrutiny, it should be funded. But that is a whole different world of debate, but it does touch on the realities of the penny.
There are ,of course, solutions. Just like medicine. Some taste better than others;some are more effective than others. Some work in a few days, and some, like the *^&*^&%^&turnpike toll booths , are PERMANENT!!!!! They beget more and more people collecting tolls, and serve to pay more into pensions than maintanance of the turnpike. It becomes an embedded monster.
Another subject beyond the scope of "the Penny".
It is certainly an interesting discussion. I hope your weather improves and
your lights stay on. Best regards, Dan

danscope
2006-Dec-17, 06:12 AM
Let me give you a better example, shall I?

Here in Washington, we pay variations on about 8%, depending on how much the county wants. About seven years ago, we passed an initiative setting license plate tabs at $35, whereas before, it had been based on the value of your vehicle. (I knew people whose tabs went up.) It was considered that we could do this because the state had about a billion-dollar surplus at the time. (I'm pretty sure we have a balanced budget amendment to the state constitution, but as you will see, this later failed to guarantee anything.)

So. Some people--those with new cars, primarily--saved literally hundreds to thousands of dollars. Everyone was excited, except those who understood the basic economic system. You see, that budget surplus had taken literally decades to build up, a little bit at a time. This meant that, at the time 695 passed, there was maybe a couple of million dollars extra a year. Now, while we had a balanced budget at the beginning of the fiscal year, the state had lost an enormous sum in the middle, and that surplus didn't last long, especially given the earthquake we had about two months after the initiative took effect, which damaged our capitol building and several major roads in the city, among other things.

So. Now the state was in debt. What's worse, people kept voting for these initiatives--he proposed several more that cut money to the state over the next few years--so the state kept losing money halfway through the fiscal year--once for cops, firefighters, etc.

And, naturally, the first one took its money out of the transit system, so bus service throughout the state plummeted. (The one of his that I know failed wanted to take even more money away from transit, and would set 90% of the state's transportation for building new roads. No one could figure out why this was supposed to be a good thing.) A county I used to live in now has the worst transit in the state--and before, it wasn't exactly great. No bus service on Sunday.

Now. Here in Thurston County, we chose to increase our sales tax because we really like our buses. Which is why we have some of the highest sales tax in the state, but I can get home after 8 PM most nights.

Hi, You make some excellent points. Question: can a bus sytem be supported by the ridership with the fares they should be paying? Does pay for what you get make any sense at all? Bear in mind, I'm sort of a moderate.
And with the roads, here in Rhode Island, we are a crazy quilt with secondary roads, a legacy from colonial days, and with the advent of winter, we pay to throw expensive sand and SALT on them, to save our necks, rot our cars, and
damage our roads, so...we pay more for our gasoline taxes. I just paid $2.42
for 87 octane. Some day, that will be cheap ,I suppose.
The registration tax is a question matk for all states, but you can't have a situation that so penalizes anyone with a brand new car...that you have a state with nothing but $300 junkers...( I have seen this, and it's not good.) Frankly, I think $100 registration is closer to what we need to do the job.
I can gaurantee one thing: Most Government institutions will spend everything they can, and those who don't will be punished....severely.
Stll, I can envision a system without the penny. If a situation genuinely warrants it, and gets proper scrutiny, it should be funded. But that is a whole different world of debate, but it does touch on the realities of the penny.
There are ,of course, solutions. Just like medicine. Some taste better than others;some are more effective than others. Some work in a few days, and some, like the *^&*^&%^&turnpike toll booths , are PERMANENT!!!!! They beget more and more people collecting tolls, and serve to pay more into pensions than maintanance of the turnpike. It becomes an embedded monster.
Another subject beyond the scope of "the Penny".
It is certainly an interesting discussion. I hope your weather improves and
your lights stay on. Best regards, Dan

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 09:45 AM
But the cards get more convenient as you go. For example, at my university, you can connect your checking account to your ID, and then when you go up to vending machines, you can use your card, and it costs less than it would with cash. You also get a discount for using your card at the parking garages, and you don't have to pay sales tax on food from the cafeteria if you use PLUS dollars attached to your card. Very convenient.

Hmmm ... so do you think those cost advantages would remain in place if cash were abolished?

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 09:53 AM
I can tell you from experience your systems will not be affected by losing such a denomination. However, there will be little to no benefit anyway. Now, instead of people not accepting 1s and 2s because they are rubbish money - people turn down the 5c piece for the same reason.



