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View Full Version : Miss World 2012 - Faked or merely Homefield Advantage?



DoggerDan
2012-Aug-22, 10:45 AM
Article (http://shine.yahoo.com/beauty/miss-world-pageant-winner-slammed-fake-beauty-contest-194600321.html).

Quote: "I was not surprised at all to see that the winner of the pageant was Miss China given that it was held in a Chinese city with Chinese hosts and a huge group of screaming Chinese fans that erupted into applause every time she was mentioned," one commenter wrote..."

HenrikOlsen
2012-Aug-22, 11:51 AM
Reading the subject I had this weird flash that it was a home field advantage because the winner was human.

Swift
2012-Aug-22, 02:17 PM
Reading the subject I had this weird flash that it was a home field advantage because the winner was human.
:D

Really, the anti-male from Ceta Alpha IX had some very lovely tentacles.

primummobile
2012-Aug-22, 02:57 PM
There isn't any way to win in this situation.

The Huffington Post author derided the crowd for 'erupting into screaming applause' everytime the Chinese contestant was announced or went on stage. Evidently he has never been to any kind of sporting event or anything else to know how home crowds react to the home team.

The only way to avoid accusations of cheating or fixing would have been for the Chinese candidate to not win. If that was going to be the case then she may as well have just stayed home. Everyone is just a sore loser. If you lost it's because someone is cheating or doping or they paid off the judge. Somewhere along the line it became honorable to cry after losing rather than just shaking the victor's hand and then doing anything needed to come out on top the next time around.

No matter how fast, strong, beautiful or smart you are there will always be someone who is just a little better. I think that's a universal truth and it doesn't apply just to the human race.

Gillianren
2012-Aug-22, 05:05 PM
I have no problem with crying after losing. Losing hurts. However, there is still an obligation to be gracious to the winner even through your own pain.

Trebuchet
2012-Aug-22, 05:11 PM
The poll lacks an option: Who Cares? Beauty contests are an idea whose time has gone.

Perikles
2012-Aug-22, 05:20 PM
No matter how fast, strong, beautiful or smart you are there will always be someone who is just a little better. I think that's a universal truth and it doesn't apply just to the human race.For a quality which is not subjective (speed?) that statement must be false for exactly one person.

HenrikOlsen
2012-Aug-22, 05:37 PM
I really doubt it's the same person who is fastest, strongest, most beautiful and smartest at the same time.

Even just fastest and strongest at the same time would likely be impossible due to the way muscles work.

Swift
2012-Aug-22, 05:41 PM
The poll lacks an option: Who Cares? Beauty contests are an idea whose time has gone.
Beer ;)

Perikles
2012-Aug-22, 05:42 PM
I really doubt it's the same person who is fastest, strongest, most beautiful and smartest at the same time..Actually, I am, and the most modest.

primummobile
2012-Aug-22, 06:13 PM
I really doubt it's the same person who is fastest, strongest, most beautiful and smartest at the same time.

Even just fastest and strongest at the same time would likely be impossible due to the way muscles work.

It was just a rhetorical device to make a point. The point being that there are many ways to judge superiority and no one can be the best in all of those.

primummobile
2012-Aug-22, 06:15 PM
I have no problem with crying after losing. Losing hurts. However, there is still an obligation to be gracious to the winner even through your own pain.

By "crying" I meant being a sore loser.

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-22, 06:27 PM
Until anyone can come up with some kind of evidence that points to something, who cares?
Coincidences happen.

I don't know how often I've seen somebody pull thier own (or a relative's) raffle ticket out of a barrel. I've done it myself.
Sure; we all start with the "rigged" comments, but only in jest.

I guess the lack of evidence of an issue means that I'll put it into "we don't know enough" since we don't have an option for "beer". After all, the accusers are mostly anonymous posts to a news article.

starcanuck64
2012-Aug-22, 06:29 PM
My understanding of events like this is they're often decided before they even begin.

primummobile
2012-Aug-22, 06:30 PM
For a quality which is not subjective (speed?) that statement must be false for exactly one person.

Speed is subjective. Speed over 100m? 1500 or 10000m? Speed on a bicycle? Speed on a track or a trail? Acceleration? Is it running or swimming?

