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P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 04:14 PM
You may give your answer in a post... but this Poll is set for private.

I voted "Myself."

Ara Pacis
2012-Jun-17, 05:24 PM
I recall reading that an insane person thinks he or she is sane, while an actually sane person sometimes has doubts.

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 05:46 PM
I recall reading that an insane person thinks he or she is sane, while an actually sane person sometimes has doubts.

Thanks for that. Now I don't feel so bad about the times I look in the mirror and say, "Man, you're a nut-case!" :lol:

P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 06:18 PM
I recall reading that an insane person thinks he or she is sane, while an actually sane person sometimes has doubts.

Why didn't you vote in the Poll?


Thanks for that. Now I don't feel so bad about the times I look in the mirror and say, "Man, you're a nut-case!" :lol:

Are you just joking... or do you really think you're a "nut-case?"
Are you going to vote in the Poll?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 06:37 PM
Are you just joking... or do you really think you're a "nut-case?"
Are you going to vote in the Poll?

It was a lighthearted way of saying that I think it's healthy for one to sometimes question the rationality of their own thoughts and actions.

I didn't vote in the poll because I feel the choices are too simplistic to be of any value. Sanity is tough enough to pinpoint without reducing it to a dichotomy.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-17, 06:41 PM
Are we using the legal definition of "sane" or the conventional, inaccurate one?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 06:55 PM
Are we using the legal definition of "sane" or the conventional, inaccurate one?

The Poll question is... "Using your own definition... who's the most sane person you know?"

Ara Pacis
2012-Jun-17, 07:00 PM
Are we using the legal definition of "sane" or the conventional, inaccurate one?And furthermore, after we vote, how can we use the results in our plans for world domination.

Ara Pacis
2012-Jun-17, 07:11 PM
Why didn't you vote in the Poll?I never vote right away. It goes against my idea of OpSec.

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 07:21 PM
The Poll question is... "Using your own definition... who's the most sane person you know?"

Since you don't know what definition we are using, how can the poll results be meaningful?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 07:23 PM
It was a lighthearted way of saying that I think it's healthy for one to sometimes question the rationality of their own thoughts and actions.

By "healthy"... do you mean mentally healthy?
And do you sometimes question the rationality of your own thoughts and actions?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 07:48 PM
Since you don't know what definition we are using, how can the poll results be meaningful?

This is a personal evaluation using personal definitions. Either you think you are the sanest person you know... or you don't. And already... I think the result of the Poll is interesting.

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 08:24 PM
By "healthy"... do you mean mentally healthy?


Well, I didn't mean that it would make my foot stop hurting :), so yes, of course.


And do you sometimes question the rationality of your own thoughts and actions?

Yes, sometimes when I react to something emotionally rather than logically, I may question the rationality of my response.

How about you -- do you sometimes question the rationality of your own thoughts and actions?


This is a personal evaluation using personal definitions. Either you think you are the sanest person you know... or you don't.

To me it's not one or the other. The third choice is "I don't feel the need to make that determination." since you didn't include that choice, I didn't participate.

jokergirl
2012-Jun-17, 08:30 PM
We're all mad here.

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 08:40 PM
We're all mad here.

Yep. It's not a matter of 'are we or aren't we', it's just a matter of degree. http://home.comcast.net/~mcluster/crazy.gif

P Timmy
2012-Jun-17, 10:37 PM
originally posted by Luckmeister
How about you -- do you sometimes question the rationality of your own thoughts and actions?


Yes... I think I could be wrong about everything... how about you?


originally posted by P Timmy
This is a personal evaluation using personal definitions. Either you think you are the sanest person you know... or you don't.


originally posted by Luckmeister
"I don't feel the need to make that determination."


Life can be scary/confusing... etc.


We're all mad here.

So how about you... did you give your opinion about yourself in the Poll?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-17, 11:21 PM
Yes... I think I could be wrong about everything... how about you?

Wrong about everything implies that human reality is totally an illusion which is an area of metaphysics I have no desire to enter in this thread, nor do I want to use the terms right or wrong which imply absolutes. It's rather a matter of judging the relative appropriateness of one's thoughts and actions. There's lots of shades of grey and personal evaluation involved in that.

ETA: Another thing -- My level of sanity (if you want to call it that) varies with what is going on in my life. Sometimes I feel like I have the world by the tail and at other times I feel like I'm barely coping with the problems life brings.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-18, 12:09 AM
Since you don't know what definition we are using, how can the poll results be meaningful?

Naturally, it doesn't matter; the poll results aren't meaningful in any way. It's yet another ill-conceived poll that won't actually produce significant data. I don't even think it would be all that interesting, because definitions of "sane" are probably widely varying. I am also one of those people whose opinion will vary by what's going on. I know that I'm not the most mentally healthy of my friends, but I would also use the legal definition of "sane," which is a bit binary. So the answer is "I'm pretty sure all my friends are sane, and arguing about who is the 'most sane' is worthless."

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-18, 01:05 AM
So the answer is "I'm pretty sure all my friends are sane, and arguing about who is the 'most sane' is worthless."

http://home.comcast.net/~mcluster/thumbsup.gif

WaxRubiks
2012-Jun-18, 02:28 AM
If someone was saner than you, how would you know?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-18, 03:18 AM
If someone was saner than you, how would you know?

The Poll is based on personal opinion... and I don't know of anybody who I think is more sane than me.

What I'm basing sanity on is... not being superstitious/being logical.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-18, 03:43 AM
But that's not anyone's definition of sane that I've ever heard before.

Gemini
2012-Jun-18, 03:44 AM
Well, I for three, are of quite sound mind. Indeed we are!

jokergirl
2012-Jun-18, 06:30 AM
So how about you... did you give your opinion about yourself in the Poll?

No, because there was no answer in there that I agreed with. I certainly do not think of myself as saner than others; and there is no specific other person I think of as more sane than anyone else either. If there were, I would think that they are probably quite insane for attempting to be so.

;)

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-18, 06:53 AM
The Poll is based on personal opinion... and I don't know of anybody who I think is more sane than me.

What I'm basing sanity on is... not being superstitious/being logical.

Here's the problem with that as I see it: If I thought of myself as the only person I know with no beliefs that could be labeled superstitious, and therefore concluded that I was the only sane one, that would be an example of megalomania, which to me is a stronger indication of insanity than superstition.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-18, 03:30 PM
I certainly do not think of myself as saner than others;


Do you think all people are equal to... or more sane than you?


The Poll is based on personal opinion... and I don't know of anybody who I think is more sane than me.

What I'm basing sanity on is... not being superstitious/being logical.


But that's not anyone's definition of sane that I've ever heard before.

The Poll is a self evaluation about ones sanity... which is not necessarily based on someone Else's definition of sanity.


Here's the problem with that as I see it: If I thought of myself as the only person I know with no beliefs that could be labeled superstitious, and therefore concluded that I was the only sane one, that would be an example of megalomania, which to me is a stronger indication of insanity than superstition.

Yes I agree.
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders. If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different.

And even though we're in the minority... there are many people who are not superstitious... but then it comes down to the logic of ones world view... and I don't know of any world view which seems more sane/logical than mine... but I also realize that there could be many... and that I could be wrong.

