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R.A.F.
2004-Aug-10, 07:34 PM
While over at the Universe Today forum, I found this (http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/10/tunguska.shtml) being discussed and thought that it might be of interest to folks here.

N C More
2004-Aug-10, 08:01 PM
It would be really outstanding if this were true...BUT (notice that's a big "but") this is the Russian news media we're talking about here and the word "tabloid" comes quickly to my mind. I wish it were true but I don't think so... :(

jaydeehess
2004-Aug-10, 08:07 PM
The Tunguska event was an aerial explosion that occurred near the Tunguska River in Siberia on June 30, 1908. The blast felled an estimated 60 million trees over 2,150 square kilometres. On this day, local residents observed a huge fireball, almost as bright as the Sun, moving across the sky. A few minutes later, there was a flash that lit up half of the sky, followed by a shock wave that knocked people off their feet and broke windows up to 400 miles away.


Area=pi X r^2
2150=pi X r^
r=26 km radius of downed trees but the blast wave was knocking people over 400 miles away????? One would think that if a blast was knocking people over 400 miles away that the area of downed trees would be far greater OR that if it knocked down trees in 2159 sq.Km that it would not be enough to knock over people 400 miles away!!!!!!!

a 10-15 megaton blast sounds about right to have a 26 Km radius of devastation.

I also wonder about the mix of Imperial and metric measurements.

The story also suggests that the object was a billion tons and that aliens interceeded to limit the devastation. However it gives absolutly no evidence to support that claim.

Just for comparison the combined weight of the two World trade towers was more than 1.5 million tons. So the exploding object was supposedly 660 times as massive as the two towers.

R.A.F.
2004-Aug-10, 08:27 PM
The story also suggests that the object was a billion tons and that aliens interceeded to limit the devastation. However it gives absolutly no evidence to support that claim.

Yeah, they sure seemed to have concluded what they were going to find almost before they even "found" it. :)

Parrothead
2004-Aug-10, 10:38 PM
I could have sworn the "theory" for the Tunguska event was a piece of a comet caused the devastation or did I miss something along the way?

N C More
2004-Aug-10, 11:06 PM
Well look here (http://www.randi.org/jr/073004an.html#6) what James Randi had to say about this expedition!

Here's a nice snip:


Mr. Labvin, scientists don't state their conclusions in advance. I'm confident that your report will find that this was an extraterrestrial space ship, because that's what you're looking for, and if a camper left a can-opener behind, it will surely be on sale via E-bay in the near future, offered as an example of advanced and exotic technology from beyond the stars.

soupdragon2
2004-Aug-10, 11:50 PM
It seems it was a Tesla death-ray after all. #-o

http://www.frank.germano.com/tunguska.htm

R.A.F.
2004-Aug-11, 12:31 AM
Well look here (http://www.randi.org/jr/073004an.html#6) what James Randi had to say about this expedition!

Thanks, N C for that link...that's the Randi commentary I missed when I was gone for a week.

...And it turns out I was right! These "scientists" knew exactly what they were looking for, and by golly, they "found" it!! Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy...sheese.

jaydeehess
2004-Aug-11, 03:27 AM
It seems it was a Tesla death-ray after all

I read most of the page, there is this disclaimer.


The evidence is only circumstantial. Perhaps Tesla never did achieve wireless power transmission through the earth. Maybe he made a mistake in interpreting the results of his radio tests in Colorado Springs and really saw a low frequency phenomenon, Schumann oscillations, and not an effect engineers believe a scientific impossibility. Perhaps the mental stress he suffered caused him to retreat into a fantasy world from which he would send out preposterous claims to reporters who gathered for his yearly pronouncements on his birthday. Maybe the atomic bomb size explosion in Siberia near the turn of the century was the result of a meteorite nobody saw fall.

Or, perhaps, Nikola Tesla did shake the world in a way that has been kept secret for over 85 years


Another secret kept from the world for a long time

I wonder why the US gov't spent so much time and money developing the atomic bomb with the Manhattan Project when all they needed to defeat both Germany and Japan was to dust off the designs for this weapon. I am sure that if the technology available in 1908 was not quite up to the task of aiming correctly (supposedly Tesla was aiming at the high Artic archepelago, Ellesmere Island to be exact, but overshot and took out the Tunguska forest instead) that the tech of the 1940's would have been.