In America, we place a lot of emphasis on the 40 yard dash to tell us how "fast" football players are, but a distance that short doesn't measure absolute speed. Rather, it measures acceleration from a stop. It takes humans about 60m to get up to their top speed from a stop. Since 40 yards is just under 37m, there is no way to tell who is the "fastest" in that distance. Yet, we still call it "speed" anyway. However, it is useful since a running back only has a couple yards to accelerate before he takes possession of the football.

The point is that "speed" is an ambiguous term and so is "fast". We give out these titles, but they really don't mean anything other than that someone is the best on that day at competing in a particular event. Whether they will be the best tomorrow or next week or even next year is anyone's guess.

Absolutely, I would agree that there is one person on this planet who is the fastest person. But you would have to decide if by "fastest" you meant a momentary speed, a speed that was sustained for 10m, or whatever. If you are talking about running on a track, which is what we usually mean by "fastest", and you are talking about the 100m race, which is usually how we judge that, then the person who has the highest momentary speed isn't always the person who wins. Rather, it is the person who is able to maintain their own highest speed for the longest time.

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-22, 08:01 PM
Speed is subjective.
What you described is not the subjectivity of speed, but the subjectivity of the conditions to define "fastest".
Once the conditions are defined, speed is objective.

Noclevername
2012-Aug-22, 11:19 PM
The poll lacks an option: Who Cares? Beauty contests are an idea whose time has gone.

Well, as long as men have eyes, there will be beauty contests, but I know what you mean. I had no knowledge of the Miss World results until I read this thread, and now I know just what I've read in this thread.

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-23, 03:16 AM
There isn't any way to win in this situation.

But she did... Just kidding - I know what you mean.


The Huffington Post author derided the crowd for 'erupting into screaming applause' everytime the Chinese contestant was announced or went on stage. Evidently he has never been to any kind of sporting event or anything else to know how home crowds react to the home team.

And yet, when it's been hosted elsewhere, the crowds politely clapped for all contestants, not merely their own.


The only way to avoid accusations of cheating or fixing would have been for the Chinese candidate to not win.

I think the accusation of skewed results cam from the fact that the crowds were so flagrantly biased that they may have biased the judges. I'm pretty sure the judges were from around the world, but they're still human, the reaction of the crowd does create a bias.


If that was going to be the case then she may as well have just stayed home. Everyone is just a sore loser. If you lost it's because someone is cheating or doping or they paid off the judge. Somewhere along the line it became honorable to cry after losing rather than just shaking the victor's hand and then doing anything needed to come out on top the next time around.

I'm not a looser -- I didn't even compete! :D The point is that I find it strange that Sanya, China, has hosted the Miss World finals in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, and 2010, despite the fact that more than 100 countries are represented. This year's competition was hosted in Ordos, Inner Mongolia, China. So, we have two winners from China, one in 2007, another in 2012, and both times it was hosted in China. By the way, it's not only entirely acceptable in the Chinese culture to artificially tip the scales, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the audience was specifically briefed to do so.


Actually, I am, and the most modest.

Lol!

Solfe
2012-Aug-23, 04:33 AM
I vote for "luck overflow". She had a 1 in 2 billion chance of being Miss China. If you are lucky enough to do that, then winning Miss World just icing on the cake. :p

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-23, 05:47 AM
I vote for "luck overflow". She had a 1 in 2 billion chance of being Miss China. If you are lucky enough to do that, then winning Miss World just icing on the cake. :p

Given the nature of the situation, you're chances are far less than "billions." Perhaps 1 in 3. The point involves the media vs the lie.

primummobile
2012-Aug-23, 12:24 PM
What you described is not the subjectivity of speed, but the subjectivity of the conditions to define "fastest".
Once the conditions are defined, speed is objective.

That wasn't the point. The point was that there are different types of speed. The two most common are average speed and instantaneous speed. Unless you define the type of speed you are measuring, the results are open to interpretation.

primummobile
2012-Aug-23, 12:29 PM
If you look at it another way, China is almost 20% of the global population. So winning twice in six years is not that shocking. I find it more odd that China hosted the contest twice in six years.

