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The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-19, 05:21 AM
My review of Star Wars: Attack of the CLones is now online (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/movies/starwars_aotc.html). Enjoy.

David Hall
2002-May-19, 10:03 AM
And so it begins.

I'm talking about the suffering I have to endure trying to avoid reading spoiler-filled reviews like this until the movie finally comes out in my neck of the woods--which won't be until July. And even then I probably won't be able to go to the theater until several weeks after it comes out.

I'm sure your review is top-notch, and the discussion will likewise be interesting, but until then, this thread is off-limits to me. Goodbye. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Roy Batty
2002-May-19, 03:31 PM
On 2002-05-19 01:21, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
My review of Star Wars: Attack of the CLones is now online (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/movies/starwars_aotc.html). Enjoy.


Liked the review. You might also like to link to this in it:
The Planetary Society's - Solar Sail Project (http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/)

SpacedOut
2002-May-19, 04:34 PM
I’m actually quite proud of my self – after reading TBA’s review I only misses one BAD (blast marks) and I went into the movie purposely not looking for Bad Astronomy –I just wanted to enjoy myself.

One thing I did notice was the correct use of parsec – actually the use was so in your face that I wondered if it wasn’t put in the movie to answer critics like TBA!

The other thing that was really cool about the movie was how much of what we see visually in Episodes IV,V, & VI is fore shadowed in this movie such as starship shapes, trooper armor, etc.

[fixed bbcode]


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpacedOut on 2002-05-19 12:35 ]</font>

diacad
2002-May-19, 08:07 PM
I enjoyed discovering today TBA and reading Plait's SW review. The main spoiler for me regarding such space operas is the idea of intersteller manned travel, which seems more preposterous (not less, as I had hoped when a child after seeing "Rocketship X-M") with each passing year. I firmly believe that popular culture here does a disservice to real science (and policy), when unmanned space exploration is evidently practical, safe, and cost-effective. The second spoiler, peculiar to SW, but also other "science" fiction, is the notion of telepathy, PK, and other miscastings of the mind's relationship to the brain and to other external reality (the "Force" in SW).

These spoilers, to my thinking, dwarf in significance most of the otherwise quite valid points made in TBA's review.

Silas
2002-May-19, 09:05 PM
On 2002-05-19 16:07, diacad wrote:
I enjoyed discovering today TBA and reading Plait's SW review. The main spoiler for me regarding such space operas is the idea of intersteller manned travel, which seems more preposterous (not less, as I had hoped when a child after seeing "Rocketship X-M") with each passing year. I firmly believe that popular culture here does a disservice to real science (and policy), when unmanned space exploration is evidently practical, safe, and cost-effective. The second spoiler, peculiar to SW, but also other "science" fiction, is the notion of telepathy, PK, and other miscastings of the mind's relationship to the brain and to other external reality (the "Force" in SW).

These spoilers, to my thinking, dwarf in significance most of the otherwise quite valid points made in TBA's review.



The first point is, to my mind, a source of some sorrow... I, too, grew up with Heinlein and Asimov and Clarke and Bradbury, and the dream of manned exploration of the cosmos. Now, the best I can hope for is to live to see the *launch* of a good unmanned AI probe, with the sure knowledge that I'll never learn what it will find when it arrives at even one of the nearest stars.

I agree with your second point also. "Psionics" and "The Force" and all those cheesey feel-good magic gimmicks are disappointing. To begin with, they're unscientific; no one has even begun to describe a model by which the remarkably low wattage of the human brain and body could cause large actions at a distance. (Basal metabolism for an average person is about 50W. Peak activity is about 100W.)

But, worse, it's an affront to reason. This "magic thinking" sends the message that we don't need to study, to learn the basics, to know our stuff. All we have to do is "wish real hard" and everything will go our way. It would be funny...if it weren't so tragic. It leads a lot of good minds away from science and into pseudo-science and fantasy.

(Actually, I like fantasy... So... "Never mind...")

Silas

Chuck
2002-May-19, 09:29 PM
I thought that "The Force" was all around us, not generated by the brain, and that the brain just focuses it. We might have something like it some day. Computer implants in our brains could radio our thoughts to larger computers which have more power at their disposal.

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-19, 11:02 PM
At one point, Amidala says another planet is "less than a parsec away" Although there is nothing inerhently bad about this, the closest known star to Earth is more than a parsec away. Just thought that was interesting.

Rob

Russ
2002-May-20, 12:06 AM
On 2002-05-19 19:02, Hale_Bopp wrote:
At one point, Amidala says another planet is "less than a parsec away" Although there is nothing inerhently bad about this, the closest known star to Earth is more than a parsec away. Just thought that was interesting.

Rob


IMHO, I don't think this really counts as BA. We live in a pretty sparsely populated section of the galaxy. If we were in a spiral arm or near the core of our galaxy our nearest neighbor star could be less than a light year away. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-20, 03:16 AM
Yes, I wasn't saying that was BA...just noting that they were closer than stars around us. In clusters, even open clusters, the average distance between stars could be less.

Another thing that at least is consistent with the novels is the height of the buildings on Coruscant. I can't remember the number, but they are on the order of several kilometers tall, so they actually could free fall for quite a while.

Rob

Firefox
2002-May-20, 03:58 AM
My only minor quibble with the review was about the solar sailer. Evidently, it has a hyperdrive, and sublight engines, apart from the solar sail. How else did the thing get off the ground before deploying the sail in orbit?


-Adam

Chip
2002-May-20, 04:03 AM
On 2002-05-19 16:07, diacad wrote:
"...I firmly believe that popular culture here does a disservice to real science (and policy), when unmanned space exploration is evidently practical, safe, and cost-effective..."

Hi there,
I think also that robotic probes offer ever growing exploration potentials. As far as the idea of a classic "big spaceship" with a human crew goes, I think we could in fact actually have a kind of "Starship Enterprise" in this century, though we would have to narrow our focus a bit. No "warpdrive", but instead, a large scientific vessel who's "five year mission" is to seek out new discoveries within the vastness of our solar system. Who among us wouldn't want to be on that crew? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Ben Benoy
2002-May-20, 05:50 AM
On 2002-05-20 00:03, Chip wrote:

a large scientific vessel who's "five year mission" is to seek out new discoveries within the vastness of our solar system. Who among us wouldn't want to be on that crew? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Ooh.. ooh! Not me! If there's one thing I've learned from the movies, it's never to get into a spaceship that's intended to stay inside the solar system. Bad stuff always starts going down, and usually soon. Must I remind you of Mission to Mars, or Red Planet, or Apollo 13?

And look what happened to those poor, hapless miners in Armageddon. First they stop to refuel, an eminently sensible idea, and the space station blows up! Then they drop off on their "final destination" (sounds terminal to me!) and there's all these geysers of who knows how poisonous gasses and stuff. Yick! It doesn't look safe at all.

Or, even worse, 2001: A Space Odyssey. That was simply the scariest movie I've ever seen. It was so intense, like when Dr. Haywood is talking on the video phone to his daughter, and she's possessed by demons, and he has to throw holy water on her with the old priest, and then she walks down the stairs backwards like the creepiest spider since... well since ever. Shiver me timbers I almost peed my pants. And the projectile vomiting. Blech.

And then Haywood gets on the spaceship to the moon, and not only is the engine apparently dead, either that or the music just drowned out the sound effects, but the gravity somehow gets turned off too! Who wants to take a trip on a spaceship so unreliable they don't even have gravity? Lest I spoil the end for anyone, let me just say in parting that if going into space makes me all old and wrinkley, it's totally not worth it, thank you very much. But the lightshow would be good. You know what would be cool? If like, bands had cool lightshows while they played music. Man, that would totally rock.

Ben Benoy

[coding. grr...]


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ben Benoy on 2002-05-20 01:51 ]</font>

Aodoi
2002-May-20, 06:42 PM
Big ole' Spoilers in this post:





Random nitpick that's only sorta astronomy related... Mace Windu (Sam Jackson) takes the Jedi to go bail out Obi Wan's butt. Yoda heads off to the disappearing/reappearing planet to play with the clones. Mace and friends show up and start a lengthy process of being shot at. This takes about 10 minutes of screen time, and we can probably assume they had a bit of time to land, then get to the arena, so I'll generously give them a couple hours on planet before Yoda shows up to bail them out.

Now, Yoda left at approximately the same time as Mace, maybe earlier if Mace had to round up the Jedi. So, he managed to fly from Coruscant to the planet repeatedly mentioned as being outside of Republic space, get the clones, and head back to wasp world (forgot the "real" name) to arrive in the nick of time.

So... just how far away is the clone planet from waspworld? Yoda would have had 2hrs + however long it took to round up the Jedi to go farther out, get the clones, then get to waspworld to arrive in the nick of time (rather than the nick of time that Mace showed up in). Somehow, the timing seems distinctly off to me.

And the planet with the rings, did that look like a gas giant to anyone else? Or just me? I'll ignore the whole "how would a planet with no plantlife have a breathable atmosphere."

Just curious, I didn't notice the blast mark thing on Obi Wan's ship at the time, could simply acceleration account for it? Even without atmosphere he was accelerating and moving around a lot, maybe that could account for it? Not that I'm gonna give Lucas the benefit of the doubt at this point /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

The Solar Sail thing... I saw it, said "that's kinda cool... makes no sense whatsoever, but kinda cool." Which is most likely exactly what Lucas thought. I rationalized it by saying maybe it wasn't a solar sail but instead some kind of cloking/stealth device to keep the other ships from seeing him... but that's not a real good explanation either, given the angle at which it is deployed.

Rather sad that I thought Dooku gave the best performance in the whole movie... and his total screen time was maybe 5 minutes.

Totally non-astronomy, but how stupid does Fett have to be to use a weapon that can be traced back to one particular world? I certainly hope that he was told by the psychic Darth Sidious to do so, cause otherwise he's an idiot. I mean, sheesh, you've got a blaster, why use a stupid dart?

Just to sum up, there's was something in pretty much every scene in this movie to annoy me. I sorta wish I'd managed to go in thinking it would be awful since that usually helps me get over the mediocrity of most movies, but I went in thinking it would be decent. Oops. Did rather like Jar Jar helping out in the destruction of the republic. Finally a stupid character whose stupidity is actually taken advantage of!

er... sorry for the non-astronomy bits. Felt like venting a bit.

Simon
2002-May-20, 10:44 PM
*sigh...* I haven't visited this board in too long... I can tell, because when I saw the movie, my only thought about the solar-sail was "My god, that must have taken so much computer power to render".

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Mr. X
2002-May-21, 12:58 AM
Think about all the cities... all the fogging, lighting, polygons volumetric thingamajigs and whatnot! It's mind boggling that this can be the work of humans, but there it is!

I'm pretty sure that boba fett is going to be somehow messed up after that whole battle debacle. I don't think that in the other movies he has reused his father's armor, bu it seems like a similar "mandalorian" armor at least, and it could be the same, only very used up. And I can't believe we saw the mystery man's face (the same as his father's... DUH!). But who knows what sorts of exciting and innovative wounds may ravage his face! To me Boba takes off his helmet a lot less than his father, but it just might be me...

And the movie was enjoyable! It IS good aside from the terrible love scenes which SUCKED! (can I say suck in here?) And what does Scumbag X aka Tony Waxman say about movie critics in Hollywood ending? I don't remember but it feels about right! They must have some small hole in the back of their heads they use to insert a needle in and wiggle it through their brains. Only THEN can they become successful movie critics.

Bah, I enjoy "The Force" and "Telepathy" in movies, hell I even enjoy the MANA that allows fantasy people to cast spells and it hasn't driven me to become an astrologer or a moon hoax believer or anything. Now lift damn pencil, lift! And it's not because I say "You do not need to see my identification" to every police officer I see that I am messed up because of my movie preferences! Blah!

Anyone have any Episode 3 theorizing? Methinks Padme will have the babies, give one on Alderaan, the other to Owen and Beru Lars, is going to be captured and killed by the infamous Dooku, at which point Anakin will find him and fight him like Luke did Vader, only now the Emperor's tactic will be successful and off comes Count Dooku's head.

