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Caryn
2002-May-25, 11:24 AM
What would be the effect of 20 Hiroshima-size A bombs exploding simultaneously on the Indo-Pak border:

1) On the Arabian Sea area; How far would radiation reach: the Persian Gulf and Bay of Bengal, or further?

2) On the earth's orbit/inclination?

Karl
2002-May-25, 01:10 PM
On 2002-05-25 07:24, Caryn wrote:
What would be the effect of 20 Hiroshima-size A bombs exploding simultaneously on the Indo-Pak border:

1) On the Arabian Sea area; How far would radiation reach: the Persian Gulf and Bay of Bengal, or further?



Depends on the wind conditions, there are some good programs for projecting this which I'm sure are being run right now.



2) On the earth's orbit/inclination?

Nothing, that would only be 20 times 15 kilotons, and surface explosions of 15 megatons had no effect back when we were doing H-bomb testing.

Fix spelling

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Karl on 2002-05-25 09:12 ]</font>

Prince
2002-May-25, 01:33 PM
Just how stable is the Earth's inclination? The largest H bomb was the 50 Megaton Soviet "Tsar Bomba". How many of those would it need to start to make an impression on the 23 degrees, like in the film "The Day the Earth Caught Fire" and "Crack in the World"?

Of course the Geocentrists gloat that the Earth is not rotating and that it's the universe's rotation that is canted at 23 degrees, but even they admit that one day "the earth will stagger to and fro like a drunkard and will be moved like a frail hut...it will be shaken viloently and crumble away" (Isaiah 24), possibly as the result of just such atomic explosions.

Caryn
2002-May-25, 05:04 PM
Don't forget that unlike westerners who are afraid of death, the Muslim Pakis, like their PLO cousins, actually seek Koranic martyrdom for Allah, and the Hindu Indians really do believe absolutely that reincarnation, even into a cow or a worm, is a desirable fate, and they are keen to die & be reincarnated for the glory of Shiva, Brahma, Dikka and Kali! Didn't Oppenheimer at Trinty quote from a Hindu Ayurvedic text "We have become Death: the destroyer of Worlds!"?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-306865,00.html

Firefox
2002-May-25, 05:31 PM
Actually, Tsar Bomba, the Russian nuke detonated in Novaya Zemlya, was 57 megatons. It was scaled down from a 100-megaton device so it could be carried by a bomber. I had heard somewhere that a shockwave had circled the planet twice. What that means is beyond me, and is probably wrong.

As for that knocking Earth's tilt/rotation out of whack, what about the dino-killer? It produced an explosion in excess of 100 million megatons, and didn't produce even a blip in Earth's rotation, evidently. I doubt very seriously a handful of Hiroshima-sized nuclear weapons (no more than duds compared to our arsenal) could cause any significant effects.


Adam

Simon
2002-May-25, 08:19 PM
Mass of Earth, a la my college-freshman physics book: 5.98 x 10^24 kg.

That's rather a lot, you know. Add in gyroscopic stability, and it would take quite a bit of force to make any percievable change in the tilt.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Simon on 2002-05-25 16:19 ]</font>

Espritch
2002-May-26, 03:58 AM
Don't forget that unlike westerners who are afraid of death, the Muslim Pakis, like their PLO cousins, actually seek Koranic martyrdom for Allah, and the Hindu Indians really do believe absolutely that reincarnation, even into a cow or a worm, is a desirable fate, and they are keen to die & be reincarnated for the glory of Shiva, Brahma, Dikka and Kali!

Some of the more fanatical Muslims may indeed seek Martyrdumb, but as is the case with most religions, when push comes to shove, most "believers" are somewhat hypocritical on this point. There was an article in my local paper just this morning about Palistinian parents seeking counseling for their children because they didn't want them going off and getting themselves killed in the name of Allah. Curiously, some of these same parents indicated that they thought suicide bombers were a good weapon to use aginst Isreal. They just didn't think it was a good idea for "their" children (as I said, the religious tend to be just a tad hypocritical).

As far as Idians, while Hindus do believe in reincarnation, I've never heard any of them express any strong desire to get turned into a nuclear french fry for the sake of Kali or anyone else.

Back in the 80's, Sting wrote a Song, "Russians", in which he states that the only thing can save us from nuclear war "is if the Russians love their children too." I'm betting that both the Packistanis and the Indians love their children. So maybe cooler heads will prevail again and the worst will not come to pass.

beskeptical
2002-May-26, 03:59 AM
On 2002-05-25 13:04, Caryn wrote:
Don't forget that unlike westerners who are afraid of death, the Muslim Pakis, like their PLO cousins, actually seek Koranic martyrdom for Allah, and the Hindu Indians really do believe absolutely that reincarnation, even into a cow or a worm, is a desirable fate, and they are keen to die & be reincarnated for the glory of Shiva, Brahma, Dikka and Kali.

Clearly death has a different meaning to other cultures. I wouldn't use the term 'afraid of'. I heard an interesting quote describing the difference as, "Westerners prefer life to whatever may follow". But, I'm not so sure manipulating leaders who take advantage of willing martyrs are so willing to die themselves.

These guys have been at war over Kashmir for years. The fighting has increased and decreased many times. Both countries had nuclear weapons long before they made public displays of testing them.

I'm not so dumb as to put my head in the sand and think it can't happen. But I am very wary of the picture one gets from the evening news.

If the more radical fundamentalists take over Pakistan and gain control over the nuclear arsenal, that might make the situation more volatile. As for India, I have the impression the current government and the military are not made up of radical decision makers.

It seems unlikely that either country has enormous stockpiles of nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them.

beskeptical
2002-May-26, 04:04 AM
Amazing! Espritch, are we on the same wavelength here? Similar messages one minute apart submitted without having seen the others' message. Proof of ESP!!! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif

How do you post without showing up on the currently browsing list? Or did you log out right after posting the above?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-05-26 00:11 ]</font>

Espritch
2002-May-26, 04:19 AM
Well, that's probably more proof than the actual physics have. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

As far as not showing up, I guess it was because I don't usually login until I actually submit something.

Dunash
2002-May-26, 08:42 AM
Indians use ancient texts to try & help them. Isn't it claimed that the texts speak of ancient A bombs, ray guns, levitation & aircraft? If the Egyptians could build the pyramids, which is still a mystery, maybe there was access to what we would call "magical forces" in the past!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1986000/1986595.stm

2002-May-26, 10:27 AM
<a name="20020526.2:18"> page 20020526.2:18 aka CRATER99.BAS
8:May 26, 2002 ? JD2452421 ? 3 ETZNAB 12 ZIP
7: anyway what CRATER99.BAS does.. in 95 Lines
6:CRATER99.BAS 2376
5: is compute the size of a crater
4: created by a meteorite or ?{bomb}
3: one of the "Standard" sized ones WAS
2: PRINT "_ 100 MEGATONNE STANDARD 1KM CRATER _"
1: { Hold the count at 1 to recheck S.. t .. and ..AR.d}

Roy Batty
2002-May-26, 01:28 PM
On 2002-05-26 04:42, Dunash wrote:
If the Egyptians could build the pyramids, which is still a mystery, maybe there was access to what we would call "magical forces" in the past!


We might not know for sure how they were built, but my money sure as heck isnt on magic!:
http://interoz.com/egypt/construction/construc.htm

2002-May-26, 02:07 PM
link to Maxwell LINKS (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=1243&forum=1&4#20020506.7P)
dont forget your magnet field equations for this 1.

Silas
2002-May-26, 08:12 PM
On 2002-05-26 04:42, Dunash wrote:
Indians use ancient texts to try & help them. Isn't it claimed that the texts speak of ancient A bombs, ray guns, levitation & aircraft? If the Egyptians could build the pyramids, which is still a mystery, maybe there was access to what we would call "magical forces" in the past!