But that's crazy!! In the UK, if a retailer refuses to accept legal tender in exchange for goods or services, the debt is cancelled. Of course, there is a bit of common sense required (e.g. they won't let you get away with trying to buy a car using only a wheelbarrow-load of small change). I don't know exactly how it is defined, but as long as you tender no more than a handful of small change, the retailer is obliged to either accept it or cancel the debt.

Bus companies here tried, for a while, to insist that passengers had the correct change to pay for their ticket, but it didn't last long. If I understand correctly, under UK law, it is the party charging the fee that must be able to make change, never the other way around.

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 09:58 AM
That would result in forcing the closure of hundreds to thousands of Dollar Stores and similar. How can kids get money for band or scouts if we remove the legal tender we could give them? The saying "I'll buy that for a dollar" will lose it's very real meaning.



Getting rid of the dollar bill would not mean getting rid of the dollar. Just replace it with a coin. They are far more long-lived. Here in the UK, the pound note was replaced by coins about 20 years ago, except in Scotland, where the banks still print pound notes.

This gave rise to an interesting siuation. English 1 and 2 coins are legal tender in Scotland (as are the larger denominations, for which notes are still used), and Scottish notes of 5 and upward are legal tender in England, but an English retailer is entitled to reject a Scottish 1 note, because this is not legal tender in England (it is legal tender only in Scotland).

Ronald Brak
2006-Dec-17, 09:59 AM
I believe Freddo means people don't want to waste time dealing with 5 cent coins. They are legal tender, up to a certain amount.

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 10:05 AM
How much does it cost the government to mint a penny?

That question may not be significant though, since a penny gets spent multiple times. Still seems like an economic drain, though.

Probably not such a great drain. Here in the UK, coins tend to circulate for up to about 50 years before they are withdrawn (except when they, for instance, change the physical size of a coin - in such cases, after a year of transition, the old style stops being legal tender).

When the currency was decimalized, the old shilling became equivalent to 5 new pence, and the 5p coin was made the same size as the old shilling coin. Similarly the 10p coin and the 2s coin (or Florin, as it was known). Thus, even though I never woked with the "LSD" system (pounds, shillings and pence), I frequently used to get 1s and 2s coins (representing 5p and 10p respectively). More recently, of course, they down-sized the 5p and 10p coins and withdrew the larger ones from circulation.

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 10:16 AM
.... The trouble people predict with getting rid of pennies now, such as price inflation from lack of rounding and trouble calculating taxes and such, didn't happen then and wouldn't happen now, just like it didn't happen in European countries when switching from local native currencies to Euros or in Britain centuries before that when switch from a halves-of-halves fractioning to a decimal fractioning.



Eh? British coinage switched to decimal in about 1970, which is not "centuries" ago. And we still had farthings (one-quarter of a penny) up until some time in the '50s or '60s, I think.

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 10:26 AM
... the price of gasoline is metered
and priced at the pump and is mechanicaly taken care of. The next 5 cents worth , less than a 1/4 of a cup. We can deal with this.

There is, however, a principle, that being that you should get what you pay for, and should not pay extra just to make the sums easier.


... We can best use our copper for solar heating,electronics,wire, etc, where it shall do the most good...

I don't believe that the amount of copper circulating in the world's small change will significantly affect the amount of copper available for wiring and so on. This simply does not seem relevant.


We shall save in many ways, apparent and hidden.

Well, don't keep us guessing, tell us!


And we shall all get through the check-out a little faster,now and always,without some poor old soul who shall fidget in his or her pockets trying to find that penny" Dear,I'm sure I had one here somewhere...".

What, and you think this will change if you get rid of the 1-cent coin? It'll simply become "I'm sure I have a nickel in here somewhere..."

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-17, 10:36 AM
...we pay more for our gasoline taxes. I just paid $2.42
for 87 octane. Some day, that will be cheap ,I suppose.


Some day? Today! I'm assuming that's for a gallon. In the UK, we get charged anywhere from 85 to 105 pence per litre (which is, very roughly, about $8 per gallon), of which the vast majority is tax.

Then again, you really ought to complain about the gnat's pee you get sold as "gasoline". In the UK, you can get "Premium", which is 95 octane, or "Super / Ultimate / whatever" which is 97 octane. The latter is about 15 - 20 pence per litre more expensive than the former, but gives about 10% better fuel economy (unless you waste it all having fun).

Delvo
2006-Dec-17, 04:31 PM
Dollar and half-dollar coins have come and gone in the USA. Apparently, people don't like them much because they're bulkier and heavier than the paper dollar, so they've fallen out of use and been discontinued more than once.