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-23, 12:31 PM
That wasn't the point. The point was that there are different types of speed. The two most common are average speed and instantaneous speed. Unless you define the type of speed you are measuring, the results are open to interpretation.
At the risk of being nitpicky, we are still talking about the conditions of the measurement, not the measurement itself.
Once defined it is objective. That was my point.
I think we agree, but we are getting lost in minutiae and the wording. I lost your point in all the examples you gave.

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-23, 12:34 PM
If you look at it another way, China is almost 20% of the global population. So winning twice in six years is not that shocking. I find it more odd that China hosted the contest twice in six years.
I look at it that way too, but it's hard to look at it as a direct ratio since we are talking about the extreme of a population.
Same with Olympic medalists. The larger the population, the larger pool you have to choose from. Of course, that doesn't rule out a better choice found in a small pool.

Solfe
2012-Aug-23, 12:48 PM
Given the nature of the situation, you're chances are far less than "billions." Perhaps 1 in 3. The point involves the media vs the lie.

At the Albright Knox Art Museum, there is a painting which is simply a sheet of canvas painted green. I have seen it more than 100 times, yet never bothered to read the name plate. Why? While soothing, it is not displayed within the context of a body of work nor does it appear to be inspired or constructed with care. To me, it isn't even art. I can't believe they display it or paid money for it.

That is pretty much my take on beauty pageants. It is a purely subjective choice with little or no reasonable justification. Might as well throw darts at a board to pick the winner.

primummobile
2012-Aug-23, 01:28 PM
At the risk of being nitpicky, we are still talking about the conditions of the measurement, not the measurement itself.
Once defined it is objective. That was my point.
I think we agree, but we are getting lost in minutiae and the wording. I lost your point in all the examples you gave.

Sorry. I tend to be too wordy for my own good.

primummobile
2012-Aug-23, 01:44 PM
I look at it that way too, but it's hard to look at it as a direct ratio since we are talking about the extreme of a population.
Same with Olympic medalists. The larger the population, the larger pool you have to choose from. Of course, that doesn't rule out a better choice found in a small pool.

This is true. I think this is most evident in high school sports. Larger schools, as a general rule, compete at a much higher level than what smaller schools do. Much of that disappears at levels above that, at least within the same country, because the participants are no longer restricted by geography.

I was only looking at it as a direct ratio to show the one extreme. If every woman on the planet entered the contest, someone from China should be expected to win about a fifth of the time. You can extrapolate it to the extreme of the population and get different numbers. But even if you are talking about a subjective quality, like beauty-for whatever you define that to be China should still have 20% of the world's beauty.

I think the fact that they have not had a higher medal count than the United States in the Olympics can be explained by a number of things like culture, access to training, and race. (by 'race' I mean physical limitations and strengths. Not trying to be a jerk)

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-23, 02:21 PM
I think the fact that they have not had a higher medal count than the United States in the Olympics can be explained by a number of things like culture, access to training, and race. (by 'race' I mean physical limitations and strengths. Not trying to be a jerk)
Same with the beauty contest. I would think a more vain culture would have more "beauties".
The "beauties" would mix with other "beauties" in a more vain culture while "beauties" mixing with "uglies" would dilute the "beauty pool" in less vain cultures.

primummobile
2012-Aug-23, 02:46 PM
Same with the beauty contest. I would think a more vain culture would have more "beauties".
The "beauties" would mix with other "beauties" in a more vain culture while "beauties" mixing with "uglies" would dilute the "beauty pool" in less vain cultures.

That's actually kind of funny. That's what makes it all so subjective, in fact. Just yesterday I was telling my coworkers how beautiful my wife is. When we were first married she couldn't cook and I did all of the cooking. Then she took several cooking classes (all while studying for her PhD--very impressive) and her beauty quotient tripled. But outwardly she still looks the same.

Jim
2012-Aug-24, 04:37 PM
The poll lacks an option: Who Cares? Beauty contests are an idea whose time has gone.

"Hey! Hey! It is NOT a beauty pageant! It is a scholarship program."

KaiYeves
2012-Aug-24, 04:49 PM
:D

Really, the anti-male from Ceta Alpha IX had some very lovely tentacles.

That sort of joke works better with Miss Universe.

Gillianren
2012-Aug-24, 05:53 PM
"Hey! Hey! It is NOT a beauty pageant! It is a scholarship program."

