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View Full Version : The Air Force And I: Just So Folks Know.



BigDon
2012-Mar-10, 02:25 AM
Now just so people know the WHOLE story about my opinion of the Air Force.

I talk a lot of long *poop* about the Air Force but I haven't meant a lick of it since the first Gulf War.

The reason why I feel I can talk smack in the first place was because my squadron absolutely freakin' mauled the Air Force in every single war game excercise we went up against them in.

Navy F-14's vs. Air Force F-15's in most cases.

The very best the Air force had to offer, the forward squadrons out of Japan would die before us at a rate of four to one. State side was a constistant seven to one and Air Force reservists squadrons was twelve to one.

If any of you Zoomies want to check my math I was in VF-211 between '79 and '83. Fleet average on missile hits was 45%, my outfit averaged 103%, due to extra credit assignments, including downing an SR-71.

And then I got enough rank and rate to accompany the away team that went to Nellis Air Force Base during these excercises and was sort of amazed at how much Air Force ground crews seemed like postal workers.

Their barracks had house keepers. As in maid service.

When one of their Language groundcrew got blown down by jet exhaust, *the pilot* got in trouble! Actually saw that happen, eyes on, twice in a week! Both times I saw it was going to happen a full minute before it did because both the ground crew guys were OBVIOUSLY not paying attention. We looked at that like arresting somebody because their teeth cut up your knuckles. Seriously guys, your on a freakin' flightline, pull your head out and pay attention! You're on a land based runway for God's Sake! I had to deal with 50 plus turning combat aircraft crammed into five acres of flightdeck!


So that start is pretty much why I make fun of the Air Force. And used to mean it.

Tensor
2012-Mar-10, 03:21 AM
The reason why I feel I can talk smack in the first place was because my squadron absolutely freakin' mauled the Air Force in every single war game excercise we went up against them in.

Navy F-14's vs. Air Force F-15's in most cases.

The very best the Air force had to offer, the forward squadrons out of Japan would die before us at a rate of four to one. State side was a constistant seven to one and Air Force reservists squadrons was twelve to one.

If any of you Zoomies want to check my math I was in VF-211 between '79 and '83. Fleet average on missile hits was 45%, my outfit averaged 103%, due to extra credit assignments, including downing an SR-71.

ahhhhhh, Don, I don't doubt your math, but you think equipment might have something to do with that? Which missiles were your guys using? I mean, there is no comparison between the AIM-54s Phoenix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix) and the AIM-7 Sparrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow). Just look at the range, 100 miles for the Phoenix compared to a max of 31 for the Sparrow. Now, if they were using the Sparrows, you have a better point, except for.... Speaking of equipment, you don't think the AWG-9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWG-9_radar) was a bit better than the APG 63 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APG-63_and_APG-70_radars) on the Eagles? For instance, the AWG-9 has a much longer range, can track more targets, and can guide multiple inflight missiles, and can be in search mode, while still providing targeting mode for the missiles (the newer versions of the APG-63 or it's upgraded versions can now do this, I believe). Oh, then there's that RiO, for a second set of eyes, not to mention the RIO doing all the radar, and ECM stuff for the pilot. Not saying your pilots aren't good, but I think there were some advantages that you're glossing over, based mostly that the aircraft were designed for different missions. When you can't afford to miss, because your landing area will be a few thousand feet under water, yeah, you better have some equipment that doesn't miss.


And then I got enough rank and rate to accompany the away team that went to Nellis Air Force Base during these excercises and was sort of amazed at how much Air Force ground crews seemed like postal workers.

Hey, it was good training for jobs after leaving the military.


Their barracks had house keepers. As in maid service.

Yeah, not all of them did. I know I didn't have any maids, in any of the various barracks I stayed in, until I got to NAS Keflavik in 1989.


When one of their dumbs ground crew

snip...

into five acres of flightdeck!

So that start is pretty much why I make fun of the Air Force. And used to mean it.

You want me to go over some of the stories a couple of your Chiefs(plain old, Senior, or Master) used to tell us Air Force types about some of your ground crews during some late night drinking sessions?

Jim
2012-Mar-10, 04:00 AM
You want me to go over some of the stories a couple of your Chiefs(plain old, Senior, or Master) used to tell us Air Force types about some of your ground crews during some late night drinking sessions?

Yes, please.

Tensor
2012-Mar-10, 05:04 AM
Yes, please.

