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beskeptical
2004-Oct-11, 08:12 AM
First the president of South Africa says HIV drugs cause AIDS and the HIVirus doesn't. And now we have the Nobel Prize winner making the claim HIV was made to kill blacks. This is really sad because it will set back efforts to deal with HIV. There is distrust for HIV drugs and this will add to it.

news link (http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/News/0,,2-11-1447_1602547,00.html)
Nairobi - Kenyan ecologist Wangari Maathai, the first African woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize, on Saturday reiterated her claim that the AIDS virus was a deliberately created biological agent.

"Some say that Aids came from the monkeys, and I doubt that because we have been living with monkeys (since) time immemorial, others say it was a curse from God, but I say it cannot be that.

"Us black people are dying more than any other people in this planet," Maathai told a press conference ...

The science of where the HIVirus originated and its DNA structure leaves no doubt it wasn't man made and isn't a biological weapon. The widespread belief in incredible rumors boggles the mind.

In addition to this there has been the polio vaccine rumor that it was really a drug to sterilize the population.

news link (http://www.10news.com/health/3793548/detail.html)
Extremist Islamic clerics have led the boycott, claiming the polio vaccine is part of a U.S.-led plot to render Nigeria's Muslims infertile or infect them with AIDS.

Morrolan
2004-Oct-11, 08:41 AM
all of which has led to the resurgence of Polio in that region... #-o good job...

TriangleMan
2004-Oct-11, 11:13 AM
Haven't there been documented cases of AIDS as early as the 1950s (except at the time they didn't realize it was AIDS?).

AIDS spread rapidly in Africa for the same reason it spread amongst the homosexual community in the 80s - promiscuity and not using condoms. Sadly efforts to educate people are being hampered by those who, rather than look at the evidence to draw proper conclusions, prefer to spread rumours such as HIV drugs cause AIDS. It's truly sad. :(

Swift
2004-Oct-11, 12:42 PM
Haven't there been documented cases of AIDS as early as the 1950s (except at the time they didn't realize it was AIDS?).

AIDS spread rapidly in Africa for the same reason it spread amongst the homosexual community in the 80s - promiscuity and not using condoms. Sadly efforts to educate people are being hampered by those who, rather than look at the evidence to draw proper conclusions, prefer to spread rumours such as HIV drugs cause AIDS. It's truly sad. :(
I can't remember the details, but I have a similar memory (might have been 60's, but it certainly was decades). This information was recognized to years latter.

Fortis
2004-Oct-11, 02:16 PM
Haven't there been documented cases of AIDS as early as the 1950s (except at the time they didn't realize it was AIDS?).

AIDS spread rapidly in Africa for the same reason it spread amongst the homosexual community in the 80s - promiscuity and not using condoms. Sadly efforts to educate people are being hampered by those who, rather than look at the evidence to draw proper conclusions, prefer to spread rumours such as HIV drugs cause AIDS. It's truly sad. :(
I can't remember the details, but I have a similar memory (might have been 60's, but it certainly was decades). This information was recognized to years latter.
I recall something (from about 10-15 years ago) about a sailor who died in Manchester (UK) in the 50's from a condition that sounded like AIDS. This was confirmed when a sample of his stored blood (or tissue?) was tested.

Haven't heard anything since then.

Argos
2004-Oct-11, 02:28 PM
These peace Nobel prize winners... :roll: The "green" movement is just choke full of non-sense and conspiration theories. It´s the same everywhere you look to. I doubt if those freaks can actually serve mankind.

Edited for grammar

TriangleMan
2004-Oct-11, 03:00 PM
I recall something (from about 10-15 years ago) about a sailor who died in Manchester (UK) in the 50's from a condition that sounded like AIDS. This was confirmed when a sample of his stored blood (or tissue?) was tested.

Found a reference to a 1998 publication in Nature (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=946813 8&dopt=Abstract) describing the Manchester salior (1959) and a Norwegian who died in 1971.

ktesibios
2004-Oct-11, 03:02 PM
Well, according to http://uhavax.hartford.edu/bugl/rise.htm ,



The earliest fully documented case of HIV dates back to 1959. A Congolese man's blood sample from a medical study was preserved, found, and then analyzed in 1998. It was verified that he had been HIV+...

The first recorded cases in the U.S. occurred in New York City in 1952, 1959, and 1979. The cases from the 1950s were both males with PCP and other unusual infections.


I'm reminded of Legionnaire's disease. After the causative organism was identified, the Legionella bacterium was found in preserved tissue samples taken from people who had died of pneumonias of unresolved origin as much as fifty years before the 1976 outbreak.

The bacterium had been around for quite some time and had been infecting humans. but it took an outbreak among a group of people who clearly had something in common to trigger the sort of research effort needed to nail down a prevously unidentified organism.

