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FieryIce
2004-Nov-09, 02:22 PM
The longest crater chain, to date, was found on Mars.

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars_compose.jpg

Lat: 64.203
Lon: 10.921E
Thermal Emission Imaging System CGI Mars Map (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=69.828125&LEFT_LON=359.670 94527&CENT_LAT=64.203125&CENT_LON=10.92094527&DISP _RES=32&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&DI SP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM =ZOOM&RESCALE=+64+)

To view the crater chain click on the CGI map and pan its length. This crater chain, one of two in this image, are the newer surface feature and cut across other craters. This crater chain spans down the cratered highlands an estimate of one third the distance from Mars northern pole to southern pole.

mickal555
2004-Nov-09, 02:25 PM
do you mean those dotted lines?

Oh BTW Welcome to BABB

frogesque
2004-Nov-09, 02:38 PM
That has to be just about the weirdest image from Mars yet. How does a meteor stream get sorted out into lines with fairly regular particle size to cause that kind of straffing over such a distance?

BTW, please accept my welcome to the board also.

snowcelt
2004-Nov-09, 02:40 PM
The longest crater chain, to date, was found on Mars.

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars_compose.jpg

Lat: 64.203
Lon: 10.921E
Thermal Emission Imaging System CGI Mars Map (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=69.828125&LEFT_LON=359.670 94527&CENT_LAT=64.203125&CENT_LON=10.92094527&DISP _RES=32&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&DI SP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM =ZOOM&RESCALE=+64+)

To view the crater chain click on the CGI map and pan its length. This crater chain, one of two in this image, are the newer surface feature and cut across other craters. This crater chain spans down the cratered highlands an estimate of one third the distance from Mars northern pole to southern pole.

I am not sure I understand this. You mean that the dotted lines are a series of impacts? If so, it looks like they came from the top of the screen and diverge. I wonder how this could be so.

kucharek
2004-Nov-09, 02:44 PM
Are you sure it's no artifact from image stiching or something like that?

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-09, 02:45 PM
The longest crater chain, to date, was found on Mars.

What?? No mention of an "alien war" as the cause of this chain??

frogesque
2004-Nov-09, 02:45 PM
I think they are parallel and what you see is a perspective effect. There is also another fainter line sloping down from the top RHS in the image.

I hope some of the expert imaging guys on the board can give a clearer interpretation of what's going on here.

What the GLPers will make of it dear knows #-o

mickal555
2004-Nov-09, 02:49 PM
ancent mars railroads?

Ut
2004-Nov-09, 03:12 PM
I think they are parallel and what you see is a perspective effect. There is also another fainter line sloping down from the top RHS in the image.

Nope, they're not parallel. If you follow the link and follow the lines, you'll find that the one just to the right of the crater extends a long distance upward, beyond where the "rails" would cross. I'm going to side with kucharek here.

frogesque
2004-Nov-09, 03:23 PM
OK Ut, I'll go with that interpretation. That would mean three seperate events causing straffing lines, any ideas regarding what's at work causing this sort of regularity?

MAPNUT
2004-Nov-09, 03:48 PM
It's hard to imagine how the one at the lower right could pass right through the small crater, make a ridge inside the crater and continue in the same line on the other side.

The one at the lower left looks like it skips off a ridge and flies some distance before coming down again.

ToSeek
2004-Nov-09, 04:00 PM
I think these are some sort of image stitching artifacts and will stick with that hypothesis unless someone can show me an actual camera image (not a mapping tool) that shows them. Too, these are large enough that they should show up on images like these:

http://pdsmaps.wr.usgs.gov/PDS/public/explorer/map/1100015848.jpg

http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/moc_atlas/mc5.jpg

and I don't see them.

Kullat Nunu
2004-Nov-09, 04:02 PM
No doubt they are image artefacts (seams). See how the map is a image mosaic (albedo map (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=67.015625&LEFT_LON=5.29594 527&CENT_LAT=64.203125&CENT_LON=10.92094527&DISP_R ES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=0&DISP _MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM=Z OOM&RESCALE=+32+) of the same region).

