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nota
2012-Sep-14, 12:43 AM
I think so

it grows in spots clumps that look a lot like growth in a petri dish

in water less places no rust or much life

many anti-rust applications are toxic like lead
or seal out the bio agents like hard coatings or plating

I think rust needs a more anti-bio bases

John Mendenhall
2012-Sep-14, 12:57 AM
I think so

it grows in spots clumps that look a lot like growth in a petri dish

in water less places no rust or much life

many anti-rust applications are toxic like lead
or seal out the bio agents like hard coatings or plating

I think rust needs a more anti-bio bases

What does the last sentence mean?

nota
2012-Sep-14, 02:13 AM
What does the last sentence mean?

we need more stuff to kill in the anti-rust treatments
not just cover/seal the metal

Swift
2012-Sep-14, 04:17 AM
Rust is not alive. The fact that rust spots look like bacterial growth is not sufficient to make it alive. Its just iron oxide.

SkepticJ
2012-Sep-14, 04:27 AM
I think so

it grows in spots clumps that look a lot like growth in a petri dish

in water less places no rust or much life

many anti-rust applications are toxic like lead
or seal out the bio agents like hard coatings or plating

I think rust needs a more anti-bio bases

Rust is not alive. Rust is oxidized iron. This is an extremely well documented fact, of the sort that the Earth is not flat.

Just because something looks superficially like another thing, and has a few things in common, doesn't mean they're the same thing. Is a doll a person?

tnjrp
2012-Sep-14, 04:43 AM
There is no proper, complete and universally accepted definition for what is living, partly because we take it for granted that we know life when we see it. The list given in Wikipedia (for example), while not the letter of a law, is still usesful to describe the kind of life we "instictively" think as such:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Biology

Subscribing life to things that fall short of many of the entries on that would seem to be counterproductive at this time.

nota
2012-Sep-14, 01:03 PM
http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/titanic/titanic%20pages/titanic-science1.htm

this says rusticles are bio based and growing on the titanic

Strange
2012-Sep-14, 01:22 PM
http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/titanic/titanic%20pages/titanic-science1.htm

this says rusticles are bio based and growing on the titanic

Yes, the structures are created by bacteria or fungi (which are alive). But rust is not alive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusticle

Paul Wally
2012-Sep-14, 01:29 PM
I think so

it grows in spots clumps that look a lot like growth in a petri dish

in water less places no rust or much life

many anti-rust applications are toxic like lead
or seal out the bio agents like hard coatings or plating

I think rust needs a more anti-bio bases

Is rust alive? It's a good question to consider if we want to come up with a more fundamental and universal definition of life. If your definition of life is anything that "grows" then you will have to include all physical and chemical processes that have some accumulative effect over time, e.g. the growth of snow crystals, the growth of stalactites, and basically any chemical reaction leading to the accumulation of products. It's clear that growth as a single criterion includes too many things that we obviously won't consider to be alive.

Reproduction or self-replication is a good criterion. So how is self-replication different from mere growth? With self-replication we have some kind of memory (genetic code) that stores the information necessary for replicating a particular unique form or phenotype. Now, consider iron oxide: Is iron oxide a unique species requiring genetic coding of its unique form? My answer would be no because it can form independently in different places, implying that there is not a unique genetic code that needs to be transferred from one place to the other. For example the
rust on Mars has no causal connection with the rust forming here on Earth, i.e. there was no rusty-gene that needed to be transferred from the Earth to Mars or vice versa.

Noclevername
2012-Sep-14, 01:35 PM
http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/titanic/titanic%20pages/titanic-science1.htm

this says rusticles are bio based and growing on the titanic

The bacteria deposit rust and other compounds around them as a structure, but that's like saying all calcium is alive because some living things have bones.

Squink
2012-Sep-14, 02:06 PM
So my brother created life at the age of 7, when he touched a 9v battery to a piece of steel wool, and dropped the glowing mass on the family room carpet?
I think not. He initiated a chemical reaction, which like most growing things bears some resemblence to 'life'.

nota
2012-Sep-14, 03:00 PM
rust is iron +O2 and that is not life

but are there microbes in the reaction somewhere
well in at least some forms of rust as the link shows
maybe more as a catalyst or producing something that speeds the reaction

and why in hot dry areas not or very little rust
water and salt have a roll but as a pure chemical reaction ?
or are the water and salt feeding life that causes the rust

NEOWatcher
2012-Sep-14, 03:12 PM
...and why...
Have you tried to look up rust on the web?
Even wiki has a good explaination about the different ways iron rusts.



water and salt have a roll but...
I like salty rolls, but I tend to dunk them in coffee instead of water. *just making fun of the typo*

Noclevername
2012-Sep-14, 03:17 PM
Per Wikipedia:


The rusting of iron is an electrochemical process that begins with the transfer of electrons from iron to oxygen.[3] The rate of corrosion is affected by water and accelerated by electrolytes, as illustrated by the effects of road salt on the corrosion of automobiles. The key reaction is the reduction of oxygen:
O2 + 4 e− + 2 H2O → 4 OH−
Because it forms hydroxide ions, this process is strongly affected by the presence of acid. Indeed, the corrosion of most metals by oxygen is accelerated at low pH. Providing the electrons for the above reaction is the oxidation of iron that may be described as follows:
Fe → Fe2+ + 2 e−
The following redox reaction also occurs in the presence of water and is crucial to the formation of rust:
4 Fe2+ + O2 → 4 Fe3+ + 2 O2−

captain swoop
2012-Sep-14, 04:20 PM
Well, Rust never Sleeps.

tnjrp
2012-Sep-17, 05:07 AM
He initiated a chemical reaction, which like most growing things bears some resemblence to 'life'.It is hardly surprisingly that life, having pretty conlcusively emerged from chemistry, shares a lot of the features with the "original".

publiusr
2012-Sep-22, 07:12 PM
I found this rather frightening: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=16398

Metal might allow for life: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20906-lifelike-cells-are-made-of-metal.html Now for a 'rust front'

Antice
2012-Sep-22, 10:18 PM
I found this rather frightening: http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=16398

Metal might allow for life: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20906-lifelike-cells-are-made-of-metal.html Now for a 'rust front'

The second news story is way cool.
creatures based on this alternate "life" chemistry would never be in competition with us for living space due to their vastly different environmental needs compared to ours, but it does open up some rather interesting possibilities for non terrestrial life in places that are now thought to be impossible for life to exist.