Whom are you citing? Von Daniken? There is absolutely no "mystery" involving the building of the pyramids. Every intermediate step is clearly visible in the smaller, earlier pyramids. You can see the tool marks on the stones that erosion have exposed. You can visit the quarries where the stones originated. Reconstructionist groups have built smaller structures to test out ancient techniques.

As for A-Bombs, Levitation, and "Magic," the only cites I've ever seen have been indexed on crank.net.

Silas

beskeptical
2002-May-26, 08:54 PM
On 2002-05-26 00:19, Espritch wrote:
As far as not showing up, I guess it was because I don't usually login until I actually submit something.

I do the same. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif Egad! another mysterious event! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif

As to the BBC news article: if it's in the news IT MUST BE TRUE! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

Actually, our news is equally foolish. I'm disappointed to find the BBC going that way. The problem with the article is there is no contrary side. It is clearly news that the Indian government is funding the research. But the validity of the claims in the text are the reporter's interpretation, not the scientists expectations. There are many ancient medicines and such that deserve research. Beneficial medicines have been discovered in this way, but, exaggerated claims like those in the report have never been the result.

Physiology of the body is well understood. It can use fat stores for energy and go without food until the stores are depleted as long as water and other essential electrolytes are replenished. The body does not store everything, and anything you digest does not change that. Muscle mass is also used for energy requirements. A month without food and you'll be incredibly weak.

Americans are researching a food 'patch' so soldiers can skip meals but you can't get enough nutrition absorbed through the skin to sustain a person for very long.

As to the reference to aircraft, etc., I don't interpret the article as saying the ancient text refers to aircraft, just to something that might be adapted to use on today's machines.

An article, like this one in the citation above, is just one of the reasons I chose the name Beskeptical. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-05-26 16:55 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-05-26 16:55 ]</font>

Prince
2002-May-26, 08:56 PM
There was a recent National Geographic documentary that showed experts assisted by 200 workers trying to assemble a miserable 20' pyramid with 50kg blocks. They failed utterly! US engineers interviewed inside the Great Pyramid of Cheops said that the knifeblade-close fit of its 2.5 million 200 ton blocks could only have been achieved with machine-tools which even they don't have! "10 Degrees of Magic descended on the world and Egypt took 9 of them" (Talmud). Solomon's Temple was said to have beem constructed without any cutting tools, by means of the Shamir Worm - see "Perceptions of the Shamir in 3 Dimensions" by Professor P.Goldstein, Dept of Genetics, University of Texas. Professor James Hanson wrote an article "Levitating & Moving Large Stones by Ambient Electromagnetic Fields Prevalent after Noah's Flood" in the Spring 1999 "Biblical Astronomer" (Shock! Horror!). The construction of megalithic monuments such as the pyramids, the statues on Easter Island, Stonehenge, the Ziggurats of Babylon & and Mexico, the Baalbeck Temple (2000 ton blocks!!), Lake Titicaca etc are real enigmas, contrary to Silas.

beskeptical
2002-May-26, 09:05 PM
Prince,
Doesn't it seem odd to you that your interpretation of reality is different from most other people?
Does your brain contain some special quality that allows you to see what most people miss?
I am not trying to be sarcastic or put you down, I just wonder if you have pondered why you've chosen to accept certain facts as true and rejected others?

Silas
2002-May-26, 11:10 PM
On 2002-05-26 16:56, Prince wrote:
There was a recent National Geographic documentary that showed experts assisted by 200 workers trying to assemble a miserable 20' pyramid with 50kg blocks. They failed utterly!


I watched that on tv, just as you did. They did not "fail utterly." They didn't complete it, but they built up several courses of stonework. They were limited by a budget (time and money;) a Pharoah would not have been.



US engineers interviewed inside the Great Pyramid of Cheops said that the knifeblade-close fit of its 2.5 million 200 ton blocks could only have been achieved with machine-tools which even they don't have!


Cite, please? From all I've read, the blocks of the Great Pyramid are not "knife-blade" close, although some Incan stonework is. As for machine tools, there is *nothing* a machine tool can do that hand tools cannot do. Hand tools just require a lot more time.



"10 Degrees of Magic descended on the world and Egypt took 9 of them" (Talmud).


Maybe so. It certainly is a "shadow-haunted" land of mystery. But what about the mysteries of China, England, India, and so on? Heck, I'd say that Australia has more magic per square mile than Egypt does... And have you ever been to the Grand Canyon and Painted Desert? The magic is as rich there as anywhere else on the face of the earth.

(Then there's Disneyland...)



Solomon's Temple was said to have beem constructed without any cutting tools, by means of the Shamir Worm - see "Perceptions of the Shamir in 3 Dimensions" by Professor P.Goldstein, Dept of Genetics, University of Texas. Professor James Hanson wrote an article "Levitating & Moving Large Stones by Ambient Electromagnetic Fields Prevalent after Noah's Flood" in the Spring 1999 "Biblical Astronomer" (Shock! Horror!).


The Tower of Babel was said to have reached heaven.

(What do you mean by "Shock! Horror!"?)



The construction of megalithic monuments such as the pyramids, the statues on Easter Island, Stonehenge, the Ziggurats of Babylon & and Mexico, the Baalbeck Temple (2000 ton blocks!!), Lake Titicaca etc are real enigmas, contrary to Silas.


I'm not familiar with the Baalbeck Temple.

The Easter Island icons are, again, visible in every stage of construction. You can visit the quarries where the blocks were taken. You can see the rough-cut blocks still in the quarries, not yet lifted. You can see faces lying down, not yet erected. You can trace a line of faces, from smaller and rougher ones, to later and more polished ones.

The Mayan pyramids of Mexico, again, can be found in various phases of development, from ancient ones that were little more than big mounds of earth, to the later ones involving sophisticated stonework.

There is a key question underlying this debate ... and this might make it relevant to Astronomy.

Why is it that some people believe that there was a golden age of vast knowledge in the past? What evidence is there for this? Why was the knowledge lost? Didn't they have libraries? Didn't they have scholars?

The Ancients were pretty clever. I give very high marks to the Egyptians for measuring pi to two decimal places. But they did *not* have vast powers, mystical skills, or wondrous knowledge.

Human knowlegde -- most definitely including astronomical knowledge -- is very highly correlated with time. We know more today than we have ever known before. We will know more tomorrow than we know today.

Do you want to know what "secrets of ancientry" have actually been lost?

The exact formula for Greek Fire. Certain Chinese porcelain-glazing techniques. Several pre-Columbian American languages (largely because the Spanish put the torch to every "pagan" book they could find.) The migration paths of some ancient cultures. A few buried cities in the Saudi sands.

I love a good mystery, but I just can't sign on to the "cult of ignorance."

Silas

Silas
2002-May-27, 01:00 AM
re the earth's spin being affected by bombs...

Go to a typical theme park carousel. Put an ordinary paper cap, as used in cap pistols (back when they were legal...sigh...) on one of the horses, and detonate it.

You've just exposed the carousel to several orders of magnitude MORE force than a large nuclear warhead would inflict upon the earth.

(While you're riding the horse, nod your head forward and then backward, rather as if giving assent to a reasonable suggestion. You've just exposed the carousel to a few orders of magnitude more force than a large hurricane would inflict upon the earth.)

It is a very big planet...

Silas

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-27, 01:11 AM
On 2002-05-25 23:58, Espritch wrote:

Some of the more fanatical Muslims may indeed seek Martyrdumb

While any sort of fanatacism leaves me very dry, I urge people to have a care with this thread. The use of the word "martyrdumb" is very close to being an insult, and you all know The FAQ (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/faq-english.php#rules).

