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TriangleMan
2004-Jul-22, 07:24 PM
Will this make Coors taste better or Molson taste worse? :wink:
news article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1526&ncid=1526&e=1&u=/afp/20040722/wl_canada_afp/canada_us_beer_040722135606)

Parrothead
2004-Jul-22, 07:27 PM
I just have to wonder if Molson Canadian will still be considered Canadian, or will it have dual-citizenship. :wink:

gethen
2004-Jul-22, 08:42 PM
They'd better not mess with the Canadian! Some things are sacred!

Swift
2004-Jul-22, 08:50 PM
IMHO Coors could only go up hill. :D

gethen
2004-Jul-22, 08:55 PM
How to tell this one without getting banned.........
What's the difference between Coors Light and, um, the act of procreation performed in a canoe?










They are both _______ close to water.
Molson Canadian, on the other hand, is what good lager ought to taste like.

Ut
2004-Jul-22, 09:05 PM
I once asked one of my roommates what Coors "not-Light" was. He said "Molson Export". I'm not sure if this is funner in the current context or not...

Lurker
2004-Jul-22, 09:10 PM
How to tell this one without getting banned.........
What's the difference between Coors Light and, um, the act of procreation performed in a canoe?
They are both _______ close to water.
Molson Canadian, on the other hand, is what good lager ought to taste like.
BA says he doesn't like bad words implied by leaving out letters!! [-(

oops... how did I know which word you were thinking with no letters....
Too much Monty Python in my life!! :o

gethen
2004-Jul-22, 09:32 PM
You're probably right, Lurker. Should've let that one go by, but the temptation was too great to resist. Maybe I should apologize in advance for the misstep. I guess there's not much point in deleting it, since it's been quoted already. :oops:

Lurker
2004-Jul-22, 09:43 PM
You're probably right, Lurker. Should've let that one go by, but the temptation was too great to resist. Maybe I should apologize in advance for the misstep. I guess there's not much point in deleting it, since it's been quoted already. :oops:
Really!! We look at someone with your post count to set an example!! :wink:

gethen
2004-Jul-22, 09:46 PM
Really!! We look at someone with your post count to set an example!! :wink:
NOooooooo!!!!!! I can't take that kind of pressure.

Ut
2004-Jul-22, 09:48 PM
No one said that example had to be good ;)

JustAGuy
2004-Jul-22, 10:31 PM
Molson Canadian is a terrible, terrible beer. It's hard to fathom how a beer could taste worse... and then you have a Coors Light. CL wins my vote for Single Worse Example Of Beer On The Planet. Hands down. 0 out of 10.

Of course, Canadian isn't too far behind it, perhaps a .1 or a .2 out of 10.

Generally, these kinds of beers are so disregarded that people won't even grace them with the term "lager." A new genre has been created, titled "American Pilsner," basically implying crap. (There is even some backlash at using this term to describe mass-market brews, as American Pilsner can be applied to other beers, as well).

The idea behind mass market beer is to brew for as little flavour as possible, then filter what you get to within an inch of its insipid life. Granted, this brewing process is definitely not easy (any mistake can add flavour), and requires a very high level of technology and quality control. Ironically, mass market brewers are some of the most talented brewers in the world.

If you want a proper lager, there are dozens of old world imports that do it right, and almost certainly a micro or regional brewery in your neighbourhood cooks up something infinitely better.

/beer snob rant

gethen
2004-Jul-22, 11:48 PM
Well, it takes a difference of opinion to make a horse race, doesn't it? I've brewed lagers myself, as well as ales, and the result is a much more flavorful version than one can buy at the local giant retailer, but then, homemade bread is superior to what you buy there as well. I have heard Pilsener Urquell described as the best of its type, but I don't care for it myself-a bit too floral for me. Rolling Rock, Kirin, all are good. My favorite is Molson Ice, which many authorities rate very highly, but my spouse hates. All in all, give me a Young's Double Chocolate Stout or a Grant's Perfect Porter any day. I prefer those ales. But I would not argue anyone's choice of beers for him/herself. Maybe I don't understand why someone might like or dislike a particular beer, but that doesn't mean it's terrible. Just that I don't like it.
And incidentally, pilsener is not an American term. It applies to a type of lager that was first brewed in Czechoslovakia (that Pilsener Urquell) in 1842.

tuffel999
2004-Jul-23, 12:48 AM
Molson Golden.....mmmmmmmmm.........