JohnW
2004-Nov-09, 04:18 PM
I thought at first the line on the left was an unusually long chain of craters. On closer inspection, the shadows don't match the illumination angle of the rest of the picture. I vote image-processing artifact.

The other strong line on the right, and the fainter lines crossing the picture at various angles, are obviously not made up of craters.

Wolverine
2004-Nov-09, 06:23 PM
You mean they're not impact craters from a spread of phaser fire? Darn. :(

FieryIce
2004-Nov-09, 06:53 PM
Those crater chains are not image seams, the albedo map compared to the relief map, the image seams do not come any where near those two crater chains. Specifically check the albedo mosaic as mentioned by Kullat.

kucharek
2004-Nov-09, 07:02 PM
I just recognized the first image isn't directly from the NASA site, but from http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars_compose.jpg

A quick look at http://www.craterchains.com/ assures me that it should easy qualify as woo-woo.

Example:


The Cunningham / Smart Theorem
That it takes intelligence to create such a perfect pattern of non randomness such as these OOOOOOOOOOO, there for, the most reasonable explanation for these types of "crater chains" being a nonrandom pattern, would be made by intelligence.

Every crystal is a perfect pattern of non randomness, but this doesn't imply at all that it was made by intelligence. Nature often creates regular patterns without any intelligence behind.

aurora
2004-Nov-09, 07:05 PM
Looks to me like a near surface fault that resulted in a series of small sinkholes.

That seems more likely in this case than an impact, but without actually investigating the surface it would be hard to be certain.

ToSeek
2004-Nov-09, 07:13 PM
Those crater chains are not image seams, the albedo map compared to the relief map, the image seams do not come any where near those two crater chains. Specifically check the albedo mosaic as mentioned by Kullat.

Prove it. Show me an image that shows those seams, rather than a map. I've shown you two images that don't.

Chip
2004-Nov-09, 07:15 PM
...On closer inspection, the shadows don't match the illumination angle of the rest of the picture. I vote image-processing artifact...

That was my impression too. The sunlit sides of the lines (if they were mini craters,) don't match the sunlit sides of the larger normal craters.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-09, 07:29 PM
Thank you ToSeek, but your first url does not work and the second shows a great image with the long and lat grid lines but no seams, try try again.

Laser Jock
2004-Nov-09, 07:34 PM
I don't see them in this view (http://pdsmaps.wr.usgs.gov/explorer-bin/mapmars3.cgi?WHEREFROM=PZ&VERSION=EASY&DATA_SET_NA ME=mars_mgs_mola_topo&PIXEL_TYPE=DEFAULT&SCALE=pix els/degree&PROJECTION=SINUSOIDAL&RESOLUTION=32&RESAMP_ METHOD=NEAREST_NEIGHBOR&BANDS_SELECTED=1&FORMAT=JP EG&LONBOX=14.305&LATBOX=8&GRIDLINE_FREQUENCY=none& STRETCH=NONE&LAT=64.000000&LON=9.5&LINE=256&SAMP=2 56) either. I think the large and small craters are the same as those in the picture in the OP.

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-09, 08:28 PM
A quick look at http://www.craterchains.com/ assures me that it should easy qualify as woo-woo.

I'm sorry...I assumed that everyone would recognize FieryIce...

...a short history...

About 6 months ago, a poster (Craterchains) started posting "stuff" about how crater chains on other planets and moons are actually evidence of an ancient alien war. FieryIce is Craterchains "partner" in this "theory". Craterchains was banned because he couldn't follow the rules of the board. FieryIce hasn't posted since then (that I know of)...until today.

snowcelt
2004-Nov-09, 08:38 PM
Well this sucks. You see something that jumps at you and you think, woo! Then, as per normal, it is a fool trying to make another fool. When I first saw that double track I hoped that it was something neat. I am glad I was not credulous. I sure wished to be.

I have little real understanding as to how things happen, but, even I saw something that was not right.

Wolverine
2004-Nov-09, 08:51 PM
It's rather simple to see the artifacting invovled. You can trace the seams in the imagery into other frames and across other surface features. Nothing mysterious.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-09, 09:02 PM
even I saw something that was not right.

