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Trebuchet
2013-Dec-04, 01:30 AM
A major aspect of fiction, especially Science Fiction, is "the willing suspension of disbelief". For me, Doctor Who makes pretty much no sense if you really think about it, but I'm quite willing to suspend that and enjoy the ride. Sometimes, however, they just stretch it a little too far and pretty much spoil the effect. The classic example to me is when Indiana Jones is seen climbing onto a submerging submarine, the sub is then shown going some miles on a map, and we see him climbing off. It really broke the spell of an otherwise enjoyable movie. Even though every other scene in the film was just about equally ridiculous if you actually thought about it.

What are your examples of breaking the suspension of disbelief?

ABR.
2013-Dec-04, 01:36 AM
Same series -- Indiana Jones climbs into a lead-lined refrigerator, which is then hurled a great distance during a nuclear bomb test. He survives with no more than a few scratches and bruises.

Solfe
2013-Dec-04, 01:47 AM
Final Cut has a wacky moment where Robin Williams remembers he has a necklace from his childhood and once he does remember he is wearing it. Since you could see he wasn't wearing it earlier, with scenes specifically showing his neck, it is a bit odd. I think it was supposed to be some sort of mind freak, but failed.

Swift
2013-Dec-04, 02:30 AM
What are your examples of breaking the suspension of disbelief?
Sorry to say, but pretty much all of Doctor Who. I know there are many people around here who love it, but it always seemed rather silly nonsense to me.

starcanuck64
2013-Dec-04, 03:04 AM
The asteroid chase scene from The Empire Strikes Back is one of my less favorite Star Wars moments. The giant space slug alone doesn't seem very likely and the crew wandering around in what should be at least partial vacuum(the slug still has its mouth open to space) with breathing masks always makes me groan.

schlaugh
2013-Dec-04, 03:39 AM
Pretty much any sci-fi film made after 2001 - A Space Odyssey. The movies aren't any less fun, but I know better when the laws of physics are violated, especially when characters get bounced around like rag dolls and then jump up to win the fight. Come to think of it, almost any modern action film breaks that suspension of disbelief but (hopefully) the entertainment value is high enough that I say "oh well, it's just a movie" and keep munching my popcorn.

Gillianren
2013-Dec-04, 04:14 AM
Sorry to say, but pretty much all of Doctor Who. I know there are many people around here who love it, but it always seemed rather silly nonsense to me.

Likewise. You know, many years ago, a boyfriend (long since ex) said that he believed that all fiction was entitled to one great impossibility for you to suspend disbelief over. No, you kind of can't believe a man can fly, but okay--strange visitor from another world, etc. It's only when they start piling more and more onto that, like giant islands of kryptonite or whatever, that you start running into problems. (He said this as we were on our way out of Face/Off.) But that actually isn't my problem with Doctor Who; in the original, at least, I can't get beyond the production values. It looks a bit junior-high. Also, I've never found the character all that interesting.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 07:30 AM
Not even in Sci-Fi; the various Murder She Wrote/Scooby-Doo type mystery shows where, no matter where the protagonists go, there's a mystery of just the type they happen to be good at happening right then and there.

Gillianren
2013-Dec-04, 08:01 AM
Graham and I watch an anime called Detective Conan (Case Closed in the US, for legal reasons), where the cops have started commenting on it. "Wait, you're at the scene of a crime? Again?"

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 08:15 AM
On Smallville, they eventually established that one of the main reasons why Clark wasn't spending his every waking moment in police custody for questioning was that the town's sheriff was an old friend of Johnathan Kent and basically let it slide every time something "weird" went down. When that guy got replaced with a stranger, the first thing she did was drop by the farm to inform the Kents that there was literally a new Sheriff in town, their family's extremely colorful record would be on her desk 24/7, and she would be keeping an eye on them from now on. I thought it was the most realistic plot point of the entire show.

geonuc
2013-Dec-04, 10:17 AM
Based on what I read on this forum and others I haunt, I might have a higher threshold of willingness to suspend disbelief. Take Gravity, for example. A lot sciency people didn't like it because of all the insults to orbital mechanics or whatever. Me, I saw those but looked right past them and enjoyed the film. I even thought China Syndrome was enjoyable at the time (and if you know who I am, that says something).