Swift
2012-Jun-18, 05:13 PM
Get Fuzzy - Differently Sane (http://www.weeklystorybook.com/.a/6a0105369e6edf970b0134801cd1f1970c-800wi)

Gillianren
2012-Jun-18, 05:47 PM
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders.

Why?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-18, 06:09 PM
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders. If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different.

With many mental disorders, the one suffering from it is the last one that should be diagnosing its existence. (This is a general comment; I'm not implying that you suffer from one.)


And even though we're in the minority... there are many people who are not superstitious...

As I've stated before, I think we should be careful about assigning absolutes. Some people are only slightly superstitious in one area and it's not always easy to define a belief as superstition. For example, some consider it bad luck to walk under a ladder, but I consider it just not smart because something might fall on your head. After all, that ladder is probably there for a reason.

Is it lack of sanity or is it a lack of intelligence and/or education that causes people to adhere to superstition? I usually think of it more as the latter.


... but then it comes down to the logic of ones world view... and I don't know of any world view which seems more sane/logical than mine...

Be careful about thinking you have the world all figured out. When we think that, it has a nasty habit of proving us wrong.


... but I also realize that there could be many... and that I could be wrong.

Good!! Always leave that possibility open.

You emphasize the importance of logic in your posts. Guiding one's life purely by logic is not only probably impossible for a human but also not advisable. Our emotions are a large part of what makes us creative, artistic, sympathetic, empathetic, etc. They also come into play when defining our morality. One of the difficulties in life is finding the balance between logic and emotion that works best for us.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-18, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by P Timmy
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders.


Why?

My definition is specific to me... and I don't have those type of disorders that I know of.

Ara Pacis
2012-Jun-18, 07:33 PM
My definition is specific to me... and I don't have those type of disorders that I know of.Your avatar suggests otherwise.

ShinAce
2012-Jun-18, 08:27 PM
The Poll is based on personal opinion... and I don't know of anybody who I think is more sane than me.

I voted for someone else. The zaniest is without a doubt P Timmy.
What is interesting is that 4 people voted for themselves. I have a feeling that at least 3 of them are lying! Will you please begin an "are you a liar" poll?

If a person has multiple personalities, how do they choose which one gets the myself vote?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-18, 08:41 PM
What is interesting is that 4 people voted for themselves. I have a feeling that at least 3 of them are lying!

No, they said, "Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the sanest one of all?" and the face in the mirror said, "Why you are, of course." Everyone knows mirrors don't lie.

Swift
2012-Jun-18, 09:05 PM
No, they said, "Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the sanest one of all?" and the face in the mirror said, "Why you are, of course." Everyone knows mirrors don't lie.
Of course, talking to mirrors is a sign of insanity. ;)

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-18, 09:18 PM
Of course, talking to mirrors is a sign of insanity. ;)

Ah but the face in the mirror is you, so you're really talking to yourself, which many psychologists say is normal.... at least, that's what I keep telling myself. :shifty:

Hlafordlaes
2012-Jun-18, 09:39 PM
Mindful of the Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), I voted others as being more sane.

I can think of lots of saner folks, like that ex-fighter pilot I worked with back at Raytheon. Another pilot I met there flew big C-17s or something like that in 'Nam; he's definitely a lot crazier than I am, tho he does know some great places for ribs outside D-FW.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-18, 10:47 PM
My definition is specific to me... and I don't have those type of disorders that I know of.

But that's not what you said. You said you're assuming they don't exist. And if what you meant is that you're assuming you don't have one, well, neither do most people. Is that all it takes to be "most sane"?

ShinAce
2012-Jun-19, 12:13 AM
But that's not what you said. You said you're assuming they don't exist. And if what you meant is that you're assuming you don't have one, well, neither do most people. Is that all it takes to be "most sane"?

That and an awesome shower singing voice(when home alone, of course).

John Mendenhall
2012-Jun-19, 01:53 AM
Sanest person? George Carlin. Especially when he was crazy.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by P Timmy
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders. If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different.



"if what you meant is that you're assuming you don't have one, well, neither do most people. Is that all it takes to be "most sane"?

To be clear... I made no claim that I'm "most sane"... what I do say is... I don't know of anyone that I think is more sane than me. And yes... I don't have a textbook-defined mental disorder that I know of... and I didn't include textbook-defined mental disorders as a part of my personal definition of sanity because it doesn't apply to me.

This is the Poll question---"Using your own definition... who's the most sane person you know?"

And as I posted earlier:::

"The Poll is a self evaluation about ones sanity... which is not necessarily based on someone Else's definition of sanity."

"What I'm basing sanity on is... not being superstitious/being logical."

"And even though we're in the minority... there are many people who are not superstitious... but then it comes down to the logic of ones world view... and I don't know of any world view which seems more sane/logical than mine... but I also realize that there could be many... and that I could be wrong."

So no... just because one doesn't have a textbook-defined mental disorder... does not necessarily qualify them as being more sane than me.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-19, 03:23 AM
So . . . by your definition of sanity, being mentally ill doesn't matter? Really?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 03:33 AM
Originally Posted by P Timmy
...I don't have those type of disorders that I know of.


Your avatar suggests otherwise.

Oh no... it's merely a double image of me to signify that my thinking is twice as good as the average ruggedly hansom guy... and I also use it as a recruiting poster for my church (I'm NACA).



What is interesting is that 4 people voted for themselves. I have a feeling that at least 3 of them are lying! Will you please begin an "are you a liar" poll?


That would make a very good Poll :clap: I'd be proud to vote in... but go ahead... I won't steal your well deserved thunder.



If a person has multiple personalities, how do they choose which one gets the myself vote?

Not a problem... create sock-puppets and post away :cool:

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 03:50 AM
So . . . by your definition of sanity, being mentally ill doesn't matter? Really?

It doesn't matter as it applies to how I voted in the Poll because I don't have those disorders... but as I said... if I did have that type of disorder I would have voted differently in the Poll.

I'm not psychic but I have a feeling that still doesn't scratch your itch :(

Gillianren
2012-Jun-19, 06:31 AM
No, it doesn't, because I don't think you see the double-think you're using. Let me try again.

Your definition of "sanity" does not include mental illness. This means that you do not exclude people from sanity if they are mentally ill. (To be fair, nor do I, quite; my own mental illness does not influence my sanity from a legal perspective.) The fact that you do not have a mental illness is not at issue; I don't know you well enough to have an opinion on the subject. However, if your lack of a mental illness is one of your factors in believing that you are one of the sanest people you know, you are using mental illness or lack thereof as a criterion. You are using your lack as a criterion in establishing your own sanity.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 12:20 PM
...if your lack of a mental illness is one of your factors in believing that you are one of the sanest people you know, you are using mental illness or lack thereof as a criterion. You are using your lack as a criterion in establishing your own sanity.


I don't know of anyone who I think is more sane than me... and the example below might answer your question:::

If all other factors were equal (logical/not superstitious... same world view that I have... etc.)... but this person had a mental illness... I would not consider them to be more sane than me.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by P Timmy
And even though we're in the minority... there are many people who are not superstitious...