I like my theory but there's the problem that this would only account for one arm lost, not as many wounds as we know Vader to have. The only book I know that seems to have some sort of high Lucas-ian value for some reason is Shadows of the Empire (it got made into a game) (Episode 4.5, lol /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif), seems to say that Vader has no lower body to speak of. I wonder how he could continue to fight cut in half, but maybe he'll pull it off, although that would seem surprising since he DID pass out from a lost arm, so he might not have some suprisingly high pain tolerance (since there's only that, laser wounds aren't supposed to bleed).

Anyone thinks Stormtroopers are legions of modified Jango Fetts? How come they are so ineffective in episode 4 since they kick so much butt in episode 2?

Jango Fett seemed surprisingly effective against Obi-Wan, only to seem ridiculously underpowered versus Mace Windu, what's up with that? He should have had his missile, or was it destroyed with the jetpack? How about the rope? The blades on his wrists? Why doesn't he move more that just standing?

And Jango nailed a Jedi with his blaster. Lol, that was hilarious /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif.

We see the Death Star plans! Whoo! Wave!

And come on, Darth Sidious is Palpatine? Oh please! He is SO powerful that Jedis didn't sense him? Isn't that sort of a contradiction?

And everyone applauded and cheered in the theater when Yoda pulled out his saber. Gotta hand it to him, the little guy is strong! Who said size didn't matter? It does! Smaller IS better! A great one was that Dooku still had a lot to learn! I loved that one. Yoda sure is a Jedi Master!

My random ramblings. lol.

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-21, 02:48 AM
Okay...potential spoilers here, so stop reading if you don't want to know...and I mean about Episode III /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


In one of the books, they mention that Darth Vader fell into a lava pool while dueling with Obi Wan, who was trying to save him from the dark side. I don't remember which book. If it's not one of the "official" books, they may rewrite this part of the story.

I enjoyed the movie, but could have done with fewer Padme and Annakin love scenes (especially the flowery meadow...ahhhg!)

The Sith Lords have some funky powers...read the Jedi Academy trilogy for more info on them. Dooku must die somehow for Annakin to become the apprentice, probably killed by Annakin.

And Yoda kicks!

Rob

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-21, 03:28 AM
On 2002-05-20 20:58, Mr. X wrote:
Methinks Padme will have the babies, give one on Alderaan, the other to Owen and Beru Lars, is going to be captured and killed by the infamous Dooku

I was thinking about this. Anakin will need to be very angry to fall to the dark side, so I suspect he will actually see Dooku kill Padme (and we know she has to die). He may even be partially responsible, giving him overwhelming guilt as well.

This was never established in the movies, but perhaps Luke and Leia are twins? Anakin wouldn't be at the birth, then, and she doesn't tell him she's having two babies. Vader knew Luke was his son, but was unaware of Leia.

Hmmm. I'm straying off-topic. Oh well, it's my board. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Mr. X
2002-May-21, 04:11 AM
Yes Hale_Bopp, that's what I heard too... the injuries were inflicted by burning. No lower body, minus one arm, seems about right.

BA, I think it mightbe metioned somewhere that they are twins... wait a second... that OFFICIAL star wars website gives away a huge part of the whole damn plot! Look:


It was common knowledge throughout the court that Leia was adopted into the Royal Family. What wasn't common knowledge was that Leia was born to Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi pupil who succumbed to the dark side and became Darth Vader. She was one of a set of twins, born in secrecy and protected from Vader and the Emperor. The Jedi hero and general, Obi-Wan Kenobi, secretly transported Leia and her mother to the planet Alderaan, where she was to be raised by Kenobi's friend Bail Organa. The boy, Luke, was taken to the distant world of Tatooine. Leia has few memories of her true mother, Padmé Amidala. All that Leia can recall is that she was beautiful, but sad.

That sucks! Now we know they were separated for protection, they were twins (no loitering around for a second baby)

Ooops, again more plot revealed by the official website:


Sustaining grievous injuries at the hands of his former master, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Vader required cybernetic enhancements and replacements to sustain him. His pure innocent self seemingly lost forever, Darth Vader cast a dark pall over the galaxy, as he was one of the foremost agents responsible for the elimination of the Jedi order.

Again, what happens to Luke and Leia:

Obi-Wan was instrumental in hiding Anakin's offspring, so that neither the Dark Lord, nor his master, the Emperor Palpatine, knew of their whereabouts. He took the young boy, Luke, to live with Owen and Beru Lars, moisture farmers on Tatooine.The young girl, Leia, was taken to Viceroy Bail Organa of Alderaan, whom Obi-Wan had served during the Clone Wars.

Sorry for destroying the third movie. Padme will die by Dooku's hand, Anakin will avenge Padme, "strike him down and you will have completed your journey to the dark side", Dooku dies, Obi-Wan fights him, Anakin falls into the fire depths of someplace, Anakin becomes Vader, mangled and angry, and starts extermination of jedis.

Pretty much sums up episode 3 I guess. Well sorry for wasting it for everyone. lol /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

odysseus0101
2002-May-21, 04:25 AM
It has been known since Return of the Jedi that Luke and Leia are twins.

On Degoba-
Luke: "Yoda spoke of another."
Kenobi: "The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

On the Death Star-
Vader reads it in Luke's mind..."So, you have a twin sister. ... If you won't turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will!"

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-21, 04:54 AM
On 2002-05-21 00:25, odysseus0101 wrote:

On Degoba-
Luke: "Yoda spoke of another."
Kenobi: "The other he spoke of is your twin sister."


D'oh! I checked a copy of the script online. You're right.

... or maybe she's a clone. Females are easier to clone. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-05-21 00:55 ]</font>

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-21, 01:56 PM
In "Shadows of the Empire", a novel which fills the gap between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader removes his helmet, seeing how long he can go without his artificial life support. It is implied that his goal is to be able to remove his mask. That explains why we see the back of his head in the Empire Strikes Back (probably just a character motivation for a curious scene from the second movie).

Rob

amstrad
2002-May-21, 02:12 PM
I would like to speculate on the title of the third film. Here are some that I have come up with:

<U>Fall of the Jedi</U> - I like this one because it has a double meaning. 1) The Jedi Academy must be destroyed in order for the Sith/Empire to thrive in the period leading up to Episode 4. This fits with the title of Episode 6, <U>Return of the Jedi</U> when the Jedi's reclaim their lost power after the two Sith lords die. 2) This also works well with the idea that Anakin falls to the dark side and then returns in ROTJ to help Luke destroy the Sith Master.

<U>Rise of the Empire</U> - fairly straight forward. This will be the story of the loss of power of the imperial senate as the emperor gains power. E3 may very well end with a large scaffold being built - large enough for the most powerful weapon in the imperial arsenal.

<U>The Clone Wars</U> - rest assured, they are not over. We will see Anakin suduced (after he kills Dooku) by the now revealed Sidious/Palpatine. Together they orchestrate the destruction of the remianing Jedi via the Clones/Stormtroopers. Remember when Luke asks how his father died in Episode 4, Ben answers, "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."

Firefox
2002-May-21, 02:24 PM
That, or if Lucas goes with the trend he's been following, "Revenge of the Sith" or "The Sith's Revenge" are fair bets, too.


-Fox

CJSF
2002-May-21, 02:48 PM
Or, even worse, 2001: A Space Odyssey. That was simply the scariest movie I've ever seen. It was so intense, like when Dr. Haywood is talking on the video phone to his daughter, and she's possessed by demons, and he has to throw holy water on her with the old priest, and then she walks down the stairs backwards like the creepiest spider since... well since ever. Shiver me timbers I almost peed my pants. And the projectile vomiting. Blech.


Um, Ben.. I think you are confusing two different movies there! (I guess you COULD be joking, though.)

CJSF

Matherly
2002-May-21, 06:25 PM
My vote for Ep 3 is "Revenge of the Sith". Reason is, the original title for Episode 6 was "Revenge of the Jedi" until Goerge realized that wasn't a good title (To quote Buzz Lightyear "Revenge isn't something we encourage on my planet"). However, revenge is right up the Sith's alley, not to mention one of Darth Maul's 2 lines "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge."

Aodoi
2002-May-21, 06:26 PM
Well, since we're off topic anyway... anybody else think it's an awfully bad idea to give lightsabers to 6 year olds? And you thought a 6 year old with crayons could cause a mess! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Firefox
2002-May-21, 06:28 PM
According to the AotC Visual Dictionary, the kids' lightsabers are tuned down, so they don't hurt one another. How you can "tune down" a lightsaber is beyond me.


-Adam

Mr. X
2002-May-21, 06:39 PM
You think Boba Fett could have anything to do with successfully bringing Padme to Count Dooku, and maybe even the extemination of the jedis, because I think he might at least hold a grudge against Mace Windu. That would be very cool, to see Windu killed by Boba Fett. I don't know how much in the future Episode 3 will take place, maybe his growth could be accelerated so he may fit in his father's armor.

Or is it his father's armor? Killing a Mandalorian to get his armor seems to be a family trademark for the Fetts. Maybe some sort of "rite of passage". But knowing there are no Madalorians left...

It is my belief that Jango is not a Mandalorian himself, but rather a man who killed a mandalorian to get the battle armor as I said, even if there are no mandalorians left...

The idea of having a clone of himself as a son is also very cool I think. I mean, this should be every man's dream! There is no annoying romance and running around in fields for Jango and Boba, all business all the time.

Jango and Boba could really become new "heroes" in the new trilogy the way that Vader was in the old, and as no ones likes Vader anymore knowing that he is Anakin and that Anakin is a wuss... his idea of a good time is running around in fields of strawberries with Padme, having pic-nics in long grass by waterfalls, a little on the lame side, methinks. Plus he gets beaten by his son, son of the most powerful jedi ever, diluted with the blood of someone else and still gets beaten... plus he also gets beaten by Obi-Wan, hardly even a jedi knight seeing how he fights in episode 3.

On the other hand, Jango didn't last very long either, but he still popped a jedi with a blaster! At least he doesn't run around fields holding hands...

On an unrelated topic, what happened to force powers in battle, they hardly push, pull, jump and never throw their sabres? And what truly sucks is that the jedi mind trick seems to work on people with brain damage, drug addicts and other misfits.

You think he only said that about the mind trick to score with Padme? No one would ever pull a mind trick like that given that power, right *cough*.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2002-05-21 14:44 ]</font>

Aodoi
2002-May-21, 07:04 PM
Heh, thanks Firefox... at least someone thought about that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Though, admittedly, the scene was filmed so goofily that I wonder why it was included at all. I think Lucas's direction to the kids was "stand still and twitch the lightsabers around, don't worry if it looks goofy, I'll just fix it digitally."

And I'm sorry, but how utterly moronic is Obi-Wan not to figure out the planet had been erased? Yoda I can justify as realizing the right answer and asking the kids to show Obi-Wan that he's a moron, but what's up with Mr. Jedi Master who can't grasp the utterly obvious? It's like if Watson is a moron who misses the obvious, Sherlocke doesn't look too bright when he's explaining simple things to him. A kid stating the blindingly apparent truth is hardly impressive. I think the scene was supposed to convey that Obi-Wan couldn't imagine someone erasing something from the computer (they said only a Jedi could), but the "hints" that the planet was really there were hardly subtle. Maybe more "dark side blinding." Sidious ex machina

Somehow the Jedi in this film came across as so incompetent to me that wiping them out would hardly be difficult. Hell, if Sidious hadn't created the clone army for Yoda to come up with he coulda wiped out most of the Jedi right there (unless large numbers of Jedi were elsewhere, which is possible but seems unlikely). Anakin wanting to be the most powerful Jedi hardly strikes me as ambitious, at this point. Yoda was the only one who could stand up to Dooku for more than about 30 seconds, the Jedi were misplacing entire star systems without noticing and (assuming Palpatine=Sidious) the man who's apparently responsible for everything that happens all the time is sitting right under their noses. Hardly an impressive group (though it's obviously necessary for them to be wiped out, so I guess it makes sense that they're rather inept).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aodoi on 2002-05-21 15:15 ]</font>

SpacedOut
2002-May-21, 07:40 PM
On 2002-05-21 15:04, Aodoi wrote:

Somehow the Jedi in this film came across as so incompetent to me that wiping them out would hardly be difficult.



