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Jigsaw
2002-May-14, 03:37 AM
But I can't find anything on their website about it--just this BBC press release. Dr. Friedman was evidently addressing the Royal Astronomical Society.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1984000/1984793.stm

Monday, 13 May, 2002, 23:01 GMT 00:01 UK
Starship dream moves closer

The first attempt to fly a craft pushed by the light of the Sun is on target for an autumn launch.

Experts at Nasa and the European Space Agency will be watching closely to see if the low-budget mission succeeds.

In a privately sponsored venture, the Planetary Society in the United States wants to send a solar sailing ship into orbit around the Earth.

The craft will begin its journey onboard a rocket fired from a submarine in Russian waters.

If all goes to plan, the solar sail spacecraft will separate from the rocket where it will unfurl and fly for a few weeks or months around the Earth pushed by the Sun.
Of course, it's just Dr. Friedman making a speech, so it might be just hot air, but still...

They might actually do it. Wouldn't that be too cool for words? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/index2.html

roidspop
2002-May-15, 12:58 AM
Oh yeah! And next, I want them to put one in the beam of a 45 bazillawatt laser and launch it to Alpha Centaurus. I've been reading too much of Robert Forward's stuff. Sorry.

Donnie B.
2002-May-15, 11:00 PM
The current status of the mission is that the original schedule has slipped due to various problems, but testing of the spacecraft has been proceeding successfully. A new launch date has not been set, but is expected to be September at the earliest.

Espritch
2002-May-19, 12:50 PM
Didn't they try this once before and have the craft fail to properly deploy?

I guess they've decided they've worked out the glitches.

Jigsaw
2002-May-20, 03:19 AM
On 2002-05-19 08:50, Espritch wrote:
Didn't they try this once before and have the craft fail to properly deploy?
Yeah.
http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/missions/planetary_solar_sai.html

The project was initiated September 15, 2000. A sub-orbital test flight of the inflatable tube sail deployment system was conducted on July 20, 2001. The spacecraft was launched from a submerged Russian submarine in the Barents Sea on a Volna, a converted submarine-launched ICBM now being marketed for commercial use. Unfortunately the spacecraft failed to separate from the third stage of the rocket, and as a result the sails and the reentry capsule failed to deploy. The capsule continued on its ballistic flight to the Kamchatka peninsula, but has not been recovered so far.

Jim
2002-May-24, 02:38 PM
Here's the latest:

On May 10, 2002, Louis Friedman, Executive Director of The Planetary Society, attended a solar sailing meeting, held by the Royal Astronomical Society in London.

The interest in our Cosmos 1 project was high, and for good reason. Cosmos 1 is an attempt to launch the first solar sail. Reports were given by a number of different groups working on solar sailing, including one by Friedman on our project, sponsored by Cosmos Studios.

Read the complete update here:
http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/Media.htm

ToSeek
2005-Feb-15, 05:30 PM
Another try imminent. (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0502/14solarsail/)


The Planetary Society's oft-delayed Cosmos 1 solar sail is finally on the verge of launching on its test mission to validate the practicality of a revolutionary propulsion method that relies on sunlight instead of chemical rocket fuels.

Launched aboard a converted Volna ballistic missile from a nuclear submarine, the solar sail will reach a circular polar orbit some 800 kilometers high within 20 minutes. The three-stage Volna will place the 220-pound spacecraft on a suborbital trajectory, and an apogee kick motor will fire to circularize the orbit.

Officials reported last week that the launch will have to be delayed from earlier targets in March, but project director Louis Friedman said there is currently nothing standing in the way of a launch some time in April.

Lunatik
2005-Mar-21, 09:56 PM
Another try imminent. (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0502/14solarsail/)


The Planetary Society's oft-delayed Cosmos 1 solar sail is finally on the verge of launching on its test mission to validate the practicality of a revolutionary propulsion method that relies on sunlight instead of chemical rocket fuels.

Launched aboard a converted Volna ballistic missile from a nuclear submarine, the solar sail will reach a circular polar orbit some 800 kilometers high within 20 minutes. The three-stage Volna will place the 220-pound spacecraft on a suborbital trajectory, and an apogee kick motor will fire to circularize the orbit.

Officials reported last week that the launch will have to be delayed from earlier targets in March, but project director Louis Friedman said there is currently nothing standing in the way of a launch some time in April.
Is there a followup article on this Solar Sail (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0502/14solarsail/) experiment? Could be important development if it works, since my hunch had always been that Crooks radiometer disproves using solar power in this way. The solar sails might achieve a nice spin though, but in the wrong direction!

ngc3314
2005-Mar-21, 11:02 PM
Another try imminent. (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0502/14solarsail/)


The Planetary Society's oft-delayed Cosmos 1 solar sail is finally on the verge of launching on its test mission to validate the practicality of a revolutionary propulsion method that relies on sunlight instead of chemical rocket fuels.

Launched aboard a converted Volna ballistic missile from a nuclear submarine, the solar sail will reach a circular polar orbit some 800 kilometers high within 20 minutes. The three-stage Volna will place the 220-pound spacecraft on a suborbital trajectory, and an apogee kick motor will fire to circularize the orbit.