Prince
2002-May-27, 01:44 AM
Great stores of knowledge were kept in the huge depositories of the ancient
world: the great libraries of Memphis, Carthage, Alexandria,Constantinople and Yucatan. All were wantonly put to the
torch by the Romans, Vandals, Spaniards and Muslims, a loss that cannot be calculated. In 640 CE, the Caliph Omar used
the millions of priceless manuscripts of the Library of Alexandria to fuel the city's baths: for six months the fires roared, fuelled by the knowledge of the ancients. If
only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, all the piled-high hoary errors and prevarications of the anti-Bible and hostile atheistic historians (eg.Dio Cassius, Herodotus, Thucydides, Hellanicus, Apion, Voltaire, Graetz, Weiss, Wellhausen, Spengler, Russel, Toynbee and Taylor) would be demolished, and the missing pages of history would be known: History would have to be rewritten and geological time
revised in accord with the Bible.

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-27, 01:52 AM
On 2002-05-26 21:44, Prince wrote:
If
only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, [...] History would have to be rewritten and geological time
revised in accord with the Bible.


This is illogical. All that knowledge was lost, completely, so how can you base your conclusion on anything but what you wish it to be? Perhaps that history that was lost would show conclusively that the Bible is utterly wrong. It's possible that knowledge was at odds with both the Bible and science, or compatible with both.

In the absence of evidence, there are too many free parameters. You cannot draw any conclusions.

Silas
2002-May-27, 04:13 AM
On 2002-05-26 21:44, Prince wrote:
Great stores of knowledge were kept in the huge depositories of the ancient
world: the great libraries of Memphis, Carthage, Alexandria,Constantinople and Yucatan. All were wantonly put to the
torch by the Romans, Vandals, Spaniards and Muslims, a loss that cannot be calculated. In 640 CE, the Caliph Omar used
the millions of priceless manuscripts of the Library of Alexandria to fuel the city's baths: for six months the fires roared, fuelled by the knowledge of the ancients.


This is true. There is no doubt about it.

Vast amounts of literature has been lost.

But most of it was literature. The lost dialogues of Plato and Socrates. The lost plays of Euripides. Lost histories. Lost poems. Lost philosophies.

But not lost "knowledge."

How can I say this? Well... Look at what *has* survived, in fragments, often quoted by other sources. We have fragments of the lost plays, lost dialogues, lost poems, and lost histories. The fragments give a strong hint of what the whole might have looked like.

There are NO fragments having to do with the miracles you have alluded to. There is no evidence at all.




If only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, all the piled-high hoary errors and prevarications of the anti-Bible and hostile atheistic historians (eg.Dio Cassius, Herodotus, Thucydides, Hellanicus, Apion, Voltaire, Graetz, Weiss, Wellhausen, Spengler, Russel, Toynbee and Taylor) would be demolished, and the missing pages of history would be known: History would have to be rewritten and geological time
revised in accord with the Bible.


I disagree. Furthermore, I discern a conflict in your agendas. The Bible is not comfortably consonant with "ancient miracles." The Bible is very clear in its condemnation of wizards, witches, fortune-tellers, and the like. This doesn't go very well with the notion that the Egyptians had such miracles as atomic energy or telekinesis....

Are you actually comfortable saying that Pharoah could, like Joshua, cause the earth to stand still? Do you really want to grant to Pharoah, as to God, the ability to annihilate cities in fire?

I'm sorry, and I know that this is getting WAY off the legitimate line of argument here, but it seems as if you are attempting to serve two masters.

Are the ancient events "Miracles at the hand of God," or "Egyptian Super Science?"

(Or, my own view, they are poetry and allegory, nothing more.)

Silas

Peter B
2002-May-27, 04:43 AM
Prince said (in part): "In 640 CE, the Caliph Omar used the millions of priceless manuscripts of the Library of Alexandria to fuel the city's baths: for six months the fires roared, fuelled by the knowledge of the ancients. If only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, all the piled- igh hoary errors and prevarications of the anti-Bible and hostile atheistic historians...would be demolished..."

You know, the last I read, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed in the late 4th century by a Christian mob.

beskeptical
2002-May-27, 05:57 AM
"the great libraries ... Yucatan."

I can't find any reference to books nor paper nor parchment writings from any North or South American Indian peoples before Europeans arrived. Weren't all their writings carved in stone?

I highly recommend a visit to Tikal, Palanque, Chitzen Itza, and Mexico City. See for yourself. You can actually get there quite inexpensively. Cross by land into Tijuana or other large border city. Air travel from there is dirt cheap, (that is if you don't mind a plane that's a bit dicey).

Prince
2002-May-27, 08:58 AM
Actually Joshua (ch 10) commanded the sun & moon to stop moving, not the Earth
its purported rotation! It does not say that "the Earth stopped its turning so
that the sun and moon seemed to stand still", but "the sun stood still & the moon
stayed". God is not a clumsy writer: He writes what He means & means what He
writes!

Joshua's Long Day, like the backing up of the sun by 10 degrees - Hezekiah's
Sign (Isaiah 38) - were real worldwide events, as historical records show.

Conrad
2002-May-27, 10:57 AM
On 2002-05-26 16:56, Prince wrote:
There was a recent National Geographic documentary that showed experts assisted by 200 workers trying to assemble a miserable 20' pyramid with 50kg blocks. They failed utterly! US engineers interviewed inside the Great Pyramid of Cheops said that the knifeblade-close fit of its 2.5 million 200 ton blocks could only have been achieved with machine-tools which even they don't have! "10 Degrees of Magic descended on the world and Egypt took 9 of them" (Talmud). Solomon's Temple was said to have beem constructed without any cutting tools, by means of the Shamir Worm - see "Perceptions of the Shamir in 3 Dimensions" by Professor P.Goldstein, Dept of Genetics, University of Texas. Professor James Hanson wrote an article "Levitating & Moving Large Stones by Ambient Electromagnetic Fields Prevalent after Noah's Flood" in the Spring 1999 "Biblical Astronomer" (Shock! Horror!). The construction of megalithic monuments such as the pyramids, the statues on Easter Island, Stonehenge, the Ziggurats of Babylon & and Mexico, the Baalbeck Temple (2000 ton blocks!!), Lake Titicaca etc are real enigmas, contrary to Silas.


Ahem. What you want to watch is a BBC series called (I think) "Secrets of the Ancients". The researchers managed to build a small pyramid @ 10 feet tall, with only a few labourers to help. The same series also showed how the stones at Stonehenge were transported and erected.The series also showed that the Easter Island statues were simply carved from the island's rock quarries and even showed one massive statue still in situ. The stones of the Baalbeck Trilithon are known to be partially hollow and thus don't mass 2000 tons. They were moved by a series of "Gopelwinder", capstan winches arranged along each side of the stone, dragging it forward slowly but steadily - and I know this because I looked it up at an archeology website.
Sadly, no exotic ancient anachronistic hi-tec, just plain old human effort and simple tools.

Conrad
2002-May-27, 11:06 AM
On 2002-05-26 21:44, Prince wrote:
Great stores of knowledge were kept in the huge depositories of the ancient
world: the great libraries of Memphis, Carthage, Alexandria,Constantinople and Yucatan. All were wantonly put to the
torch by the Romans, Vandals, Spaniards and Muslims, a loss that cannot be calculated. In 640 CE, the Caliph Omar used
the millions of priceless manuscripts of the Library of Alexandria to fuel the city's baths: for six months the fires roared, fuelled by the knowledge of the ancients. If
only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, all the piled-high hoary errors and prevarications of the anti-Bible and hostile atheistic historians (eg.Dio Cassius, Herodotus, Thucydides, Hellanicus, Apion, Voltaire, Graetz, Weiss, Wellhausen, Spengler, Russel, Toynbee and Taylor) would be demolished, and the missing pages of history would be known: History would have to be rewritten and geological time
revised in accord with the Bible.