The Jedi’s abilities are supposedly being diminished by Palpatine – in one scene Windu and Yoda are actually discussing if they should reveal that fact to the senate.

There are some continuity errors in the movie – mostly within its self, while I agree the scenes between Anakin and Padme are painful to watch, especially the “picnic” – Lucas had to put something like them in the movie in order to maintain continuity with “Return” so Luke can “see the good in him” and turn him away from the Dark Side.

As for continuity between the books and movies – I don’t think Lucas really cares if he doesn’t match with the books – one example is that Dooku pulls the Death Star schematics to take to Palpatine. This completely negates one of the main story lines in the Jedi Academy series. I think he is more interested in making all the movies fit together.

One unanswered question – why doesn’t Obi-Wan recognize 3-PO and R2-D2 in Episode IV. I’ve wanted the answer to that since I saw Episode I.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpacedOut on 2002-05-21 15:41 ]</font>

amstrad
2002-May-21, 08:14 PM
On 2002-05-21 15:40, SpacedOut wrote:
One unanswered question – why doesn’t Obi-Wan recognize 3-PO and R2-D2 in Episode IV. I’ve wanted the answer to that since I saw Episode I.


I think Ben does recognize the two droids. He says, "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid." But he says it ambiguously just like he tells Luke that his father is dead. Ben is trying to protect Luke from the truth. If he says that he remebers the droids, he would have to explain how, about how they were involved with Anakin, and he doesn't want to dump all that on Luke just then.

Chip
2002-May-21, 08:17 PM
On 2002-05-21 15:40, SpacedOut wrote:
"...One unanswered question – why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize 3-PO and R2-D2 in Episode IV. I’ve wanted the answer to that since I saw Episode I."


Obi-Wan doesn't always let on what he's thinking.

Perhaps Obi-Wan's ability to mask neural nets (be they biological or artificial,) was put to use with C3PO. (Who would have said "hello" and babbled on about their predicament.)

R2-D2 was programmed to deliver a message seemingly by accident to Luke, and later (perhaps by design) to Obi-Wan, with Luke looking on.

Don't mind me, I'm just guessing. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Mr. X
2002-May-21, 09:25 PM
Obi-Wan is not all that close to the droids, I don't know if he ever speaks with them, yet he seems relatively indifferent to their absence or presence.

If he knows them it's that he doesn't want to dump all that crap on Luke at the same time.

Maybe he doesn't remember if they are the same droids, I don't recall him getting the designations of Luke's droids before hearing Leia's message.

My guess is he doesn't care at all about droids. He seems to have a pretty lowly opinion of them. I guess it would be the equivalent for us of remembering who we rode with on the bus thirty something years ago. For Obi-wan it's probably worse than that, it would be like remembering a talking watch or something.

Besides, has anyone thought that there may actually be MORE than ONE R2 unit in the universe? More than ONE protocol droid? We see both of those, one in X-Wings in Episode IV (astromech droid, R2) and a protocol droid very similar in appearance and even in voice to C3PO on Bespin in Episode V (ECHUTA! it says to C3PO. Apparently it's a very nasty expression).

What surprises me is why doesn't C3PO recognize Obi-Wan? Because the name Ben Kenobi fools him? Because Kenobi has changed too much?

C3PO in A New Hope is supposedly 110 years old and has never been memory wiped... as far as he knows /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

Briefly: Obi-Wan thinks droids are crap, pointless objects and there are lots of droids who look the same.

C3PO is an idiot. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Geo3gh
2002-May-22, 12:17 AM
C3PO in A New Hope is supposedly 110 years old and has never been memory wiped... as far as he knows /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif.


Well that's certainly changed due to Episode I. Anakin built C-3PO in PM. So by AotC, 3PO's 10 years old. A New Hope takes place 16-20 years after Ep. III. (Who knows how much time passes between II and III? Since Hayden is playing Anakin again, I'd say not more than 10 years.)

So C3PO is probably closer to 40 than 110. Since Lucas is changing that, it's easy to posit a memory wipe in there somewhere.

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 02:18 AM
Alls I can tells ya is that by official data he was 'sposed to be 110 years old in episode 4.

That may change, but I'm guessing Threepio's "brains" might have existed long before Anakin might have assembled him. Threepio's annoying self may have been himself for longer than that . I'm guessing that maybe he hasn't built him entirely, but he was pieced together from parts that could have memories from as far back as 110 years before.

odysseus0101
2002-May-22, 04:19 AM
On an unrelated topic, what happened to force powers in battle, they hardly push, pull, jump and never throw their sabres?


I was wondering about this, as well. It seems to me that all those Jedi could do a coordinated 'push' and send half that droid army flying backward into the other half.

But then we would never have gotten to see General Yoda S. Patton, Jr.

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 05:24 AM
Glad to see I may not be alone having seen that jedis don't seem to use their powers in combat.

A nice force push could have sent Jango Fett's missile right back in his face.

Oh well. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Johnno
2002-May-22, 05:47 AM
A few things I thought about when viewing the movie.

At the very beginning a large space ship is going in for landing. A big shiny ship. That just came from outer space. Can anyone say re-entry? Oh well, I guess they had it polished by R2 units on the way, eh?

And when it goes in for landing, one of the ground crew are standing on the landing pad. No forces in action (or just THE force?), the ground crew can stand there, when a large space craft makes a vertical landing.

And talking about silly space ships, what up with the landing gear? sure those thin spider legs might look cool, but how practical are they? land anywhere than on a super dense landing platform and you'd probly sink.

Instant communications between planets that are light years away, that's always hilarious in my opinion.

Oh well, have to run to school.

In my opinion, you couldve cut first half of the movie probably, and gone straight to the fighting /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Chip
2002-May-22, 06:31 AM
Hi Johnno,
I'd like to answer your points but must admit that I am making excuses in these answers, and it's all in fun. Nothing from me here to take seriously. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif Chip

Johnno wrote:
At the very beginning a large space ship is going in for landing. A big shiny ship. That just came from outer space. Can anyone say re-entry? Oh well, I guess they had it polished by R2 units on the way, eh?

Chip:
It's a beauty isn't it? Obviously a special luxury ship. Perhaps the shiny material is a very expensive type of heat shield.

Johnno:
And when it goes in for landing, one of the ground crew are standing on the landing pad. No forces in action (or just THE force?), the ground crew can stand there, when a large space craft makes a vertical landing.

Chip:
Well maybe the technology is so sound that its about as dangerous as someone standing off to the side while a helicopter lands at one of those 20th Century "heliports" on Earth, or even someone standing next to a driveway while a car is parked.

Johnno:
And talking about silly space ships, what up with the landing gear? sure those thin spider legs might look cool, but how practical are they? land anywhere than on a super dense landing platform and you'd probably sink.

Chip:
Yeah. Cool landing gear. Well again, isn't this ship like a space going Maserati? You wouldn't drive a low slung luxury sports car or a Rolls Royce over terrain that a Jeep is designed to take. It's a special fancy ship designed for specific landing locations.

Johnno:
Instant communications between planets that are light years away, that's always hilarious in my opinion.

Chip:
Yes, that's a tough one to make excuses for. Some simply say "subspace" as if the communication goes through some other dimension where time is compressed, but that's really like saying "abracadabra" isn't it?

I remember on older Star Trek episodes, they's ask: "How long before they get our message through subspace at this distance?" At least they built some kind of time delay into it.
My fictional excuse for Star Wars is a tachiyon or negative energy beam that exists in a faster-than-light zone. The communication beam is somehow transformed by the sending and receiving hardware into a coherent real time message. (Abracadabra!) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Johnno
2002-May-22, 10:10 AM
Chip:
It's a beauty isn't it? Obviously a special luxury ship. Perhaps the shiny material is a very expensive type of heat shield.

Johnno:
Beauty? not really, big and clumsy in my opinion, when it was going in for landing I thought 'WW2 bomber', even though ww2 bombers are more beautiful and graceful /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
I mean B-17 *droool*
But sure, you got me on the heat shield explanation. I guess Im too used to Apollo Command modules /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Chip:
Well maybe the technology is so sound that its about as dangerous as someone standing off to the side while a helicopter lands at one of those 20th Century "heliports" on Earth, or even someone standing next to a driveway while a car is parked.

Johnno:
Yeah, but in reality it does take force, but I reckon it could be some antigravity thing propulsion. Just thought it looked silly with people standing there with a huge ship coming in for landing.

Chip:
Yeah. Cool landing gear. Well again, isn't this ship like a space going Maserati?

Johnno:
Yeah I reckon you're right. Wouldnt want to go anywhere uncivilised with it, now would we?

Chip:
You wouldn't drive a low slung luxury sports car or a Rolls Royce over terrain that a Jeep is designed to take. It's a special fancy ship designed for specific landing locations.

Johnno:
True, guess Im too rough, if I got to design a ship it'd go anywhere, land anywhere.. Even so, what about emergency landing? And wasent it pretty much the same type ship they took on that field trip later in the movie? Dont remember what kinda landing gear it had tho.

I guess Im too used to reality and space flight of today to be able to fully imagine space travel in the far far future, in a fantasy world /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif Maybe they dont even do re-entry, they just push the enter atmosphere button and teleport... grin

So I reckon you cant really translate the movie into science terms of today. I guess that's why my list of 'errors' was much longer than Phil's, he thought about it, I didnt...

oh well, all fun and sports aint it? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

nebularain
2002-May-22, 12:46 PM
Hi! I'm new to the board. Thought I'd add a few comments on the movie /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif .

I liked the space ship entry to the planet at the beginning of the movie. It approached from "below" the planet instead of the traditional from "above" angle. I thought that was a neat twist.

I too wondered about the C3PO problem. In Episode IV, he reacts like he had never seen or heard of Tatooine (I think I killed the spelling of that planet's name). How could he not know about the planet he originally came from?

That was a good question asked earlier - how could the Jedi not feel the power of Palpatine (did I get his name right?). I noticed at one point when he finished someone's question to him, and Yoda looked like he was suspicious about that. But you would think Yoda could feel the power of the Force in him, wouldn't you?

I've heard that there's supposed to be a significance to Boba Fett's armor. I wonder if the third movie will explain that, or if that is information will be left alone for the book-readers.

Does anyone think that the Mellenium Falcon will have a cameo in the next movie - after all, it is supposed to be an old ship by the time Han Solo owns it /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif . OK, maybe that would be a little cheezy. But then again, it couldn't be worse than 3PO's lines in this one!

Firefox
2002-May-22, 01:59 PM
At the very beginning a large space ship is going in for landing. A big shiny ship. That just came from outer space. Can anyone say re-entry? Oh well, I guess they had it polished by R2 units on the way, eh?

They used deflector shields. The N-1s we know are equipped with them, as was the original Royal Starship in TPM.


And when it goes in for landing, one of the ground crew are standing on the landing pad. No forces in action (or just THE force?), the ground crew can stand there, when a large space craft makes a vertical landing.

I think you're referring to how a person could stand when a large spacecraft is landing like that? They use what's called a "repulsorlift," which I'm guessing involves manipulating gravity to land. Ships use this whenever they're near a large gravitational body, like a planet or star.


And talking about silly space ships, what up with the landing gear? sure those thin spider legs might look cool, but how practical are they? land anywhere than on a super dense landing platform and you'd probly sink.

I'd agree with Chip on the description. Evidently, from some of the expanded references, Naboo is undergoing some sort of renaissance, and the ship designs reflect it. I would've expected more rugged landing gear, but I guess it works. They have repulsorlifts to fall back on, after all.


Instant communications between planets that are light years away, that's always hilarious in my opinion.