So it seems to have been with HIV and American gay men.

ignorant_ape
2004-Oct-11, 05:15 PM
i cannot find the books to provide a proper quote byt Richard Preston mainatins that if all the facts were know then AIDS would have been dubbed " kinshasa <sp > highway virus " in line with the trnd for naming virii after the source

aslso as note by previous posters " AIDS " was not recognised as a distinct pathogen untill it hit the west coast US male homosexuals - the first group to suffer who had a voice and 1st world health care


untill then it was written off as something else

YRS - APE

papageno
2004-Oct-11, 05:24 PM
These peace Nobel prize winners... :roll: The "green" movement is just choke full of non-sense and conspiration theories. It´s the same everywhere you look to. I doubt if those freaks can actually serve mankind.

Edited for grammar

Ah, it was a peace Nobel prize winner (not medicine)!

In Italy have a literature Nobel prize winner who spouts nonsense about cloning and biotechnologies.

You are right: it's the same everywhere.

beskeptical
2004-Oct-14, 08:57 AM
Excellent posts digging up the facts on the stored blood tests. The DNA sequence of HIV has also been compared to the SIV, simian immuno deficiency virus. The two have a common ancestor. They diverged several thousand years ago.

We have been following H5N1 avian flu since 1997. It spreads much more rapidly. Now, seven years later, we are seeing the steps increase each year toward an outbreak.

HIV could have been simmering for years and years without notice in small pockets in Africa.

Two things spread the disease and began the epidemic. One was indeed the road that was built across Africa through Uganda. Truck travel and prostitution related to the trucking route first brought the HIV virus out of isolation. From there it spread to Haiti and other places. The second step was patient zero, the gay airline steward. He slept with groups of gay men in many large cities where gays at the time were having hundreds of partners. Even after it was suspected HIV was contagious, they were in denial and didn't stop their behavior for a few more years.

No room for a CIA plot in there really.

Ut
2004-Oct-14, 02:50 PM
I'm told that people who usually feel that they are always being lied to do so because they themselves always lie. You know you're not trustworthy, and neither is anyone else! This has always been in the back of my mind whenever someone speaks of conspiracy.

People don't understand medicine. Take a pill, get better. It seems easy. Some find it too easy. I can't blame them. But for some reason, these same people can be overly trusting of people who say "Don't trust medicine. Trust ME!" It's bizarre.

It's frustrating.

It makes me feel more contempt than I'd like to feel.

I always say, never trust the person who's trying to sell you something. But I have the bias here wherein the government pays for a large part of my medical treatment. So the choice becomes "spend dozens of dollars on x, or hundreds of dollars on y" as opposed to "spend thousands of dollars on x, or hundreds of dollars on y".

TriangleMan
2004-Oct-15, 04:19 PM
In related news an email making the rounds about HIV-contaminated ketchup caused such a fuss here that the paper had to publish an article (http://www.theroyalgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041015/NEWS/110150087) to tell people it is a hoax.

This part, in particular, annoyed me:

“I went berserk,” father Dennis Lambert told The Royal Gazette. “They should at least let people know – this is serious. Mostly everybody in Bermuda eats from fast food restaurants.”
Even the news that the e-mail was a fraud did not comfort him. “Who says it can’t happen, hasn’t already happened?

Who says it can't happen? I don't know, maybe anyone who has actually taken five minutes to research HIV and how it's transmitted. :roll:

I don't blame him for being alarmed at the email, a person cannot be expected to know everything, but to persist in the hysteria even when pointed out that's it's wrong is sad.

sts60
2004-Oct-15, 05:33 PM
One of the things they teach you as a first responder is that the AIDs virus is pretty fragile, and a short exposure to air, let alone sunlight, will take care of it. It just doesn't last outside the body. Although the idea of catsup as a disinfectant is intriguing... :-k It's the various fun versions of hepatitis that can linger for a long time on exposed surfaces and such.

beskeptical
2004-Oct-17, 05:23 AM
Who says it can't happen? I don't know, maybe anyone who has actually taken five minutes to research HIV and how it's transmitted. :roll:Not to add to the hysteria but you can be infected via your mouth. What were you referring to?

There are lots of ways people can contaminate a food source. But by far the vast majority of food borne illnesses are due to improper food handling, not purposeful actions.

There haven't been any documented outbreaks of HIV from a contaminated food source that I am aware of. OTOH, the 6 cases of HIV connected to the Florida dentist were in all probability purposefully inflicted. (All six had different procedures and not the same type of equipment. All 6 had the dentist's HIV and not another patient's despite HIV infected patients having been seen in the practice, and no other cases of HIV were found in patients of either HIV infected surgeons, doctors nor dentists when thousands of patients were looked at.)

These HIV hoaxes are frequent. Didn't a person call in to a radio show claiming to be infecting men on purpose? There have been hoaxes about needles left in the change box of phones and vending machines as well.

You can't get HIV from the dried blood in a injection needle. There have been documented cases of HIV transmission via swallowing infectious body fluids (nuff said due to kids on board). There has been one case of transmission via a bite. That would be after thousands of infected bites that didn't spread HIV. There was one case spread by kissing, but the infected person had mouth sores and the person who got infected had had dental work, a tooth pulled I think.