My threshold probably lies near where the disbelief requires me to accept some ATM concept held by people in the real world and that bothers me a lot. I'm probably not going to enjoy a movie whose premise includes an anti-vac premise, for example. Note that my China Syndrome example above challenges this threshold, so I guess even that is not a bright line for me.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 10:32 AM
For me, accepting a physical or scientific suspension is usually much easier than accepting unrealistic behaviors from people, or more than one unrealistic coincidence, or a Deus Ex Machina. If the bad science or fantasy physics is handled consistently, I'm usually OK with it (May The Force Be With You!) by imagining the story takes place in a universe with different ground rules.

However, I have limits. If a story is supposed to be set in the real world and a plot point hinges on a mistaken or false idea or well-debunked urban legend, especially one easily researched, I usually am disappointed. If the story (for example) contains unrepentant action-hero physics or other played-out tropes and yet does not at least hang a lampshade on that fact and wink at the audience, I cringe a little.

profloater
2013-Dec-04, 10:35 AM
you accept a dramatic premise, for example ghosts, and suspend belief to explore with the author some suppositions. The break comes if the premise is real life and the author chooses to break real life rules. In Alien for example I accepted the whole alien life cycle as a fascinating imagination but I was worried by the very rapid growth rate of the infant alien, it seemed to me even an alien life form has some limits to rate of growth.

Moose
2013-Dec-04, 12:14 PM
The asteroid chase scene from The Empire Strikes Back is one of my less favorite Star Wars moments. The giant space slug alone doesn't seem very likely and the crew wandering around in what should be at least partial vacuum(the slug still has its mouth open to space) with breathing masks always makes me groan.

Technically, our sky is open to space. The slug not being air-tight isn't the problem as much as is the lack of gravity to hold down any sort of atmosphere.

Solfe
2013-Dec-04, 01:14 PM
Every single 2nd season appearance of Whoopi Goldberg on Star Trek TNG destroyed my ability to suspend disbelief. At some point, she became interesting and therefore, much less of a distraction.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 01:27 PM
The asteroid chase scene from The Empire Strikes Back is one of my less favorite Star Wars moments. The giant space slug alone doesn't seem very likely and the crew wandering around in what should be at least partial vacuum(the slug still has its mouth open to space) with breathing masks always makes me groan.

The novelization of the film mentions that Han had extended the ship's force fields some distance around the Falcon, allowing a little air to stay around locally. Since Original Star Wars had the ship tractored into the Death Star's landing bay with no doors, I suppose it's established technology within the SW-verse.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 01:43 PM
Anytime a character gets knocked out and recovers instantly. By itself that's bad enough, but they usually compound the problem by having a doctor say "Oh, he'll be fine, it's just a minor concussion."

Swift
2013-Dec-04, 02:29 PM
I even thought China Syndrome was enjoyable at the time (and if you know who I am, that says something).
Yeah, but Jane Fonda still looked pretty good then. ;)

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-04, 03:54 PM
But that actually isn't my problem with Doctor Who; in the original, at least, I can't get beyond the production values. It looks a bit junior-high. Also, I've never found the character all that interesting.

Have you seen the 2005 to present reboot, or just the originals from the 60's and 70's? The lousy production values of the Tom Baker ones which were shown on PBS put me off of trying Who for a long time.

ETA: In the recent ones, at least, the companion characters are generally more interesting than the Doctor himself.

I agree that the whole asteroid field scene in Star Wars was bad.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-04, 04:16 PM
At least they didn't say asteroid belt, that would have got me in a slappin' mood.

Maybe asteroid "field" denotes the remains of an exploded planet? Since we know there's at least one of those around the Star Wars galaxy. And if you count the Expanded Universe, several.

jokergirl
2013-Dec-04, 05:59 PM
I have that problem with Foundation. All right, so it is not entirely natural, but a long history over several planets with homogenous tech level and societal structure everywhere? Not one planet invented emancipation? Sorry, it just doesn't work for me.

And yes, I know there is historical precedence, but it still won't fly for me.

redshifter
2013-Dec-04, 06:32 PM
There almost always has to be at least some level of disbelief suspension; otherwise there'd be very little fiction and even less SF out there because no one would be interested in any of it.

starcanuck64
2013-Dec-04, 11:34 PM
Technically, our sky is open to space. The slug not being air-tight isn't the problem as much as is the lack of gravity to hold down any sort of atmosphere.

Right, if there wasn't enough of a gravitational gradient to hold a gaseous envelope around the asteroid then there probably wasn't going to be air inside a giant space slug that hangs out with it's mouth open waiting for passing suped-up space freighters to land inside it.

starcanuck64
2013-Dec-04, 11:35 PM
The novelization of the film mentions that Han had extended the ship's force fields some distance around the Falcon, allowing a little air to stay around locally. Since Original Star Wars had the ship tractored into the Death Star's landing bay with no doors, I suppose it's established technology within the SW-verse.