That's one that's always bugged me. For one thing, I suppose you could say "dramatic license." The system of communication they use is called Holonet (or will be called that?) Not sure about the mechanisms that make it work, though.


Does anyone think that the Mellenium Falcon will have a cameo in the next movie - after all, it is supposed to be an old ship by the time Han Solo owns it .

I saw what looked like a couple of ships that resembled the Millennium Falcon on the landing pad on Naboo where that transport lands. Nice cameo.

Okay, so maybe I read too many Star Wars technical manuals. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Adam

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firefox on 2002-05-22 10:01 ]</font>

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 02:09 PM
Actually, the cleanliness didn't bother me all that much, neither did the landing...

The only thing I could think of was...

NICE INCONSPICUOUS GIGANTIC LUXURY LINER!

Shiny too...

Though nobody was supposed to know seleft Coruscant? Talk about getting attention...

Aodoi
2002-May-22, 02:57 PM
You know, I've pretty much gotten over the whole "engine noise in space" thing. Ok, dramatic license, more interesting, whatever. But why in the crazed imagining of Lucas did the bloody ship have to sould like a '54 Chevy with a bad timing belt? It was like 30 seconds into the movie and I was getting pissed off at the sound track... I can accept the pod racers sounding distinctly like jet engines, why the hell did the big shiny "I'm a target come shoot me" ship sound the same way? I was thinking about the lame pod race immediately on hearing that sound, and that's a decidedly bad thing.

And a bunch of the other ships later on used the same effect. Millions upon millions for state of the art CGI and they can't foley in a non-annoying starship noise? Sheesh.

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

odysseus0101
2002-May-22, 08:10 PM
On 2002-05-22 10:09, Mr. X wrote:
Actually, the cleanliness didn't bother me all that much, neither did the landing...

The only thing I could think of was...

NICE INCONSPICUOUS GIGANTIC LUXURY LINER!

Shiny too...

Though nobody was supposed to know seleft Coruscant? Talk about getting attention...


Queen Amidala left Coruscant on a ship full of "refugees" (refugees from what, I have no idea), not a shiny luxury liner. She arrived on Coruscant on a giant luxury liner, or rather her double did. Amidala herself was piloting one of the escort fighters.

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 09:36 PM
On 2002-05-22 16:10, odysseus0101 wrote:


On 2002-05-22 10:09, Mr. X wrote:
Actually, the cleanliness didn't bother me all that much, neither did the landing...

The only thing I could think of was...

NICE INCONSPICUOUS GIGANTIC LUXURY LINER!

Shiny too...

Though nobody was supposed to know seleft Coruscant? Talk about getting attention...


Queen Amidala left Coruscant on a ship full of "refugees" (refugees from what, I have no idea), not a shiny luxury liner. She arrived on Coruscant on a giant luxury liner, or rather her double did. Amidala herself was piloting one of the escort fighters.


I'm referring to the ship she took to land on Tatooine. It was a huge, shiny luxury cruiser.

I'm sure it was a huge shiny ship, and she was supposed to be on Coruscant at the time.

Aodoi
2002-May-22, 10:16 PM
The ship she took to Tatooine was shiny, but appeared much smaller than the one she arrived on Coruscant in (well, next to...). In the first movie they fled Naboo in a very similar shiny ship, apparently that's just the way they make ships on Naboo. Why? Because Lucas can afford to pay for rendering reflections on an oddly shaped mirrored surface, that's why! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I did rather like Obi-Wan's ship w/ detacheable hyperdrive. That, at least, seemed practical.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Aodoi on 2002-05-22 18:19 ]</font>

Timm
2002-May-22, 10:55 PM
Just watched Ep. 2, and (wow) it was great!

I like how the Jedi where shown as the "super-soldiers", like Obi-Wan thinks "Oh hell, I'll make it somehow!" and jumps out of a window in the 100th floor.
Jango Fett was a little unlucky against Mace Windu, but he was run-over by a ... huge-critter-thingy before and probably lost some of his equipment.

And there where "realistic" battle scenes. Serious weapons, not funny dancing creatures throwing blue balls of magicaly condensed energy at a robot army. This was much better than last time.

But the best thing were the critters!! All those small/huge/creepy creatures running around on the various planets... Lucas must have spend bazillions of dollars for their fur - thats still the most difficult thing to do with CGI.

There was one thing I didn't like in this Movie:
When the Clone Army is discovered, everybody is impressed, and it's help is apreciated.
But nobody has any morale issues with that?
The Jedi use an army made of clones that where only made to fight and die?
Nobody even says something like "Hm, all these young guys are going to die after a 10 year life of extreme hard military training. They had no fun in their life and have no right to decide whether they want to help or not. Oh Well."
An I the only one who has trouble with that?

(please excuse my grammar/spelling)

nebularain
2002-May-22, 11:03 PM
I forgot to ask:

Is it possible for a terrestrial planet to have rings around it?

Paul Unwin
2002-May-22, 11:12 PM
I too wondered about the C3PO problem. In Episode IV, he reacts like he had never seen or heard of Tatooine (I think I killed the spelling of that planet's name). How could he not know about the planet he originally came from?

Easy: memory flush. My bet is that Artoo gets one too.

My question (not wholly appropriate for this board, but what the heck) is why doesn't Owen recognize Artoo and Threepio when they show up again on his farm? My wife think it's because both droids are simply stock designs (although Threepio was hand-built) and Owen has seen too many of the same kind to believe that they are the exact same droids. Besides, Threepio gets a shiny new coat.

Paul "etiquette and protocol" Unwin

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 11:21 PM
Yes, I thought that too (about the clone army, how the "good guys" the jedis, seemingly don't care that all that flesh is massively manufactured to be torn up by cannons). Or that the guy who is cloned is actually a bounty hunter( think about the most corruptible, double-crossing, treasonous breed of people ever) and who also tried to dispatch Obi-Wan, not to mention Padme, Mace Windu and Anakin, and seems to be friends with Count Dooku.

And that's what I said... the huge ship of someone important who is supposed NOT to be there landing on a poor planet populated by thieves and other misfits. How dumb can you be? All that's missing is a huge red bullseye painted over it and a solar sail **** in front of it with "QUEEN AMIDALA IS IN THAT SHIP! BOUNTY HUNTERS REFRAIN FROM ATTACKING PLEASE!"

And I thought that the removable hyperdrive was a great idea! It looks cool, it feels cool, and why carry around extra weight? Only I feel Obi-Wan sorta destroys this by doing an unecessarily risky maneuver of passing in the hyperdrive cylinder with centimeters on each side!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mr. X on 2002-05-22 19:24 ]</font>

Firefox
2002-May-22, 11:21 PM
There was one thing I didn't like in this Movie:
When the Clone Army is discovered, everybody is impressed, and it's help is apreciated.
But nobody has any morale issues with that?

I'm assuming cloning has been around for a while. Dexter, the alien Obi-Wan talks to in that retro-diner, mentions the Kaminoans were "cloners." I'm willing to bet they've done that for a while, and in a society that's been spacefaring for thousands of years, I'm sure the Republic has approached and dealt with this dicey issue.


Adam

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firefox on 2002-05-22 19:24 ]</font>

The Curtmudgeon
2002-May-22, 11:22 PM
Well, I have to admit that my only problem with Phil's review are non-astro-related. I just can't, in the main, agree that the film was all that good.

The thing that galls me the most is, Lucas expects us to believe that the guy who is slated to become the most evil person in the Universe started out as a spoiled brat that just needed to be spanked a couple more times? I mean, really. Can you see this Anakin in Attack of the Clowns becoming more evil than Hitler, Attila the Hun and Alexander the Great all roled [sic] into one? Not me. I'd send him to bed without his supper, and then we'd see some changes! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif Sure, what happened to his mother was pretty bad, and likely to send anyone a bit over the top. But people have lost loved one before, even to murdering bandits and the like, and not gone on to great evil. I just can't believe the so-called motivation here.

If he was five or six and saw his mother treated that way and killed, then I could easier believe that it warped him that much. But unless Lucas wants us to believe that the Jedi Academy intentionally stunted his emotional development so that he continues to react to the world like a spoiled five-year-old, it just doesn't ring true. Again, this view isn't uniquely mine but was the concensus of the group (three of us total) that I saw the film with. We were all of us underwhelmed by what purported to be character development here.

And Lucas is getting just a tad too repetitious with that Jedi-must-fight-former-Master routine. Every single one of the Jedi-v.-Jedi fights were of that type, almost: Dooku was the Master of Obi-Wan's Master, so that's a very minor variation; and then he fights Anakin, which just stretches it out to three generations. But we don't get to see Windu fighting Dooku, or any Jedi fighting some Jedi who learned from a totally different Master. It's always got to be the Father-figure thing.

Okay, a lot of people want to see Yoda in a sabre duel; I'm cool with that. But then why not make Dooku the former Paduan of Windu, not Yoda? But no, it's got to be the Father-figure fight, always. If I were a Freudist, I'd start worrying about Mr. George Lucas, I would! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

One thing I do like about the film is the very obvious homage to Roman history, and even Roman could-have-been history. It's pretty obvious that Lucas wants this to be his interpretation of what might have happened if the Senatorial assassination squad hadn't gotten to Julius. Picture a surviving Julius Caesar, leader of the Senate of the Roman Republic, but with the inner knowledge that he *could* be, maybe even *should* be, an Emperor? How does he pull it off? Well, he could do a lot worse than what Palpatine has done; and really, given what we know about Juli, I can certainly see him following this script. If there is no real menace out there--and remember, Carthage has already been sown with salt, Gaul divided into three pieces and served up as pie, and Pompey squashed like a bug--then why not just invent one? Perfect! Don't grab power when you can arrange to have it thrust upon you! And, of course, Juli would have had the perfect image to point to: he would be yet another Cincinnatus, weilding the power only for good and gladly laying it down when it's all over and retiring to his farm--only somehow, he seems to keep forgetting to do that last bit. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Palpatine's acceptance speech was perfect; I did almost expect him to mention Cincinnatus by name. And yes, Aodoi, it was perfect to see JarJar Binks as the clown that hands it all to him.

The CGI stuff, and even most of the other artwork, was super-cool as we've all come to expect. It's just such a damn pity that the "acting" going on in front of it spoiled the view.

The (no acting Oscars in this film's future) Curtmudgeon

Firefox
2002-May-22, 11:26 PM
Can you see this Anakin in Attack of the Clowns becoming more evil than Hitler, Attila the Hun and Alexander the Great all roled [sic] into one? Not me. I'd send him to bed without his supper, and then we'd see some changes!

You tell an 18-year-old who has a lightsaber, and is incredibly adept in the Force, to do what you say. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


Adam

Mr. X
2002-May-22, 11:28 PM
Sure, what happened to his mother was pretty bad, and likely to send anyone a bit over the top. But people have lost loved one before, even to murdering bandits and the like, and not gone on to great evil. I just can't believe the so-called motivation here.

If he was five or six and saw his mother treated that way and killed, then I could easier believe that it warped him that much.


Funny you should say this... think about Boba Fett... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Chip
2002-May-22, 11:35 PM
On 2002-05-22 19:26, Firefox wrote:
You tell an 18-year-old who has a lightsaber, and is incredibly adept in the Force, to do what you say. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


You say:
"Eh dude...can you hit that telephone poll over there?" "While you're aiming at it, I'll wait over here....in the next room...in the next city...on another planet...far far way...) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Timm
2002-May-22, 11:35 PM
On 2002-05-22 19:22, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
*snipsnap*
The CGI stuff, and even most of the other artwork, was super-cool as we've all come to expect. It's just such a damn pity that the "acting" going on in front of it spoiled the view.
*snapsnip*

In front of it, literally. About 90% of this movie must have been made with bluescreens. Imagine: You're an actor and you have to play a dramatic scene in a blue-painted phone box. Not the best surrounding... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

As far as I can tell, the scenes in Amidala's residence and some other interiors are the only ones NOT made by CGI, like an ILM overkill.