The Genie seems to have made it's way back into the bottle. :roll:

beskeptical
2004-Aug-11, 08:19 AM
A google search for deer stone, Yuri Lavbin, and Siberian Public State Foundation wasn't very enlightening either.

The only "deer stones" seem to be the big stones in Ireland similar to Stone Henge structures. Yuri isn't there at all so you know he must be a well respected scientist. And the only thing close to a Siberian Public State Foundation refers to a library.

I'm also very suspicious of "chipped a piece of the object". Does that mean they left it there? No pictures? And, how big was this thing? It survived the blast intact?

I'm betting it's a money making scam. Wonder how long it will take to see pieces for sale on E-Bay?

skywalcore
2004-Aug-11, 05:11 PM
It would be really outstanding if this were true...BUT (notice that's a big "but") this is the Russian news media we're talking about here and the word "tabloid" comes quickly to my mind. I wish it were true but I don't think so... :(

didn't the russian news also release that news about "Real Screams and Moans from Hell" were recorded from an active volcano which led to a lot of people saying "now we have proof there is a hell.

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Aug-12, 05:08 PM
Just a heads-up-- I will probably have a quotation or two in an article about this in space.com later today. When the article goes online I'll link to it.

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Aug-12, 07:12 PM
The space.com article is up (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/tunguska_event_040812.html).

SciFi Chick
2004-Aug-12, 07:26 PM
The space.com article is up (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/tunguska_event_040812.html).

Excellent summation of what must be done. :)

R.A.F.
2004-Aug-12, 07:31 PM
Phil...FANTASTIC!

Man made space debris...I hadn't considered that :oops:
...thanks. :)

Demigrog
2004-Aug-12, 08:43 PM
Makes me wonder how many members of the "Tunguska Space Phenomenon foundation" are also in the Tunguska River Area Chamber of Commerce. :) I wouldn't blame them for cashing in any more than I do the residents of Roswell, NM of course.

A quick search for the supposed expedition leader, Yuri Labvin, yeilds little beyond this: http://lists.topica.com/lists/tunguska/read/message.html?mid=809603556&sort=d&start=743

Apparently he has a small Tunguska museum in the closest major city (close being a very relative term in Siberia). I wonder if the paucity of information is because of the language barrier (the romanization of his name, perhaps?), or simply lack of internet connectivity in Siberia?

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Aug-12, 09:26 PM
David Morrison (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guests/761.html) (also here (http://impact.arc.nasa.gov)) just emailed me that he will be on Coast to Coast AM tonight, though it's not yet on the website (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2004/08/12.html). That oughta be fun.

Oh, and Hoagland will be on tomorrow night. Ho hum.

beskeptical
2004-Aug-12, 09:30 PM
Well, hey...Now you have the new Russian version of Hoagland. :D

kucharek
2004-Aug-13, 07:20 AM
The best theory at the moment, if they really found something, is, that it is debris from the fifth Vostok test flight. It failed nd came down some 3500 miles downrange in the Tunguska area.

Harald

Maksutov
2004-Aug-13, 11:58 AM
Hopefully this (from the space.com article) is an accurate quote, because I found it to be very logical:


"They are going to try to prove their preconceived ideas. That's not science, that's religion.

Good one, Phil!

=D>

iantresman
2004-Aug-13, 12:14 PM
I could have sworn the "theory" for the Tunguska event was a piece of a comet caused the devastation or did I miss something along the way?

Surely the evidence for a comet is the same as that for a UFO and a "small black hole". Zilch.

Just because a comet is more plausible than a UFO, or whatever, doesn't make it more scientific?

Regards,
Ian Tresman

kucharek
2004-Aug-13, 12:30 PM
Anyone speaks Russian here?

http://www.newsru.com/russia/13Aug2004/meteorit.html#

These are said to be pictures of the artifacts.

Harald

[Edited to change German into English. First time language mixup when posting to the BABB. Getting old... :oops: ]

TriangleMan
2004-Aug-13, 01:12 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event) does a pretty good job discussing the various theories surrounding the Tunguska event.

kucharek
2004-Aug-13, 01:32 PM
German news-magazine SPIEGEL quotes the BA from his space.com interview:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltraum/0,1518,312983,00.html

Pil Plait? :o

Glom
2004-Aug-13, 01:37 PM
Very to the point. I see all these years as the admin of a vibrant web board has given you iron.