Your exactly right snowcelt, there is definitely something not right. The images speak for themselves, ones like FAF can criticize me all they want, can put me down all they want but it does not affect the facts.

The facts remain.

mickal555
2004-Nov-09, 09:58 PM
oh fiddlesticks

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-09, 10:01 PM
...ones like FAF can criticize me all they want, can put me down all they want but it does not affect the facts.

Where have "I put you down"? (I assume that you're talking about me :)). All that I've ever said on the subject, is that there is no evidence to support the idea that crater chains are evidence of an ancient alien war.

ToSeek
2004-Nov-09, 10:03 PM
Thank you ToSeek, but your first url does not work and the second shows a great image with the long and lat grid lines but no seams, try try again.

The point of the second image is that it doesn't show what your image shows.

To retrieve the first image, you apparently have to reconstruct my steps, starting here (http://pdsmaps.wr.usgs.gov/PDS/public/explorer/html/marsintm.htm).

mickal555
2004-Nov-09, 10:06 PM
Thank you ToSeek, but your first url does not work and the second shows a great image with the long and lat grid lines but no seams, try try again.

The point of the second image is that it doesn't show what your image shows.

To retrieve the first image, you apparently have to reconstruct my steps, starting here (http://pdsmaps.wr.usgs.gov/PDS/public/explorer/html/marsintm.htm).
WOW website is pretty cool. 8)

ToSeek
2004-Nov-09, 10:14 PM
Another image (http://www.msss.com/mgcwg/mgm/mc05.jpg)

FieryIce
2004-Nov-09, 10:26 PM
Another image (http://www.msss.com/mgcwg/mgm/mc05.jpg)

It is a nice overal map image but it is too far from the surface to see fine surface detail.

That image ToSeek does look like it has a seam but the seam cuts through the larger crater and is not even close to the site of either of the crater chains in this image:

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars_compose.jpg
Thermal Emission Imaging System CGI Mars Map (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=69.828125&LEFT_LON=359.670 94527&CENT_LAT=64.203125&CENT_LON=10.92094527&DISP _RES=32&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&DI SP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM =ZOOM&RESCALE=+64+)
:)

frogesque
2004-Nov-09, 10:30 PM
Thanks ToSeek, that nails it as an image artifact. I looked hard but couln't be sure about seams but I was questioning the mechanisim that could cause long crater chains. The simple solution is always the best :lol:

smoothvirus
2004-Nov-09, 10:59 PM
I'm sure that's an image artifact. There's also a very faint, third line off to the right.

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-09, 11:05 PM
There's also a very faint, third line off to the right.

Darn you! I was just going to mention that! :)

Yeah there is certainly something wrong with this image...it shows "stuff" that just isn't there.

ToSeek
2004-Nov-09, 11:06 PM
That image ToSeek does look like it has a seam but the seam cuts through the larger crater and is not even close to the site of either of the crater chains in this image:

There is no reason to expect to see the same seams (or any seams, necessarily) from a completely different dataset.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for you to come up with some actual images that show your crater chains.

Ut
2004-Nov-10, 12:31 AM
It is a nice overal map image but it is too far from the surface to see fine surface detail.

Ummm, the image ToSeek posted seems to be at a much higher resolution than your example...

Morrolan
2004-Nov-10, 03:09 AM
I'm sorry...I assumed that everyone would recognize FieryIce...

...a short history...

About 6 months ago, a poster (Craterchains) started posting "stuff" about how crater chains on other planets and moons are actually evidence of an ancient alien war. FieryIce is Craterchains "partner" in this "theory". Craterchains was banned because he couldn't follow the rules of the board. FieryIce hasn't posted since then (that I know of)...until today.

yeah, i have definite echoes of déja vu here, R.A.F.... i wonder if we can make a prediction on how this thread will develop? #-o

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-10, 03:17 AM
...i wonder if we can make a prediction on how this thread will develop? #-o

Only time will tell. I am kinda surprised that FieryIce hasn't mentioned the "alien war" yet...but the thread is still young...

Chip
2004-Nov-10, 04:10 AM
...I am kinda surprised that FieryIce hasn't mentioned the "alien war" yet...but the thread is still young...

