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View Full Version : Star Wars Ep II review - SPOILERS



Irishman
2002-Jun-12, 09:12 AM
I have a couple of comments relating to the review of Attack of the Clones.

First off, describing the movie overall, you state:

It had some very weak moments, generally whenever the actors had to actually act. The emotional scenes were fairly wooden, and the dialogue was stilted.

I will note that Lucas was intending for it to be wooden and stilted. The May 17, 2002, edition of Entertainment Weekly has an interview with Lucas.


We're working in a particular kind of style -- a sort of theatrical style very prevalent in movies in the 1930s. I don't use, you know, 'reality acting.' That's not what these movies are."

My thoughts when first reading that description: "... style very prevalent in movies in the 1930s - aka bad." (shrug)

Second, you point out the missing star in the map incident.

[quote]My problem with this is that the person who removed the system from the map had to have been very good (and this is even commented in the movie), and yet they forgot to change the stars around it to compensate! That's pretty sloppy on the part of the Bad Guy.

I wouldn't think sloppy. Here's my interpretation. It is difficult to get access to the data modification section of the library files. Anyone can read-only access, but only specific people (I think they mentioned Jedi) can edit. The person wanted to hide the star's existence, which is why he deleted the entry. However, he couldn't alter the behavior of the surrounding stars, because they would still be physically accessible. And as long as they showed up physically, it would be quickly determined if the map didn't correspond to the stars. So he's counting more on nobody bothering to run the math to notice there's something missing.

In the other Star Wars thread, some find it odd that Obiwan and Yoda don't automatically figure out the logical conclusion. I think the point of this scene is that it is "impossible" to consider someone could remove data from the library. That's why they both miss the obvious - they are preconditioned to know the difficulty of modifying the database. You know, it takes a 5th level Jedi Master with security clearance QQ and a PhD in Library Science to get on the waiting list for approval by the InterStellar Information Review Board for access to the Library Files Editorial Facility. There are 13 security features to gain access to the Facility, including DNA, retinal scan, brainwave evaluation, plus manipulation of the force to operate one of the locks. Because the screening and security procedures are so tight, and the Jedi Masters are aware of how tight they are, they don't believe it's possible, so they dismiss it without consciously considering it. It takes the innocent children who aren't loaded down with preconceptions to say, "Well, duh, it was deleted."

Roy Batty
2002-Jun-12, 10:35 AM
Maybe its in the books, but I don't remember it was emphasised that much in the film how difficult it was to edit an entry. But ok, you kind of have to infer it for it to make sense I suppose /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

p.s. even if the style was deliberate..the acting was awful! especially painful watching people you know can act well, not doing so (ie Ewan McGregor)
Thank god for C.Lee as Saruman... errr.. I mean Ct.Dooku /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roy Batty on 2002-06-12 06:39 ]</font>

Russ
2002-Jun-12, 08:40 PM
On 2002-06-12 05:12, Irishman wrote:

Second, you point out the missing star in the map incident.

That's why they both miss the obvious - they are preconditioned to know the difficulty of modifying the database. You know, it takes a 5th level Jedi Master with security clearance QQ and a PhD in Library Science to get on the waiting list for approval by the InterStellar Information Review Board for access to the Library Files Editorial Facility. There are 13 security features to gain access to the Facility, including DNA, retinal scan, brainwave evaluation, plus manipulation of the force to operate one of the locks. Because the screening and security procedures are so tight, and the Jedi Masters are aware of how tight they are, they don't believe it's possible, so they dismiss it without consciously considering it. It takes the innocent children who aren't loaded down with preconceptions to say, "Well, duh, it was deleted."

Given the technical skills displayed by the Jedi in all of the SW movies, I would say that they would make AWESOME hackers. "Waiting list? What waiting list?" Hackit, crackit & jackit!
Just a thought. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

pvtpylot
2002-Jun-12, 08:57 PM
On 2002-06-12 05:12, Irishman wrote:

I wouldn't think sloppy. Here's my interpretation. It is difficult to get access to the data modification section of the library files. Anyone can read-only access, but only specific people (I think they mentioned Jedi) can edit. The person wanted to hide the star's existence, which is why he deleted the entry. However, he couldn't alter the behavior of the surrounding stars, because they would still be physically accessible. And as long as they showed up physically, it would be quickly determined if the map didn't correspond to the stars. So he's counting more on nobody bothering to run the math to notice there's something missing.

My take, according to how the movie's logic ran, is that Obi-wan was supposed to find the missing planet, it just wasn't supposed to be immediately obvious. It's made quite clear at the end of the flick that everything we'd just seen had happened according to Palpatine's plan. The clone army had to be brought into play to put down the rebellion, and that wasn't going to happen if no one ever finds the missing planet because it was hidden too well, right? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2002-Jun-13, 08:58 AM
On 2002-06-12 16:57, pvtpylot wrote:
My take, according to how the movie's logic ran, is that Obi-wan was supposed to find the missing planet, it just wasn't supposed to be immediately obvious. It's made quite clear at the end of the flick that everything we'd just seen had happened according to Palpatine's plan. The clone army had to be brought into play to put down the rebellion, and that wasn't going to happen if no one ever finds the missing planet because it was hidden too well, right? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif


Which gets back to the Obvious Point, Episode III, is going to be The Darkest Movie, Ever Filmed!