Luckmeister
Some people are only slightly superstitious in one area and it's not always easy to define a belief as superstition. For example, some consider it bad luck to walk under a ladder, but I consider it just not smart because something might fall on your head. After all, that ladder is probably there for a reason.


Slightly superstitious is superstitious... and in my view... the less superstition the better... and I agree... I also don't consider using logic to avoid a potentially dangerous situation as being superstitious.


Luckmeister
Is it lack of sanity or is it a lack of intelligence and/or education that causes people to adhere to superstition? I usually think of it more as the latter.

Whatever the cause... I don't see superstitious behavior as being sane.


Originally posted by P Timmy
... but then it comes down to the logic of ones world view... and I don't know of any world view which seems more sane/logical than mine...


Luckmeister
Be careful about thinking you have the world all figured out. When we think that, it has a nasty habit of proving us wrong.

That sounds a bit superstitious... in that... I don't censor my thoughts out of a fear of being proved wrong... nevertheless... I don't claim to have it all figured out and I highly doubt that anyone does... and unfortunately... nastiness is a part of existence.


Originally posted by P Timmy
... but I also realize that there could be many... and that I could be wrong.


Luckmeister
Good!! Always leave that possibility open.

You emphasize the importance of logic in your posts. Guiding one's life purely by logic is not only probably impossible for a human but also not advisable. Our emotions are a large part of what makes us creative, artistic, sympathetic, empathetic, etc. They also come into play when defining our morality. One of the difficulties in life is finding the balance between logic and emotion that works best for us.

I think logic is preferable to being illogical/superstitious... and I haven't experienced a problem with logic having a negative impact on the things you mentioned... so apparently... I don't feel that I have "difficulties" with logic/emotions/morality.

jokergirl
2012-Jun-19, 02:02 PM
I don't know of anyone who I think is more sane than me... and the example below might answer your question:::

If all other factors were equal (logical/not superstitious... same world view that I have... etc.)... but this person had a mental illness... I would not consider them to be more sane than me.

Then your definition of sanity DOES include mental illness.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 02:31 PM
Then your definition of sanity DOES include mental illness.

Since mental illness doesn't apply to me... it's a given that I consider myself more sane than someone who is mentally ill... so in that regard... yes... mental illness is a factor in how I voted in the Poll... and thanks... I think that may be what Gillianren needed me to make more clear.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-19, 06:47 PM
Does it bother you that your definition of sanity is, shall we say, unique?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 07:59 PM
Does it bother you that your definition of sanity is, shall we say, unique?

Not that I'm aware of.

The Poll is based on peoples personal definition of sanity... which is a personal evaluation of how one feels about their sanity... so whether or not ones definition is considered correct by others is irrelevant for the purpose of the Poll.

Edit:::
The questions below have been withdrawn.

Do you know of someone else who is more sane than you?
Based on what you know about me... do you think you're more sane than me?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-19, 08:28 PM
Based on what you know about me... do you think you're more sane than me?

None of us know anything about you other than what you've chosen to project. I, for one, wouldn't dream of making that kind of judgment based solely on that.

ShinAce
2012-Jun-19, 08:29 PM
Click on link in post #36, reread thread, then have a good laugh. It basically says that the incompetent think they're doing great(aka, sane) yet the competent underestimate their ability(aka, question their sanity). Like how an 8 year old thinks their next hit at bat will be a home run, yet a pro wonders until they see it fly. Babe Ruth exempted, but he was crazy.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 09:24 PM
Based on what you know about me... do you think you're more sane than me?


None of us know anything about you other than what you've chosen to project...

Obviously... and this isn't a mater of life and death... it's the "Off-Topic Babbling" area... and my question is little more than a game which could lead to interesting discussion... but maybe your refusal won't influence Gillianren too much and she/he(?) will answer.

DoggerDan
2012-Jun-19, 09:26 PM
Whenever I find someone whom I think is more sane than I am, I stop to consider why, and incorporate their bag of tricks into my own bag of tricks. At that point, they're no longer any more sane than I am.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 09:32 PM
Click on link in post #36, reread thread, then have a good laugh. It basically says that the incompetent think they're doing great(aka, sane)...

That may help Gillianren decide whether or not to answer my questons!

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-19, 09:35 PM
Obviously... and this isn't a mater of life and death... it's the "Off-Topic Babbling" area... and my question is little more than a game which could lead to interesting discussion... but maybe your refusal won't influence Gillianren too much and she/he(?) will answer.

Off-Topic Babbling or not, I consider it inappropriate, if not irresponsible to be judging another's sanity publicly on BAUT. And I doubt that my comments will significantly influence Gillian's response. I have a high regard for her ability to think for herself.

Buttercup
2012-Jun-19, 09:43 PM
Me, myself and Irene. :)

(!!zoinks!!) <--ignore; not a symptom anything :p

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 09:48 PM
Whenever I find someone whom I think is more sane than I am, I stop to consider why, and incorporate their bag of tricks into my own bag of tricks. At that point, they're no longer any more sane than I am.

That's what I'd like to discuss with people who know someone who is more sane than they are... ie... is the insanity that you recognize about yourself unfixable... are you trying to fix it... do you not want to fix it.?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-19, 09:54 PM
Whenever I find someone whom I think is more sane than I am, I stop to consider why, and incorporate their bag of tricks into my own bag of tricks. At that point, they're no longer any more sane than I am.

That makes me think of one of my favorite social psychology quotes:

"I am not what I think I am and I am not what you think I am; I am what I think that you think I am."

-- C. H. Cooley

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 09:59 PM
Off-Topic Babbling or not, I consider it inappropriate, if not irresponsible to be judging another's sanity publicly on BAUT.

I'm convinced and agree wholeheartedly!



And I doubt that my comments will significantly influence Gillian's response. I have a high regard for her ability to think for herself.

Since you have influenced me to change my mind... I will not accept disregard the response if Gillian does reply!

ShinAce
2012-Jun-19, 10:04 PM
That's what I'd like to discuss with people who know someone who is more sane than they are

I'd say all of my ex girlfriends, save one, are more sane than me. If I was the most sanest person in the whole wide world, wouldn't that mean that all my ex's are less sane than I? Did you consider the insult you project on others when you call yourself the "most sane I know"? Is it not a sign of insanity to argue that your sanity is of the highest order? Have you seen American psycho? Quite the bag of tricks our psycho had at his disposal. Simply mimicking others seems to be a sign of insecurity and wanted to be accepted. Why do you(the most sane you know) want to be accepted by people who can't even match your god given sanity? That's insanity right there.

I personally think that I'm neither sane nor insane, but prone to moments of both. I think a healthy sense of right and wrong is a million times more important than any consideration of sanity.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 10:08 PM
Me, myself and Irene. :) (!!zoinks!!) <--ignore; not a symptom anything :p

LOL... Do you know what "zoinks" means in Swahili :rofl:

Buttercup
2012-Jun-19, 10:12 PM
LOL... Do you know what "zoinks" means in Swahili :rofl:

:( No.

Dare I ask?? You can send me a private note; I'm curious.

You do know that Shaggy said "Zoinks!" a lot on Scooby-Doo. That's where I heard it from childhood...

P Timmy
2012-Jun-19, 10:17 PM
:( No.