I'll mention it: there was no alien war. :wink: That leaves us open to other explanations the strongest of which is some form of image artifact. :D

FieryIce
2004-Nov-10, 02:46 PM
To stay on topic.

The beginning latitude/longitude is Lat: 73.781 Lon: 8.312E and the ending is Lat: 42.328 Lon: 18.249E.
:)

pghnative
2004-Nov-10, 02:47 PM
I'll mention it: there was no alien war.Strictly speaking, we have not proven that there was no alien war. Perhaps there was one, but no evidence was left that we can see. :D :D

FieryIce
2004-Nov-10, 07:56 PM
Staying on Topic

That means in length this crater chains stretches over 31.453 degrees latitude and angles 9.937 degrees in longitude, that is in Mars latitude and longitude distance.
:)

Evan
2004-Nov-10, 09:02 PM
Enough of this sillyness.

I took the photo and enchanced it to make the third line at the right of the image more evident. It is indicated with the yellow arrow.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/mline1.jpg

I then placed lines on the image that delineate the "features" in question.


http://vts.bc.ca/pics/mline2.jpg

I then duplicated the layer with the lines and recolored it. I then shifted the layer to the left until the line corresponding to the rightmost "feature" line in the image lies directly beside the line corresponding to the leftmost "feature" line.


http://vts.bc.ca/pics/mline3.jpg

The alignment is pixel for pixel perfect. This can only be a digital artifact as there is no plausible way to generate such actual lines on terrain, especially not a "crater chain".

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-10, 09:06 PM
FieryIce, I hate to break this to you, but you seem to be the only one on this thread who sees an actual chain of craters...and not some form of image artifact...so discussing how far it "stretches" is pointless...

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-10, 09:15 PM
This can only be a digital artifact as there is no plausible way to generate such actual lines on terrain, especially not a "crater chain".

Very nicely done! =D> =D> =D>

JohnW
2004-Nov-10, 10:23 PM
Enough of this sillyness.

...

The alignment is pixel for pixel perfect. This can only be a digital artifact as there is no plausible way to generate such actual lines on terrain, especially not a "crater chain".
Very impressive. That should, but probably won't, be the end of this debate.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-10, 10:54 PM
Evan's theory could have been only some what plausible if he had stopped with only one blue line adjacent to the yellow line but where he went wrong was creating the second blue line where there is no matching surface feature, creating a false and erroneous theory.

It looks good but full of errors and still does not explain how a stitch line could configure itself into round craters shoulder to shoulder.
[-X

Evan
2004-Nov-10, 11:03 PM
You don't get it. The second blue line you refer to is irrelevant and doesn't delineate anything. It is the previous center yellow line shifted left. There was no reason to erase it. It isn't a theory, it is an analysis. The analysis conclusively show the "features" to be display artifacts. If those lines were actually on the terrain surface they would have to be at an absolutely critical angle to each other, not parallel in order to appear parallel with the perspective induced by the viewing angle. The odds of them aligning perfectly from a chance viewing angle are astronomically small. The odds of them aligning if a digital artifact that repeats periodically are 100%.

pghnative
2004-Nov-10, 11:10 PM
.. If those lines were actually on the terrain surface they would have to be at an absolutely critical angle to each other, not parallel in order to appear parallel with the perspective induced by the viewing angle.So it's simple -- if FieryIce can find an image from a different viewing angle which shows these crater lines --- that'd be proof that Evan's analysis is incorrect.

Of course, so far the other images we have don't show these crater lines. This seems to be a bit of a problem, don't you think??

FieryIce
2004-Nov-10, 11:20 PM
how a stitch line could configure itself into round craters shoulder to shoulder

Evan's analysis then does not account for this question?

Evan
2004-Nov-10, 11:25 PM
FieryIce,

How familiar are you with graphics compression and decompression algorithms? Do you know what artifacts are produced by wavelet compression or fractal compression? I am a beta tester for a large graphics software house and I assure you that such artifacts can be produced by software.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-10, 11:57 PM
Evan, that's nice you work for a graphics company but there is no way you can explain graphics compression and decompression algorithms resulting in round crater formations.