I think they'll be necessary before long, though, because of inflation's effects on the quarter, dime, and nickel, and the machines that use them. For example, the laundromats around here recently went from taking 6 quarters at a time to taking 8 at a time, which is all that the coin tray's width can fit, so they can't increase again without serious changes... and vending machines that once hardly had anything priced over $0.50 now require over a dollar for most items but you still can't pay them with any coin bigger than a quarter... and half of the parking meters already don't take nickels or dimes anymore and will only give 10 or 15 minutes per quarter, so it usually takes quite a pile of them to get a practical amount of time...

Doodler
2006-Dec-17, 09:35 PM
Kennedy half dollars are still floating about, and lets be real about why the dollar coins repeatedly fail.

The US Treasury is run by idiots.

The Susan B Anthony. Nice idea, but then some knucklehead authorized a size virtually identical to the quarter. :rolleyes:

The Sacajuea dollar. Nice idea, but then they only put it out in limited circulation, which means the knucklehead coin collectors are now hording them in the hopes they'll be worth something someday. :neutral:

The higher value coin has failed because the higher brain functions of the people who execute them have failed, not because I've heard anyone complaining about the idea behind it.

PhantomWolf
2006-Dec-17, 09:46 PM
I've probably said it before, but if you let them, it won't end there. Our Treasury removed the 1 and 2c coins, now they have removed the 5c and our smallest coin is 10c. Give them another 10 years and the 10c is probably an endangered species too.

SolusLupus
2006-Dec-17, 11:11 PM
I'd say yes, get rid of the penny. It costs too many resources to make pennies to supply the entire U.S., and it's practically worthless. It takes 100 just to equal a dollar, and even the least important of things are just a little bit below a dollar.

danscope
2006-Dec-18, 01:41 AM
Some day? Today! I'm assuming that's for a gallon. In the UK, we get charged anywhere from 85 to 105 pence per litre (which is, very roughly, about $8 per gallon), of which the vast majority is tax.

Then again, you really ought to complain about the gnat's pee you get sold as "gasoline". In the UK, you can get "Premium", which is 95 octane, or "Super / Ultimate / whatever" which is 97 octane. The latter is about 15 - 20 pence per litre more expensive than the former, but gives about 10% better fuel economy (unless you waste it all having fun).

Hi, I often tell people about the dreadful prices paid for petrol in the UK. They scratch their foggy old heads and say ..."Really?".
You make an excellent point about the "gnat's P" our motors have to get along with. Detonation is a terrible thing, if one looks into an engine bore.
By the way.....currently restoring an Austin-Healy Mk1 "Bug-Eyed" Sprite,
which generates a mighty 45 HP. Had one back in my old High School days..'65.
Paid .23 cents/gallon for petrol back then. Surely went further with the Sprite!!

Best regards, Dan Bessette

Ronald Brak
2006-Dec-18, 01:45 AM
I've probably said it before, but if you let them, it won't end there. Our Treasury removed the 1 and 2c coins, now they have removed the 5c and our smallest coin is 10c. Give them another 10 years and the 10c is probably an endangered species too.

Well if your inflation rate averages around 3% your currency is going to lose half its value every 24 years. Smaller denomination coins and notes could be kept, but they wouldn't be very useful after a while. As for deflation I can't reccomend that at all and one of the reasons is that you can't push on a piece of string. A small, mostly consistant amount of inflation provides some "wriggle room" for the economy.

Ronald Brak
2006-Dec-18, 01:51 AM
The latter is about 15 - 20 pence per litre more expensive than the former, but gives about 10% better fuel economy (unless you waste it all having fun).

It might be just your car, but I don't think a higher octane rating would give 10% better economy. Increasing the octane rating is pretty easy, but it won't increase the energy content of the petrol. Adding ethanol is one way to increase the octane rating and that will decrease the energy content and fuel economy. You might get better performance, but I don't believe most cars would get better economy.

DOOMMaster
2006-Dec-18, 03:13 AM
It might be just your car, but I don't think a higher octane rating would give 10% better economy. Increasing the octane rating is pretty easy, but it won't increase the energy content of the petrol. Adding ethanol is one way to increase the octane rating and that will decrease the energy content and fuel economy. You might get better performance, but I don't believe most cars would get better economy.

