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Cosmologist
2013-Jan-30, 06:05 AM
If a species wanted to be noticed in the universe by as many other species as possible how could they do it? Blow up a star?

Solfe
2013-Jan-30, 06:20 AM
Transmitting on the 21 cm line might do. Perhaps alternating signals, one with content and one with no content but no naturally occurring patterns like music. The second would drive people batty trying to figure out what it means. Kind of cruel actually. :)

Cosmologist
2013-Jan-30, 06:48 AM
Noticable and annoying. I like it. We should definitely do that. How loud could we make it?

Solfe
2013-Jan-30, 12:16 PM
I am not sure super loud is really required. The 21 cm band is sufficiently boring and known for modest signals to be noticed.

I recall a book where a test for the cosmic background detectors was messed up because a satellite was transmitting on that line. If I can find the book, I will post the title.

There is also a formula for power vs. antenna. If I can find the link, I will post that too, because it was a very handy Excel document for a SETI study.

Colin Robinson
2013-Jan-30, 08:41 PM
Noticable and annoying. I like it. We should definitely do that. How loud could we make it?

But what if they start annoying us back?

IsaacKuo
2013-Jan-30, 10:22 PM
If a species wanted to be noticed in the universe by as many other species as possible how could they do it? Blow up a star?

Genetic manipulation.

Step 1) Learn how to make new species...
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Profit!

But seriously, I'd think bigger. Once you get to your home galaxy's supermassive black hole, it's time to start sending out near-c self replicating invasion probes to the rest of the universe. Physically spamming the entire universe with annoying robotic Tribbles will get the attention of those pathetic species which don't have radio technology (i.e. all but one of the gazillion species we know of so far).

Solfe
2013-Jan-30, 11:32 PM
I found the spreadsheet. (www.computing.edu.au/~bvk/astronomy/HET608/essay/excel/data.zip)

It is from a student at Swinburne. http://www.computing.edu.au/~bvk/astronomy/

Within the document you can see survey data based on scope type. You can adjust the numbers to create your own telescope size and power, even beyond what is reasonable. FYI, there is a relationship between the cycles (Hz) and the power (watts). It seems to have really high numbers of both is bad for signals.

The book is called Wrinkles in Time by Smoot.

Cosmologist
2013-Jan-30, 11:58 PM
They are too far away to annoy us back. Let our distant descendants worry about that. Unless ofcourse everyones secret wish and expectation to live forever is finally made achievable in our lifetimes via genetic science in which case we are stuffed.

But if we are louder we can reach even more species on the 21cm band and annoy them with our apparently artificial yet completely unfathomable signals.

You are proposing getting a gravity assist from the super-massive black holes at the centre of most galaxies to propel self replicating probes to near C velocities? Wasn't that done on Star Gate? Better make sure yours are bullet proof. That was the initial mistake of those builders.

I've always wondered. Wouldn't something biological evolve to eat artificial replicants? I mean they are really small and can't evolve so what if bacteria or something found them tasty. There are chemicals and organisms that eat metal. Something which likes replicants but doesn't know it could be out there now. You just laid out an all you can eat buffet for them. Now an otherwise inconsequential lifeform is going to spread around the universe eating peoples iphones and cutlery.

Creating some new stars in a mathematical shape would cause a few alien astronomers to scratch their heads. Amass a lot of hydrogen together where you want the stars to form and make them form into a giant arrow pointing at our Sun or something. Its a big project and might take thousands of years but the result would last for millions. If we pick the right shape and can get the orbits stable perhaps billions.

Morse code? Blanket the sun with a space sail and randomly turn it side on at curiously unrandom moments. Thousands of years from now someone across the galaxy will be watching through a telescope and dialling NASA(National Alien Seeking Administration) with one of his three other available tentacles.

TooMany
2013-Jan-31, 12:35 AM
Noticable and annoying. I like it. We should definitely do that. How loud could we make it?

Dr. Hawkins recommends we keep quite, but it's probably already too late.