Dare I ask?? You can send me a private note; I'm curious.


I have no idea... I was just curious if you knew :D

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-19, 11:09 PM
That's what I'd like to discuss with people who know someone who is more sane than they are... ie... is the insanity that you recognize about yourself unfixable... are you trying to fix it... do you not want to fix it.?

Now those are interesting questions. First, I'll replace your term insanity with illogical behavior to avoid a problem with definitions.

Is the illogical behavior that I recognize about myself fixable? Maybe, if it's something I want to fix. Sometimes I find it to be the appropriate behavior for the occasion. Strong emotional reactions are frequently illogical but may be the most effective way to make a point or induce desired action in myself or others.

Am I trying to fix it? Do I want to fix it? That totally depends on the situation in retrospect. If I felt my behavior was a mistake in judgment, yes. Trial and error is the primary way we learn when to choose logic over emotion.

Now, let me ask you this: Do you strive to eliminate emotional responses from your behavior? If so, have you truly accomplished it? I cannot imagine an emotionless life and would never want it.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-20, 12:44 AM
Gillian, who is a she, makes it a policy never to speculate about sanity--or mental health, which is different--based on a few posts on a bulletin board. That would itself be an irrational act. What's more, what if I did think something you posted proved that your brain was, shall we say, not working up to capacity? Would I be so foolish as to risk saying it and getting suspended over it? That would also be irrational. What's more, as I've said, by any definition of sanity that is used in the real world, sanity is binary. You either are or you aren't. There is no "more sane." Therefore, the only way to be less sane than I know myself to be is to be insane. I'm not sure I know anyone who is truly insane; even my sister the sociopath knows that society thinks her actions are wrong. She just doesn't care, which is what shows that she's a sociopath.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-20, 01:43 AM
"what if I did think something you posted proved that your brain was, shall we say, not working up to capacity? Would I be so foolish as to risk saying it and getting suspended over it? That would also be irrational.


I don't want to break a rule or cause suspensions so I withdraw the question.
Thanks for the "heads-up."

P Timmy
2012-Jun-21, 04:08 AM
I'd say all of my ex girlfriends, save one, are more sane than me. If I was the most sanest person in the whole wide world, wouldn't that mean that all my ex's are less sane than I?

Yes :confused:


ShinAce
Did you consider the insult you project on others when you call yourself the "most sane I know"?


It's just my opinion... and I've clearly stated that I realize I could be wrong... but if I knew of someone that fragile I would give a private and/or public apology.


ShinAce
Is it not a sign of insanity to argue that your sanity is of the highest order?


I think that could very well be the case.


ShinAce
Have you seen American psycho? Quite the bag of tricks our psycho had at his disposal. Simply mimicking others seems to be a sign of insecurity and wanted to be accepted. Why do you(the most sane you know) want to be accepted by people who can't even match your god given sanity? That's insanity right there.


No I didn't see that movie(?) but it sounds good and I'll add it to my "Library movie" list.

Well... I'm just being me... and I'm here for fun/enjoyment which includes discussing controversial issues that interest me... and if I am insane as several posts in this thread have alluded to... I'm OK with it.


ShinAce
I personally think that I'm neither sane nor insane, but prone to moments of both. I think a healthy sense of right and wrong is a million times more important than any consideration of sanity.

By "healthy sense of right and wrong"... I take it that you mean a sense of right and wrong which conforms to societal norms... and that sounds like a good thing... as long as you're a sane/logical enough person to be a good person.

Personally... happiness is at the top of my list... and everything else just seems to fall into place.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-21, 04:23 AM
First, I'll replace your term insanity with illogical behavior to avoid a problem with definitions.

Is the illogical behavior that I recognize about myself fixable? Maybe, if it's something I want to fix. Sometimes I find it to be the appropriate behavior for the occasion. Strong emotional reactions are frequently illogical but may be the most effective way to make a point or induce desired action in myself or others.


Please give an example of that.



Am I trying to fix it? Do I want to fix it? That totally depends on the situation in retrospect. If I felt my behavior was a mistake in judgment, yes. Trial and error is the primary way we learn when to choose logic over emotion.

Now, let me ask you this: Do you strive to eliminate emotional responses from your behavior? If so, have you truly accomplished it?


One of the least things I strive at is changing my behavior... I merely accept myself as I happen to be... so no... I don't strive to eliminate emotions from my behavior... but I do use logic to temper my emotions at times... most recently when my wife put a three year old little girl on the phone who wanted to say hi to me... and as I was listening to her sweet/happy little voice I was thinking... I'm so glad the difficult time your mother is currently having doesn't seem to be affecting you in a negative way... but at the same time I was saddened because I knew that could change at any moment... but I let that emotion go because it was illogical to continue to feel so sad about something which was beyond my control to change.



I cannot imagine an emotionless life and would never want it.

I suspect that in the not so distant future... emotions will be replaced by logic... and things like "emotions" will be experienced in a controlled way.

WaxRubiks
2012-Jun-21, 06:11 AM
logic is limited if you don't know everything about the Universe, and I don't think we ever can, or will know everything about the Universe.
With science, you have to use part of the Universe to analyse another part, like a microscope for example,and of course the human mind, so how can you discover everything about the Universe when you don't fully understand the tools that you are using to analyse it?

P Timmy
2012-Jun-21, 12:17 PM
...how can you discover everything about the Universe when you don't fully understand the tools that you are using to analyse it?

If that type of understanding ever does become possible... for current humans to comprehend it would be about as likely as a puppy becoming a rocket scientist.

The Backroad Astronomer
2012-Jun-21, 02:03 PM
I don't really know if I am sane or not. I coming to realization that I might have social anxiety disorder and at times in my life episodes of depression. The anxiety disorder might even be genetic becuase they are plenty of the members of my family that are not the most sociable people on they planet. Good people but they tend to work in jobs were they can do a lot of it alone.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-21, 02:54 PM
I don't really know if I am sane or not. I coming to realization that I might have social anxiety disorder and at times in my life episodes of depression.

I doubt that anyone is perfect... but do you know of anyone that you think is more sane than you?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-21, 05:48 PM
First, I'll replace your term insanity with illogical behavior to avoid a problem with definitions.

Is the illogical behavior that I recognize about myself fixable? Maybe, if it's something I want to fix. Sometimes I find it to be the appropriate behavior for the occasion. Strong emotional reactions are frequently illogical but may be the most effective way to make a point or induce desired action in myself or others.

Please give an example of that.

Alright, I have a friend who had the habit of setting a time to do something and then not show up or be very late, without calling to inform people of his change of plans. I discussed it with him but it did no good so I finally went ballistic one time he did it. I'm a pretty easygoing guy so it shocked him.

Looking back on it, I considered it appropriate for the situation because it got his attention and since then he's been much more considerate. You might say that it was a logical decision for me to express the anger but I didn't plan to act that way -- it just came out.


One of the least things I strive at is changing my behavior... I merely accept myself as I happen to be... so no... I don't strive to eliminate emotions from my behavior...

Are you sure about that? I constantly monitor my behavior and interaction with others as does everyone else I know well in my personal life. Throughout my adult life I have continued to consider myself a work in progress. At what point in life did you think you no longer needed to evaluate your own behavior?