Actually, it won't do either. You should only put in the octane of gasoline that your vehicle is designed to operate on, anything lower can cause engine knock, or pre-detonation, which can damage your engine. Using higher octane than recommended won't damage your engine but it will lower power production as well as fuel economy. This is due to the fact that higher octane requires more energy to to ignite and burn.

However, engines that operate on premium, higher octane gasoline can running higher compression ratios, which allows for more power. It's the oil companies that have lead people to believe using higher octane fuel will increase power, economy, and engine life. So if your car calls for 87 octane, there is no reason to put more expensive 93 octane in.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Dec-18, 04:28 AM
Actually, it won't do either. You should only put in the octane of gasoline that your vehicle is designed to operate on, anything lower can cause engine knock, or pre-detonation, which can damage your engine. Using higher octane than recommended won't damage your engine but it will lower power production as well as fuel economy. This is due to the fact that higher octane requires more energy to to ignite and burn.

However, engines that operate on premium, higher octane gasoline can running higher compression ratios, which allows for more power. It's the oil companies that have lead people to believe using higher octane fuel will increase power, economy, and engine life. So if your car calls for 87 octane, there is no reason to put more expensive 93 octane in.
Thel Advantage Rises wiith The Efficiency of The Engine, too ...

The One Thiing MOST Commonly Cited By The Few, was 100 Octane Aviation Fuel ...

It Only Added 30 Mph at Altitude, But it Let a Spitfire Run Rings, Around Any Messerschmidt Fighter it Ran Across!

danscope
2006-Dec-18, 05:13 AM
Hi, You see, it's when under a severe load that higher octane makes it's mark.
With less than high octane, under load (and an aircraft engine with that huge propeller out front is always under a severe load)is likely to enjoy severe damage in short order. The high octane gives you a
sustained burn and a smoother expanding flame front further down the cyclinder bore, without "detonation"( which is like putting a bomb inside your engine).
Pistons with large holes in them;conecting rods bent into the shape of a letter "S", and severe crankshaft failure are often times the result of low octane fuels
under a severe load, which may explain why racers (who pay such extraordinary sums of monies for their engines) and flyers ( who pay $25,000 and up for good,certificated recip engines) will gladly pay for high octane fuels.
When doing that kind of work..constantly, they pay top whack for the good stuff. I believe it was Jimmy Dolittle , a famous air racer and Army Aircorps
flyer who campaiged for higher octane fuel, early on, had much to do with this fuel being available at the right time for the RAF to do battle with the me-109's
and FW 190's. Power in a climb, a hard turn, and flat out speed is your friend , and high octane is your ally.
Best regards, Dan

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-18, 06:52 PM
I'm learning all sorts of new things on this thread. Great stuff, everyone.

I've also learnt on another thread that the difference between 87 octane in the US and 95 octane in the UK is very very small, because of the different ways of measuring the octane number.

My car specifies "at least" 95 octane. The higher octane gives it a touch more spirit, which means I tend to drive with a lighter right foot, hence the improvement in fuel economy.

sarongsong
2006-Dec-19, 09:51 AM
...I've also learnt on another thread that the difference between 87 octane in the US and 95 octane in the UK is very very small, because of the different ways of measuring the octane number...Please tell us more about these different ways, and whether this applies to the rest of Europe as well.

Dr Nigel
2006-Dec-20, 04:13 PM
Please tell us more about these different ways, and whether this applies to the rest of Europe as well.

Sarongsong, the post in which I found out about it was here:

http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=886840&postcount=81

Which linked to a post in an earlier thread:

http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=831704&postcount=17

To paraphrase, there are two principal methods by which octane number is measured. These are known as RON and MON. The figure quoted at the pump may be RON or MON or may be an average of the two. I think, in most of Europe, the RON figure is the figure supplied at the pump.

danscope
2006-Dec-22, 06:06 AM
And now, a word from our sponsor: The US Penny .
Yes, Folks....it's the penny. What would we do without it?????:think:

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2006-Dec-22, 06:17 AM
And now, a word from our sponsor: The US Penny .
Yes, Folks....it's the penny. What would we do without it?????:think:
Hmmm ...

Go MAD?

:wall:

danscope
2006-Dec-22, 06:20 AM
" Very well, ask him if he would like a martini? "
The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy :)

Rejinx
2006-Dec-22, 10:45 AM
remove the penny, nickel and quarter and make a two-cent coin made of copper that is the size of a dime, and a half-dollar coin about the size of a quarter. That way they wouldn't cost more to make then there face value and I think most people could deal with having to round up or down one cent. Five two-cent coins equals a dime, five dimes equals a half-doller, perfect.