John Mendenhall
2013-Jan-31, 01:06 AM
If a species wanted to be noticed in the universe by as many other species as possible how could they do it? Blow up a star?


Fiddle with obscuring the star's light. Maybe the stars with close in gas giants are actually ET phoning home.

Remember, gentle folk, you saw it here first.

Regards, John M.

JustAFriend
2013-Jan-31, 03:47 PM
Sure go ahead and get noticed.

Just remember pretty much everything in the Universe follows a bell-shaped curve,
so for all the friends you might attract there are probably Klingons and Kzinti out there, too....

TooMany
2013-Jan-31, 06:45 PM
Sure go ahead and get noticed.

Just remember pretty much everything in the Universe follows a bell-shaped curve,
so for all the friends you might attract there are probably Klingons and Kzinti out there, too....

Isn't that like imagining cave men with clubs manning the ISS? The kind of aggression seen in the human race arises from competition with other humans (and other animals) for resources. You know, "these are my fruit trees get the heck out of here".

The aggression has survival value. Over the course of history, with the development of weapons, the aggressive strategy has even gone so far that some human groups have thrived by plundering the goods of others. It works on a limited scale as an advantage. We've seen wave after wave of conquering armies plundering and expanding territories, but this has always been followed by the eventual collapse of the aggressors. If all human groups took up plundering, there would be nothing to plunder. Thus the advantage of aggression is self-limiting.

So aggression has probably evolved due it's survival value in competition for resources. Today, even though we have the same aggressive tendencies as before, we keep them under control insofar as possible through society. Society prohibits you from simply stealing your neighbor's goods because you are stronger or carry a weapon. Despite our aggressive tendencies, I think few of us envision a future in which mankind develops interstellar travel and uses it to plunder or event destroy other planets and civilizations. In fact, our ethical ideas are contrary to that, despite our history as warriors.

Once we are so developed that we are able to contemplate interstellar travel, I would bet that our aggressive tendencies will be well under control. (If we don't get them under control our civilization may not survive. We are indeed very fortunate that it is difficult to build atomic weapons.)

As interstellar travelers, we will not need to steal resources from other less powerful civilizations. (This is not to say that we would not be prepared to defend ourselves.)

Thus, Klingons and Kzinti are nothing more than science fiction fantasy which on examination does not make sense. The idea has the same credibility as high-tech sword fights in Star Wars while everyone is also flying around at warp speed.

Solfe
2013-Jan-31, 06:55 PM
The first depictions of Klingon's and Kzinti seemed to show creatures driven by the same motivation - play. The Kzinti couldn't resist a new species to toy with. The Klingon's were really into politics and like to play "Let's you and him fight." Both even have a big honor system that prevents fights. Neither are slouches in a fight, but they are hardly the apex predictors of sci-fi.

Cosmologist
2013-Feb-01, 03:14 AM
Klingons and Kzinti are too tame. Look at the dinosaurs. They never became very smart but look at how big they were. Now imagine humans in a few million years. Selective breeding is making us bigger. Intelligent aliens could be built like T-Rexes but with dextrous hands. The possibilities are infinite.

swampyankee
2013-Feb-02, 03:31 AM
Klingons and Kzinti are too tame. Look at the dinosaurs. They never became very smart but look at how big they were. Now imagine humans in a few million years. Selective breeding is making us bigger. Intelligent aliens could be built like T-Rexes but with dextrous hands. The possibilities are infinite.

So frustrating responding to the banned, but...
1) there is no evidence that "selective breeding is making us bigger." Fatter maybe, but not bigger ;)
2) Both the Klingons and Kzinti are quite likely caricatures of current or past human ethnic groups. (So, I suspect are the Ferengi). Since human-like cultures may not be much more likely that humanoid ETs, the behavior could be slightly unpredictable.

Solfe
2013-Feb-02, 04:05 AM
I think that people over generalize. If you are tall, if your spouse is tall, you usually get tall offspring. But in being tall, and tall than average, they aren't bigger than normally possible, nor do they have offspring that have giants either.