...but I do use logic to temper my emotions at times.

Okay, then you do monitor and alter your behavior to some extent.


I suspect that in the not so distant future... emotions will be replaced by logic... and things like "emotions" will be experienced in a controlled way.

I sincerely hope that will be way into the future.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-21, 07:18 PM
I don't really know if I am sane or not. I coming to realization that I might have social anxiety disorder and at times in my life episodes of depression. The anxiety disorder might even be genetic becuase they are plenty of the members of my family that are not the most sociable people on they planet. Good people but they tend to work in jobs were they can do a lot of it alone.

As I've said, that in no way changes your basic sanity. You may not be the most mentally healthy person in the world--if the social anxiety and depression severely influence your life, you might want to find a therapist--but there's a difference in legal parlance between "mentally ill" and "insane," and the medical profession doesn't use "insane" at all. And, yes, most mental illnesses are at least partially genetic.

HenrikOlsen
2012-Jun-21, 09:19 PM
Yes I agree.
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders. If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different.
It's a fundamental part of logic that if you assume something that is false, you can prove anything.

And since there demonstratably are textbook-defined mental disorders, you've invalidated any of your arguments right there.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-22, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by P Timmy
My definition assumes that there are no textbook-defined mental disorders. If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different.




"since there demonstratably are textbook-defined mental disorders"

Of course there are.

That statement was in reply to a post by Luckmeister which suggested that behavior such as mine might suggest megalomania... and I was attempting to explain that my personal definition did not include textbook-defined mental disorders because I don't have such a disorder that I know of... as the statement that followed corroborates:::

"If I knew I had such a disorder my vote in the Poll would have been different."

P Timmy
2012-Jun-22, 02:30 AM
I have a friend who had the habit of setting a time to do something and then not show up or be very late, without calling to inform people of his change of plans. I discussed it with him but it did no good so I finally went ballistic one time he did it. I'm a pretty easygoing guy so it shocked him.

Looking back on it, I considered it appropriate for the situation because it got his attention and since then he's been much more considerate. You might say that it was a logical decision for me to express the anger but I didn't plan to act that way -- it just came out.


Even though it got you what you wanted on that occasion... I don't see involuntary/uncontrolled/ballistic behavior as being an asset.


Originally posted by P Timmy
One of the least things I strive at is changing my behavior... I merely accept myself as I happen to be... so no... I don't strive to eliminate emotions from my behavior... but I do use logic to temper my emotions at times...




Are you sure about that?


Yes... I didn't say it didn't occur... I said "it's one of the least things I strive at"... and I accept myself... ie... I don't tend to beat myself up/punish myself over mistakes.


Luckmeister
I constantly monitor my behavior and interaction with others as does everyone else I know well in my personal life. Throughout my adult life I have continued to consider myself a work in progress. At what point in life did you think you no longer needed to evaluate your own behavior?


Change is inevitable... but that I'm a "work in progress" never crosses my mind... hence... one of the least things I strive at is changing my behavior... but as I said... "I do use logic to temper my emotions at times."


Originally posted by P Timmy
I suspect that in the not so distant future... emotions will be replaced by logic... and things like "emotions" will be experienced in a controlled way.



Luckmeister
I sincerely hope that will be way into the future.


The "generation gap" is alive and well... but there's no stopping evolution.

Some of the younger people in this group may live long enough to have a shot at "immortality"... I'm in my sixties... but hopefully I will live long enough to see undeniable evidence of the future unfolding as I expect.

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-22, 03:20 AM
I have a friend who had the habit of setting a time to do something and then not show up or be very late, without calling to inform people of his change of plans. I discussed it with him but it did no good so I finally went ballistic one time he did it. I'm a pretty easygoing guy so it shocked him.

Looking back on it, I considered it appropriate for the situation because it got his attention and since then he's been much more considerate. You might say that it was a logical decision for me to express the anger but I didn't plan to act that way -- it just came out.

Even though it got you what you wanted on that occasion... I don't see involuntary/uncontrolled/ballistic behavior as being an asset.

"Involuntary/uncontrolled/ballistic behavior" is an extreme way of describing it. I didn't explain to you what, for me, is "ballistic" and I was definitely not totally out of control. Yeah, it got me "what I wanted" but that was to change his behavior in a way that was beneficial to him in his relationships with more people than just me. As I said, it was a last resort when discussion didn't work. My action did not hurt our friendship and I didn't do it in public where it would have embarrassed him. I know I did the right thing at the time but it is by no means my default way of solving a problem.

Yes, I know your philosophy -- anger is bad... it's never the right thing to do... it should be eliminated from our behavior. I agree that there is far too much anger in the world. I just seldom use the words always and never when discussing complex human behavior.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-22, 07:37 AM
Further, I put it to you that someone with such an idiosyncratic definition of "sane" does not know enough about psychology to reasonably discuss human emotion in any kind of meaningful way. Nor can they be assured of having studied enough about human behaviour to know how people do and don't react to stimuli.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-22, 01:21 PM
Further, I put it to you that someone with such an idiosyncratic definition of "sane" does not know enough about psychology to reasonably discuss human emotion in any kind of meaningful way. Nor can they be assured of having studied enough about human behaviour to know how people do and don't react to stimuli.

Oh yeah... well how about you start a thread "on those issues" and test it out.

PS
If your post wasn't directed at me... please disregard this post ;)

Jens
2012-Jun-22, 02:33 PM
I'm not sure I know anyone who is truly insane; even my sister the sociopath knows that society thinks her actions are wrong. She just doesn't care, which is what shows that she's a sociopath.

I could imagine that a person might have a variety of reasons for not caring that society thinks their actions are wrong, and not all of them indicate that the person is a sociopath. For example, I'm certain that people like Nelson Mandela are aware that the dominant society did not approve of their actions, and yet they don't care. That condition alone doesn't necessarily make the person a sociopath. Obviously I don't know your situation, but is your sister in a situation where's she's a serial killer or something, and the people of the society are clearly aware that she is a sociopath?

ToSeek
2012-Jun-22, 02:36 PM
Oh yeah... well how about you start a thread "on those issues" and test it out.

PS
If your post wasn't directed at me... please disregard this post ;)

P Timmy, your response is pushing the "Politeness and Decorum" rule here at BAUT. "Oh yeah" is not really the tone we want to see here.

P Timmy
2012-Jun-22, 05:43 PM
P Timmy, your response is pushing the "Politeness and Decorum" rule here at BAUT. "Oh yeah" is not really the tone we want to see here.

I thought the "wink emoticon" at the end of the post would show that the "Oh Yeah" was meant in jest... but lesson learned... thanks.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-22, 06:45 PM
I could imagine that a person might have a variety of reasons for not caring that society thinks their actions are wrong, and not all of them indicate that the person is a sociopath. For example, I'm certain that people like Nelson Mandela are aware that the dominant society did not approve of their actions, and yet they don't care. That condition alone doesn't necessarily make the person a sociopath. Obviously I don't know your situation, but is your sister in a situation where's she's a serial killer or something, and the people of the society are clearly aware that she is a sociopath?