Officials reported last week that the launch will have to be delayed from earlier targets in March, but project director Louis Friedman said there is currently nothing standing in the way of a launch some time in April.
Is there a followup article on this Solar Sail (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0502/14solarsail/) experiment? Could be important development if it works, since my hunch had always been that Crooks radiometer disproves using solar power in this way. The solar sails might achieve a nice spin though, but in the wrong direction!

It's been known for a long time that the vacuum in Crookes'-style radiometers is not high enough for radiation pressure to dominate. Instead, the "reverse" spin direction is a molecular-kinematics effect in a vacuum which is high enough but not too high. One explanatory link is http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/LightMill/light-mill.html. The vacuum in even low Earth orbit is a whole different kettle of fish.

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-21, 11:58 PM
And don't forget the Echo satellites - this has been tried before, if not deliberately:

http://msl.jpl.nasa.gov/QuickLooks/echoQL.html


Both spacecraft encountered significant orbital changes due to solar pressure.

And there are plenty of experiments with light pressure using lasers in a vacuum chamber. The issue is bulding a practical solar sail, not the science behind it.

Sock Munkey
2005-Mar-22, 10:02 AM
I think the key issue is psychological. It's one thing to dream up experimental crafts but when the government and the public see a working version cruising along they see it differently. It triggers their own imaginations as to what could be accomplished with it and makes it easier to take the next step.

publiusr
2005-Mar-23, 08:21 PM
They have had all kinds of problems with those cramped SLBMs, or so I hear.

http://www.orbireport.com/Log.html
http://www.orbireport.com/Portraits/Volna.jpg
http://www.laspace.ru/rus/projects.php

Better:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara100.html

ToSeek
2005-Jun-08, 06:04 PM
Cosmic yacht sails for the final frontier (http://www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/news/2137623/launch-date-set-space-bound)


The world's first solar sailing ship will be launched from a Russian nuclear submarine on 21 June.

Cosmos 1 is the brainchild of the late Carl Sagan and former Nasa engineer Louis Friedman, with the support of the Planetary Foundation.

Once the ship reaches orbit at 825 kilometres above the Earth, it will unfurl eight 15-metre panels and orientate them towards the sun.

CJSF
2005-Jun-08, 06:06 PM
Cosmic yacht sails for the final frontier (http://www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/news/2137623/launch-date-set-space-bound)


The world's first solar sailing ship will be launched from a Russian nuclear submarine on 21 June.

Cosmos 1 is the brainchild of the late Carl Sagan and former Nasa engineer Louis Friedman, with the support of the Planetary Foundation.

Once the ship reaches orbit at 825 kilometres above the Earth, it will unfurl eight 15-metre panels and orientate them towards the sun.

I thought it was The Planetary Society? Does someone need to send a correction?

CJSF

tracer
2005-Jun-08, 06:47 PM
Once the ship reaches orbit at 825 kilometres above the Earth, it will unfurl eight 15-metre panels and orientate them towards the sun.
"Orientate"?!

publiusr
2005-Jun-08, 09:01 PM
Yet more crap crammed in can sided payload shrouds.

SLBMs are not much more than big sounding rockets.

I love solar sails--when they are a kilometer on a side and are worth something---and launched by HLLV.

formulaterp
2005-Jun-10, 03:42 AM
I love solar sails--when they are a kilometer on a side and are worth something---and launched by HLLV.

Don't you think it's a good idea to first launch something small and cheap just to see if it will work?

It would have been pretty silly to try and build an A380 before the Wright Flyer ever got off the ground.

publiusr
2005-Jun-10, 10:19 PM
Different scales. You don't play with a postage stamp to see if a clipper-ship sail works. The larger the scale--the more true the test.

Yorkshireman
2005-Jun-13, 02:19 PM
Yet more crap crammed in can sided payload shrouds.

SLBMs are not much more than big sounding rockets.

I love solar sails--when they are a kilometer on a side and are worth something---and launched by HLLV.

This attitude is getting on my nerves.

Economics are not some mysterious irrelevance, particularly in space projects. When you're trying a revolutionary new system, trial the damn system with something small and limited in scope. Then if it fails, you've not poured billions down the drain.


You don't play with a postage stamp to see if a clipper-ship sail works. The larger the scale--the more true the test.

You don't build a full scale 767 as your first powered aircraft. Goddard did not attempt to build a Saturn V as his first liquid-fuel rocket, claiming that any smaller test was pointless. Your analogy does not hold.

publiusr
2005-Jun-15, 09:11 PM
The example don't jibe No Goddard didn't start with the Saturn V--but modern sails and ancient sails were both larger than toy sized sails to work properly. One big problem with cramped payload shrouds is that you can have all sorts of problems with deployment. You don't wear shoes too small for your feet for a reason. We went from the Galileo type deployable dish to a solid dish for our current probe at Saturn due to impacts with ring particles. So that was one less part to break.

There are lots of reasons to scale things up to better sizes. There is just so much you can shoehorn inside an SLBM.