Ray Morris
2007-Oct-22, 10:42 PM
Most of the "No" respondants feared that merchants would rip them off by always rounding the price up. Some other "No" respondants imagined a nonexistent complex problem with the federal and provincial sales taxes.

Firstly, the taxes would be computed and included (before any rounding) exactly as they are done today. Secondly the rounding would be done on the TOTAL (after tax), not on individual articles. Consequently the merchants would win some and the customers would win some. Buy one 99-cent candy bar and the merchant gains 1 cent. Buy three 99-cent candy bars ($2.97 and the merchant loses two cents.

If the authorities were to educate the public on the proposed elimination of the Canadian penny, then the measure could be sensibly debated.

phaishazamkhan
2007-Oct-23, 02:43 AM
Those Europeans can remove Pluto's status of a planet but they damn well can have my one cent piece when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Van Rijn
2007-Oct-23, 03:17 AM
For anyone that didn't notice, this thread goes back to 2004, with some activity in 2006.

danscope
2007-Oct-23, 04:42 AM
Most of the "No" respondants feared that merchants would rip them off by always rounding the price up. Some other "No" respondants imagined a nonexistent complex problem with the federal and provincial sales taxes.

Firstly, the taxes would be computed and included (before any rounding) exactly as they are done today. Secondly the rounding would be done on the TOTAL (after tax), not on individual articles. Consequently the merchants would win some and the customers would win some. Buy one 99-cent candy bar and the merchant gains 1 cent. Buy three 99-cent candy bars ($2.97 and the merchant loses two cents.

If the authorities were to educate the public on the proposed elimination of the Canadian penny, then the measure could be sensibly debated.

***************
Hi, I often thought that if Buckminster Fuller were asked this question, he would comment on the pitifull inefficiency of employing all that copper for such a trivial purpose, and would rather see that copper employed in making solar hot water , tubing, and so many other important applications of this noble metal. It's not about disrespecting the penny. It's about freeing the resource for noble purpose,.....and saving us all some time and money.
Im sure Bucky would approve.
Best regards, Dan

Neverfly
2007-Oct-23, 05:05 AM
Penny's are copper plated zinc.

ETA: I have a few steel pennies lying around to... From WWII.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-23, 08:09 PM
Penny's are copper plated zinc.

ETA: I have a few steel pennies lying around to... From WWII.

<Nitpick> Around to what? Oh, too. Okay. :D </Nitpick>

Mister Earl
2007-Oct-24, 02:40 PM
Get rid of all change, and introduce the "Tenth", the "Quarter", and the "Half". Accurate enough for any small transaction.

hhEb09'1
2007-Oct-24, 03:13 PM
Get rid of all change, Some people are against all change. Wasn't it Heraclitus that said change is inevitable? I guess the question is, do we change and get rid of change, or do we not change and keep the change?

danscope
2007-Oct-26, 05:22 AM
Small change reduces waste and improves efficiency. But the penny can be
redundant .

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-26, 05:44 AM
Those Europeans can remove Pluto's status of a planet but they damn well can have my one cent piece when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

You'd have to pay me at least a dollar before I touch your cold dead hands.

Mister Earl
2007-Oct-26, 02:08 PM
While we're at it, let's just redo the entire monetary system, and go with something resembling the yen. 1 credit being the smallest piece of currency, and scaling up. Oh, and get rid of all paper bills. Small coins instead. One credit, five credits, ten credits, twenty credits, fifty credits, one hundred credits, and what have you. Maybe institute a purely electronic currency system.

Mister Earl
2007-Oct-26, 02:12 PM
Maybe go even more old school, and we'd all carry a small pouch of gold dust. Bring back interesting employment questions, such as "How much gold can you raise in a pinch?"

Noclevername
2007-Oct-26, 02:23 PM
Those Europeans can remove Pluto's status of a planet but they damn well can have my one cent piece when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Any rings or gold fillings I could pry out? :sick:

phaishazamkhan
2007-Oct-26, 10:29 PM
Any rings or gold fillings I could pry out? :sick:

oh lawd izzat sum auschwitz humor?

danscope
2007-Oct-26, 11:30 PM
America shall never be in favour of eliminating cash. There's a damned limit on
intruding into the fair market place. Personal business. This is a right .
Best regards, Dan

Noclevername
2007-Oct-26, 11:33 PM
Small change is only inconvenient to those who have plenty of dollars. For people who literally have to count every penny, losing it would hurt.