-Ti(wow, that's a pretty fast thread...)mm /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

The Curtmudgeon
2002-May-22, 11:59 PM
On 2002-05-22 19:28, Mr. X wrote:
Funny you should say this... think about Boba Fett... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Yes, exactly! See, I can see Boba growing up with a very definite chip on his shoulders and a desire to make every single Jedi in the universe pay for killing his father. Especially if he knows that he's a clone of his father, not a normal progeny.

But I guess another way of stating my problem with Anakin is: is that all that the Jedi Academy teaches you to do with The Force, steal food off others' plates and weild a light-sabre?? What about the emotional balance necessary to reach out and deal with The Force to start with? Wasn't this a huge part of Luke's problems in Ep. IV--he kept letting his anger get in his way? Okay, so maybe Anakin is so much more powerful that he can reach out and force The Force to do what he wants regardless of his emotional state--but we certainly haven't seen any evidence that he's that powerful. Dooku literally mopped the floor with him. He walked into an enemy stronghold like he was on a spring picnic with his lover and damn near got his arm cut off because of it, never mind barely missing getting said lover boiled in molten metal. Brilliant, this kid ain't. And he can stand next to the dreaded Sith Lord himself, and not only not recognise the warping in The Force but lick up all the flattery Palpatine's throwing around like it was so much cream. (Of course, maybe that's just me: anyone starts laying that much flattery on me, and I know that something's fishy!)

So, maybe Obi-Wan's just a tremendously bad mentor. I certainly agree with the earlier posts about how brain-dead Obi-Wan must have been to miss the obvious reason for the missing planet in the archives. (Bad writing or editing, there, by the way: the Archivist says something to the effect, "I don't recognise the co-ordinates" when Obi-Wan hasn't mentioned any yet.) And he certainly feels no emotional tie to his Paduan. I can at least almost see his character development, here: he's doing such a tremendously bad job with Anakin that it's no wonder he'll be kicking himself for decades over his failure and make himself a better mentor for Luke when the time comes. It's almost like he lets Darth kill him because he acknowledges how much he failed Anakin in the first place.

I don't know. Maybe it'll all make sense when Ep. III arrives. But right now, I can see Anakin turning out a right hard case, but not Darth Vader. It just isn't there for me. The only thing evil about him is his acting.

The (I'm going to see Spider-Man again, just to forget this movie) Curtmudgeon

Kizarvexis
2002-May-23, 02:57 AM
On 2002-05-22 19:22, The Curtmudgeon wrote:
The thing that galls me the most is, Lucas expects us to believe that the guy who is slated to become the most evil person in the Universe started out as a spoiled brat that just needed to be spanked a couple more times? I mean, really. Can you see this Anakin in Attack of the Clowns becoming more evil than Hitler, Attila the Hun and Alexander the Great all roled [sic] into one? Not me. I'd send him to bed without his supper, and then we'd see some changes! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif Sure, what happened to his mother was pretty bad, and likely to send anyone a bit over the top. But people have lost loved one before, even to murdering bandits and the like, and not gone on to great evil. I just can't believe the so-called motivation here.


Don't forget that Senator Palaptine has been whispering the council of the Darkside to Anakin while he was at the academy. What was it Yoda said. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to suffering or something to that effect?

Kizarvexis

LunarOrbit
2002-May-23, 04:35 AM
I don't know. Maybe it'll all make sense when Ep. III arrives. But right now, I can see Anakin turning out a right hard case, but not Darth Vader. It just isn't there for me. The only thing evil about him is his acting.

Part of the reason Anakin becomes Darth Vader is not just because his mother was killed, but because the Jedi took him away from his mother for ten years and he didn't get to see her again until 5 seconds before she died. So he's going to hold the Jedi as much responsible for his missing out on his mothers love as he does the Tusken Raiders.

It was made clear in The Phantom Menace that Anakin was dangerous. He was powerful, but full of fear. He was also too old to begin the training so that may have affected how he turns out when he gets older.

But I think the biggest thing that will lead to his becoming Darth Vader is power. Power corrupts. He has shown in Ep. 1 and 2 that he enjoys his power and he doesn't like being held back by Obi-Wan. And I guaranty that in Ep. 3 Senator Palpatine will use that weakness to convert him to the dark side the same way he tried to bring Luke to the dark side in Return of the Jedi.

Overall I really liked Attack of the Clones. It doesn't have the same feel as the original trilogy, but it was definately a lot better than The Phantom Menace (which I liked more than most people did).

amstrad
2002-May-23, 02:01 PM
On 2002-05-23 00:35, LunarOrbit wrote:
But I think the biggest thing that will lead to his becoming Darth Vader is power. Power corrupts. He has shown in Ep. 1 and 2 that he enjoys his power and he doesn't like being held back by Obi-Wan. And I guaranty that in Ep. 3 Senator Palpatine will use that weakness to convert him to the dark side the same way he tried to bring Luke to the dark side in Return of the Jedi.


This is all true, and I the following is my prediction:

-Anakin will witness Dooku kill Amidala
-Anakin will kill Dooku in a rage of hate in the presence of Palpatine
-Palpatine, in a "foreshadow" of Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ, will convince Anakin to join him. Palpatine succeeds here, and fails in ROTJ.
-Anakin, now a Sith apprentice, sets out on a mission to destroy the Jedi for reasons that LunarOrbit mentioned
-Anakin and Obi-wan will battle in a hostile environment. Obi-wan wins, but Anakin is not killed (obviously), just severly injured (most likely burned), requiring him to wear a helmet and re-breather

It is also my opinion that Anakin knew of the birth of Luke (not of Leia). He probably also knew where Obi-wan hid him, but he did not want to confront him out of inner shame or guilt. Had Vader known that Luke would turn out to be the pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he might have sought him out earlier.

SeanF
2002-May-23, 05:44 PM
On 2002-05-23 10:01, amstrad wrote:

-Anakin will witness Dooku kill Amidala


I don't know about this. We know from the other movies that Anakin has absolutely no knowledge of Amidala's daughter's existence, but we also know that Leia remembers Amidala. Hard to have Amidala's death contribute to Anakin's turning if Obi-Wan has to have hidden Leia with Amidala for a couple years before Amidala dies . . .



It is also my opinion that Anakin knew of the birth of Luke (not of Leia). He probably also knew where Obi-wan hid him, but he did not want to confront him out of inner shame or guilt. Had Vader known that Luke would turn out to be the pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he might have sought him out earlier.


This, I agree with. It almost seems to me that Obi-Wan was trying to keep Luke from knowing about Vader moreso than trying to keep Vader from knowing about Luke. If he didn't want Vader to know about Luke, surely he could have done it better than having him still using the family name and living with Vader's step-brother on Vader's home planet! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

SpacedOut
2002-May-23, 06:23 PM
I agree with Sean that the death of Padme cannot be the cause of Anakin’s conversion because Leia remembers her. We now know that one can use the force to affect the ability of others to use the force – the Jedi’s diminished abilities caused by Palpatine – did Obi-Wan remain on Tatooine to block Lick’s presence from the Sith?

As for Anakin’s conversion to Vader – I believe in Episode IV when Yoda is talking about the Dark Side he states that it is also seductive – Anakin’s need to be the “most powerful Jedi” allows him to be seduced.

(please forgive any Spelling errors!)

amstrad
2002-May-23, 06:27 PM
On 2002-05-23 13:44, SeanF wrote:


On 2002-05-23 10:01, amstrad wrote:

-Anakin will witness Dooku kill Amidala


I don't know about this. We know from the other movies that Anakin has absolutely no knowledge of Amidala's daughter's existence, but we also know that Leia remembers Amidala. Hard to have Amidala's death contribute to Anakin's turning if Obi-Wan has to have hidden Leia with Amidala for a couple years before Amidala dies . . .

I thought about that too, here is my explaination:

<UL>
<LI>Anakin and Amidala get married at the end of E2. But their marraige is a secret and they don't live together and each continue their lives (Senetor and Jedi) seeing each other occasionally.</LI>
<LI>They have a falling out and slowly drift apart, but Anakin still loves her (Amidala however is getting slightly anoyed with Anakin). This is where she gets pregnant.</LI>
<LI>Amidala gives birth on Alderan, but Anakin is not around. She tells Obi-wan to take Luke to Tatooine, and raises Leia with the help of the House of Organa.</LI>
<LI>Dooku takes Amidala hostage when Leia is maybe 3 to try and trap Anakin, Dooku also does not know about Leia.</LI>
<LI>Anakin appears at which point Dooku kills Amidala (probably an order from Palpatine)</LI>
<LI>After Bail Organa hears the news of her mother's death, he takes Leia in and makes her a part of his family on Alderan where she later becomes a senator.</LI>
[/list]

It seems neccesary to me for that Dooku kill Amidala in order to generate enough hate in Anakin for him to fall

LunarOrbit
2002-May-23, 06:46 PM
The only way I can see that working is if Ep. 3 starts out with Luke & Leia already three or four years old.

Mr. X
2002-May-23, 06:48 PM
Palpatine, in a "foreshadow" of Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ, will convince Anakin to join him. Palpatine succeeds here, and fails in ROTJ.

Almost suceeded too, had him there for a second. Luke would not have gone through Vader if he hadn't been that enraged when Vader mentioned Leia. Jedis are supposed to fight "defensively", and that is not at all what Luke does. He's totally furious and jumps out hitting with the sole idea of killing him. He's one nanometer away from striking down Vader as the emperor asked.

For a moment Luke was making it, he enjoyed his hate and the power it gave him, and what he says to the emperor right afterwards is reluctantly said, but he knows what is the right thing to do, as opposed to what would advantage him the most.

informant
2002-May-23, 06:56 PM
amstrad wrote:


It is also my opinion that Anakin knew of the birth of Luke (not of Leia).

When talking with the Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader mentions "the son of Skywalker". He doesn't sound one bit surprised. (Only surprised at the Emperor's statement that Luke presented a threat to them.)
He knew about him.

(Personally, I prefer to think that it wasn't out of shame that Vader ignored Luke's existance, but out of complete despise of him.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: informant on 2002-05-23 14:59 ]</font>

Aodoi
2002-May-23, 08:53 PM
And there where "realistic" battle scenes. Serious weapons, not funny dancing creatures throwing blue balls of magicaly condensed energy at a robot army. This was much better than last time. While the lack of silly weaponry might seem to make the battle better, I just couldn't get over the astonishingly stupid tactics being used. I mean, really. When was the last time 2 armies basically stood toe to toe in formation and wailed away at one another? They were all standing straight up and firing like maniacs... why not, oh, I dunno... try to fire from cover? I assume blasters are at least marginally effective at ranges of greater than 5 feet. Hell, one of those giant beam cannon things (they used to shoot down the spherical ship) could can swept the entire field of troops... just aim horizontal and sweep 90 degrees or so. Then mop up the flying combatants.

Not to mention that they never say where the thousands of ships the clones have come from. They just clone proto-star destroyers now too?

And tell me the seens with the robots shooting at the jedi weren't a tad sparse with the amount of fire being deflected by lightsabers? Hundreds of robots and the jedi are deflecting a shot every second or two... just seemed kinda lame to me.

But at least I gain entertainment from whining about it. Hey! Maybe that means I can be a Dark Lord of the Sith and the scourge of the galaxy! Let me try it out... "I hate sand..." Sorry, can't keep a straight face. There's goes my ambitions of galactic conquest. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-23, 11:00 PM
For that matter, why not slam a spaceship into the ground at 0.9 c? That would do a fair bit more damage, and you can be sure you finsihed the job.

Silas
2002-May-23, 11:37 PM
On 2002-05-23 19:00, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
For that matter, why not slam a spaceship into the ground at 0.9 c? That would do a fair bit more damage, and you can be sure you finsihed the job.


With the overall skill level demonstrated by the Imperials...they'd probably miss...

Firefox
2002-May-24, 02:27 AM
On 2002-05-23 19:00, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
For that matter, why not slam a spaceship into the ground at 0.9 c? That would do a fair bit more damage, and you can be sure you finsihed the job.


I think that would've been considered a waste of resources, as well as avoiding the objective of rescuing the Jedi.