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_compose3.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composeu2.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composeu1.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composea.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composed1.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composed2.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composed3.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composed4.jpg

http://www.craterchains.com/gales/mars/mars_composed5.jpg

The entire span of the crater chain.

Evan
2004-Nov-10, 11:59 PM
I see you are completely ignoring the total improbability of the alignment issue that I pointed out.


Evan, that's nice you work for a graphics company but there is no way you can explain graphics compression and decompression algorithms resulting in round crater formations.

Actually, I can explain how artifacts could result that resemble round formations.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-11, 12:08 AM
Crater Chains have a beginning and an end comprised of round craters, this so called stitch lines or artifact idea would be a uniform line not consisting of round craters and not showing erosion.
:D

Evan
2004-Nov-11, 12:28 AM
Like all other lossy compression schemes, fractal compression also introduces artifacts. These include softness and substitution of details with other details. (my emphasis)

From here (http://www.netnam.vn/unescocourse/computervision/1092.htm)

Fractal compression isn't the only compression that exhibits unexpected artifacts. Many algorithms do, especially at edges.

Please explain why compression artifacts of a landscape with small round craters that do belong cannot produce artifacts that look like small round craters.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-11, 04:10 PM
Let's quote Themis:


Note: this THEMIS visual image has not been radiometrically nor geometrically calibrated for this preliminary release. An empirical correction has been performed to remove instrumental effects. A linear shift has been applied in the cross-track and down-track direction to approximate spacecraft and planetary motion. Fully calibrated and geometrically projected images will be released through the Planetary Data System in accordance with Project policies at a later time.

The image calibrating done is not Fractal compression.

Let's quote Evan's linked page on fractual compression:


fractal compression is asymmetrical. Although it takes a long time to compress an image, decompression is very fast. These asymmetrical methods are well suited to such applications as video on a CD-ROM where the user doesn't care about compression but does expect to see images quickly.

Left field!
:)

ToSeek
2004-Nov-11, 04:14 PM
Let's quote Themis:


Note: this THEMIS visual image has not been radiometrically nor geometrically calibrated for this preliminary release. An empirical correction has been performed to remove instrumental effects. A linear shift has been applied in the cross-track and down-track direction to approximate spacecraft and planetary motion. Fully calibrated and geometrically projected images will be released through the Planetary Data System in accordance with Project policies at a later time.

The image calibrating done is not Fractal compression.



That disclaimer does not apply to the image under discussion and is therefore irrelevant.

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-11, 04:38 PM
Left field!

...I don't know...third base! :lol:

2004-Nov-11, 05:14 PM
Well this sucks. You see something that jumps at you and you think, woo! Then, as per normal, it is a fool trying to make another fool. When I first saw that double track I hoped that it was something neat. I am glad I was not credulous. I sure wished to be.

I have little real understanding as to how things happen, but, even I saw something that was not right.

My assumption was that this is where Bottomos impacted the surface.

Laser Jock
2004-Nov-11, 05:16 PM
Left field!

...I don't know...third base! :lol:

Actually, the left fielders name is "Why" (http://fisher.osu.edu/~tomassini_1/whotext.html).

=D> :lol: =D>

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-11, 08:12 PM
Actually, the left fielders name is "Why" (http://fisher.osu.edu/~tomassini_1/whotext.html).

...I'm glad that someone recognized the reference. :)

Evan
2004-Nov-11, 11:37 PM
The cgi script application used to present the images on the web page is a perfect candidate for fractal compression. They (NASA) have all the time they need to assemble the mosaic before hand and apply the fractal compression to it. Fractal compression (if you read the reference) has the property of being extremely scalable without scaling artifacts such as pixelization or aliasing. Also, it is fast on the decompression display end. That web page make intensive use of scaling in the display so fractal compression is the best choice. The input data doesn't change in real time.