Ahem!
I happen to have read Thucydides and Herodotus. They would have found it hard to be anti-bible, since they lived in the 5th Century BC! What they were notable for was an attempt to be objective, factual and analytical about history. You can call that "atheistic" if you like. Others may call it "historic". I certainly don't consider Herodotus "hostile", and reading his works is a valuable counterbalance to prejudices about Persians acquired from watching "300 Spartans".
Nothing to do with astronomy here, is there?
Well, no, but some of those scribes mentioned by Prince demonstrated the critical faculties appropriate for scientific research.
(a thin link, but the best I can manage)

:}

Prince
2002-May-27, 02:24 PM
The ancient historian Manetho complained greatly against Herodotus' untruths about the history of the Hebrews in Egyptian history. Graham Hancock's "Fingerprint of the Gods" 1995 shows that man's past requires a re-evaluation, without resorting to Von Daniken's aliens (though not discounting the existence of non-extra-terrestrial aliens ie Demons & Angels!). And on the subject of demons, Paki nuclear scientists are actually attempting to invoke and incant the Jinn into the flaming nuclear cores of their reactors to strike victory against their enemies!

Conrad
2002-May-27, 03:24 PM
On 2002-05-27 10:24, Prince wrote:
The ancient historian Manetho complained greatly against Herodotus' untruths about the history of the Hebrews in Egyptian history. Graham Hancock's "Fingerprint of the Gods" 1995 shows that man's past requires a re-evaluation, without resorting to Von Daniken's aliens (though not discounting the existence of non-extra-terrestrial aliens ie Demons & Angels!). And on the subject of demons, Paki nuclear scientists are actually attempting to invoke and incant the Jinn into the flaming nuclear cores of their reactors to strike victory against their enemies!


Not sure where you're posting from, but here in the UK the term "Paki" is generally used as a term of racist abuse. I suggest the full name Pakistani or some other word be used instead, lest Phil be provoked.

Prince
2002-May-27, 06:03 PM
A person from Tadjikistan is called a Tadjiki; from Turmenistan a Turkmeni; from Uzbekistan an Uzbeki; from Afganistan an Afgani; and from Pakistan a Paki. The "stan" ending always drops off. Trust the British to get the Queen's English wrong!

Andrew
2002-May-27, 07:19 PM
Someone from Tadjikistan is a Tadjik orTajik.
Someone From Uzbekistan is an Uzbek.
Someone from Afghanistan is an Afghan.
Someone from Turkmenistan is a Turkmen or Turkoman.
Someone from Pakistan is a Pakistani.

All of these are from the Oxford Concise English Dictionary.
Hope this clears that up.

Phobos
2002-May-27, 07:27 PM
On 2002-05-27 14:03, Prince wrote:
A person from Tadjikistan is called a Tadjiki; from Turmenistan a Turkmeni; from Uzbekistan an Uzbeki; from Afganistan an Afgani; and from Pakistan a Paki. The "stan" ending always drops off. Trust the British to get the Queen's English wrong!


I am British, and my business partners are from Pakistan. They refer to themselves as Pakistani, but will use the term "Paki" as a term of abuse.

So Prince, do you consider the opinions of the peoples from Pakistan to be equally irrevalent ?

Try looking at typical Pakistani websites such as this on - Example Website (http://spider.tm/aug2001/bestpak.html)

Note that whilst there are several "Pakistani" references, there is not a single "Paki" reference. But there again, Trust the people of Pakistan to get the term wrong! After all what do they know, they didn't have the benifit of a consultation with Prince.

Phobos

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phobos on 2002-05-27 15:32 ]</font>

Silas
2002-May-27, 08:10 PM
I can't find any reference to books nor paper nor parchment writings from any North or South American Indian peoples before Europeans arrived. Weren't all their writings carved in stone?


As with Egypt, or Rome (or even the U.S.A.) great monumental events are carven in stone, but the day-to-day record-keeping is on more perishable material.

I was taught in college (sorry, no text available, but will search) that the Spanish Padres took immense volumes of such material and had it burned. I don't know if it was paper, per se, but I'm pretty sure they had parchment.

(I wish they'd had the instincts of their earlier Christian role-models, who sought to preserve knowledge by copying it, rather than burning it.)

In any case, and to the OP, there is no evidence whatever that the Mayan pyramids and steles were erected by telekinesis, and there *is* archaeological evidence showing that they were lifted into place by levers and ropes.

Silas

Silas
2002-May-27, 08:15 PM
On 2002-05-27 00:43, Peter B wrote:
Prince said (in part): "In 640 CE, the Caliph Omar used the millions of priceless manuscripts of the Library of Alexandria to fuel the city's baths: for six months the fires roared, fuelled by the knowledge of the ancients. If only a fraction of these incunabulae had been saved, all the piled- igh hoary errors and prevarications of the anti-Bible and hostile atheistic historians...would be demolished..."

You know, the last I read, the Library of Alexandria was destroyed in the late 4th century by a Christian mob.


More trivia: the Library at Alexandria was heavily damaged several times, and always rebuilt. It burned in the time of Cleopatra, but was rebuilt. Ditto for the burning you alluded to. And ditto again and again.

(Think about San Francisco: destroyed utterly in the great fire...and a city of wonders today.)

Silas

Prince
2002-May-27, 08:56 PM
During the Gulf war General Scwartzkopf repeatedly referred to the Pakistani contingent as "the Pakis", and they never took umbrage. He of course holds by the American Random House dictionary! It is well known that the reason the Pakis(tanis) in the UK (who already comprise 20% of London's population and 8% of the UK total) feign taking the name as an insult is in order to milk the generous British asylum/immigration/social benefit/housing system even more on bogus grounds of "racism".

Andrew
2002-May-27, 09:15 PM
Well, the only American dictionary I have access to is Dictionary.com (which is , I gather, American.).
The only defintition they have is this:

Pak·i Pronunciation Key (pk)
n. Chiefly British Offensive Slang pl. Pak·is
Used as a disparaging term for a person from Pakistan or neighboring countries or for the descendant of such a person.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Short for Pakistani.]

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-27, 09:17 PM
Here's a thought: just call them Pakistanis. It only takes a moment more to write, offends no one, and will keep this thread from becoming a flamefest.

I suspect some of you may only be staying on this because Prince says things you don't agree with. Let's stay on target, please.

Roy Batty
2002-May-27, 09:38 PM
I'm sorry, this is off topic again but if someone presents obviously bogus facts...

http://elt.britcoun.org.pl/s_fco1.htm
http://www.imdiversity.com/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=161

Phobos
2002-May-27, 10:50 PM
On 2002-05-27 17:38, Roy Batty wrote:
I'm sorry, this is off topic again but if someone presents obviously bogus facts...

http://elt.britcoun.org.pl/s_fco1.htm
http://www.imdiversity.com/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=161



The report you quote states that the Pakistani population is 0.9%. But Prince was referring to the Paki population which was not meantioned on this report!

Seriously though the BA is right about us having a little dig a Prince. In this particular matter it is fairly trivial to correct his errors whereas other issues (especially those involving religion) can get more frustrating.

Whilst we may have had a little fun at his expence I for one am glad that he contributes to the board and thus adds a different perspective (provided he avoids post and run tactics that is).

Phobos

Simon
2002-May-27, 10:56 PM
On 2002-05-26 16:56, Prince wrote:
The construction of megalithic monuments such as the pyramids, the statues on Easter Island, Stonehenge, the Ziggurats of Babylon & and Mexico, the Baalbeck Temple (2000 ton blocks!!), Lake Titicaca etc are real enigmas, contrary to Silas.