Nelson Mandela believed his society was wrong and worked to change it. He also agreed with some of the things his society thought was wrong, and it's specifically in those areas that sociopathy generally applies. My little sister isn't a serial killer; she's a kleptomaniac. It's also true that Nelson Mandela wanted to improve society for other people as well as himself, whereas my little sister doesn't entirely seem to recognize that other people have needs.

BigDon
2012-Jun-22, 08:46 PM
Take one human brain, mix well, come up with me.

So starting thirty years ago with a tramatic brain injury that crunched my left temporal lobe and left me all seizurey, then whatever it was that messed up after my last bad seizure last August. For a week my right eye didn't want to track at the same speed as the left eye and if I wasn't specifically paying attention to it, my right eye would keep centering itself. Had to hide in my room for a week. Now I have occipital lobe seizures three or four times a month instead of every two years or so.

I think my brain is slagging.

HenrikOlsen
2012-Jun-22, 08:54 PM
Sane and insane are definitely layman's terms and they aren't even a distinction as the words as commonly used are not antonyms.

Noclevername
2012-Jun-26, 09:27 PM
Where's the "none of the above" vote?

HenrikOlsen
2012-Jun-26, 09:40 PM
And what happened to "Beer"?

Luckmeister
2012-Jun-26, 09:53 PM
And what happened to "Beer"?

I drank it. My exchange of posts with P Timmy drove me to drink. ;)

starcanuck64
2012-Jun-26, 10:04 PM
"There's no such thing as sanity, and that's the sanest fact"- Mark Knopfler

Noclevername
2012-Jun-28, 03:08 PM
P. Timmy thinks of himself as sane. I, who have numerous neurological and psychological disorders, also think of myself as sane. If both definitions are considered equally valid for purposes of answering the poll, it renders the poll meaningless, as what is really being asked is "Do you feel that you or others meet an arbitrary, subjective definition?"

Swift
2012-Jun-28, 03:22 PM
"Do you feel that you or others meet an arbitrary, subjective definition?"
Personally, I meet about 63% of all arbitrary, subjective definitions. :D

starcanuck64
2012-Jun-28, 05:10 PM
From what I recall sanity is a legal concept, not a psychiatric. You can be deemed mentally incompetent, but not diagnosed as being sane or saner than than someone else.

Gillianren
2012-Jun-28, 07:16 PM
Yes, I've mentioned that about four times now. The medical profession does not use the term "sane." Which is why I started referring to myself as legally crazy, actually. I'm mentally ill enough to qualify for disability, but I'm not insane.

WaxRubiks
2012-Jun-29, 12:09 AM
obviously P Timmy doesn't mind flying more missions.

starcanuck64
2012-Jun-29, 12:54 AM
Yes, I've mentioned that about four times now. The medical profession does not use the term "sane." Which is why I started referring to myself as legally crazy, actually. I'm mentally ill enough to qualify for disability, but I'm not insane.

I always loved the line from The Tick series, "Don't worry you're not going crazy, you're just going sane in an insane world".

It was when I asked my psychiatrist years ago if I was insane that he told me about it being a legal not medical term. I already knew I had serious psychiatric issues(being in hospital at the time).

Gillianren
2012-Jun-29, 03:16 AM
Well, that will do it, yes. I've never been hospitalized, myself, for which I count myself lucky.

starcanuck64
2012-Jun-29, 04:54 PM
It's been years and what seems like a lifetime ago for me.

What I remember most was the lack of any real sense of meaning, which I guess could be a definition for insanity. Now just getting up for another day is cool, and not really knowing what the day holds but taking it as it comes, which for me is how I define sanity.

The Backroad Astronomer
2012-Jul-03, 04:09 PM
One word I really do not like is normal. There is no such thing really but people think it is and some people they have they righ to make everyone "normal". But what is normal, normal to one person is talking all the time and working 9 to 5 while for someone else normal is being quiet and working nights. It is all subjective.

BigDon
2012-Jul-03, 05:18 PM
Well, that will do it, yes. I've never been hospitalized, myself, for which I count myself lucky.

Oh Miss G, you do not want that.

When I first started having seizures the VA medical people had to determine if my seizures were neurological or psychological based. I had to spend two weeks in a "facility". After a brief conversation with some of my fellow ward mates even a simple villiage parson from the romance story of your choice would blink twice and say, "Wow, you're bat*poop* crazy."

Crazy does exist. I've seen it.

and that's not even counting the poor Med fleet sailor who, while on liberty in North Africa, was served a bad portion of sheep's brain and came down with spongiform encephalitis. That rapid onset, three year kind. He was 28. He was only supposed to be there long enough for an opening in one of the end-game facilities to open but there was a delay. He was bed-ridden most of the time, but sometimes when the staff wasn't looking some connection would reconnect and he would get up and walk around. That was worse than seeing him bedridden. He would try to talk to people, and when he could string words together coherently he tried to tell people he was alright, there was nothing wrong with him.

I still have nightmares about that place.

SeanF
2012-Jul-03, 06:52 PM
One word I really do not like is normal. There is no such thing really but people think it is and some people they have they righ to make everyone "normal". But what is normal, normal to one person is talking all the time and working 9 to 5 while for someone else normal is being quiet and working nights. It is all subjective.
"Normal is what everyone else is, and you are not."
--Soran, "Star Trek: Generations"

:D

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-03, 07:08 PM
You have to keep in mind just how plastic "mental health" has become. Back in the mid 1970s the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders was tiny at about 65 pages. Since then through constant review and addition of new disorders by the DSM committee it's balloned up to close to 1,000 pages with many new disorders which has also seen a massive growth in the pharmaceutical treatment of psychiatric disorders.

Part of this is from a desire to create a more scientific basis for modern psychiatry and move away from traditional
analysis, and some is driven by the profit motive.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-03, 07:31 PM
Oh Miss G, you do not want that.

No, I know I don't. My younger sister was hospitalized for depression when she was in high school (it only took Mom three depressed daughters to work out what that looks like!), and I'm so glad it wasn't me.


Crazy does exist. I've seen it.

Remember, no one here has ever seen me at my craziest. In either direction. At my worst, it has probably been nothing more than my poor medical coverage which kept me out of a hospital.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-03, 11:14 PM
I found the serious schizophrenics the saddest cases while in hospital. Many of them spent the day trying to get high from drinking water(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication) or sharing their latest delusion, dream or whatever.

It seemed to me a lot like being trapped in a nightmare.

DoggerDan
2012-Jul-04, 09:20 PM
You have to keep in mind just how plastic "mental health" has become. Back in the mid 1970s the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders was tiny at about 65 pages. Since then through constant review and addition of new disorders by the DSM committee it's balloned up to close to 1,000 pages with many new disorders which has also seen a massive growth in the pharmaceutical treatment of psychiatric disorders.

Used to be, a character was someone who sat on their front porch and entertained others because of how different they were. Now they're locked up because they fell outside of some distribution limit on a test.


Part of this is from a desire to create a more scientific basis for modern psychiatry and move away from traditional analysis, and some is driven by the profit motive.

And some is driven by obsessive compulsive behavior on the part of shrinks to "correctly" identify each and every psychological nuance on the planet. Me? I enjoy people as they are! Fooey on what's "normal."