KaiYeves
2007-Oct-27, 01:45 AM
No, they're great for doing magic tricks, if nothing else.
(Hey, this is my 1,985th post! Titanic! Titanic!)

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-27, 03:10 AM
Small change is only inconvenient to those who have plenty of dollars. For people who literally have to count every penny, losing it would hurt.

I doubt it as when I was in the United States I didn't see anything that cost a penny. But if it is a problem simply pass a law that 1-2 cents is rounded down and 3-4 cents is rounded up and the people who have to count every penny can amass a 1-2 cent surplus by carefully arranging their purchases so they will benefit from the rounding down. I doubt many people would do this, but if those one or two pennies are important they could.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-27, 03:12 AM
I doubt it as when I was in the United States I didn't see anything that cost a penny. But if it is a problem simply pass a law that 1-2 cents is rounded down and 3-4 cents is rounded up and the people who have to count every penny can amass a 1-2 cent surplus by carefully arranging their purchases so they will benefit from the rounding down. I doubt many people would do this, but if those one or two pennies are important they could.

So whatever business keeps track is basically on the honor system? I see a lot of potential for abuse there...

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-27, 03:22 AM
So whatever business keeps track is basically on the honor system? I see a lot of potential for abuse there...

I dunno. It's just what we do here. I don't really see a lot of room for abuse.

MANAGER: Hey, Matilda!

MATILDA: Yeah, wotcha want?

MANAGER: Instead of rounding down one and two cents and rounding up three and four cents like everyone else in the country we are going to round down one, two, three and four cents. And to heck with the Fair Trades act!

MATILDA: Don't be such a ******* drongo ya dopey mongrel.

MANAGER: Curses! Foiled again!

Noclevername
2007-Oct-27, 03:41 AM
I dunno. It's just what we do here. I don't really see a lot of room for abuse.


Yeah, but this time it'd be in the hands of Americans. And you know what we're like.

SeanF
2007-Oct-29, 02:10 PM
But if it is a problem simply pass a law that 1-2 cents is rounded down and 3-4 cents is rounded up and the people who have to count every penny can amass a 1-2 cent surplus by carefully arranging their purchases so they will benefit from the rounding down. I doubt many people would do this, but if those one or two pennies are important they could.
I doubt any people would do this. Our sales tax rate is (currently) 5.92%. How quickly (and easily) can you to tell me whether a $2.89 gallon of milk, $1.82 carton of eggs, and $0.89 loaf of bread would round down or up after taxes? :)

Besides, the people who are counting every penny are probably already buying only what they need, only when they need it. Little hard to do any additional "arranging of purchases" there.

Why not just always round down to the nearest nickel? :)

Ronald Brak
2007-Oct-29, 08:53 PM
I doubt any people would do this. Our sales tax rate is (currently) 5.92%. How quickly (and easily) can you to tell me whether a $2.89 gallon of milk, $1.82 carton of eggs, and $0.89 loaf of bread would round down or up after taxes?

Have tax included in the display price. That's what we do here. Or you could regard it as a learning opportunity. Obviously these people who count every penny already have some maths skills. Maybe you could breed a new generation of mathematical geniuses this way. Perhaps you should throw in a few logs and squares into that there rounding formula.


Why not just always round down to the nearest nickel?

No reason why you couldn't. Prices would rise to cover this, but not by an amount I would notice. But by rounding up or down you could give people for whom every penny counts a thrill. (Personally I don't see it myself, but I'm not one to stand in the way of other people's fun.)

SeanF
2007-Oct-29, 09:34 PM
Have tax included in the display price. That's what we do here.
That would increase our taxes and make things (marginally) more expensive.


Or you could regard it as a learning opportunity. Obviously these people who count every penny already have some maths skills.
Doesn't take too much math skills to count the pennies you've spent and what you have left. Noclevername's point about small coins not being inconvenient to those with small incomes has nothing to do with any real math.


No reason why you couldn't. Prices would rise to cover this, but not by an amount I would notice.
Prices shouldn't change. The rounding down should reduce the government's take, not the business'.


But by rounding up or down you could give people for whom every penny counts a thrill. (Personally I don't see it myself, but I'm not one to stand in the way of other people's fun.)
You're still missing the point. It has nothing to do with actual counting of pennies. It has to do with how much money you have left after you've made your purchase, and that's where rounding up would (occasionally) hurt.

Noclevername
2007-Oct-30, 12:38 AM
The cost of changing the system would likely be more than the cost of leaving it as it is.