You know, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a swimsuit competition. Or anything else which was simply about looks. Maybe a talent competition, but most scholarship programs don't so much as require pictures. When they do, it's usually so they can put the winner's picture on the next year's literature.

starcanuck64
2012-Aug-24, 06:05 PM
I find there's something very "plastic" about the contestants in beauty contests in the sense of being rigid and artificial, not flexible.

I'd like to see a Miss World Mind competition.

Jim
2012-Aug-25, 12:09 AM
"Hey! Hey! It is NOT a beauty pageant! It is a scholarship program."
You know, if that were the case, there wouldn't be a swimsuit competition. Or anything else which was simply about looks. Maybe a talent competition, but most scholarship programs don't so much as require pictures. When they do, it's usually so they can put the winner's picture on the next year's literature.

I can't believe that you, of all people, seem to have missed that reference.

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-25, 03:14 AM
I'm surprised that only two folks responding to the poll either bothered or cared enough to educate themselves to the point where they could provide an informed opinion. Is this what we've become? A society of "I don't care enough to learn about that which I might offer an opinion?"

At least those who responded to the poll were honest enough to say "I don't know." That's good. What's not good is that most people who responded to the poll said, "I don't know." That's rather sick and disturbing.

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-25, 03:15 AM
I find there's something very "plastic" about the contestants in beauty contests in the sense of being rigid and artificial, not flexible.

I'd like to see a Miss World Mind competition.

That would be something, wouldn't it? :D


That's actually kind of funny. That's what makes it all so subjective, in fact. Just yesterday I was telling my coworkers how beautiful my wife is. When we were first married she couldn't cook and I did all of the cooking. Then she took several cooking classes (all while studying for her PhD--very impressive) and her beauty quotient tripled. But outwardly she still looks the same.

But it's not what's on the outside that counts, at least not on the long run, is it? :)

Gillianren
2012-Aug-25, 05:33 AM
I can't believe that you, of all people, seem to have missed that reference.

I saw that movie once and didn't much care for it. And that was . . . well, whenever it was a new release.

Perikles
2012-Aug-25, 06:34 AM
Is this what we've become? A society of "I don't care enough to learn about that which I might offer an opinion?"

At least those who responded to the poll were honest enough to say "I don't know." That's good. What's not good is that most people who responded to the poll said, "I don't know." That's rather sick and disturbing.More likely a society of "could not care less about Miss World, there are things more interesting to spend time forming opinions about". I find that encouraging.

WaxRubiks
2012-Aug-25, 07:10 AM
More likely a society of "could not care less about Miss World, there are things more interesting to spend time forming opinions about". I find that encouraging.
+1

Noclevername
2012-Aug-25, 02:59 PM
More likely a society of "could not care less about Miss World, there are things more interesting to spend time forming opinions about". I find that encouraging.

Ditto. Also, I did not respond to the poll, so my opinion was consistent with my actions.

Van Rijn
2012-Aug-25, 03:59 PM
At least those who responded to the poll were honest enough to say "I don't know." That's good. What's not good is that most people who responded to the poll said, "I don't know." That's rather sick and disturbing.

Well, I didn't really care enough about this subject to mark a poll option, but with that, add me to "Don't know enough to comment."

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-27, 05:50 PM
I'm surprised that only two folks responding to the poll either bothered or cared enough to educate themselves to the point where they could provide an informed opinion. Is this what we've become? A society of "I don't care enough to learn about that which I might offer an opinion?"
And just how are we going to get informed?
There is nothing in the news except this accusation that looks like coincidence.

Is there an independent agency or panal or something looking into this or doing thier own judging? What experts are saying she shouldn't have even been in the top 3?

Can you give any evidence one way or another?

The fault is not in us not wanting more information. It's the fault of the media taking some whining people, airing thier criticism and stopping there. No evidence, no opinion.

Gillianren
2012-Aug-27, 06:21 PM
And why should we care about something so vestigial as a beauty pageant anyway? Aren't there much more important things to be informed about?

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-29, 04:24 AM
And why should we care about something so vestigial as a beauty pageant anyway?