However, the mosaic image contains sharp edges at the boundaries of the individual images that it is composed of. This is what FieryIce is expecting to see. Fractal compression (and for that matter any other lossy compression) is not good at representing sudden changes, especially narrow lines. In the case of fractal compression features in the image are converted to formulas that describe how to draw features found in the image. When a feature is found that is too difficult to describe algorithmically (too high a frequency)[1] then some other small feature will be substituted. If it is a sharp line that needs to be described that substitute feature will be repeated as necessary to approximate the line. If the match between two parts of the mosaic is good enough then the artifact disappears. When the match isn't good enough it appears.

[1] A sudden change from dark to light over the span of a single pair of pixels is analogous to a square wave. A square wave is made up from an infinite series of harmonics added together. This is where the algorithm in fractal compression breaks since it cannot economically approximate infinity.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-12, 04:55 AM
Email sent for confirmation as to if it is the longest.
We never bothered to question if it was a topographical feature or not. It obviously is not a screw up with the picture.


Subject: Re: Longest pit / crater chain on Mars
From: "Phil Christensen" <phil.christensen@asu.edu>
Date: Thu, November 11, 2004 9:50 am
To: craterchains@craterchains.com


Unfortunately, I'm not sure if it is or not.
Phil C.

On Nov 10, 2004, at 7:00 AM, craterchains@craterchains.com wrote:

> Dr. Christensen
> While looking for a Lat. Lon. location on the Mars map Ms. Gale
> Smart, a
> co-investigator, came across this image of a pit or crater chain that
> we
> think may be the longest one found on Mars, so far. If possible can
> this
> be confirmed?
>
> Sincerely
> Mr. Norval L. Cunningham
> Principal Investigator
>


So consequently Dr. Phil Christensen is unsure if this crater chain is the longest or not.

Thank you Evan for you short indepth literary composition on fractal compression, I am sure there are some amateur astronomers out there that might be interested.
=D> :D =D>

Evan
2004-Nov-12, 05:18 AM
So, the fact that someone else shares your mistaken belief proves your case? I have given indesputable evidence as to the nature of the features seen in the the reconstructed images.
So far you have not given a single piece of evidence or even plausible reasoning that explains and substantiates how the image artifacts could have been created if they were actually features on the surface of Mars.

Never confuse belief with knowledge.

It seems that you have run out of rebuttals. Not suprising as there are none left available to you.

Believe what you wish, I'm not going to waste any more time.

Kesh
2004-Nov-12, 06:33 AM
Uh, FireyIce, that response to your email is extremely ambiguous. He could be saying one of two things:

1) "I can't be sure if it's the longest."
or
2) "I can't be sure if it's a crater chain."

Until you get clarification on that, you certainly can't claim he's backing you.

kucharek
2004-Nov-12, 07:15 AM
He labels himself as a Principle Investigator and his colleague as a co-investgator. Until now, I cannot see any investigation done by them. They are just poking around on some computer generated images and never provide any original image data. That's the first thing a real investigator would do before developing any far-fetching hypotheses.

Harald

Evan
2004-Nov-12, 07:32 AM
My Karellian Bear Dog is the principal investigator around here. She often believes that there are things hiding in the shadows and behind trees. She often trys to convince me but I usually won't buy it.

kucharek
2004-Nov-12, 08:30 AM
Let's approach it from another direction: What kind of pretty dumb weapon would have to be used to get these chains? Some Gatling gun firing 5000 nukes a minute to hit another spacecraft? And all miss and hit that planet behind the target? I mean, we have fire-and-forget missiles where the pilot marks its targets, fires and gets away. We don't shoot thousands of massive warheads on one target to bring it down.
And those aliens had nothing better?

eburacum45
2004-Nov-12, 03:17 PM
The artefacts are not in this image either
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/globalData/hi-res/regions/02_19/

ToSeek
2004-Nov-12, 03:27 PM
The artefacts are not in this image either
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/globalData/hi-res/regions/02_19/

If there were a crater chain, it would cross this image (http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M08/M0808048.html) (according to the map segment just north of the one you supply). I don't see it.

Nor this one (http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/SP249907.html) to the south.

Ut
2004-Nov-12, 03:43 PM
The artefacts are not in this image either
http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/globalData/hi-res/regions/02_19/

If there were a crater chain, it would cross this image (http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/m07_m12/images/M08/M0808048.html) (according to the map segment just north of the one you supply). I don't see it.