...Speaking as someone who's been to Balbeck a time or two, I seem to recall that most of the ruins there are Greek and Roman, built on top of older stuff. Certainly the largest and most famous stuff is Roman. I don't think anyone is going to dispute what great engineers the Greeks and Romans were.

And to keep this (marginally) on astronomy, the main Greek temple was to Helios, god of the sky and sun.

Silas
2002-May-28, 03:36 AM
Follow-up: The Mayans had paper, quite similar to Egyptian Paper. It was made from fig (tapa) leaves. Some note has been made that this is very similar to paper made in Pacific Islands.

The priest who burned all but four known books was recalled to Rome, and asked to justify himself. He wrote a detailed defense, which, ironically, is one of the most detailed known accounts of Mayan civilization.

Silas

beskeptical
2002-May-28, 08:38 AM
On 2002-05-27 16:10, Silas wrote:
I was taught in college (sorry, no text available, but will search) that the Spanish Padres took immense volumes of such material and had it burned. I don't know if it was paper, per se, but I'm pretty sure they had parchment.


Yep, I looked it up in a book on Aztecs here. (I didn't look into other American peoples). Aztecs had paper made from tree bark and lime. They recorded everything. They had the equivilent of books. It is amazing what distortions old stereo types still create in one's mind. I'm annoyed at the prejudiced history that was taught in schools I attended. Writing was obviously a big part of Aztec history. But, nooo, we had to learn about cutting hearts out and throwing people into cenotes, (pot hole lakes).

Caryn
2002-May-28, 12:13 PM
Plenty of links here re: Aztecs, pyramids, Easter Island, Ayurvedic aircraft, Baalbek anomalies etc etc. No doubt plenty of errors, but sufficient evidence to refute Konrad & Silas that "there's nothing at all odd in ancient history" assertion.

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.com/forbidden.html

Donnie B.
2002-May-28, 02:11 PM
On 2002-05-27 01:57, beskeptical wrote:
"the great libraries ... Yucatan."

I can't find any reference to books nor paper nor parchment writings from any North or South American Indian peoples before Europeans arrived. Weren't all their writings carved in stone?


(added) Oops, sorry, be, I posted this before seeing the other responses. Didn't mean to pile on!

By no means. There were a great many writings of several cultures extant at the time of the Spanish conquests. Here is a link:
http://pages.prodigy.com/GBonline/ancwrite.html
Of course, thanks to the "ethnic cleansing" performed by the Spanish, most of what remains today is in the form of stone carvings (stelae, lintels, and the like).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Donnie B. on 2002-05-28 10:23 ]</font>

Silas
2002-May-28, 03:40 PM
On 2002-05-28 08:13, Caryn wrote:
Plenty of links here re: Aztecs, pyramids, Easter Island, Ayurvedic aircraft, Baalbek anomalies etc etc. No doubt plenty of errors, but sufficient evidence to refute Konrad & Silas that "there's nothing at all odd in ancient history" assertion.

http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.com/forbidden.html


Ah, but no one said that. We simply said that there isn't any evidence *for* "Egyptian Super Science," or that large blocks of stone were lifted by magic. I don't for a moment deny that there are numerous archaeological mysteries, some of which I hope to see solved in my lifetime.

Mysterious? Yes.

Magic? Show me.

Silas

Valiant Dancer
2002-May-28, 07:04 PM
On 2002-05-25 23:58, Espritch wrote:

Don't forget that unlike westerners who are afraid of death, the Muslim Pakis, like their PLO cousins, actually seek Koranic martyrdom for Allah, and the Hindu Indians really do believe absolutely that reincarnation, even into a cow or a worm, is a desirable fate, and they are keen to die & be reincarnated for the glory of Shiva, Brahma, Dikka and Kali!

Some of the more fanatical Muslims may indeed seek Martyrdumb, but as is the case with most religions, when push comes to shove, most "believers" are somewhat hypocritical on this point. There was an article in my local paper just this morning about Palistinian parents seeking counseling for their children because they didn't want them going off and getting themselves killed in the name of Allah. Curiously, some of these same parents indicated that they thought suicide bombers were a good weapon to use aginst Isreal. They just didn't think it was a good idea for "their" children (as I said, the religious tend to be just a tad hypocritical).

As far as Idians, while Hindus do believe in reincarnation, I've never heard any of them express any strong desire to get turned into a nuclear french fry for the sake of Kali or anyone else.

Back in the 80's, Sting wrote a Song, "Russians", in which he states that the only thing can save us from nuclear war "is if the Russians love their children too." I'm betting that both the Packistanis and the Indians love their children. So maybe cooler heads will prevail again and the worst will not come to pass.


Just a tad off topic, but the suicide bombers violate the tennants of their own religion. Islam expressly forbids suicide. Death in battle against those who oppress you is grounds for martyrdom.

Koran 4:29-30

" O you who believe! do not devour your property among yourselves falsely, except that it be trading by your mutual consent; and do not kill your people; surely Allah is Merciful to you.
And whoever does this aggressively and unjustly, We will soon cast him into fire; and this is easy to Allah."

Some of the more fanatical Muslims are misled by local doctorine forwarding suicide bombers.

Back to the topic though. 50 Hiroshima style blasts, even if simulaneous would do diddly over squat to the tilt on axis.

beskeptical
2002-May-29, 12:15 AM
On 2002-05-28 10:11, Donnie B. wrote:
(added) Oops, sorry, be, I posted this before seeing the other responses. Didn't mean to pile on!


I am never offended by learning anything. Since I tell people they are wrong all the time, /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif , I have to be open to the same.

beskeptical
2002-May-29, 12:17 AM
Oh my gosh, I became a bad apprentice! That probably doesn't say much for my social life.

beskeptical
2002-May-29, 01:06 AM
Don't forget that unlike westerners who are afraid of death, the Muslim Pakistanis (edited by beskep. for pc), like their PLO cousins, actually seek Koranic martyrdom for Allah, and the Hindu Indians really do believe absolutely that reincarnation, even into a cow or a worm, is a desirable fate, and they are keen to die & be reincarnated for the glory of Shiva, Brahma, Dikka and Kali!


As far as Indians, (edited by beskep. for typo) while Hindus do believe in reincarnation, I've never heard any of them express any strong desire to get turned into a nuclear french fry for the sake of Kali or anyone else.


Some of the more fanatical Muslims are misled by local doctrine (edited for spelling) forwarding suicide bombers.

It doesn't matter who said what above. Sorry, once I made one correction I had to make them all.


Back to the topic though. 50 Hiroshima style blasts, even if simulaneous would do diddly over squat to the tilt on axis.

Since I made an error on which cultures made paper, and, I think an unconsciously imbedded stereotype influenced my memory, (consciously, I don't believe white Europeans were any more advanced than most other civilizations), I think it is appropriate to comment here.

Are any of you commenting on these cultures from a position of expertise? Are you of the culture you are describing? Is your information coming mostly from the news media and the egocentric American history lessons taught in most schools? For those of you from other countries, I don't know how European and other Countries' history lessons compare.

I know some of you may have traveled to countries where you met the folks you are describing, but how long did you stay? Did you live with folks from those countries or with folks from your own country?

After college, I had the usual wanderlust and was fortunate enough to travel off and on for a couple of years, the backback and limited budget route. It always bothers me now to hear peoples' misperceptions of other peoples they have never really met, or only know a little about, when I know their descriptions are not of the same people I met. [My biggest pet peeve is calling the Nicaraguan Contras 'freedom fighters'. I saw a Contra soldier use a machete to cut the hand off a child to prevent the child from getting water out of a creek. (Oh I am sorry to put that totally off the topic comment in here but I just couldn't help myself)]

Anyway, back to my point, without a lot of experience with people directly, aren't you only repeating what you've heard from very filtered sources?