The vast majority of the human race, including, and probably especially in more developed countries, still chooses their mate based largely on attractiveness. Are other measures important as well? Sure. However, looks are not only "hardly" vestigial, they're not at all vestigial.

DonM435
2012-Aug-29, 12:45 PM
My folks used to watch the Miss America show when I was a kid. I remember hearing that speech every year. "We're about to annouce the First Runner-Up! This is a very important position, because if for some reason Miss America cannot fulfill her duties ... "

Good grief, the U.S. could get by without a Vice President for a few years here and there, but perish the thought that this throne ever be vacated.

At some point along the way that cut that speech, I think.

Gillianren
2012-Aug-29, 05:35 PM
Maybe it was at about the same time as the Constitutional amendment providing for the replacement of the Vice President? But I bring your attention to Vanessa Williams. Maybe they wanted us to stop thinking about that, though she's the only Miss America I can name. Certainly I can't name that year's first runner up.

Physical attraction may be part of the package of what we judge, but that doesn't mean we should line women up and pick the prettiest and then reward her for it.

NEOWatcher
2012-Aug-29, 08:01 PM
Physical attraction may be part of the package of what we judge, but that doesn't mean we should line women up and pick the prettiest and then reward her for it.
But it's not just Physical attraction... they have to have hope for world peace.

DoggerDan
2012-Aug-29, 09:10 PM
Physical attraction may be part of the package of what we judge, but that doesn't mean we should line women up and pick the prettiest and then reward her for it.

Really? Why not? Wikipedia says, "Critics of beauty contests argue that such contests reinforce the idea that girls and women should be valued primarily for their physical appearance, and that this puts tremendous pressure on women to conform to conventional beauty standards by spending time and money on fashion, cosmetics, hair styling and even cosmetic surgery. They claim that this pursuit of physical beauty even encourages some women to diet to the point of harming themselves."

That's to be expected, but I can think of others, including jealousy (boyfriend/husband oogles the gals) and shame (not feeling like one can measure up). I can't speak for all males, but I know it doesn't work that way for me. I'm in great shape, but I'm no looker. Whatever it is that females find attractive comes from my heart, from the inside, who I am, and the fact that I'm a gentleman. As for the jealousy aspect, my ex and my gf's could be very attracted to another man, whether on TV or in person, and it never bothered me in the least. The only thing that ever bothered me was when I discovered my ex was cheating on me while I was offshore. I ran the gamut: disbelief, anger, grief, and when it happened a second time and she not only was not remorseful but actually defiant, I simply sent her packing.

Meanwhile, here's a list of the benefits of these pageants:

1. Recognition
2. Personal Development
3. Communication Skills
4. Confidence
5. Handling Stress, Pressure, and Disappointment

All of these are assets or critical skills needed throughout successful careers, and not only have many beauty pageant winners gone on to have fantastic careers, but most losers do, as well, because they learn a good deal about perseverance, especially in the face of defeat. That's a vital life-long skill.

Bottom line, it's competition, and competition is not only healthy, it's normal for humans to compete. In fact, it's normal for nearly all mammals and many other animals to compete, whether via display of plumage or physical prowess required to attract a mate, or cubs or children wrestling or playing soccer to develop physical skills. Competition is hardwired into our brains as a species, Ms. Gillianren, and for a myriad of purposes, the root of which is survival. It's Evolution 101.

Thus, I'm at a loss as to why you decry this rather natural extension of human competition. Do you decry football? Volleyball? The Olympics? How about bodybuilding competitions? Surfing? Math competitions? The Reno Air Races? Each and every one is a competition of skill, almost always involving both physical and mental. What you may not realize, however, is that despite their best efforts to remain unbiased, Olympic judges are still biased by both beauty and the cuteness factor. In fact, we humans compete on looks all the time. It's a well-known and well-proven fact that more attractive people tend to earn higher pay and enjoy a higher standard of living.

Beauty pageants are a far cry from wet t-shirt contests, Gillianren, and they should not be viewed with the same disdain. We humans have always competed on all three axes: brains, brawn, and beauty. Holding one or more of these in low regard makes no sense whatsoever.

Drunk Vegan
2012-Aug-30, 09:30 AM
Yes, I think it was faked. Women that beautiful must be photoshopped in some manner. : )