Nor this one (http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery/ab1_m04/images/SP249907.html) to the south.

Let's face it, if there were crater chains, they'd show up in images. This is something pointed out a bazillion times here.

Let the troll starve.

tofu
2004-Nov-12, 06:14 PM
Welcome back CraterChains (I'll call you FieryIce now if that's what you like, but I think it's funny that you left your email address in message above).

Here is FieryIce's original image. I numbered the large craters.
http://www.seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/FI01.gif

And here's the image of the same area posted by ToSeek with the same craters numbered.
http://www.seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/TS01.gif

ToSeek's image appears have been taken from directly above. In case you have trouble orienting yourself, here are the images again with a couple of prominent features circled.

http://www.seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/FI02.gif

http://www.seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/TS02.gif

Okay FieryIce. If the crater chain is actually a crater chain, why doesn't it appear on both images?

Let me just head you off at the pass and point out that if crater chains like the one you believe you see, actually existed and were actually natural formations, NASA would have no reason to hide them.

On the other hand, if crater chains like the one you believe you see, actually existed but were evidence of alien life, NASA would have a tremendous incentive to show them to the public. Can you imagine how much money they'd get for research and future missions? Hell, we'd probably have a manned mission on its way to Mars by the end of the year. All the little petty things that we humans fight over? Suddenly they'd all seem insignificant. We'd all be united in the cause of finding out exactly who these aliens are and what threat they pose.

Or maybe you've come to a board filled with people (like me) who love astronomy and the mere thought of the existence of alien life - love it so much that most of us would volunteer for a one way trip to Mars without a second thought - would gladly go there and then run out of oxygen and die with huge smiles on our faces just because we got to see it without our own eyes - and yet we refuse to accept the evidence you show us. Yeah, maybe that's it. Maybe you're Jesus, standing here showing us exactly what we've wanted all our lives to see, but we're all doubting Thomases.

The final option though, is that maybe these are just image stitching artifacts. Maybe the Mars is actually a sphere and therefore when it's represented in a flat image, artifacts like these sometimes occur.

Look dude. There are lots of real crater chains out there. You messed up though. You picked an image that is not a crater chain. Just be a man and say oops and then let's go back to the "Against the Mainstream" forum and talk about alien war. ok?

ToSeek
2004-Nov-12, 07:34 PM
And here's the image of the same area posted by ToSeek with the same craters numbered.

eburacum45 posted that image, not me.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-13, 03:45 PM
Well I have to admit a longer crater chain has been identified by Pete.
To quote his words:


It didn't take long. Here's another very similar artefact - this one is much longer, and again exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit:
Themis site again
You can track this artefact all the way up to latitude 71°, and down to about 25°.

Themis site again (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=64.015625&LEFT_LON=128.077 19527&CENT_LAT=61.203125&CENT_LON=133.70219527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOO M=PAN&MAP_IMG.x=413&MAP_IMG.y=12)
:)

um3k
2004-Nov-13, 04:14 PM
Well I have to admit a longer crater chain has been identified by Pete.
To quote his words:


It didn't take long. Here's another very similar artefact - this one is much longer, and again exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit:
Themis site again
You can track this artefact all the way up to latitude 71°, and down to about 25°.

Themis site again (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=64.015625&LEFT_LON=128.077 19527&CENT_LAT=61.203125&CENT_LON=133.70219527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOO M=PAN&MAP_IMG.x=413&MAP_IMG.y=12)
:)
If it were real, there are a grat deal of images it would be visible in:
http://themis-data.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=69.359375&LEFT_LON=129.764 69527&CENT_LAT=66.546875&CENT_LON=135.38969527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&DISP_GROUND_TRACKS=2&DISP_OBS_AGE=0 &TNAIL_LINK=V02979006&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM=SELECT&NEW_D ATASET=Vis+%26+IR
I conclude that FieryIce is either a troll or a moron.