As for finding cover during the battle, what cover? It seemed to take place over relatively flat terrain, so there was little choice but to charge. Considering the separatists' use of droids, they seemed little concerned about losing them, while the Republic army wanted to preserve its clones. They also had air support from the gunships, ground support from the AT-TEs, and I'm sure the Assault ships were providing cover fire, too.


Adam

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-24, 04:32 PM
Just read the review again and had a couple of comments...

First, "The disk may have vast spiral arms sweeping through it, though not all do."

I assume you are referring to SBO or SO galaxies, called armless spirals or lenticular galaxies. Next time I watch it, I will look close to see if I can classify the galaxy from the map /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Second, I think the reason they only removed Kamino from the map and not its gravitational effect is that people would be less likely to notice. After all, they can't remove the effect of gravity from the universe. If they removed it from the map, lots of people would proabably notice that the planets and stars weren't where they map said they should be! Fewer people probably look at the map for gravitational effects than for navigational purposes. Since we routinely see dozens of spaceships traveling to any given planet, it seem obvious that someone would figure this out fairly quickly! So removing gravitational effects from the map would also lead to something lots of people would notice...either way, there is a problem and we have to chalk it up to a plot device.

3. Yeah, the seismic charges were just silly. They should have just made up a name for them /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

LunarOrbit
2002-May-24, 06:03 PM
I thought the visible energy from the siesmic bombs was the cause of the asteroids exploding, and the sound was just for the audience's benefit (just like the sound of spaceships or lasers in space).

Ben Benoy
2002-May-25, 01:46 AM
Ok, coupla things. About Boba Fett. He's kinda cool and all, but he was just a guy trying to get paid in ESB and RotJ. Now all of a sudden he has a burning desire to rid the universe of the Jedi/Skywalkers/BAMF's? How does this compute? Truth is lies, baby. Truth is lies.

Second, of my couple, of things. As far as this whole "the system is gone, but the gravity remains" bit. Did anyone else get the impression that he was saying that stuff was swirling around a blank spot on his map, and that seemed strange to him? I know i'm not articulating this well, but it seemed a little goofy to me. I mean, how fast do stars move, really?

Ok, I think that's all. Just more obscure ramblings.

Ben

PS So, have any of you guys figured out what shape the world is? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Silas
2002-May-25, 02:22 AM
Second, of my couple, of things. As far as this whole "the system is gone, but the gravity remains" bit. Did anyone else get the impression that he was saying that stuff was swirling around a blank spot on his map, and that seemed strange to him? I know i'm not articulating this well, but it seemed a little goofy to me. I mean, how fast do stars move, really?


Take the twenty nearest stars: Alpha Centauri, Barnard's Star, etc. etc. Hide any one of them. Would we be able to determine the invisible star by gravitational clues? Nope... Not by a factor of ten to the fifteenth power (back of the envelope lower-limit estimate.)

Proper motion is tiny. Minuscule. Negligible. No way, Jose.



PS So, have any of you guys figured out what shape the world is? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Why, flat, of course! Flat as a griddle cake! Flat as the Bonneville Salt Flats! Flat as me trying to sing! This, in sooth, is inerrant truth!

Silas

Mr. X
2002-May-25, 07:41 PM
Saw episode 2 again yesterday as The Bad Astronomer instructed us to do, and a couple of think I saw better this time...

-Did you see how Anakin gets humiliated in public two times and just takes it in the dash and smiles?
-Queen Amidala is SUPPOSED to be on Naboo without anyone knowing, yet she goes to Tatooine in a GIANT SILVER SHINY LUXURY LINER, and she goes to Mos Eisley, a place populated by bounty hunters and other scum.
-Obi-Wan has a blue saber, so does Anakin until he destroys it, he then gets a green one, which is destroyed, so only Obi-Wan's blue sword remains... could this be the same one that is given to Luke, because Obi-Wan gives it to Anakin, and then recuperates it somehow in episode 3?

Speculation:

-Will Boba Fett be the one that kills Mace Windu?

Jiggs
2002-May-25, 08:57 PM
I'm still peaved over the term parsec. In episode IV Han Solo uses it as a term for speed. Episode II corrects that error and creates another by grossly undervalueing distances in that spiral galaxy far away. Three or four parsecs is a small part of a galaxy. Ours is 28000 across. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jiggs on 2002-05-25 17:01 ]</font>

Chuck
2002-May-25, 10:57 PM
But this was a long time ago. Galaxies were closer together back then.

amstrad
2002-May-26, 01:38 AM
On 2002-05-25 15:41, Mr. X wrote:
-Will Boba Fett be the one that kills Mace Windu?


this is my opinion too... I mean Boba Fett must be pretty pissed off with this particular Jedi... People say that a ~12 won't be able to kill one of the most skilled Jedi in the galaxy, but he is going to become a bounty hunter. Its not likely that he will confront him face to face, more likely it will be a trap.

Firefox
2002-May-26, 03:27 AM
I've heard one or two explanations for why Han used "parsecs." The one that seems to make more sense is in reference to a cluster of black holes near the Kessel system. The contest was to see who had the guts to skim the closest past the cluster, since their gravity makes hyperdrive useless. So, in other words, Han was able to make the closest approach to the black holes, shaving off the distance needed to travel.

That, or we could go with Obi-Wan's grimace when he hears the story. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Adam

Mr. X
2002-May-26, 06:44 AM
On 2002-05-25 21:38, amstrad wrote:


On 2002-05-25 15:41, Mr. X wrote:
-Will Boba Fett be the one that kills Mace Windu?


this is my opinion too... I mean Boba Fett must be pretty pissed off with this particular Jedi... People say that a ~12 won't be able to kill one of the most skilled Jedi in the galaxy, but he is going to become a bounty hunter. Its not likely that he will confront him face to face, more likely it will be a trap.


I think it will be a head to head confrontation, with all the extra gizmos Boba Fett has and uses. The lightsaber isn't to fear, mandalorian armors are supposed to stop them dead in their tracks. Unless Windu does the same thing again, I'd say the chances are pretty equal knowing only the soft spots of the armor is vulnerable.

They said Obi-Wan was as powerful as Windu, and I seem to recall he had one hell of a time trying to catch Jango Fett.

No lightsaber, I think Jango (or Boba) is superior in unarmed combat. He pounded Obi-Wan a great deal hand to hand.

Blasters, I don't know, I seem to recall a Jedi getting dispatched by a couple blaster shots from Jango.

Maybe that a victory in a one versus one duel with a jedi master is what brought him his reputation.

Code Red
2002-May-27, 12:18 PM
-Obi-Wan has a blue saber, so does Anakin until he destroys it, he then gets a green one, which is destroyed, so only Obi-Wan's blue sword remains... could this be the same one that is given to Luke, because Obi-Wan gives it to Anakin, and then recuperates it somehow in episode 3?


Neither of the lightsabres used in the Dooku fight sequence were Obi-Wan or Anakin's own - if you recall Obi-Wan's was taken from him when he was captured and Anakin's got cut in two in the foundry scene. When the Jedi arrive, you see two Jedi toss a couple of "spares" to the lads. The original idea that Jedi only have one lightsabre that they build as part of their training seems to be incorrect...

Obi-Wan's lightsabre has a distinctive sphere on the end of the pommel, and both Darth Vader's and Luke's original sabre are quite functional-looking designs, with that sort of crescent-shaped cowl over the top of the beam emitter... I would theorise therefore, that Anakin builds a new lightsabre for himself, which Obi-Wan picks up after he's cast him into the lava pit, later giging it to Luke. What's left of Anakin then build yet another lightsabre, this time with a red blade - cos' he's evil now.

Code Red
2002-May-27, 12:28 PM
Regarding the plot ideas for episode 3, I have the following idea to chuck in the pot...

Christopher Lee is 80, so there's a chance he may have rejoined the Force for real before the shooting of Episode 3 is done. In which event, George Lucas will hire his wife's dentist (who looks nothing like Lee and is a different height) to play Dooku, playing the entire film with a cloak across his face. The film will be entitled "Star Wars - Plan 9 From Outer Space."

Wally
2002-May-28, 05:19 PM
hey code red. I've been meaning to ask for a while now. What movie does your signiture quote come from??? Or, did you just make it up? I like it. Humor in it's simplicity.

Hale_Bopp
2002-May-28, 06:21 PM
Code Red's signature is from an episode of the Britocom "Red Dwarf".

Another one of my favorites is when the computer informs everyone...

"Emergency. Emergency. There's an emergecny going on."

Rob

The Curtmudgeon
2002-May-28, 10:53 PM
Tracking back to a point mentioned earlier in the thread, George Lucas has confirmed that C-3PO & R2D2 both get their memory systems erased in Ep. III. So that's why they didn't recognise anyone in Ep. IV.

I'm not sure if anyone earlier had stated that this was a fact, or only speculation, but at least now Lucas has confirmed it.

I found it on Coming Attractions (http://www.corona.bc.ca/films/details/sw3.html).

The (it's probably happened to me, too) Curtmudgeon

Code Red
2002-May-29, 07:10 AM
That seems to make sense - if you recall in ANH, Owen Lars makes the comment to Luke that he should take the droids into town to have their memories erased. It was probably common practice to do that - lets face it, to people then a droid was little more than a mobile phone, and wouldn't you erase all the old phonebook entries if you bought a second hand mobile?

Oh yeah Wally - Red Dwarf. At its peak it was one of the finest comedy sci-fi shows ever. Another personal favourite is "I hate to get all technical, but SWIRLY THING ALERT!!"

Balerion
2002-May-29, 08:22 PM
On Dooku not erasing the gravity...

Didn't you get that he did that on purpose? Palpatine/Sidious needed an army, so he had Dooku order a clone army for the republic, posing as a Jedi master. Then he made sure Obi-Wan found Kamino and reported it back so that when Palpatine got his emergency powers he could immediately form the army. It wasn't lazy plotting, it was Dooku's plan all along.

Aodoi
2002-May-29, 09:22 PM
Just because it was possibly part of Dooku's (or Sidious's, really) plan doesn't preclude that it was lazy plotting. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

The real question is: why hide the planet at all? Nobody knew to look for it until Fett used that oddly specific dart to waste his lackey. Given the large number of planets in the Star Wars Universe, why would one in the far rim outside of Republic control attract any attention in any case?

Can anyone think of why the world would need to be erased? Who would have looked for it? It seems altogether unnecessary.

For that matter, why did Dooku try to talk Obi-Wan into joining him? If he already knew the future he knew that Obi-Wan wouldn't join him, and he was pretending not to be a Sith at the time, so what was the whole deal? What, it's just what bad guys do (along with putting the heros in easily escapeable death traps... ill-tempered bass with frickin' laser beams!)? I guess the most charitable interpretation would be the old "well, didn't hurt anything if he refused." Seemed a bit of a waste of a scene, honestly. Again, I think Lucas just wanted to show off the levitating shackles as a cool effect rather than any sort of use to the plot.

But back on what little point I had to make here... the whole "Sidious knows the future so everything that doesn't make sense is part of his plan" seems terribly unfulfilling. It sorta seems like the Jedi aren't responsible for their downfall, they're just outgunned by the improbably powerful Sideous and his oddly impressive apprentices. There's no "fatal flaw" in the Jedi's eventual destruction, hence no tragedy. They're just too weak to survive. It all seems lacking somehow. If everything is quite literally predestined in the movies (and you're stuck with the feeling it is in any case), then the participants barely matter, they can't change the outcome anyway. Personally, I think Lucas should be minimizing that inevitable aspect of a prequel rather than relying on it as the entire plot.

But then, I'm expecting deep thoughts from Lucas... so I've already figured out that I'm inevitably going to be disappointed. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Mr. X
2002-May-30, 06:15 AM
Ever notice from RotJ that it's usually when Palpatine says "Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" that all hell breaks loose and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING goes completely wrong?