Ok, a quick one for now. I try to more up tomorrow. A guy working on the F-14 Threat warning system was having trouble removing one of the system receivers Well, he had trouble getting the connector to one of the antennae cables off, as the space to do this was small. So, he thought it would speed things up, if he would just cut the connector off of the cable. One problem was these were "CRITICAL LENGTH" cables. For those who don't know, threat warning systems determine the direction to threat radar by comparing the strength of the signal received by each antennae(usually four). The receiver does this by knowing the expected loss each signal should have due to the length of the cable. If you cut the cable, you have to replace the entire cable, as that changes the loss through the cable. Which entails removing lots of panels, removing many, many clamps (many in hard to reach locations), removing the cable, installing the new cable, installing all those clamps, and then installing all those panels. This takes the aircraft out of service for a minimum of 2-3 days and usually 4-5 days. In this case, the Chief says it took about 8 days, as he had the person who cut the cable, do the entire replacement of the cable by himself.

BigDon
2012-Mar-10, 05:27 AM
Sorry about the lanquage foul Pzk.

BigDon
2012-Mar-10, 05:47 AM
Darn!

I lost a large post!

I'm so disappointed.

grapes
2012-Mar-10, 09:29 AM
You're disappointed? I'm devastated! Can't we call out the Air Force, or something?

BigDon
2012-Mar-10, 03:06 PM
The aircrews were top notch Tens.

25% Topgun grads

25% former Topgun instructors

25% best and brighest of the rest

25% newbs riding one hell of a learning curve.

That setup takes you a heck of a lot farther. As in the outcome probably wouldn't have been much different if the two sides traded aircraft.

publiusr
2012-Mar-10, 06:35 PM
The most amusing bit of rivalry was between B-52 pilots and the Thud drivers, whose entire campaign wasn't worth one sortie during ARC LIGHT and LINEBACKER. Then too there was a statement by Bernie Shriver who didn't cotton to Bob Truax, since he was USN.

Typical of the Air Force:
"The Soviet Union is our 'adversary'--our ENEMY is the Navy."

Tensor
2012-Mar-10, 06:44 PM
The aircrews were top notch Tens.

25% Topgun grads

25% former Topgun instructors

25% best and brighest of the rest

25% newbs riding one hell of a learning curve.

That setup takes you a heck of a lot farther. As in the outcome probably wouldn't have been much different if the two sides traded aircraft.

While that may be true, those breakouts have much more experience and training than the forward Air Force squadrons would consist of. And, I'm willing to bet that if you organized a competition between 25% Fighter Weapons School Grads, 25% Fighter Weapons School Instructors, 25% the best and brightest of the rest and 25% newbs, against the typical carrier deployed navy squadron, there's a pretty good chance you'd get the same results, reversed. Unless you're saying that is the composition of the typical carrier deployed fighter squadron.

And I still think that equipment would make a difference. The radar/Phoenix weapon system was just flat out better, by far, than anything ever put in a fighter.

Tensor
2012-Mar-10, 08:17 PM
Oh, and Don, don't take me too seriously. Think of it as normal inter-service "My service is better than yours". I've got nothing but respect for those guys on the decks of carriers.

swampyankee
2012-Mar-11, 12:26 AM
Typical of the Air Force:
"The Soviet Union is our 'adversary'--our ENEMY is the Navy."

Wars are rare events (well, at least they should be). Budget battles are daily.

korjik
2012-Mar-11, 04:42 PM
I am sure that you all had it horrible, what with your air conditioning, and your beds and your hot meals. It still takes a guy on the ground to finish the war tho. All you zoomies and squids are decoration without some soldiers to actually take out the bad guys.

Army all the way!

:D

korjik
2012-Mar-11, 04:49 PM
My opinion is the same as Don's. I was at Goodfellow Air Force Base for intel training back in 89. There, the Army lived in the barracks the Air Force condemned. I always suspected that it was because each room didnt have an individual bath. I also think I saw a formation of zoomies doing PT break into a run. Once. I think. They may have seen a spider, or a snake. It was West Texas.... :)

swampyankee
2012-Mar-11, 05:27 PM
Korjik, be nice. My brother was a combat controller in the USAF.

vonmazur
2012-Mar-13, 02:55 AM
I am sure that you all had it horrible, what with your air conditioning, and your beds and your hot meals. It still takes a guy on the ground to finish the war tho. All you zoomies and squids are decoration without some soldiers to actually take out the bad guys.

Army all the way!

:D

Me too!! Two tours in Nam with the Doggie Army....;)

Dale