And for part two, from my very filtered sources I can't imagine either Pakistan or India having lots of nukes stockpiled, and even if they did, it doesn't seem likely they could set off more than one or two before being totally devastated by the other guy's.

If World War III (actually, I think the count is off) were to result with countries firing nukes at everyone, I don't think the mechanism of world destruction would matter much. If the world's climate is destroyed, does it matter how it happened?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: beskeptical on 2002-05-28 21:09 ]</font>

Valiant Dancer
2002-May-29, 03:01 PM
Some of the more fanatical Muslims are misled by local doctrine (edited for spelling) forwarding suicide bombers.

It doesn't matter who said what above. Sorry, once I made one correction I had to make them all.


Back to the topic though. 50 Hiroshima style blasts, even if simulaneous would do diddly over squat to the tilt on axis.

Since I made an error on which cultures made paper, and, I think an unconsciously imbedded stereotype influenced my memory, (consciously, I don't believe white Europeans were any more advanced than most other civilizations), I think it is appropriate to comment here.

Are any of you commenting on these cultures from a position of expertise? Are you of the culture you are describing? Is your information coming mostly from the news media and the egocentric American history lessons taught in most schools? For those of you from other countries, I don't know how European and other Countries' history lessons compare.


1) spelling. I'm a computer geek, I spell execute starting with an "X".

2) I base my statements concerning Islam from my years of searching for spirituality. I read the Koran as part of an Islamic religion course in college. By reading the religious text of a religion, one does get an idea of what motivates them. Also, studying the culture and past conflicts also give a clue. I ended up understanding Islam but rejecting it for me.

3) India and Pakistan have between 35 and 100 nuclear warheads each. (from the last information I had.) So far, even during the most bitter fighting and invasion by China, they have elected not to nuke one another.

informant
2002-May-29, 08:52 PM
Caryn wrote
Didn't Oppenheimer at Trinty quote from a Hindu Ayurvedic text "We have become Death: the destroyer of Worlds!"?”

I think this sentence is attributed to Shiva (or Siva), the Destroyer. Not a nice chap, and probably not representative of the whole of the Hindu religion.


Silas wrote

I was taught in college (sorry, no text available, but will search) that the Spanish Padres took immense volumes of such material and had it burned. I don't know if it was paper, per se, but I'm pretty sure they had parchment.

Follow-up: The Mayans had paper, quite similar to Egyptian Paper. It was made from fig (tapa) leaves. Some note has been made that this is very similar to paper made in Pacific Islands.

Technically, the Egyptians’ “paper” was called papyrus, I think. The process for manufacturing paper was invented in the Middle Ages by the Chinese.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: informant on 2002-05-29 17:57 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: informant on 2002-05-29 17:58 ]</font>

DJ
2002-May-29, 09:50 PM
3) India and Pakistan have between 35 and 100 nuclear warheads each. (from the last information I had.) So far, even during the most bitter fighting and invasion by China, they have elected not to nuke one another.



As for #3, I see this situation as a cure for several things:

1) Nuclear disarmament of the region, stop of proliferation
2) General stop to the violence in the region, Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Only thing is we need to pull our troops before they pull the trigger.
3) More above ground nuke testing, allowing us to study the effects on actual populations, ground water, weather, etc.

I realize this sounds both cruel and sarcastic. It was meant to be the latter. Exactly what does Islam need with a Nuke? (adaptation of J. Kirk's question to "God") After all, they are all saved already by virtue of their choice in religions, so exactly what are they fighting for? It seems awfully SECULAR to me.

DJ

Hauteden
2002-May-30, 04:50 AM
On 2002-05-26 21:52, The Bad Astronomer wrote

In the absence of evidence, there are too many free parameters. You cannot draw any conclusions.


Hey BA is this quote all you or did you get it from some other source. And if you don't mind I would like to use it.

As for the topic; I find it very egocentric of humans that we think our actions will alter/destroy Earth. Earth has been around at least a decade or two before I was born. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif And it will be here at least that long after I die. Earth is a living, breathing, changing eco-system and it doesn't need us to do that.

In the grand scope of things we are only a very small factor, one might even say an irrelevant factor. "Changes" we make are short term at best geolocially speaking or course.

Hauteden

Silas
2002-May-30, 05:16 AM
On 2002-05-30 00:50, Hauteden wrote:
As for the topic; I find it very egocentric of humans that we think our actions will alter/destroy Earth. Earth has been around at least a decade or two before I was born. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif And it will be here at least that long after I die. Earth is a living, breathing, changing eco-system and it doesn't need us to do that.


Two points in disagreement...

1) Mankind has progressed in technology to the point where we can produce pollutants, overfigh the seas, and (in the worst case) release radioactives, to such a degree that we *can* affect the biosphere.

2) We are entering into an entirely new age of technology, in which our inventions might become self-reproductive. There is a theoretical possibility that genetic manipulation, or self-reproducing nano-machines, could escape from our control and enter into an exponential growth phase which could never be halted.

Personally, I'm not too worried about threat number two. But I will not retreat from my sincere concern about threat number one. You can easily calculate the amounts of unpleasant chemicals that we're concentrating and releasing.

The disappearance of a truck hauling 18 barrels of cyanide is only a footnote.

In the 1960's, human industry turned Lake Erie into a cesspool. Since then, human effort has restored the lake to normalcy.

We have an incredible amount of power. How are we going to use it?

Silas

2002-May-30, 02:43 PM
<a name="20020530.6:3"> page 20020530.6:3 aka HUb' guesses about the Exchange Rates
<pre>
warm 3.6 e 12 kWhr !cty Mg( 6)
blite 4.2 e 18 kTonn !boom Gg( 9)
shake e 24 #Rh.ictar !rattle (12)
wiew e 30 #Tp.actor !wtcht (15)
6:32 A.M. in my view? as i watch the Made For Prime Time Nightleys
even if some shake decides to rattle the Rates
with a boom to increasethe blite of some blight
1) Mankind has progressed in technology to the point where we can produce pollutants, overfigh the seas, and (in the worst case) release radioactives, to such a degree that we *can* affect the biosphere.

2) We are entering into an entirely new age of technology, in which our inventions might become self-reproductive. There is a theoretical possibility that genetic manipulation, or self-reproducing nano-machines, could escape from our control and enter into an exponential growth phase which could never be halted.

I rather doubt that it will warm
appricably and far flung cities
---------------------------------My guesseS are these
A: and if RIF occurs {i think its overdue}
B. because the current Made4PtTV
c? can appear so trivial
D I don't rule out REAL rif
==============================
this said, I may as well `specALL.late
in terms of giggle.grams
now how many 1oo thousand [oh never mind][why bother}

Valiant Dancer
2002-May-30, 03:17 PM
On 2002-05-29 17:50, DJ wrote:


3) India and Pakistan have between 35 and 100 nuclear warheads each. (from the last information I had.) So far, even during the most bitter fighting and invasion by China, they have elected not to nuke one another.



As for #3, I see this situation as a cure for several things:

1) Nuclear disarmament of the region, stop of proliferation
2) General stop to the violence in the region, Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan. Only thing is we need to pull our troops before they pull the trigger.
3) More above ground nuke testing, allowing us to study the effects on actual populations, ground water, weather, etc.

I realize this sounds both cruel and sarcastic. It was meant to be the latter. Exactly what does Islam need with a Nuke? (adaptation of J. Kirk's question to "God") After all, they are all saved already by virtue of their choice in religions, so exactly what are they fighting for? It seems awfully SECULAR to me.

DJ


Some answers to your questions.