Coors.....found in restroom.

Spacewriter
2004-Jul-23, 03:03 AM
I'd agree that Coors Light is just this side of Bear Whiz. However, Killian's Red is actually pretty decent. I say this as a confirmed Guinness Stout lover, so what do I know, eh? (Except that I grew up in Colorado at a time when a Coors was a kid's first beer.) ;)

TriangleMan
2004-Jul-23, 10:35 AM
Molson has a lot of PR to do, after years of "I am Canadian" and other very pro-Canada ads they'll have to backtrack since they'll be half-American.

Perhaps change the name of the beer: Molson part-Canadian? Molson North American? Coors Ice? :P

Swift
2004-Jul-23, 12:22 PM
Killian's Red is good. Most mass-market beers are barely potable.

Local micro-brews tend to be the best, though I've had some nasty ones too. Around here the best is Great Lake's Brewing Company. They have actually won awards in international competitions. They have a nice tour of their brewery and they try to tie into local Cleveland history. For example, they are housed in an old tavern that was reportedly frequented by Elliott Ness when he was Cleveland Safety Director. They give their beers names like "Burning River Ale", "Elliott Ness", and "Locktender Lager". And no I don't get a kick-back :( , but you know, you should always support your local brewmaster. :D Cheers.

AZgazer
2004-Jul-23, 01:44 PM
My bar beverage of choice is Fat Tire which I can't find in Illinois. *sigh* Nice Amber it is, very nice out of the tap, but quite terrible bottled. *shrugs*

I have resorted to Moosehead when it's not Bombay Sapphire and Tonic. Not a bad 2nd choice IMO.

Wally
2004-Jul-23, 01:57 PM
For all the belly-aching on how watery Coors Light is, it CAN'T be worse than Natural Light! I sail on Wed. nights, and am basically the only one to bring beer to the boat. This, even though the rest of the crew has absolutely NO qualms about helping themselves to several cans. This in and of itself is fine by me (and is why I buy the cheap stuff to begin with), but what DID bother me is all the complaining they'd do, can after can after can.

Typical Wed. night on the boat:

Glug glug glug. . . "why do you BUY this crap!" glug glug glug. . ."hand me another, will ya please"


Sheeeesh. . .

I've since "upgraded" to busch Light. . . 8-[

tuffel999
2004-Jul-23, 03:22 PM
You guys need Sweetwater..........good.....good stuff!

iFire
2004-Jul-23, 03:53 PM
I've heard that the local beer is slightly popular around the world... Forgot what it was though... :P

Anheuser-Bush is based here in St. Louis... Just I have no idea how any of their beers taste.... Hell... I have no idea how beer tastes... period...

JustAGuy
2004-Jul-23, 04:07 PM
Glug glug glug. . . "why do you BUY this crap!" glug glug glug. . ."hand me another, will ya please"


Sheeeesh. . .

I've since "upgraded" to busch Light. . . 8-[

That reminds me of university, where I'd show up to a party with two cases of beer. "Real" beer (whatever micro struck my fancy that day) which I'd hide in the crisper, and "decoy" beer (mmm... Bullmax), which I'd leave in plain sight.

Surprisingly, no one ever figured this out, or much cared for that matter.

rockatship
2005-Feb-03, 03:49 AM
Yah, no one cares in university. We don't have the money to care unfortunately.
We probably pump in more Carling (Molson's value), Lucky (Labbatt's value) and Bohemian (not sure the company behind that one) than we do water in this house.
As for Canadian - the mass production has taken most of the goodness out of it. I hear from ancient history lessons that its original form was rather excellent though. Unfortunately we'll never be able to try it.

My vote for worst popular beer must fall on Bud though. I can't think of a more unimpressive taste.

Best beer? There are many. If any of you in Ontario (come visit) are in the Guelph area (they sell it province-wide in both LCBO and beer store as well), try a beer from the Wellington brewery. My choice is County Ale, if you like a flavourful dark.