Gillianren
2012-Jul-04, 09:46 PM
Used to be, a character was someone who sat on their front porch and entertained others because of how different they were. Now they're locked up because they fell outside of some distribution limit on a test.

Nonsense. They may be in treatment, but they are not locked up unless they're a danger to themselves or others. At that, not enough people are hospitalized; many of them end up on the streets instead--or dead, or in prison. What's also true is that what's entertaining to you may be misery to them. I can tell you from experience that there is nothing more reassuring than a diagnosis. It's people who don't have anything really wrong with them who don't understand that. You see how other people are able to do things that you are not, are able to control their minds in ways that you cannot, and there's something awful about that. Knowing exactly what's wrong with you? That's really reassuring in a way that people who are biochemically normal can never understand.


And some is driven by obsessive compulsive behavior on the part of shrinks to "correctly" identify each and every psychological nuance on the planet. Me? I enjoy people as they are! Fooey on what's "normal."

It's easy to say that when you are.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-05, 01:49 AM
Used to be, a character was someone who sat on their front porch and entertained others because of how different they were. Now they're locked up because they fell outside of some distribution limit on a test.

I tend to look at it like genetic diversity in the biological world now, if you're not acting in a way that harms(or in misery-thanks Gillianren) yourself or others then you're adding to the the overall diversity of the world.


And some is driven by obsessive compulsive behavior on the part of shrinks to "correctly" identify each and every psychological nuance on the planet. Me? I enjoy people as they are! Fooey on what's "normal."

It's not a secret that more than a few mental health professionals go into the field to work out their own issues, so to a degree it really is the blind leading the blind. There has been a lot of advances in psychiatry in recent decades, but I also doubt we'll ever find what "normal" is.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-05, 01:57 AM
Nonsense. They may be in treatment, but they are not locked up unless they're a danger to themselves or others. At that, not enough people are hospitalized; many of them end up on the streets instead--or dead, or in prison. What's also true is that what's entertaining to you may be misery to them. I can tell you from experience that there is nothing more reassuring than a diagnosis. It's people who don't have anything really wrong with them who don't understand that. You see how other people are able to do things that you are not, are able to control their minds in ways that you cannot, and there's something awful about that. Knowing exactly what's wrong with you? That's really reassuring in a way that people who are biochemically normal can never understand.

Some really good points, modern psychiatry does provide supports that didn't exist even a few decades ago, I wouldn't even be alive without the extensive treatment I received. There still does need to be a healthy balance in how far behaviour is catagorized as being an illness.

And one thing that truly upsets me is how across North America many psychiatric institutes have been down-sized and closed and the expected in-community support has never materialized resulting in hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people in prison or jail.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/

Jens
2012-Jul-05, 02:01 AM
Used to be, a character was someone who sat on their front porch and entertained others because of how different they were. Now they're locked up because they fell outside of some distribution limit on a test.


I don't think that's entirely wrong, but it's not entirely right either. There really are people who are deeply schizophrenic and are not well connected to the world around them, who won't entertain others because they aren't really aware of the presence of others in the way that most of us are.

Jens
2012-Jul-05, 02:05 AM
That's really reassuring in a way that people who are biochemically normal can never understand.


I don't mean to minimize the problems of mental illness, but I wonder if it's really true that there are people who are biochemically "normal." Isn't it more of a spectrum of normalcy to abnormality, and we are all somewhere along that spectrum? I sort of suspect (though I'm not certain I guess) that all humans have an element of neurosis at least, and that it's probably too some extent an inevitable consequence of the complexity of our mind. And of course I'm not saying "we are all the same." I've met people who are schizophrenic and I would not want to minimize what that or other psychoses can be like.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-05, 02:06 AM
It's important to distinguish between the "normal" range of behaviours that still allow people to function as healthy individuals and the disorders that can literally make someones life hell, and it does get that bad for some.

I've met people who've come out of years of highly dysfunctional living due to effective new medications for treating schizophrenia and other disorders and the changes are truly dramatic. But now we're also diagnosing children as manic depressive and medicating them with powerful medications when there's little evidence of objective diagnosis(it's probable they have ADD as they tend to lose the bipolar symptoms as they mature.)

Solfe
2012-Jul-05, 05:51 AM
A friend of my had a "sanity crisis*" that caused her to leave work for several months. On her return, she mentioned that she didn't like having to receive continuing treatment. I shook my head and said, "No, that is awesome. That sounds like doctors note that says 'Its not me, it MUST be you'." She liked that line.

*I call it a "sanity crisis" because I have no idea what the issue was, but it was horrible for her.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-05, 07:50 PM
Well, my bipolar symptoms started when I was in elementary school. It does happen; the question is more how often. What's more, the mania was worse than the depression when I was that age, and it manifested as rage. My mother has not been a perfect parent, Gods know, but she has done the best she can with some pretty difficult situations, most of my life. My family's history on both sides of minor eccentricity blossomed so that she has one bipolar daughter and one sociopathic daughter. Not easy for Mom, that.

I do believe that we have an overdiagnosis problem, but one of the reasons it's a problem is that it makes it easier to trivialize real diagnoses. I was diagnosed at a time when bipolar was a "fashionable" diagnosis. (At the time, it was still called manic depression!) A lot of people were diagnosed with it who later turned out to have other conditions . . . or just be going through a bit of a bad patch. This means that, even though I've had a diagnosis for more than twenty years now, it was a struggle when I started treatment again to have it acknowledged. They kept wanting to treat me for straight depression, because "everyone knows" too many people were diagnosed as bipolar. Which is, again, true--but it doesn't mean that no one is actually bipolar.

Yes, we're all on a spectrum, but in many ways, that spectrum is more like a half-bell curve. There are a lot more people whose brain chemistry works than people whose brain chemistry is off, and the closer to normal, the more people "broken" to that degree. Mild cases, especially pre-clinical (not serious enough for diagnosis), are much more common than severe cases or even moderate-to-severe ones like mine. Oddly, though, it doesn't seem that way when you're mentally ill. You tend to have more mentally ill friends, even if you don't go looking for them. Weird, huh?

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-06, 06:02 PM
It's still such a subjective area.

While there is probably an overdiagnosis of some disorders, you also need to be very careful to not remove the support that allows many people to live meaningful lives now.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-06, 06:24 PM
Oh, absolutely! The clinic where I get my therapy keeps wanting to kick me out to fend for myself, since I seem to be doing okay. Now, this is largely because I am getting regular therapy. If I stopped, I would go downhill very quickly and I know it, but my therapist is getting pressure from her superiors to kick me out. Her superiors do not seem to understand the concept of a chronic condition. And good luck finding any other mental health care in the area which takes Medicaid. For some reason, they've confused "treatment resistant" with "not in need of treatment." However, I suspect that at least part of the problem is that people who don't need the help are taking up the scarce resources. The other problems are a bit political to discuss here.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-06, 06:37 PM
One thing I quickly came to realize is that the most important advocate I had when dealing with the mental health field was myself.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-06, 07:41 PM
It's a bit of a problem, that; there are some days where I'm just not capable of advocating for anyone.

Moose
2012-Jul-06, 07:54 PM
Knowing exactly what's wrong with you? That's really reassuring in a way that people who are biochemically normal can never understand.