What I'm thinking is that he just says that not to look like an idiot because he has no plan whatsoever... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

He must wear a pretty strong deodorant too, as jedis can smell when he feels tense /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Martian Jim
2002-May-30, 07:01 AM
palaptine IS darth sideouse. at the end, when dooku returns to the city plannet, he starts to talk to sideouse. you then see palaptine watch the clones go to war.

it sideouse, who is watching his plans bear fruit.

but then again this may be a film with a twist to it as we discover that the darth sideouse is in fact JAR JAR BINKS! :-B

obe wan: die you sith scum! (pulls out light saber) wait! it cant be! its.......

darth sideouse: me sa jar jar binks! me sa think you die! (fires electricty bolt at obe wan, but he dosent realise the floor is metal and obe wan has plastic boots on. he misses obe wan and hits the floor, which conducts the electricty to himself and he kills himself)

Conrad
2002-May-30, 09:28 AM
On 2002-05-30 03:01, Martian Jim wrote:
palaptine IS darth sideouse. at the end, when dooku returns to the city plannet, he starts to talk to sideouse. you then see palaptine watch the clones go to war.

it sideouse, who is watching his plans bear fruit.

but then again this may be a film with a twist to it as we discover that the darth sideouse is in fact JAR JAR BINKS! :-B

obe wan: die you sith scum! (pulls out light saber) wait! it cant be! its.......

darth sideouse: me sa jar jar binks! me sa think you die! (fires electricty bolt at obe wan, but he dosent realise the floor is metal and obe wan has plastic boots on. he misses obe wan and hits the floor, which conducts the electricty to himself and he kills himself)


Jim, you just gave the plot of the next film away. Damn you and your Martian clairvoyance!

Mr. X
2002-May-30, 05:37 PM
Bah! Everyone knows Darth Sidious is C3PO, the only force aware droid in the universe!

informant
2002-Jun-01, 02:05 PM
Tracking back to a point mentioned earlier in the thread, George Lucas has confirmed that C-3PO & R2D2 both get their memory systems erased in Ep. III. So that's why they didn't recognise anyone in Ep. IV.

I'm not sure if anyone earlier had stated that this was a fact, or only speculation, but at least now Lucas has confirmed it.

I wonder if George Lucas reads these forums.
Perhaps you guys should charge him.

johnwitts
2002-Jun-02, 12:16 AM
Going back to Johnno's point about the silvery ship still being shiney after re-entry, remember that things don't have to re-enter the atmosphere quickly. For sure, the Space Shuttle and returning Apollo Moon capsules enter the atmosphere at a fair old lick and need the friction of the air to slow them down. But an interstellar craft would have the ability to slow itself down, to maybe a couple of hundred knots, before even getting anywhere near the atmosphere. Maybe.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: johnwitts on 2002-06-01 20:17 ]</font>

Firefox
2002-Jun-02, 01:58 AM
As I had posted earlier, ships in SW likely use some sort of "deflector shield" when traveling in and out of atmospheres. In Episode I, the Royal Starship had taken around a minute to get from the hangar to exoatmospheric flight. I'm sure the hull would've been experiencing tremendous heating in that amount of time.


Adam

Hale_Bopp
2002-Jun-02, 04:15 AM
To say nothing of the g-forces that must be endured to get from the ground to extraatmospheric flight in that time. It take the Space Shuttle ~9 minutes to main engine shutoff and they are undergoing several g's most of that time.

I believe in Star Trek they have what they call inertial dampers that somehow make sure that you experience 1g of force directed toward the floor no matter what the ship happens to be doing. Useful sci fi plot device /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rob

cosmicdave
2002-Jun-02, 08:08 PM
I'm surprised that you guys could get your heads above your anoraks or get your glasses with the plaster in the middle focused enough to watch this film.

StarWars is science FICTION, it doesn't say at the start of the film 'This film is based on a true story' does it?

God you lot are really sad...

I can't believe that you are challenging science in a science fiction film. Thats why its called SCIENCE FICTION you idiots!

I'm surprised that none of you have asked how the laser stops at the end of the saber because lasers are infinite until they hit an object!

You sad, sad lot of losers!

Roy Batty
2002-Jun-02, 08:12 PM
Hope that feels better now youve got that off your chest, now how about seriously addressing some of those Apollo rebuttals on a certain other forum, hmmn?
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Martian Jim
2002-Jun-02, 08:15 PM
really? drat, i thought it was real /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif

least we aint the ones who jabber on about the moon hoax and have no real evidence to back it up

Kaptain K
2002-Jun-02, 08:21 PM
You sad, sad lot of losers!
Said the pot to the kettles. The whole purpose of this sub-forum (Bad Movie, Bad TV...) is to discuss bad science in science ficition DUH!!
Why don't you go back to the Lunar Conspiricies sub-forum and actually defend some of your HB-**.

cosmicdave
2002-Jun-02, 08:41 PM
I am, but some of you idiots cant seem to read what I'm saying.

Perhaps I should set up a forum for all us UFO believers to debate whether Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Men in Black or similar movies portray UFOs exactly how we have seen them? that would be the equivalent.

Timm
2002-Jun-02, 09:27 PM
On 2002-06-02 16:08, cosmicdave wrote:
(...)
Thats why its called SCIENCE FICTION you idiots!
(...)
You sad, sad lot of losers!


Why, thank you!

People here are not saying "Hah, look at mr. Lucas, now isn't he stupid? Can't get anything right.". I guess we all know that this is science fiction / fantasy, and that it is not meant to be real and / or realistic. But it's fun to think and talk about this stuff, to see how many "errors" you can spot.
The point isn't to find out how it's wrong in the movie, but to see how things would work in reality.
Many people don't know that certain things are physically "wrong" in nearly every movie, and so they're getting a false image of reality.
In every action movie a car that is shot at explodes. In reallity cars hardly do that.
This page and this part of the forum shows how things would work in real life, nothing more.

Nobody wants to bash the movies (only if they are really bad /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif).

Firefox
2002-Jun-02, 11:21 PM
We're a bunch of losers? Check out this guy's page:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc

For a guy who raked in a load of money for writing the Episode II Cross-sections book, he must be one real loser...

You may also want to reword your posts somewhat, Dave.


Adam

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Firefox on 2002-06-02 22:33 ]</font>

Kaptain K
2002-Jun-03, 01:57 AM
I am, but some of you idiots cant seem to read what I'm saying.
No! You're not. Whenever your points are shot down, you either weasel and evade or change the subject and bring up something totally irrelevant as a smokescreen.

PS Name calling will not help your cause.
_________________
When all is said and done - sit down and shut up!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-06-02 22:00 ]</font>

Aodoi
2002-Jun-04, 04:19 PM
I am, but some of you idiots cant[sic] seem to read what I'm saying.I'd tend to argue that it's impossible to read what anyone says. Unless it's transcribed, I suppose. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

informant
2002-Jun-04, 06:37 PM
StarWars is science FICTION, it doesn't say at the start of the film 'This film is based on a true story' does it?

So to you anything that says "based on a true story" is automatically true?! That figures. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


I can't believe that you are challenging science in a science fiction film. Thats why its called SCIENCE FICTION you [Rest of the sentence erased by evil NASA agents.]!

Science fiction should be consistent with science and honest to its less knowledgeable viewers.
Otherwise, people might end up acquiring extravagant nonsensical notions - the way you did after watching Fox's Moon Hoax "documentary".



[Added quotation marks to Fox's "documentary".]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: informant on 2002-06-04 14:40 ]</font>

lukaya
2002-Jun-05, 01:15 PM
I am a bit confused about those armies. A Clone Army is built on the Water planet Kamino on order of probably count dooku.
A Droid army is built in Geonosis.

But Yoda came with the Clone Army and suddenly they had weapons and space ships.
You didn't see them on water planet kamino.
Where did those weapons and space ships come from? When looking at how they were trained, it looked like they did Simulations at a Computer.

And the Kaminoans did built their Army without seeing a Jedi? So who paid the bill?
Surely they don't clone without money.

This isn't about bad science, but I am asking anyway.

Gramma loreto
2002-Jun-07, 06:54 PM
On 2002-06-02 16:08, cosmicdave wrote:

God you lot are really sad...

You sad, sad lot of losers!


Hmmmm....that's like being called ugly by a toad. With the credibility deficit you're suffering, Davey Boy, it just doesn't carry any weight.

Silas
2002-Jun-07, 07:34 PM
On 2002-06-07 14:54, Gramma loreto wrote:
Hmmmm....that's like being called ugly by a toad.


Actually, I've always found toads to be cute, in a lumpy sort of way. (And, of course, to Mrs. Toad, Mr. Toad is just as handsome as can be!)

Buzzards. Now buzzards are ugly.

Silas

Gramma loreto
2002-Jun-07, 10:17 PM
On 2002-06-07 15:34, Silas wrote:

Buzzards. Now buzzards are ugly.



Maybe the buzzards are different where you are but the ones I remember down south were rather handsome raptors. Now vultures on the other hand...

Code Red
2002-Jun-10, 12:18 PM
And the Kaminoans did built their Army without seeing a Jedi? So who paid the bill?
Surely they don't clone without money.


That's the whole point of the movie - it was Darth Sideous/Palpatine that was building up on both sides, so he paid the bills for the Clone and Droid armies...

Since the Clones were ready to ship, it follwos that he also would have made sure he had the necessary transport.

The most amaxing thing to me is how the Jedi were so dumb that they didn't notice that Jango Fett (the template for the clone army) was fighting alongside Count Dooku (the creator of the opposing droid army).

Hale_Bopp
2002-Jun-11, 03:07 AM
For another perspective on "Attack of the CLones", see the comic strip "The Boondocks".

http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/viewbo.cfm?uc_full_date=20020527&uc_comic=bo&uc_daction=X

http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/viewbo.cfm?uc_full_date=20020528&uc_comic=bo&uc_daction=X

Rob

David Hall
2002-Jul-29, 05:46 PM
Yay, the suffering is finally over. I finally got to see this movie tonight. What's even more amazing, I actually managed to avoid any major spoilers before I went.

Well, it looks like you pretty much thrashed out everything in this thread already, so it looks like I don't have too much to add. There are still a few other Ep2 threads I have to read over, but before I forget what I want to say, I think I'll make a few points here.

1. The Jedi can't seem to sense the presence of the Sith lord, even though he's walking right among them. I think this shows that Palpatine has developed some way to hide his presence. I get the feeling this is something new, something no Sith has been able to do before. Not only does Palpatine have an excellent ability to manipulate politics, he also has the power to hide himself from force-sensitives. He's obviously much more powerful than anyone would expect. Even the Jedi can't believe that anyone could hide his true power from them. They are starting to sense that something has gone terribly wrong though.

2. Someone said that Annakin was just acting like a spoiled kid, and the motivations don't seem to be there for his transformation. Well, I think it's not so much any one thing, but a combination of his weak points that gets him in the end. Also there are a couple of other factors. The first is the temptation of the force. A normal kid doesn't have the access to power to change his world that Annakin does. When Annakin feels hurt, he has a constant temptation to tap into this power to change things, or even just to make his pain go away. So he's at a much greater risk of sliding into darkness than an average person. Finally, there are the subtle machinations of Palpatine, which are no doubt masterfully designed to hit him in all his weakest spots. Palpatine has already been shown to be a master manipulator, so Annakin is probably a piece of cake for him.

3. Continuing on, I think Annakin's eventual transformation will be a kind of personality split within him. In ROTJ, Obi-Wan says that he ceased to be Annakin, and became Vader. So what I see are two diametric personalities developing in Annakin which battle for his soul, so to speak. Eventually of course with the dark Vader personality winning out. Someone also wondered whether Vader remembered Luke. I personally don't think so, at least not at first. I think when the Vader personality becomes dominant, most of the old Annakin memories get lost/buried. And Vader goes for 30-odd years totally immersed in the dark side and under control of the emperor. Whatever memories he had left would be further buried and all but forgotten. So in eps. IV-V, Vader starts out not knowing who this kid is. Hech, he may not even remember his own real name at that point. But his encounters with luke bring about a need to dredge up these old memories, and so he eventually remembers who luke is. But this meditation on the past also starts bringing up the old Annakin personality as well. Memories which eventually allow Luke to turn him back.