CJSF
2005-Jun-15, 09:17 PM
The example don't jibe No Goddard didn't start with the Saturn V--but modern sails and ancient sails were both larger than toy sized sails to work properly. One big problem with cramped payload shrouds is that you can have all sorts of problems with deployment. You don't wear shoes too small for your feet for a reason. We went from the Galileo type deployable dish to a solid dish for our current probe at Saturn due to impacts with ring particles. So that was one less part to break.

There are lots of reasons to scale things up to better sizes. There is just so much you can shoehorn inside an SLBM.

But the only way The Planetary Society and partners could even DO this mission is with a small booster. It would never get done if they needed an HLV. It's prohibitively expensive. Besides, your example "don't jibe" either. Mankind didn't all of a sudden start building Spanish galleons or Man o' Wars as the first wind powered ships.

CJSF

publiusr
2005-Jun-15, 09:36 PM
But all useful sails have to be pretty big to catch any wind. The same is likely true here.

The Planetary Society might have spent this money in lobbying for an HLV--and that would have been quite useful. As it is now--the EELV buzzards are circling. So Griff is in for a fight--for like myself, he ias a big HLV supporter who knows that all of these smaller missions are distractions that are truly holding us back.

The Planetary Society tried this before. If this fails--will they try again--or will they lobby for better spacelift? I would prefer they do the latter.

Metricyard
2005-Jun-15, 11:27 PM
But all useful sails have to be pretty big to catch any wind. The same is likely true here.

The Planetary Society might have spent this money in lobbying for an HLV--and that would have been quite useful. As it is now--the EELV buzzards are circling. So Griff is in for a fight--for like myself, he ias a big HLV supporter who knows that all of these smaller missions are distractions that are truly holding us back.

The Planetary Society tried this before. If this fails--will they try again--or will they lobby for better spacelift? I would prefer they do the latter.

But The Planetary Society built theirs for a proof of concept. If it works in a smaller package, it'll work on a larger package. There's no justification to build a large scale one. They're testing it to see if it solar sails work, not to send a battle cruiser out to Pluto.

As far as scale goes, of course they would work. I've been building model rockets for 30 years, and I've never had to use a 10 meter parachute to recover them. And my small 12" parachute works just like there huge 30' models.

For wind sails, I've (and plenty of people here) have seen small boats with sails. Seem to work ok. And the reason for large sails on large boats should be obvious. The more mass you have, the larger the sails have to be. Simple physics.

Some small sails that work just like the big ones:

Wind Surfers (http://www.extremewindsurfing.com/)
R/C sail boats (http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/rc-sailboats.html)
Land sailig (http://www.windwizards.com/blokart.html)

As others have mentioned, why build a huge craft if you don't know if the thing is even going to move? As I mentioned above, the more mass you have to push, the larger the sail is going to be. The same physics that apply on Earth apply in space. (More or less) :lol:


Edit to fix link and spelling..

Yorkshireman
2005-Jun-16, 12:16 PM
The example don't jibe No Goddard didn't start with the Saturn V--but modern sails and ancient sails were both larger than toy sized sails to work properly. One big problem with cramped payload shrouds is that you can have all sorts of problems with deployment. You don't wear shoes too small for your feet for a reason. We went from the Galileo type deployable dish to a solid dish for our current probe at Saturn due to impacts with ring particles. So that was one less part to break.

There are lots of reasons to scale things up to better sizes. There is just so much you can shoehorn inside an SLBM.

OK, first, 8 50-foot sails is hardly a 'toy' or 'postage stamp' sized. That's just emotive language, like calling the Mars rovers 'cheats' and bomb-disposal buggies. (Oh wait, you did that as well. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=436515&highlight=rover#436515))

It may not be a Spanish Galleon, but it's the size of quite a respectable fishing boat or a big yacht. It'll give you good data on how a solar sail behaves. Good, scaleable data.

Second - to launch a 1-km square sail, or even a 50-foot square sail on a HLLV - how are you going to do it? You're going to furl it and fit it into a payload shroud aren't you. So the argument that if you had a bigger launcher, you wouldn't be cramming the sail into the payload shroud is incorrect. You can divorce these two issues - lobbying for HLLV and experimenting with solar sails. One does not preclude the other!

publiusr
2005-Jun-16, 04:29 PM
Second - to launch a 1-km square sail, or even a 50-foot square sail on a HLLV - how are you going to do it? You're going to furl it and fit it into a payload shroud aren't you. So the argument that if you had a bigger launcher, you wouldn't be cramming the sail into the payload shroud is incorrect. You can divorce these two issues - lobbying for HLLV and experimenting with solar sails.

One does not preclude the other!


I would hope not--but things have a way of happening.

ToSeek
2005-Jun-16, 04:58 PM
If you're in southern California...

Join Us for the Launch of Cosmos 1 the World's First Solar Sail Spacecraft (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17143)


On June 21, Cosmos 1 - the world's first solar sail spacecraft - is set to launch atop a converted ICBM from a submerged Russian submarine in the Barents Sea. The Planetary Society and Cosmos Studios invite you to join us in Pasadena, California on launch day for press briefings, an inside look at project operations, live updates from Mission Control in Moscow, and the opportunity to interview members of the Cosmos 1 team.