Swift
2005-Feb-03, 02:21 PM
Welcome to the pub, rockatship. Pull up a stool, have a brew, and lets talk. :D

teddyv
2005-Feb-03, 03:19 PM
I was at a beer festival a few years back and a micro-brew from Salmon Arm BC had a stout called "The Back Hand of God". Gotta love that name (it was quite good).

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-03, 06:56 PM
Debating beers is like debating makes of automobiles. So much depends on what you've grown up on; what your family, friends, community exposure was, etc. You can talk until you are blue in the face about the various merits of your favorite - it only serves to express your needs, not what is good for everyone. This is about preference, not evidence. Someone is not wrong for liking the typical watery American brew. There's a word for people who think everyone should be like they are, . . . I'll think of it later - or you can fill it in.

Wally
2005-Feb-03, 07:05 PM
Cool! A profusion of newcomers today!! :D

Wecome Farmer and Rockat! And might I add, a great thread to bring back from yester-year!

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-03, 07:11 PM
Thanks for the welcome. Been following this board for a long time, ever since a close friend got really hooked on Planet X, and I had to find out what all the noise was about. Look forward to future chats.

Wally
2005-Feb-03, 07:14 PM
and you didn't come out of the shadows when the "member drive" was going on a month or 2 back?? :)

Regardless, it's always good to have another midwesterner in the ranks! 8)

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-03, 09:07 PM
Even though they talk funny

Gramma loreto
2005-Feb-03, 11:18 PM
Regarding the vast majority of mainstream, mass-market beers, I'll echo my grandmother's sentiment about all beer..."You can put it back in the horse for all I care."

Although I favor brews like Guinness and Newcastle, I'm more fond of our local and regional brews...

Alaskan Brewing Co. (http://www.alaskanbeer.com) - my favorites are the Oatmeal Stout, Smoked Porter, and the seasonal Winter Ale (brewed with spruce tips!)

Other favorites are the Black Butte Porter and Obsidian Stout from Deschutes Brewery (http://www.deschutesbrewery.com/splash/default.aspx) in Bend, Oregon.

ChesleyFan
2005-Feb-03, 11:25 PM
I will admit that I drink plenty of Budweiser. Not exactly the thing to do when you're living in the land of Miller...

Leinenkugel's Berry Weiss is a nice diversion in the summer. Though after a beer or two I switch to mixed drinks.

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-04, 12:02 AM
I grew up in the Chicago area, my dad and uncles all drank Meister Brau. Don't know if they even brew it any more. My favorites are Grolsch partial to the red) and Newcastle Brown Ale. I like a beer with very strong flavor. But, what I left out of my previous rant was the $ thing, which I think someone else alluded to. A 6 of Heinie's would have cost my dad 2 hours of pay. Not to be classist or elitist, but I tend to believe you are fond of what you are willing to spend, or can afford - whichever is less. If the very best car you could afford is a loaded Cadillac, then you would probably be very happy and proud to own one; and so on and so forth.

Charlie in Dayton
2005-Feb-04, 04:28 AM
Even though my beer-swillin' daze are long behind me, I still fondly remember a few things...

...the case of unpasteurized Coors I smuggled back to Ohio in my truck drivin' days...and no, I was not the inspiration for 'Smokey and The Bandit"...

...that sixer of Point Special someone brought back from Stevens Point WI one time...

...that first Miller High Life after Air Force basic training...

...memories...

Bawheid
2005-Feb-04, 09:53 AM
You try to get lurkers to post and they don't; you talk about beer and suddenly they're coming out the woodwork. :D

Welcome Rockat and Farmer.

Caledonian Breweries' Deuchars IPA is my usual beer, thoug I am partial to a number of the guest beers available in my local.

captain swoop
2005-Feb-04, 10:47 AM
I drink in the 'Tap and Spile' on Guisborough Market Place, it has a minimum of 8 guest beers in addition to it's 'mass market' stuff and regular real ales.

Last night I was on the Theakstons 'Old Peculiar' 'Dark Isle' Stout and Camerons 'Strong Arm'

It is sad to see people coming into the best 'Real Ale' pub in the area and drinking fizzy 'lager' or John Smiths 'Smooth' (a kind of cold fizzy bitter aimed at Lager drinkers i.e. no taste)



Sigh.

Plus we get 2 bands a week, Rocl on Wednesday night (usualy covers) and something a bit different on Sundays.