Proliferation refers to new countries getting nuclear weapons. This has been relatively successful. As for disarmament, the countries involved have to decide to disarm. The US cannot force a billion people to do what they don't want to.

The Indian - Pakistani conflict is not only religious in nature. Kashmir was denied an open vote to affiliate with India or Pakistan (unlike every other district in India pre-split.). Kashmir is predominately Muslim and would have joined Pakistan. Kashmir is also the district which is the most profitable. (This is where kashmir sweaters come from.) See, there are non-secular reasons.

US troops are only in Afghanistan. Stopping the hunt for Osama Bin Laden because a conflict might erupt on the other side of the neighboring country is absurd. Also, Pakistan and India are cooperating with the US. Since US troops are not in the conflict zones, it is not likely that US troops would be in danger in case of a reopening of hostilities.

Why do they need nukes? Because the other guy has them. The same MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) logic that the US and Soviets used in their nuclear arsenal building programs.

Above ground nuke testing no longer gives any reasonable useful data. Mostly they are used to show capability. Radiation data has been collected on populations affected in Japan and the United States. (Russia also probably did these tests but aren't talking about it.) Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors have been tracked as well as US service men who were marched into nuclear fallout as a testing exercise. (Not to mention the radiation fallout testing in Tennesee.)

Darkwing
2002-May-30, 05:44 PM
If you want to know how many nukes India and Pakistan have, and what kinds, check out

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html

beskeptical
2002-May-31, 11:32 AM
Vallient D.: 'doctorine' I don't see the computerese shorthand here. Doctrine is shorter.

I usually don't correct anyone's spelling, I misspelled and mis-typed my way through college and I don't think I suffered too much for it. I just thought since I was changing peoples' quotes to be pc, I'd change them to be correctly spelled as well.

As far as studying a religious text, since peoples' interpretation of religious texts are so varied, does it give you knowledge of the people and their culture?

I was just trying to get people to think about the stereotypes they were repeating. Some folks might have lots of insight into another culture, it would be good to hear their thoughts. But many people make judgements based on a very distorted picture that has come from the media and other similar filtered sources.

The Bad Astronomer
2002-May-31, 04:19 PM
On 2002-05-30 00:50, Hauteden wrote:
Hey BA is this quote all you or did you get it from some other source. And if you don't mind I would like to use it.


Feel free; it's mine.

And we're straying off topic again here. While I am all for the open discussion of politics, I would greatly prefer we stick to astronomy, or at least science on this board. Thanks.

2002-Jun-03, 04:53 PM
<a name="20020603.8:4"> page 20020603.8:4 aka ?dARKwING?
On 2002-05-30 13:44, Darkwing wrote: To:
MY baINdex (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=183&forum=1#LOCKTHRD)

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html

yeah, Tanks:

not wanting to have BA have the last word on this
I was drawn in via the Vaccume {oh my} NU k soon 2appear

Dunash
2002-Jun-03, 10:08 PM
FYI - posted below is an op-ed piece that appeared in the Pakistani daily
The Nation.

-------------------------------------------

The Nation
28 August 1999
Op-Ed
THE 2000 NUCLEAR WAR
By Brian Cloughley


Worldpress despatch.
Dateline: Washington, Friday, September 3, 2000: The world was stunned today
as nuclear devastation fell on the subcontinent. Enormous areas of Bombay,
Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Delhi were reduced to radioactive rubble in the
early hours of this morning (11am Washington time). Both Hyderabads have
been obliterated, as have Sargodha, Bahawalpur and Jaipur by weapons that
are thought to have had a yield of about 40 kilotons (the Hiroshima bomb was
less than half that). A later Indian strike against Karachi failed, when a
nuclear-armed Su-30 aircraft had to take evasive action and released its
weapon about fifty miles west of Pakistan's only port city, but prevailing
winds drove massive clouds of radioactive sand across the entire urban area.
Ground zero for Pakistan's nuclear rocket aimed at New Delhi appeared to be
symbolic-India Gate. The city's business area, centred round Connaught
Place, no longer exists, and destruction was total in the diplomatic enclave
of Chanakyapuri and north to Civil Lines, perhaps further.
It is estimated that two million may have died in Delhi, about the same
number in Bombay and Rawalpindi, and the entire population of Islamabad,
where a bomb landed, ironically, close to Zero Point on the road from
Rawalpindi, has vanished. Pakistan's attack on the Trombay nuclear facility
was driven off-target, but inaccuracy, did not matter: the hearts of
Pakistan and India have been laid waste.
There are smoking, contaminated, corpse-ridden ruins for hundreds of square
miles. Millions of people have disappeared-evaporated into the contaminated
air, as if they had never existed; countless more face lingering,
disgusting, disfigured death from the effects of blast and radiation. Water
supplies and crops have been poisoned. Many millions not directly affected
by the explosions will soon, die, and in particularly horrible ways.
The governments of both countries remain functioning, and prime ministers
Vajpayee and Nawaz Sharif, from their respective emergency centres of
government in Chennai (Madras) and Quetta, have said that they will fight
on. But they will die, too, with all their ministers and advisers, when the
winds and rains spread radioactive death thought the land. The countries
cannot fight on, or even survive as nations. Countless millions of refugees
are flooding out of cities and towns all over India and Pakistan, heading in
any direction that will take them away from what they fear will be
destruction of all population centres. Every main route is verge-to-verge
vehicles travelling at the snail pace of terrified and hysterical crowds.
The Rawalpindi-Peshawar road, in a bizarre development, has been seen
thousands of refugees from both cities meeting at Nowshera where there is
indescribable panic and confusion. The Khyber Pass is choked. Similar
scenes are evident in Japanese satellite pictures of the Bombay-Pune road
and at Hapur, half-way between Delhi and Moradabad. Nowhere on any escape
routes are there hygiene or medical facilities that can cope with the
exodus. Once refugees have exhausted their meagre supplies of food and water
there will be hunger, looting, disease, violence and hideous death on a
colossal scale.
An estimated hundred thousand military and civilian deaths were caused by
tactical nuclear missiles in Punjab, Sindh and Rajasthan. There was mutual
annihilation of Indian and Pakistani strike corps on Thursday morning as the
armour-heavy formations advanced into each other's territory Hundreds of
tanks and aircraft were destroyed. US satellites show that the only
Pakistani airfields remaining are emergency strips in Balochistan from which
about a dozen F-16 are flying missions-to what purpose is not evident.
Half India's Mirage-2000 and Su-30 fleet was hit on the ground, but the
remainder appear to be based in eastern areas from which they are operating
deep into Pakistan territory. According to the last Indian and Pakistani
news broadcasts, the sight or sound of aircraft-any aircraft-causes
devastating panic in refugee columns. Neither side has launched follow-up
nuclear strikes, possibly because of horror at the death and destruction
they unleashed-or perhaps because there is no means of doing so. Bomb stocks
are held far from emergency airfields and it would be impossible to transfer
them, even if military communications are working, which is doubtful.
Foreign intelligence reports indicate that Pakistan's Ghauri missiles, with
the exception of the one targeted on Delhi, were destroyed on the ground, as
were India's Agnis, two of which had been made ready for firing.
Western countries are stunned by the apocalyptic news. Although tension had
been high in the subcontinent, caused by conflict in Kashmir (which many
warned would lead to just this terrible nuclear havoc), Prime Minister
Vajpayee's continued reiteration that bilateral discussions would resolve
their problems gave hope that fighting in that disputed territory would not
spread. Prime Minster Nawaz Sharif seemed to echo New Delhi's assurances;
but in spite of their statements both sides continued to prepare for war.
The countries had sent armored forces close to their border in Punjab,
Rajasthan and Sindh in June and July, and then activated 'bare base'
airfields and moved tactical missiles and warheads to emergency deployment
positions in August. This activity was detected by foreign agencies and
satellites, but international comment died down after an initial burst of
concern.
America's lame-duck president gave conflicting messages to Islamabad and New
Delhi. Mr Clinton at first appeared to criticise Pakistan, but then failed
to follow-up by taking India to task for moving missiles. State Department
sources said today that warnings concerning the belligerent stances of India
and Pakistan went unheeded because President Clinton believed assurances
from both prime ministers that neither was contemplating military action,
but statements by Sharif and Vajpayee and their advisers show that there was
steady hardening of positions. Rhetoric aside, this should have alerted
foreign analysts to worsening situation, but there was no warning when
Pakistani and Indian leaders decided that mutual incursions in Kashmir
presented insults to national pride that demanded military action.
Coincidentally-and determinedly-both sides moved in parallel towards nuclear
catastrophe. UPDATE: The situation in the region is worsening minute by
minute. Commercial satellite pictures show clouds of nuclear dust being
blown in every direction. Kashmir has received unseasonal torrential rains,
mixed with radioactive particles. The dust will drop on the Himalayas from
where most water in the subcontinent originates, and all northern rivers
will be terminally contaminated. The climate in the region seems to have
altered to the point of going berserk. Hot, swirling sandstorms in the deser
ts of Rajasthan, Sindh and Balochistan have been driven into Punjab, North
West Frontier Province, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh. It seems that neighboring
countries are being affected. Reports just in from Colombo indicate rising
levels of radiation.
Tehran has complained in the strongest terms concerning fallout in Kerman,
but there is no-one to listen to such protests-and nothing that could be
done; even were they heard. The UN Security Council is sitting in emergency
session, but reports indicate that it is a hand-wringing colloquy rather
than a meeting that could solve the staggering crisis that has erupted for
the world as a whole. A handful of nuclear weapons has caused devastation on
a scale not seen since the end of the dinosaurs. All the world can do is
wait until nature takes its course, over the centuries. The subcontinent is
ceasing to exist, and no help will come from elsewhere, as even the most
saintly of aid agencies will not hazard the lives of its workers. No
government could order its troops into nuclear devastation to give
assistance, no matter how desperate the situation. Survivors in India and
Pakistan will see repulsive, terrifying and hideous scenes never before
witnessed in the world-but there will be no outside eye to observe them,
other than the lenses of unwinding, dispassionate cameras hundreds of miles
above the earth that will record forever the desolation's waste that is the
result of pride, malevolence, intransigence-and nuclear doctrine.