Maksutov
2004-Aug-13, 02:00 PM
German news-magazine SPIEGEL quotes the BA from his space.com interview:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltraum/0,1518,312983,00.html

Pil Plait? :o

Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion"

Sie haben Recht!

(Eine bittere "Pil" für einiges, möglicherweise?)

8)

SciFi Chick
2004-Aug-13, 02:02 PM
German news-magazine SPIEGEL quotes the BA from his space.com interview:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltraum/0,1518,312983,00.html

Pil Plait? :o

Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion"

Sie haben Recht!

(Eine bittere "Pil" für einiges, möglicherweise?)

8)

My first semester of German starts September 1. I wonder if I'll be able to read this by Christmas. 8)

kucharek
2004-Aug-13, 02:15 PM
My first semester of German starts September 1. I wonder if I'll be able to read this by Christmas. 8)

September 1 is a good date for starting to learn German. We started World War II on that day. :o

Amadeus
2004-Aug-13, 02:43 PM
Anyone speaks Russian here?

http://www.newsru.com/russia/13Aug2004/meteorit.html#

These are said to be pictures of the artifacts.

Harald

[Edited to change German into English. First time language mixup when posting to the BABB. Getting old... :oops: ]

Tried this out on babel fish but it couldn't translate. :(
It always seems to have trouble with Russian.

PeterFab
2004-Aug-13, 04:05 PM
Funny coincidence. I picked up my weekly load of comic books today. One of them was 'Ultimate Nightmare'.
It deals with the Tunguska Event, and seem to have an alien spaceship as the cause.
I think the book went on sale last week in the States.

kucharek
2004-Aug-13, 04:10 PM
One of the first novels by Stanislav Lem also deals with the possibility that the Tunguska event was caused by a crashing spaceship - from Venus.

Amadeus
2004-Aug-13, 04:17 PM
German news-magazine SPIEGEL quotes the BA from his space.com interview:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltraum/0,1518,312983,00.html

Pil Plait? :o

Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion"

Sie haben Recht!

(Eine bittere "Pil" für einiges, möglicherweise?)

8)


Kunst ist immer mein erstes religon gewesen.

Getrunken auf einer Freitag Nacht an zweiter Stelle erhalten.
Diese Nacht ist die Nacht! 8)

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Aug-13, 04:33 PM
Wow, I didn't know I spoke German so well!

Also, James Oberg sent me another note. This website (http://www.physorg.com/news819.html) has run an image that implies they have pictures of the metallic object claimed be ET from the expedition, but in fact is an older image (probably fake, IMO) which can be found here (http://www.unexplainable.net/cases/russian/). As if there weren't enough nonsense to go around already in this story.

Chip
2004-Aug-13, 06:34 PM
I recall seeing pictures years ago (from a different, legitimate Russian expedition,) of tiny spheres (http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/Tunfig10.GIF) of "meteoritic matter" discovered at the Tunguska site. The sphere pictures have sometimes turned up on UFO TV shows as mysterious alien artifacts, though their origin certainly is not.

The image comes from this long report (http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/tungmet.html) done in 1962 at the Tenth Conference on Meteorites in Russia. This is a "preliminary report" but the "General Results" section at the bottom of the page seems pretty sound.

jaydeehess
2004-Aug-13, 06:53 PM
Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion

Just a guess "That is like witchcraft, which is religion" ??????????


Just because a comet is more plausible than a UFO, or whatever, doesn't make it more scientific

Actually, by definition a more plausible explanation is more scientific. It represents an educated guess rather than calling upon an unknown force or being which is closer to magic than science.

Hyperkubus
2004-Aug-13, 06:58 PM
According to the article in the Spiegel, the Russian expedition team claim they found evidence that suggests that an alien space ship collided with the asteroid, thus saving mankind from extinction.

I had to smile at that, envisioning the alien crew, masters over incredibly advanced technology, caught totally off guard by an asteroid big enough to send the higher life-forms on earth into doom. In a selfless feat they manouver their craft straight into the asteroid just seconds before it can hit the ground and wreak havoc.