If I am in a pub that doesn't have anything but 'Lager ' or somesuch I go for a bottle of Newcastle Brown Ale.

Wally
2005-Feb-04, 01:01 PM
Even though they talk funny

Back atcha, buddy!!! :P

Wally
2005-Feb-04, 01:08 PM
Leinenkugel's Berry Weiss is a nice diversion in the summer. Though after a beer or two I switch to mixed drinks.

I'm secure enough in my masculinity to admit I am a fan of weiss (wheat) beers on occassion. I've got a favorite German restaurant I visit in Peoria when in the area. Nothing quite as tasty as a tall, cold Paulaner (sp). You take a slice of lemon, take careful aim, throw it with force so it wedges in the bottom of your glass. Invert glass over 1 liter bottle of Paulaner. Invert bottle/glass together. Slow lift up on bottle as beer fills glass. Remove bottle from beer completely when near top to get a nice head. Roll bottle on table a few times to convert leftover foam into liquid. Pour that last bit of golden nectar into glass. Enjoy!

Bawheid
2005-Feb-04, 01:23 PM
Wally: Paulaner. (http://www.paulaner.de/) Click on the arrow for the virtual beergarden and shop. Whoever did this website has too much time on their hands. :D

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-04, 01:44 PM
Yeah, so it took a thread about quality beverages to get me out of the woodwork. It's one of the few things about which I'm a bit of a snob. A habit I picked up doing a school year in Northumberland. Spent as much time hanging out at places like the Dirty Bottles, Tanners Arms, and Nags Head as I did in class. Awesome education in the finer things. The live ales sampled there and in my trips into Scotland were most delicious. Anyone out there familiar with the Alnwick pubs? If so, pleasure me with your favorite reminisce; it's been 20 years since I've been there.

Gmann
2005-Feb-04, 03:08 PM
Wally: Paulaner. (http://www.paulaner.de/) Click on the arrow for the virtual beergarden and shop. Whoever did this website has too much time on their hands. :D

He may have had a lot of time on his hands, but if those hands had something to do with the brewing side of the company, all I can say is =D> . I have had a bottle or 50 of Paulaner in the 9 years I spent in Germany, and have waited a long time to utter the words "Ein Hefewiezen, Bitte". I am stuck drinking the local brew (American) since most "exports" taste nothing like the original. Perhaps one day I will take a trip back to Germany, and revisit the good stuff.

Wally
2005-Feb-04, 03:13 PM
Gmann. Next time you're in C. Illinois, swing by the Haufbrau House in Peoria. Pretty sure their beers (most anyway) are imported from Germany rather than being the locally licensed copies. . .

Cool site Bawheid! Couldn't visit the whole thing, as I'm at work right now, but I'll do so later on. . .

JimTKirk
2005-Feb-04, 03:15 PM
Wally: Paulaner. (http://www.paulaner.de/) Click on the arrow for the virtual beergarden and shop. Whoever did this website has too much time on their hands. :D

He may have had a lot of time on his hands, but if those hands had something to do with the brewing side of the company, all I can say is =D> . I have had a bottle or 50 of Paulaner in the 9 years I spent in Germany, and have waited a long time to utter the words "Ein Hefewiezen, Bitte". I am stuck drinking the local brew (American) since most "exports" taste nothing like the original. Perhaps one day I will take a trip back to Germany, and revisit the good stuff.

I agree... give me any local german brew over even the "best" that even Sam Adams has to offer... :wink:

Bawheid
2005-Feb-04, 03:46 PM
Hmmmm, you want German beer, we want the BA to talk in Europe. Baldrick I think I have a plan so cunning you could pin a tail to it and call it a weasel............... :D

JimTKirk
2005-Feb-04, 04:06 PM
Hmmmm, you want German beer, we want the BA to talk in Europe. Baldrick I think I have a plan so cunning you could pin a tail to it and call it a weasel............... :D


Hmmm. Days listening to the BA 8) and nights drinking real german beer (I vote for a sampling from different places every night). Tough decision... OK, you've twisted my arm! :lol:

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-04, 04:14 PM
So how do the German beers compare to the live ales of Scotland? I've not been to Germany, and don't know if their brews are the equivalent of ales. I actually know very little about brews, but I know what pleases my palate.

captain swoop
2005-Feb-04, 04:31 PM
Well you sum it up in your question, In the UK we drink Ale, in Germany they drink Beer.
The difference is a brewing one. Ale uses a different type of yeast to beer.