No kidding. Once I knew I had OCD, I could forgive myself for certain obsessions and start to meaningfully cope with them. Not so much preventing them outright (not really possible), but instead recognizing and circumventing my triggers, and when I can't, knowing how to successfully distract myself (without feeling any personal recrimination for having to do so in the first place.)


I enjoy people as they are!

Sure. So do I. But in order to be able to enjoy myself, as I am, I had to have an accurate diagnosis.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-06, 08:24 PM
It's a bit of a problem, that; there are some days where I'm just not capable of advocating for anyone.

I had days and even months like that.

I know it can be hard to just communicate what's going on inside at times like that.

Having a good support network is very important also.

Noclevername
2012-Jul-06, 09:30 PM
I had years like that. Most of my life I was unaware of the nature of most of my other problems until they were diagnosed; I just knew that I was miserable and didn't understand other people, and I didn't know why. I was misdiagnosed for years; everything from schizoid to "He's faking it". Even after the initial diagnoses of severe depression, panic attacks and phobia were confirmed, I didn't know that those were just symptoms of a bigger problem, and whn I was finally diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome years later it all fell into place and I began to understand why I was the way I was.


ETA: It also helped get me on the right meds, as opposed to the wide array of wrong ones I'd been given.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-06, 10:04 PM
My issues have mostly been PTSD related which can be very hard to treat with medication.

Just knowing what's going on and getting understanding and support can make a huge difference, some of the most compassionate people I've ever met have been in the mental health field.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-06, 10:23 PM
Sure. So do I. But in order to be able to enjoy myself, as I am, I had to have an accurate diagnosis.

And you know, I don't entirely enjoy people as they are. When someone I deeply love is in fetal position in the bathtub because nothing can hurt her there, I want her to be better. When someone else I love is so angry that he can't control his own actions and isn't entirely aware of reality, I want him to be better. Heck, when someone I don't like very much is so convinced that his girlfriend (who I do love) is out to get him that he bugs her house and car, I want him to either be better or go away. (For preference both!) Some people seem to believe that all mental illness is some sort of harmless eccentricity, and that isn't even a little true.


My issues have mostly been PTSD related which can be very hard to treat with medication.

There are no medications specifically intended for bipolar disorder. All of them treated something else first. None of them work for me.


Just knowing what's going on and getting understanding and support can make a huge difference, some of the most compassionate people I've ever met have been in the mental health field.

You almost have to be compassionate to go into the field. Especially the people I meet; if they were in it for the money, I wouldn't be interacting with them. No one works for my clinic just for the money.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-07, 07:20 PM
You almost have to be compassionate to go into the field. Especially the people I meet; if they were in it for the money, I wouldn't be interacting with them. No one works for my clinic just for the money.

It's almost a calling for some people.

I don't remember much from the really dark times of my illness, I do remember clearly some of the people who helped pull me out of it.

Noclevername
2012-Jul-07, 07:31 PM
You almost have to be compassionate to go into the field.

I have had some negative experiences with those who fit the "almost" part rather than the compassionate. A couple were in fact quite rude. It put me off therapy for a long time.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-07, 08:28 PM
My psychiatrist made me cry during my intake appointment. We've since resolved a lot of our issues, but deep down, he still doesn't believe that anyone should be on disability for being bipolar. It's a conflict that isn't going to get resolved. On the other hand, I don't see him anymore; I'm not on any meds at the moment, so there's no point in taking up his valuable time.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-07, 08:45 PM
I've had some bad experiences also, usually with psychiatrists who tend to want to treat everything with drugs over therapy.

Noclevername
2012-Jul-07, 08:57 PM
The worst examples were at a therapy group at the University of Connecticut. One guy was showing up tired, and rather than simply talk to him about it, they just assumed that he was slacking off on his meds, and immediately increased his dosage. Turns out the actual reason he was so sleepy was that he had taken a second job, night shift.

I could fill a page with stories about the clowns running that particular circus, but it just angries up the blood. I'm going to go calm down now.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-08, 02:22 AM
I've had some bad experiences also, usually with psychiatrists who tend to want to treat everything with drugs over therapy.

That's one good thing about my psychiatrist; he knows both are important. Alas, again, treatment resistant. And the people in charge seem to think that, if you're not on meds, you don't need long-term therapy.

Tinaa
2012-Jul-08, 02:54 AM
Speaking as a person who doesn't seem to have a mental illness, it is very difficult to comprehend. I really just don't get it! A member of my family is chronically clinically depressed. Makes ME crazy. There are times I just don't feel like getting up and doing something but I get up and do it anyway. After discussing it with someone who does understand this mental illness, I get it that she really can't help it. But I do NOT understand it.

Gillianren
2012-Jul-08, 07:54 AM
I don't think it's entirely possible to understand unless you do. I think it is admirable to try, but I don't think you can ever know. I think you will always be missing something.

starcanuck64
2012-Jul-09, 05:28 PM
Speaking as a person who doesn't seem to have a mental illness, it is very difficult to comprehend. I really just don't get it! A member of my family is chronically clinically depressed. Makes ME crazy. There are times I just don't feel like getting up and doing something but I get up and do it anyway. After discussing it with someone who does understand this mental illness, I get it that she really can't help it. But I do NOT understand it.

It get's bad for some people.

At my worst in the hospital I lost a lot of weight because I barely had the energy to eat. We had 1/2 hour for meal times and that wasn't long enough for me to complete the complex(for me at the time) process of finishing a meal, at best I got halfway through.

One comparison I could use would be like living in treacle.

Noclevername
2012-Jul-09, 06:30 PM
Speaking as a person who doesn't seem to have a mental illness, it is very difficult to comprehend. I really just don't get it! A member of my family is chronically clinically depressed. Makes ME crazy. There are times I just don't feel like getting up and doing something but I get up and do it anyway. After discussing it with someone who does understand this mental illness, I get it that she really can't help it. But I do NOT understand it.


I'm the same way about people who are "normal"; their behavior really doesn't make sense to me. I have slowly worked out a sort of "menu" of behavioral options and responses over the years, but when someone goes outside of it (or if I get my responses wrong and am told I'm being "inapproriate") I usually try to duck out and go elsewhere.

HenrikOlsen
2012-Jul-09, 06:47 PM
I don't think it's entirely possible to understand unless you do. I think it is admirable to try, but I don't think you can ever know. I think you will always be missing something.
The first thing missing in comprehension is that with a mental illness, the part doing the comprehending is one of the parts which are impaired.
The instrument of understanding is the thing that lies.
And I've only seen it from the outside.

And to repeat myself from another thread and get back to the op, the two sanest people I know from this forum have severe mental problems.

Solfe
2012-Jul-10, 02:25 AM
The first thing missing in comprehension is that with a mental illness, the part doing the comprehending is one of the parts which are impaired.
The instrument of understanding is the thing that lies.
And I've only seen it from the outside.

And to repeat myself from another thread and get back to the op, the two sanest people I know from this forum have severe mental problems.

Funny how that works... Two semesters ago, I had a great teacher leave the job due to a mental illness. If she comes back before I am done, I am going to ask her if I can sit in on her class.