You can't say our saviors didn't have a sense for the dramatic! :roll:

xbck1
2004-Aug-13, 07:24 PM
I had to smile at that, envisioning the alien crew, masters over incredibly advanced technology, caught totally off guard by an asteroid big enough to send the higher life-forms on earth into doom. In a selfless feat they manouver their craft straight into the asteroid just seconds before it can hit the ground and wreak havoc.You know what it actually was, don't you? It was two alien spaceships. The police were chasing after some other aliens who'd escaped in a stolen flying saucer. Unfortunately, the cops slammed into them just a bit too hard and...

My, if they had stuff like that on TV shows like World's Scariest Police Chases, I might be inclined to watch.


Anyways. Did anybody else think it was rather odd that the Newsru link didn't show anything except some people hiking, a big rock, a lady in some sort of lab, and a couple a metal rods? What was I supposed to be looking at?

gritmonger
2004-Aug-13, 07:33 PM
Anyways. Did anybody else think it was rather odd that the Newsru link didn't show anything except some people hiking, a big rock, a lady in some sort of lab, and a couple a metal rods? What was I supposed to be looking at?


ALIEN TECHNOLOGY! Don't you get it? Aluminum tubing is beyond the capability of today's manufacturing, and ONLY could have come from space - rather than the hardware store - down the street - that sells it for $1.99 for ten feet - oh - nevermind!

mopc
2004-Aug-13, 07:42 PM
Anyone speaks Russian here?

http://www.newsru.com/russia/13Aug2004/meteorit.html#

These are said to be pictures of the artifacts.

Harald

[Edited to change German into English. First time language mixup when posting to the BABB. Getting old... :oops: ]

I speak Russian. The article itself says the same as most other articles, although in much more detail. My attention was caught by the sixth photo, which shows a disc-like object semi-burried in the ground, some 5m diameter. The caption however says:


Помимо странных обломков участники экспедиции нашли так называемый "олень-камень",

>Aside frim strange debris, the participants in the expedition found the so-called "deer-stone",

неоднократно упоминаемый в воспоминаниях очевидцев падения Тунгусского метеорита, и доставили его осколок весом около 50 кг для экспресс-анализа в Красноярск

>repeatedly mentioned in the recollections of the eye witnesses of the fall of the Tungusk meteorite, and delivered its pieces weighing some 50kg for quick analysis in Krasnoyarsk

I failed to comprehend what is deer-stones, if my translation is correct.

Glom
2004-Aug-13, 07:50 PM
Where did you get the text?

gzhpcu
2004-Aug-13, 08:21 PM
In regards to "deer stone":

In Mongolian folklore: Art in Mongolia began with the impressions and expressions of feelings on rock. The deer stone can be divided into three sections representing the three worlds of ancient Central Asian mythology: the sky, earth and the underworld. The top part of the stone shows the sun and the moon, representing the sky; the center shows a deer or other hoofed animal representing the world of the living whereas the bottom part shows bows and arrows, swords and sometimes deities representing the underworld. The deer, which is usually represented in silhouette with a long snout is an important symbol for Mongolians, and is believed to be able to carry the spirit of the dead to the next life.

The discovery of a mysterious boulder in the epicentre of the Tunguska catastrophe was discovered resembling a deer stone.

N C More
2004-Aug-13, 08:22 PM
Well, this (http://www.mysteriousearth.com/stuff/archives/000031.html) is a "deer stone", unless it has some other meaning?

pghnative
2004-Aug-13, 08:45 PM
From the original link:
“I am fully confident and I can make an official statement that we were saved by some forces of a superior civilization,” the scientist said. “They exploded this enormous meteorite that headed towards us with enormous speed,” he said. Now this great object that caused the meteorite to explode is found at last. We will continue our research, he said.

Has anyone bothered to tell the researchers that exploding the meteorite (meteor?) at the last second wouldn't save anyone, since the total energy released is the same? (Slightly more, actually, since the aliens version of TNT added a few Kcal's to the whole system.)

Kesh
2004-Aug-13, 08:52 PM
Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion

Just a guess "That is like witchcraft, which is religion" ??????????

"Keine" means "not." I had to look up "Wissenschaft", but the line roughly translates as: "That is not Science, that is Religion."

I couldn't get past German 103 in college, but at least it helps a little. :-?

jaydeehess
2004-Aug-13, 11:51 PM
I watched two "Speak German" programs on educational TV :D

gritmonger wrote:

ALIEN TECHNOLOGY! Don't you get it? Aluminum tubing is beyond the capability of today's manufacturing, and ONLY could have come from space - rather than the hardware store - down the street - that sells it for $1.99 for ten feet - oh - nevermind!