Lager is 'Bottom Fermented' Thats at the end of the fermentation the yeast sinks to the bottom, it converts more of the sugars in the Malt into alcohol giving a light and 'cleaner' taste.

Ale is 'Top fermented' That is the yeast stays on the top after fermentation and some types of sugars aren't converted giving a more 'fruity' and 'malty' flavour.

Bottom fermenting yeast works better at lower temperatures than top fermenting yeasts.

Try this site (http://www.beersinabox.com/aboutbrewing_terms.php) for everything you needed to know about brewing beer.

I would put a 'Live, real ale' above any European beer.

Sam Smiths Old Brewery Bitter, still brewed in 18th Century Slate 'Squares' and delivered 'live' and conditioning in Casks, like the hundreds of other 'real ales' willstand against the best from anywhere.

Unfortunatyely the majority of Pubs want pasteurised 'Keg' beer, it keeps for months whereas a Real Ale will go off after about a week, the beer is still 'conditioning' and fermenting in the cask. so the pub needs a good turnover to keep it at it's best.

Bawheid
2005-Feb-04, 04:34 PM
Apples and oranges. German/Czech etc. are good beers if you want a cold pint; real ales in Scotland are good for a winters evening in front of a fire.

Gramma loreto
2005-Feb-04, 06:09 PM
Holy cow, how I miss german beer...especially the fest beers. My experience was that, generally, Germany (at least in der Pfalz) is the land of pilsners and lagers. Park (esp. Perminator) and Becks (esp. Dark) often came home with me. (This was quite conveniently done since a neighborhood beer vendor lived right across the street) Real Munich-brewed Löwenbräu was a pleasant surprise. Bitburger was an acquired taste...when it was all there was to drink. However, I much preferred the exceptions and the more obscure. Schwarzbier, dunkels, and bocks did it for me. Weizen and hefeweizen did not.

Dinkelacker is one brand that gets imported here but it's nowhere near as tasty as the festbier I had at Oktoberfest in Bad Caanstadt (Stuttgart). BTW, this fest may be Germany's best kept secret. I much preferred this fest to the overcrowded one in Munich. Other favorite beers included Köstritzer Oktoberfest and Schwarzbier, König Ludwig Dunkel, and a number micro and even nameless "nano" brews.

gethen
2005-Feb-04, 11:26 PM
So are there any other home brewers out there? I just spent a few bucks to set up a kegging system and I can't wait to brew the next batch. If I have to actually buy beer, I like Grant's Perfect Porter, Young's Double Chocolate Stout, and just about any good bitter.

ChesleyFan
2005-Feb-05, 02:43 AM
So are there any other home brewers out there? I just spent a few bucks to set up a kegging system and I can't wait to brew the next batch. If I have to actually buy beer, I like Grant's Perfect Porter, Young's Double Chocolate Stout, and just about any good bitter.

Heh. For Christmas my best friend bought me a kit to brew three varieties of homemmade beer... but I can't use it 'cuz he didn't realize you need a kegging system to brew it.

Oh well. The thought that counts, right? :wink:

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-05, 10:07 AM
Our neighborhood brew bunch (I'm a charter member) has a couple dozen of the five gallon kegs--all empty at the present time. Over the past five years, we've brewed almost a hundred 15 gallon batches. A couple people have even grown the hops. We grind our own grain--but we have yet to grow it. :)

Gmann
2005-Feb-05, 01:53 PM
My experience was that, generally, Germany (at least in der Pfalz) is the land of pilsners and lagers. Park (esp. Perminator) and Becks (esp. Dark) often came home with me.

Sounds like someone was not too far from Kaiserslautern. I remember those names, Esp. Perminator, but we called them "terminators", there was a good reason. Like the good Doctor once said; " Drink 6 of these, and call me in a few days, when you wake up." Now I have to do some traveling. Peoria, to test out this brew house( could be arranged), and Scotland to see if Ale can stand with beer (I'm betting it can). This could get expensive. 8-[

gethen
2005-Feb-05, 02:01 PM
Heh. For Christmas my best friend bought me a kit to brew three varieties of homemmade beer... but I can't use it 'cuz he didn't realize you need a kegging system to brew it.