4. I don't think Padme will get killed in the next episode. Mostly because of Leah's statement about what she remembered about her mother. It also doesn't seem to be in the spirit of Lucas's story. However, that doesn't mean Annakin can't think she's been killed. And it certainly would allow for a final blow to put him over the edge. And so Luke and Leah get hidden away on two different worlds, the droids go with Leah and Padme to Alderaan, but have their memories wiped, Yoda and Obi-Wan go into hiding, and everything gets set up for Episode IV. I only wonder if they're going to refer to Han Solo, Chewbacca, or the Millenium falcon's history in any way.

5. Obi-Wan seems clueless when he goes to Yoda about the missing planet mystery. Personally I don't think he's really that dense. I believe Obi-Wan recognized what must've happened and realized the true significance of it, and he was just using an obtuse method to inform Yoda of what he discovered.

6. Someone wondered if the armies in IV-VI were clones, and why they weren't as kick-*** as in this episode. Well, the clones in this episode are no more than the nucleus of an army really. When you look at an Empire/Federation the size of a galaxy, then a million-man army is pretty puny. Besides, I get the feeling that the clone army gets pretty much wiped out during the clone wars. I think the stormtroopers we find in IV-VI are regular human troops, and not these specially made clones. I like the way the armor and ships were reminiscent of the Empire's later designs though.


All-in-all I thought this movie was excellent. Ever since Ep.I came out, I had a feeling Lucas was just laying the foundation for better things to come. And it looks like I was right. I groaned any time they brought up the luvy-duvy stuff, partly because it was just so heavy-handed, but mostly just because I can't stand love stories. But I just loved the political machinations and action sequences, even if some of it was a bit unbelievable at times. One complaint I have, which actually started last episode, is that there are just too many darned aliens now. How many thousands of different types does he need populating this galaxy? And many of them are not really very believable from an evolutionary point of view, or just plain impossible, like Wattou. But that's just a nit-pick.

Just like Phil, I'm really looking forward to seeing Episode III now.

Sum0
2002-Aug-11, 09:51 PM
This thread made me think... does anyone else feel that the Jedi... well, suck now? Luke, in episodes 4-6 could concivably (can't spell) easily defeat an whole army of stormtroopers. They're nowhere close to his fighting ability. Now, in AOTC, Windu (He's Samuel L. Jackson, people!) gets his word deleted by The Bad Astronomer nearly kicked by a mere bounty hunter? OK, Jango Fett is a much better fighter than a stormtrooper ("Only Imperial soldiers have that kind of accuracy" - yeah, right), but surely Windu, arguably the best warrior Jedi (Not that Yoda isn't very good, but... /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) could just Force Push him to the ground and decapitate him in a matter of seconds? Not to mention the fact that the Jedi get defeated by a bunch of droids. I thought the Jedi were literally superhuman, not just ordinary soldiers with fancy weapons! I suppose the Old Republic rated quantity over quality, seeing as in the books (set in New Republic times) Luke seems to be able to do all the Jedi responsibilities by himself...

_________________
"I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sum0 on 2002-08-11 17:53 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Bad Astronomer on 2002-08-11 18:17 ]</font>

Chuck
2002-Aug-11, 10:22 PM
Maybe there's just so much force to go around. More Jedi mean less force for each.

2002-Aug-13, 03:40 PM
On 2002-05-20 23:28, The Bad Astronomer wrote:


On 2002-05-20 20:58, Mr. X wrote:
Methinks Padme will have the babies, give one on Alderaan, the other to Owen and Beru Lars, is going to be captured and killed by the infamous Dooku

I was thinking about this. Anakin will need to be very angry to fall to the dark side, so I suspect he will actually see Dooku kill Padme (and we know she has to die). He may even be partially responsible, giving him overwhelming guilt as well.

This was never established in the movies, but perhaps Luke and Leia are twins? Anakin wouldn't be at the birth, then, and she doesn't tell him she's having two babies. Vader knew Luke was his son, but was unaware of Leia.

Hmmm. I'm straying off-topic. Oh well, it's my board. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

2002-Aug-13, 03:46 PM
BA, I think it mightbe metioned somewhere that they are twins... wait a second... that OFFICIAL star wars website gives away a huge part of the whole damn plot! Look:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It was common knowledge throughout the court that Leia was adopted into the Royal Family. What wasn't common knowledge was that Leia was born to Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi pupil who succumbed to the dark side and became Darth Vader. She was one of a set of twins, born in secrecy and protected from Vader and the Emperor. The Jedi hero and general, Obi-Wan Kenobi, secretly transported Leia and her mother to the planet Alderaan, where she was to be raised by Kenobi's friend Bail Organa. The boy, Luke, was taken to the distant world of Tatooine. Leia has few memories of her true mother, Padmé Amidala. All that Leia can recall is that she was beautiful, but sad.

You may hve missed it but Bail Organa appears in the movie, he was the Jimmy Smitts character in the blue robes standing on the balcony standing behind the future Emperor as the transports take off of Coruscant.

Also the oficial novels firmly establish that luke and leia are twins.

2002-Aug-13, 03:51 PM
On 2002-05-21 15:40, SpacedOut wrote:


On 2002-05-21 15:04, Aodoi wrote:

Somehow the Jedi in this film came across as so incompetent to me that wiping them out would hardly be difficult.



The Jedi’s abilities are supposedly being diminished by Palpatine – in one scene Windu and Yoda are actually discussing if they should reveal that fact to the senate.

There are some continuity errors in the movie – mostly within its self, while I agree the scenes between Anakin and Padme are painful to watch, especially the “picnic” – Lucas had to put something like them in the movie in order to maintain continuity with “Return” so Luke can “see the good in him” and turn him away from the Dark Side.

As for continuity between the books and movies – I don’t think Lucas really cares if he doesn’t match with the books – one example is that Dooku pulls the Death Star schematics to take to Palpatine. This completely negates one of the main story lines in the Jedi Academy series. I think he is more interested in making all the movies fit together.

One unanswered question – why doesn’t Obi-Wan recognize 3-PO and R2-D2 in Episode IV. I’ve wanted the answer to that since I saw Episode I.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SpacedOut on 2002-05-21 15:41 ]</font>





UHHH Obiwan was lying?

informant
2002-Aug-13, 04:55 PM
It's been known to happen. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Sum0
2002-Aug-13, 09:03 PM
Well, according to the slightly scary site at http://www.theforce.net/swtc/preq/tpmcont.html, basically...
a) Kenobi never was really in any contact with the droids (so he's likely to forget about them, and besides, he doesn't own them anyway)
b) he's in hiding - he can't really go around saying "Oh yeah, I spent a long time with those droids who worked for the Rebel Alliance!" in front of everyone. The Imperials might get suspicious, y'know? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

More important - why doesn't Vader show any emotion when meeting C3P0 at Cloud City? Actually, if you look closely you can see a tear or two rolling down his cheek...

SeanF
2002-Aug-14, 01:26 PM
On 2002-08-13 17:03, Sum0 wrote:

More important - why doesn't Vader show any emotion when meeting C3P0 at Cloud City? Actually, if you look closely you can see a tear or two rolling down his cheek...


Well, I don't know that Vader and 3PO ever saw each other at Cloud City . . . didn't 3P0 get blasted by the stormtroopers before the group met up with Vader?

What I want to know, though, is why Owen Lars didn't recognize C-3P0 when he bought him from the Jawas! "Gee, this protocol droid has the same name and voice as that droid my step-mother had 20 years ago before I adopted my step-brother's kid . . . oh, well, I guess I'll buy him anyway!"

Maybe it'll be explained somehow in Episode III . . . does Owen get his memory wiped along with 3P0 and R2? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

David Hall
2002-Aug-14, 01:55 PM
On 2002-08-14 09:26, SeanF wrote:

Well, I don't know that Vader and 3PO ever saw each other at Cloud City . . . didn't 3P0 get blasted by the stormtroopers before the group met up with Vader?


Actually, they were all together in the carbonite freezing room, with the partially-repaired 3PO strapped to Chewbacca's back. Of course, it was dark, and 3PO was not in best condition, and was most of the time facing away from Vader, and it had been something like 30 years, and Anakin's personality had been almost completely sublimated by the Vader personality, and Vader had a lot of other things on his mind at the moment, and...and..., well, you get the idea. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

SeanF
2002-Aug-14, 04:22 PM
On 2002-08-14 09:55, David Hall wrote:

Actually, they were all together in the carbonite freezing room, with the partially-repaired 3PO strapped to Chewbacca's back.


I stand corrected.

(As 3P0 said after R2 completed repairing him) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Sum0
2002-Aug-15, 10:50 AM
Well, 3P0 droids are common in the Star Wars universe, so you wouldn't think that if you saw one it was the same one as you saw several years ago. In other words, if you used to own a green Ford Mondeo, and several years later you saw a green Ford Mondeo, it's almost certainly not the same car, is it?

Also, the droids probably won't get wiped for reasons of audience sympathy. If Luke suddenly got amnesia at the end of episode 4, he wouldn't be the same person in episode 5, and you'd feel as if you didn't know him. Similarly, if the droids get wiped, then it'd be a new person, so to speak, in the original trilogy. They might get a partial memory wipe, which wouldn't be so bad (the personality would remain). Besides, Lucas has always said the trilogy is really being told from the point of view of the droids.

btw, Ronin - great name!

_________________
"I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sum0 on 2002-08-15 06:51 ]</font>

kucharek
2002-Aug-15, 11:13 AM
On 2002-08-15 06:50, Sum0 wrote:
btw, Ronin - great name!

A Ronin was a masterless and unemployed samurai, some kind of outcast in the old japanese society. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

Harald

SeanF
2002-Aug-15, 01:29 PM
On 2002-08-15 06:50, Sum0 wrote:
Well, 3P0 droids are common in the Star Wars universe, so you wouldn't think that if you saw one it was the same one as you saw several years ago. In other words, if you used to own a green Ford Mondeo, and several years later you saw a green Ford Mondeo, it's almost certainly not the same car, is it?

Hey, how'd you know I used to own a Mondeo?!

Just kidding.

If my Mondeo had a name, a voice, and a personality and I later came across an old Mondeo with the same name, voice, and personality, I would have to at least be suspicious . . .



Also, the droids probably won't get wiped for reasons of audience sympathy. If Luke suddenly got amnesia at the end of episode 4, he wouldn't be the same person in episode 5, and you'd feel as if you didn't know him. Similarly, if the droids get wiped, then it'd be a new person, so to speak, in the original trilogy. They might get a partial memory wipe, which wouldn't be so bad (the personality would remain). Besides, Lucas has always said the trilogy is really being told from the point of view of the droids.



Agreed. It wouldn't be necessary to wipe R2's memory at all, since we don't really know who or what he remembers anyway, but I simply don't believe that 3P0 could remember being built by Anakin Skywalker on Tatooine and still "fake" his ignorance in Episodes IV-VI. Those specific memories, at least, need to be wiped.

David Hall
2002-Aug-15, 01:48 PM
On 2002-08-15 06:50, Sum0 wrote:

Similarly, if the droids get wiped, then it'd be a new person, so to speak, in the original trilogy. They might get a partial memory wipe, which wouldn't be so bad (the personality would remain).

I don't think a memory wipe is the same as a personality wipe. Unlike humans, I would think that a droid's personality is basically hard-wired, and therefore pretty much independent of the memories they carry. Having the 2 droids memories cleared is the only logical way to explain the discrepancy between the two trilogies.

<hr width=50%>

"Ronin" has an interesting modern meaning. It's now used to refer to a person who hasn't yet managed to pass the difficult university entrance exams. Sometimes it takes a year or two of trying before a person can get into university, so they are referred to as "masterless" during this period.

Sum0
2002-Aug-16, 11:55 AM
This is strangely fitting for a Star Wars discussion, seeing as Ronin were a important part of many Akira Kurosawa films, which later inspired Star Wars...