Very few health care workers have been infected despite thousands of exposure incidents.

beskeptical
2004-Oct-17, 05:33 AM
... It's the various fun versions of hepatitis that can linger for a long time on exposed surfaces and such.That would only be Hep B. While I think some research did show C lasting a day or so on a surface, you won't get infected by that surface contaminant because you have to receive a large dose of virus to get infected. Once blood is dried, not much of it is going to get inside your body very easily.

If you are still under the misconception hep C is much risk to first responders, as many first responders are because of a particular incident in Philly and because of the union's subsequent activities, send me a PM and I'll give you more information. My practice specializes in occupational biohazards and I work with many fire departments.

TriangleMan
2004-Oct-17, 04:28 PM
Who says it can't happen? I don't know, maybe anyone who has actually taken five minutes to research HIV and how it's transmitted. :roll:Not to add to the hysteria but you can be infected via your mouth. What were you referring to?

That HIV does not last long outside the body therefore you cannot acquire it through means such as a ketchup bottle.

It's a shame when someone suddenly becomes concerned that ketchup could be contaminated with blood. It's not like, at any time in the past, someone couldn't tamper with a fast-food ketchup dispenser with more noxious items like Draino or something. But if someone were to start thinking like that they'd never leave the house.

beskeptical
2004-Oct-18, 07:24 AM
Who says it can't happen? I don't know, maybe anyone who has actually taken five minutes to research HIV and how it's transmitted. :roll:Not to add to the hysteria but you can be infected via your mouth. What were you referring to?

That HIV does not last long outside the body therefore you cannot acquire it through means such as a ketchup bottle.Well there is a good chance ketchup is too acidic for HIV, (I think it's an acid :-k ), but HIV will survive much longer in liquid blood than in smaller amounts of dried blood.


It's a shame when someone suddenly becomes concerned that ketchup could be contaminated with blood. It's not like, at any time in the past, someone couldn't tamper with a fast-food ketchup dispenser with more noxious items like Draino or something. But if someone were to start thinking like that they'd never leave the house.That's my sentiment as well. 8-[

Actually, I have to ignore my knowledge base whenever I go out to eat. :P

sarongsong
2004-Nov-28, 02:15 AM
...We have been following H5N1 avian flu since 1997. It spreads much more rapidly. Now, seven years later, we are seeing the steps increase each year toward an outbreak...
Fri Nov 26 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=570&e=1&u=/nm/birdflu_dc)
"BANGKOK (Reuters) - Every country in the world must come up urgently with a plan to deal with an inevitable influenza pandemic likely to be triggered by the bird flu virus that hit Asia this year, a top global health expert said on Friday..."No country will be spared once it becomes a pandemic"...Experts say a pandemic will emerge from an animal, most probably a pig, which can harbor both flu viruses that affect humans and the avian flu variety. The two would mate and produce a virus to which people have no immunity..."
From a different Website:
...all flu pandemics start in one place in the world: namely, in South China --- because of the peculiarity of its farming techniques... (http://www.ralphmag.org/briefsZI.html)

Humphrey
2004-Nov-28, 03:26 AM
Relax man. No need to get all worried about the Flu. Keep yourself in good health and avoid people and situations where you will be in long term containment with sick people if you can and you should do very well. Remember what beskep said. Extreame stress can be just as bad.

sarongsong
2004-Nov-28, 11:50 AM
...Remember what beskep said...
Yup!

...We have been following H5N1 avian flu since 1997. It spreads much more rapidly. Now, seven years later, we are seeing the steps increase each year toward an outbreak...

...Keep yourself in good health...
Yup! (http://www.uctv.tv/library-popup.asp?showID=8343)

... avoid people and situations where you will be in long term containment with sick people if you can..."
Aye---there's the rub! [-(

beskeptical
2004-Nov-29, 07:01 AM
For those of you who feel good health and youth make you invincible to infection, here's a description of the 1918 flu pandemic experience:

http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/
The death rate for 15 to 34-year-olds of influenza and pneumonia were 20 times higher in 1918 than in previous years (Taubenberger). People were struck with illness on the street and died rapid deaths. One anectode shared of 1918 was of four women playing bridge together late into the night. Overnight, three of the women died from influenza (Hoagg). Others told stories of people on their way to work suddenly developing the flu and dying within hours (Henig). One physician writes that patients with seemingly ordinary influenza would rapidly "develop the most viscous type of pneumonia that has ever been seen" and later when cyanosis appeared in the patients, "it is simply a struggle for air until they suffocate,"And if you think today's antibiotics would have changed the outcome, well perhaps a tad but I wouldn't say antibiotics would have been seen as miracle drugs.

sarongsong
2004-Dec-02, 06:17 AM
FDA: Pandemic Influenza Preparedness and Response Plan (New 11/10/04)
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/04s0212/04s0212.htm