Oh well. The thought that counts, right? :wink:
You probably don't need a kegging system. You can certainly bottle the beer. You just need some non-screw type bottles, the caps (available from any home-brew supply) and a bottle capper. (Actually, most kits contain the caps and some also have a capper.) All pretty inexpensive stuff. The brewing is all done before you either keg or bottle the beer.

A Thousand Pardons: Have any really good bitter recipes to share?
I'm hoping to grow some hops this summer. So far I've limited myself to grain/extract brews, but I think I'm about ready to try all-grain. I also have a grinder and Hubby bought me a double burner propane stove to encourage the all-grain changeover, so I have no excuse for not doing so.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-05, 05:40 PM
A Thousand Pardons: Have any really good bitter recipes to share?
I'm hoping to grow some hops this summer. So far I've limited myself to grain/extract brews, but I think I'm about ready to try all-grain. I also have a grinder and Hubby bought me a double burner propane stove to encourage the all-grain changeover, so I have no excuse for not doing so.
Here's one (http://www.geocities.com/darilbrothers/ag_brew1.html) that won a red ribbon at a local beer-tasting. I see we have some updating to do!

Gramma loreto
2005-Feb-06, 08:27 PM
Sounds like someone was not too far from Kaiserslautern.

Exactly right, Gmann. Ramstein. 86th Aeromedical Evacuation Sq. My last duty station prior to retirement in '99. IIRC, Pirmanator was named for Pirmasens where Park has a brewery.

captain swoop
2005-Feb-07, 11:36 AM
Apples and oranges. German/Czech etc. are good beers if you want a cold pint; real ales in Scotland are good for a winters evening in front of a fire.

Not at all, a nice Hoppy beer like Circlemaster or Summer Lightning are ideal on a hot summers day, served at proper cellar temperature they are every bit as refreshing as a Lager. I am biased, I haven't tasted a single German or Czech beer that I like, they all lack any depth or flavour. Now Belgian beers are a different thing, some ofthem are OK.

Gmann
2005-Feb-07, 02:01 PM
Pirmanator was named for Pirmasens where Park has a brewery.

I heard that story too, so it must be true. I was at Rhein Ordinance Barracks '92-'95. I was the Communications Chief for the 549th Maint Co. and retired in '95. Looks like we probably hung out in the same Gasthauses at different times. For everyone else, Pirminator was called Terminator because of it's higher alcohol content. It was usually fed to "newbies" who bragged about being able to "drink like fish, and not get wet". Their bragging usually ended the next day when they woke up, and had no recollection of where they were (or even who they were). Those were the times. :D

Wally
2005-Feb-07, 02:05 PM
Our neighborhood brew bunch (I'm a charter member) has a couple dozen of the five gallon kegs--all empty at the present time. Over the past five years, we've brewed almost a hundred 15 gallon batches. A couple people have even grown the hops. We grind our own grain--but we have yet to grow it. :)

Heh. . . I was over at a friend's house a few years back when he was brewing up a batch of home made beer. His wife had picked him up a 5 gal. glass jug to use for the fermenting process. Well, he either figured the jug was tempored, or he just wasn't thinking at all. He poured the still very warm brew (can't remember what it's called at this point in the process) and then set the jug into cold water to cool it down. a few seconds later, we hear a loud "pop", and we go to the sink to see 5 gallons of beer pouring out a crack in the bottom of the jug.

All his time and effort for naught! He didn't think it was very funny at the time. . . :)

gethen
2005-Feb-07, 02:13 PM
Oooh. That's not funny. It's tragic. Anytime I've ever bought one of those carboys (the 5 gallon glass jug) the seller has reminded me that you need to have a gallon of cold water in the jug before adding the hot wort, just to avoid what you've described. My worst brewing disaster was the batch of Russian Imperial Stout I made three years ago for a Christmas brew. I'd made it before and knew I'd need extra yeast to convert all the sugar, but I apparently added too much. The fermentation built up so much pressure that it blew the top off the carboy and sprayed wort all over the basement room it was in. There are still dark stains on the floor from the accident. However, the resulting stout was so high in alcohol content that some friends considered it a major success.