For a look into Why, and Two pretty Nifty Critiques, of the First Movie, check out the First Couple of Links, on the Home Page, (http://www.davidbrin.com) of one of my Favorite Authors; sorry TBA.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ZaphodBeeblebrox on 2002-06-13 04:59 ]</font>

Irishman
2002-Jun-13, 09:21 AM
Roy, I didn't say that description was in the movie. It is my inference. It is merely a logical conclusion - can't have any old Jawa sneaking in and adding and deleting planets to the database as a fraternity prank. I would think access to editing information would be strictly controlled - it would have to be.

Russ, what if at least one of the steps has Jedi working the stations? You can't use your mind tricks on someone who knows them.

pvtpylot, I did think it odd that the guy who supposedly set up the clone contract was a Jedi and had then died without anyone else knowing about it. I guess Palpatine needed some way to get the clones discovered without pointing it out himself. Maybe it makes sense not to cover all traces, just the big neon flags, and let them find it in time.

I figured he'd come up with some justification after he got approval to raise the army, he could then annouce he'd found someone with an army waiting to be used, and solve his problem that way. But having the Jedi discover them is even better. If it wasn't his plan, it worked out beautifully for him.

Matherly
2002-Jun-13, 02:30 PM
On 2002-06-13 05:21, Irishman wrote:
can't have any old Jawa sneaking in and adding and deleting planets to the database as a fraternity prank.


Carl takes a moment to ponder Jawa U, shakes his head, and continues.



On 2002-06-13 05:21, Irishman wrote:
pvtpylot, I did think it odd that the guy who supposedly set up the clone contract was a Jedi and had then died without anyone else knowing about it.


My wife and I have this theory. THe Jedi who ordered the clones was really Darth Sideous master, who Sideous whacked to get the Sith Master job. Sideous might not have even known about the clones until Old Ben found them, at which point he realized what was going on and hatched a new plan (note... I've only seen the film once, so there may be some details I missed that invalidate this)

Fox Cutter
2002-Jun-13, 04:55 PM
On 2002-06-13 05:21, Irishman wrote:
pvtpylot, I did think it odd that the guy who supposedly set up the clone contract was a Jedi and had then died without anyone else knowing about it. I guess Palpatine needed some way to get the clones discovered without pointing it out himself. Maybe it makes sense not to cover all traces, just the big neon flags, and let them find it in time.


Speaking just plot wise, there is also one other advantage to this arrangement. One of the main things the Sith want to do is destroy the Jedi. The Clone Army is a good start in that direction.

Think about it like this, the army was started around the time (if not just before) Phantom Menace. Ordered by a Jedi master, without the knowledge or approval of the Senate.

The Army is ready, just in time for them to be used against the Separatists, who are lead by a former Jedi Master. And when they clone army does arrive, it's being lead by Yoda himself.

This is all really convenient, and from an outside viewer seems a bit contrived. I suspect the Senate will start seeing it that way, and it will help sow distrust of the Jedi among the members. Making them more willing to allow the Jedi Purge to happen after Epp 3.

Of course that's just my take on it.

--Fox Cutter
Long Time Poster, First Time Reader

pvtpylot
2002-Jun-13, 05:41 PM
On 2002-06-13 10:30, Matherly wrote:
My wife and I have this theory. THe Jedi who ordered the clones was really Darth Sideous master, who Sideous whacked to get the Sith Master job. Sideous might not have even known about the clones until Old Ben found them, at which point he realized what was going on and hatched a new plan (note... I've only seen the film once, so there may be some details I missed that invalidate this)


I suppose that's possible (I can't say for sure having never been invited to a Lucas scripting session /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif ), but since the events that led to Obi-wan's discovery of the clone army were also contrived by Palpitine I think he was meant to discover them all along. When Obi-wan went to Yoda and the kids to get their advice I had this mental image of Palpitine pacing about the palace muttering, "Jeez, what to I have to do, go over there and point this out myself?"
/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pvtpylot on 2002-06-13 13:41 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: pvtpylot on 2002-06-13 13:42 ]</font>

pvtpylot
2002-Jun-13, 05:44 PM
On 2002-06-13 12:55, Fox Cutter wrote:

This is all really convenient, and from an outside viewer seems a bit contrived. I suspect the Senate will start seeing it that way, and it will help sow distrust of the Jedi among the members. Making them more willing to allow the Jedi Purge to happen after Epp 3.

Of course that's just my take on it.

--Fox Cutter
Long Time Poster, First Time Reader

Wow! I hadn't thought about it that far ahead yer, but that sure does make sense. Of course, if Lucas is reading this he's probably pulling out the eraser as we speak. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2002-Jun-13, 05:51 PM
On 2002-06-13 13:44, pvtpylot wrote:


On 2002-06-13 12:55, Fox Cutter wrote:

This is all really convenient, and from an outside viewer seems a bit contrived. I suspect the Senate will start seeing it that way, and it will help sow distrust of the Jedi among the members. Making them more willing to allow the Jedi Purge to happen after Epp 3.

Of course that's just my take on it.

--Fox Cutter
Long Time Poster, First Time Reader

Wow! I hadn't thought about it that far ahead yer, but that sure does make sense. Of course, if Lucas is reading this he's probably pulling out the eraser as we speak. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif


Yeah, he'll probably make the Purge, happen During, EpisodeIII!

g99
2002-Jul-01, 10:22 PM
Can i ask, why would you keep all of the star charts in one place? why didn't he look on an old map or in the map in his star cruiser? I can't belive they changed all of the maps in the galaxy and deleted the planet from them? Also a bit of being nit picky: how can they see that the stars are still moving around it if it is a map? Maps are usually static to allow people to easily find things over and over again. Or if it does move, the stars would be moving so slowly that they would be inperceptable the the eye.