My old tent disentegrated but I still have the ET tech aluminum frame. How much do you think I could get for it?

gzhpcu
2004-Aug-14, 03:55 AM
German news-magazine SPIEGEL quotes the BA from his space.com interview:

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/weltraum/0,1518,312983,00.html

Pil Plait? :o

Hinsichtlich "Das ist keine Wissenschaft, das ist Religion"

Sie haben Recht!

(Eine bittere "Pil" für einiges, möglicherweise?)

8)

Das mag wohl alles stimmen, aber es scheint mir dass für viele die Wissenschaft zur Religion geworden ist.... :D

Ian Goddard
2004-Aug-15, 02:28 AM
About the area where the alleged alien artifact was found, MSNBC reports (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5686713/): "other space experts have pointed out that the region is a drop zone for discarded rocket stages launched into space from Russia’s Baikonur base, and in fact was the crash site of one prototype manned space capsule at the very dawn of the space age."

It might also be worth noting that some reports (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/12543876) refer to the found object as "a rock" and others (http://www.physorg.com/news819.html) as "a large block made with metal." Maybe it's a metallic meteorite (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/mccanney/misc.html#meteorites) if not Russian space junk.

N C More
2004-Aug-15, 12:36 PM
...And maybe, just maybe...It's one of these! (http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameShotId%2C5635/gameId%2C365). Fire Away!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

ExpErdMann
2004-Aug-15, 07:05 PM
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_event) does a pretty good job discussing the various theories surrounding the Tunguska event.

Not bad, but they missed the best explanation of Tunguska, in my opinion. Here is something I posted from an earlier thread on the same topic:


Another explanation of the Tunguska event has been published, which may be better than the comet one (Wolfgang Kundt, Current Science, v. 81, n. 4, 399-407, 2001). Kundt argues that the event was caused by the volcanic ejection of "some 10 Mt of natural gas". He thinks the event was a modern-day formation of a kimberlite.

There is a lot of historical detail in the paper, and he uses this to support his argument. For example, one of the first scientists into the area was Leonid Kulik, who was also hoping to find meteoric nickel and iron. His team drained the 'Suslov' crater lake, only to find an intact tree stump at the bottom. This ruled out an impactor, since the stump should have been destroyed. There are other bits of evidence like this one. For example, he says the 'mystery clouds' seen after the explosion may have been rising blobs of natural gas.

He writes: "A kimberlite interpretation of the Tunguska catastrophe is tempting. ... kimberlite diatremes are narrow funnels, growing from a few metres across at a kilometre's depth to a dome-shaped tuff ring at the top, of diameter some kilometre, and occasionally enclosing a crater lake (reminiscent of the cauldron). ... An explosive injection from great depth is indicated, driven by volatiles".

The article is pretty interesting. There is a detailed map of the site at the time of the event, complete with the positions of various observers (and their fates!).

Tha_Pig
2004-Aug-16, 12:05 AM
The best "explanation" for the mystery of what really happened at Tunguska was on a Russian science fiction story. In the future, Scientifics invented time travel and they did the first experiment to send a living organism a century into the past. They used a cat as test subject. Due to some miscalculations, the poor feline traveled back in time, but was somehow "reversed" in the process and turn to antimatter. When the cat materialized (antimaterialized?) over Siberia, it exploded with the results we all know.

Of course, this is just a humorous fiction, but it can explain the absence of any debris on the site.

jaydeehess
2004-Aug-16, 02:45 AM
Kundt argues that the event was caused by the volcanic ejection of "some 10 Mt of natural gas

Isn't natural has denser than our atmospheric mix of gases and therefore the explosion should have occured at ground level along with much greater evidence of burning and a crater?

Morrolan
2004-Aug-16, 07:55 AM
what interests me is that they are able to 'chip' a piece off an object that apparently was hard enough to withstand a multi-megaton kinetic impact... 8-[ some tools they must've had...

ExpErdMann
2004-Aug-16, 03:50 PM
Kundt argues that the event was caused by the volcanic ejection of "some 10 Mt of natural gas

Isn't natural has denser than our atmospheric mix of gases and therefore the explosion should have occured at ground level along with much greater evidence of burning and a crater?

There need not have been combustion of the gas. The damage was caused by the high ejection velocities.