FieryIce
2004-Nov-13, 04:36 PM
Yes, um3k, the crater chains is visible in that image from the url you provided. To even demonstrate how visible try eliminating or clicking between the different datasets, infrared and visible or as you did just look at both together.
:)

Evan
2004-Nov-13, 05:48 PM
I conclude that FieryIce is either a troll or a moron.

Agree.

Ut
2004-Nov-13, 06:32 PM
Yes, um3k, the crater chains is visible in that image from the url you provided. To even demonstrate how visible try eliminating or clicking between the different datasets, infrared and visible or as you did just look at both together.
:)

Maybe they're visible in that link because it's the same image you posted, eh?

tofu
2004-Nov-13, 07:14 PM
I conclude that FieryIce is either a troll or a moron.

agreed. But hey, check this out:

http://www.phpbb.com/phpBB/faq.php?mode=bbcode#8

You can edit your post and make that long link you posted short, like this (http://themis-data.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=69.359375&LEFT_LON=129.764 69527&CENT_LAT=66.546875&CENT_LON=135.38969527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&DISP_GROUND_TRACKS=2&DISP_OBS_AGE=0 &TNAIL_LINK=V02979006&PAN_SELECT_ZOOM=SELECT&NEW_D ATASET=Vis+%26+IR)

Kesh
2004-Nov-13, 09:36 PM
Well I have to admit a longer crater chain has been identified by Pete.
To quote his words:


It didn't take long. Here's another very similar artefact - this one is much longer, and again exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit:
Themis site again
You can track this artefact all the way up to latitude 71°, and down to about 25°.

Themis site again (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=64.015625&LEFT_LON=128.077 19527&CENT_LAT=61.203125&CENT_LON=133.70219527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOO M=PAN&MAP_IMG.x=413&MAP_IMG.y=12)
:)

Who's Pete? The person you emailed earlier was named Phil.

kucharek
2004-Nov-13, 09:58 PM
Well I have to admit a longer crater chain has been identified by Pete.
To quote his words:


It didn't take long. Here's another very similar artefact - this one is much longer, and again exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit:
Themis site again
You can track this artefact all the way up to latitude 71°, and down to about 25°.

Themis site again (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=64.015625&LEFT_LON=128.077 19527&CENT_LAT=61.203125&CENT_LON=133.70219527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOO M=PAN&MAP_IMG.x=413&MAP_IMG.y=12)
:)

Pete is absolutely correct. he discovered an artifact. An artifact of image processing. That it is "exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit" should ring a bell...

R.A.F.
2004-Nov-13, 10:53 PM
um3k...is it really necessary to call other posters names?

Evan
2004-Nov-13, 11:04 PM
is it really necessary to call other posters names?

The best defense against a charge of defamation is truth.

JohnW
2004-Nov-15, 04:34 PM
R.A.F. is right. The profound silliness of FieryIce's claim has been established, but that's no excuse for personal attacks. Let's stay focused on the evidence.

Laser Jock
2004-Nov-15, 05:01 PM
Well I have to admit a longer crater chain has been identified by Pete.
To quote his words:


It didn't take long. Here's another very similar artefact - this one is much longer, and again exactly parallel to the Surveyor orbit:
Themis site again
You can track this artefact all the way up to latitude 71°, and down to about 25°.

Themis site again (http://themis.asu.edu/mars-bin/mars_cgi_map.pl?TOP_LAT=64.015625&LEFT_LON=128.077 19527&CENT_LAT=61.203125&CENT_LON=133.70219527&DIS P_RES=64&DISP_DATASET=Visible&DISP_MAP_DATASET=1&D ISP_MAP_PROJ=0&TNAIL_LINK=20041105a&PAN_SELECT_ZOO M=PAN&MAP_IMG.x=413&MAP_IMG.y=12)
:)

Why don't you admit that you were wrong on the other "crater chain" before goint on to another. You are being evasive. [-X

BTW, nice stitching artifact displayed again. I see two: one just to the left of the main crater and one to the right.

The Bad Astronomer
2004-Nov-16, 12:19 PM
fieryice is a sock puppet, and has been banned.




I conclude that FieryIce is either a troll or a moron.

um3k, no ad hominems here. Consider yourself strongly warned.