Hauteden
2002-Jun-04, 05:40 AM
On 2002-05-30 01:16, Silas wrote:
Two points in disagreement...

Silas



I understand where you are coming from, but my point has to do more with time. Let say for instance that radioactive materials have been released in an "uncontrolled manner". In what, 1 million years Earth would be back to normal? Geologically speaking that is a short period of time.

As far as self-reproductive inventions are concerned, I like to call them humans /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif, they eventually will cease to function. Again time is my main point here.

It has been suggested via metor strikes that the Earth has been exposed to more destruction than humans can muster. But even with all this destruction the Earth keeps on truckin', getting back to were it left off.

Granted we can change our environment but remember it will always want to revert back to state of equilibrium. And generally speaking that reversal happens rather quickly.


Hauteden

Valiant Dancer
2002-Jun-04, 02:31 PM
On 2002-05-31 07:32, beskeptical wrote:
Vallient D.: 'doctorine' I don't see the computerese shorthand here. Doctrine is shorter.

I usually don't correct anyone's spelling, I misspelled and mis-typed my way through college and I don't think I suffered too much for it. I just thought since I was changing peoples' quotes to be pc, I'd change them to be correctly spelled as well.

As far as studying a religious text, since peoples' interpretation of religious texts are so varied, does it give you knowledge of the people and their culture?

I was just trying to get people to think about the stereotypes they were repeating. Some folks might have lots of insight into another culture, it would be good to hear their thoughts. But many people make judgements based on a very distorted picture that has come from the media and other similar filtered sources.


Not computerese, bad spelling is chronic amognst computer programmers.

By studying the religious text, it gives me insight to the background motivating force in the culture. It also allows me to see the times when they don't adhere to the teachings of thier own document. I don't try to interpret the document deeply. A more general overview tends to get the basic tenants of the religion and core beliefs. Dogma are abberations and deep interpretations of the religious text.

Roy Batty
2002-Jun-04, 02:53 PM
On 2002-06-04 10:31, Valiant Dancer wrote:
Not computerese, bad spelling is chronic amognst computer programmers.

Speek for yuorself! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif
F01: Syntax error at line 7..

Bad Engineer
2002-Jun-04, 07:08 PM
Hello all - I've been a lurker for the past year or so, and figured this would be a good place to step in (why not)

This is actually in reference to the dispute on page two regarding the etymology of the word "Pakistani." I would like to point out the reason Pakistan does not quite follow the same format as Turkistan, Kazakhstan, etc. The word "stan" is a suffix that means 'place' or 'region' (in old Farsi, I believe). So Turkmeni-stan is literally "land of the Turkmens." Pakistan, however, is an interesting exception to this rule - it does not mean, as you would think, the land of Paks. It is actually an acronym - (P)unjab, (A)fghanistan, (K)ashmir = PAK- istan. The land of those three people.

I sort of wandered off the topic - I apologize, but I figured you might want to know.

W.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bad Engineer on 2002-06-04 15:10 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bad Engineer on 2002-06-04 15:13 ]</font>

Prince
2002-Jun-09, 08:18 PM
"Pakistan" or "Pak"? "Pakistani" or "Paki"?
http://www.rense.com/general25/order.htm

2002-Sep-22, 10:18 AM
<a name="20020922.2:06"> page 20020922.2:06 aka updatee20020922
On 2002-06-09 16:18, Prince wrote: To: September 22, 2002
"Pakistan" or "Pak"? "Pakistani" or "Paki"?
http://www.rense.com/general25/order.htm
[/quote]
etymology
{ah etymology}
Shirley More etymology
Sir: its seam to be badly lacking [IMhO]

2002-Oct-06, 03:47 AM
<a name="JD2452553.R"> page JD2452553.R aka AS r
On 2002-09-22 06:18, HUb' wrote: TO: 7 PM AS r
SPACEDAILY EXPRESS
what's wrong with a li
{ link to Space Daily ? }
Islamabad (AFP) Oct 04, 2002
Nuclear neighbours Pakistan
tests Friday, following a re
26]Russia, US To Discuss IS
oscow (AFP) Oct 4, 2002
ussian and US space officia
growing dispute over the f

2002-Oct-06, 02:13 PM
<a name="7:01 A.M."> POST 7:01 A.M. aka ? darkwing
On 2002-05-30 13:44, Darkwing wrote: To: 2-10-06
If you want to know how many nukes India and Pakistan have, and what kinds, check out

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html
__hmm? well ok, though I really DON"T want to know }
What I do want to know .. in the exchange
Wheres DarkWing comming from.. IF you would edit your Profile
then i could tell..The reason I ask is U/O uses Darkwing in their WEB address?
{ line for U O Link when i get back to the 386 }yeah in occupation.. yada adaY

_________________
My web page of links {not current} ('http://expage.com/hubsindx')
GuestBook {to leave a link} ('neptune.guestworld.lycos.com/wgb/wgbsign.dbm?owner=hubbell1')
I see i need to edit my own profile So thanks ? i guess?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HUb' on 2002-10-06 10:16 ]</font>

Caryn
2002-Oct-14, 09:14 PM
This is a very vivid depiction of a nuclear attack.
http://www.detailshere.com/nukeattackinfo.htm