Now this is taking things too far.;)

Noclevername
2013-Dec-05, 01:15 AM
Now this is taking things too far.;)

To infinity, and beyond!

Tog
2013-Dec-05, 09:04 AM
This is sort of a side-track, but we got into a talk about this on another board. How far can belief be suspended? My reply was to take "suspension" a little more literally than most.

I see a bucket being held up by a string, or cord, or chain. The cord can be thick or thin, and it can be made of steel or rice noodles.

The Bucket of Disbelief holds the impossibilities. The Cord of Suspension is made of everything that keeps those impossibilities from crashing down.

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country had some of the biggest plot holes and blunders of any Trek movie. It didn't have a bucket, it had a wading pool. But, it also had a 1 inch, steel chain to suspend it all, so most people overlooked the silly bits.

As long as the story has a strong enough cord, it can keep huge amounts of disbelief suspended.

The last really eye-rolling "Oh, come on" thing I remember was in the previews for The Fast and the Furious 6, when it showed several street racer type cars with harpoons fired into the wings of a heavy lift jet, presumably to keep it from getting too far off the runway.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-05, 09:53 AM
Tog and Noclevername put it especially well, but I like a lot of the posts here.

There have been times when I've disliked a film because I couldn't believe in it, and people have said, "Ah, come on, you have to suspend your disbelief!" And I've replied, "It is the duty of the writers to seduce me into suspending my disbelief!"

It's the difference between, "That would never happen!" and "That would never happen but wouldn't it be great if it did?"

schlaugh
2013-Dec-05, 12:17 PM
The last really eye-rolling "Oh, come on" thing I remember was in the previews for The Fast and the Furious 6, when it showed several street racer type cars with harpoons fired into the wings of a heavy lift jet, presumably to keep it from getting too far off the runway.

Ah, a new Mythbusters episode! :clap:

jokergirl
2013-Dec-05, 12:47 PM
It's the difference between, "That would never happen!" and "That would never happen but wouldn't it be great if it did?"

Or "That wouldn't happen like this but I don't care because it's AWESOME!"

Rule of cool always applies.

;)

Tog
2013-Dec-05, 01:31 PM
Ah, a new Mythbusters episode! :clap:
That was my exact response when I saw it. As long as they keep making movies like this, Mythbusters will go forever.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-05, 01:35 PM
And I've replied, "It is the duty of the writers to seduce me into suspending my disbelief!"



As you can see below, I like that line. I hope to make it an internet meme someday.

I am even tempted go back onto TV Tropes (after a non-amicable parting) and immortalize it on electrons.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-05, 02:20 PM
As you can see below, I like that line. I hope to make it an internet meme someday.

I am even tempted go back onto TV Tropes (after a non-amicable parting) and immortalize it on electrons.

Tips hat. "Thank you sir!"

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-05, 02:47 PM
As long as the story has a strong enough cord, it can keep huge amounts of disbelief suspended.
I like that analogy.
But; I have other factors too.
One (naturally) is production allowances (budgetary and/or movie technology). It also includes known science of the time.

The other is hard to describe, but has factors like intended meaning, audience, etc.
For example; "Space Camp" probably has some of the biggest holes ever made. But; it can be enjoyable if you're in the right mood.
(I've always wanted to see the sequel "Space Camp: the tribunal")

Gillianren
2013-Dec-05, 05:08 PM
Rule of cool always applies.

But what's cool for one person is unbelievably dumb for another.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-05, 05:25 PM
But what's cool for one person is unbelievably dumb for another.
Yep; got into one of those exchanges here not too long ago.

Moose
2013-Dec-05, 06:30 PM
But what's cool for one person is unbelievably dumb for another.


Yep; got into one of those exchanges here not too long ago.

That's why you all should switch to my standards and preferences (then elect me King of Everything). Trust me, it'll be so much easier that way.

Gillianren
2013-Dec-05, 07:03 PM
Only if you acquire a squirrel companion.

DonM435
2013-Dec-05, 07:30 PM
Tog and Noclevername put it especially well, but I like a lot of the posts here.

There have been times when I've disliked a film because I couldn't believe in it, and people have said, "Ah, come on, you have to suspend your disbelief!" And I've replied, "It is the duty of the writers to seduce me into suspending my disbelief!"

It's the difference between, "That would never happen!" and "That would never happen but wouldn't it be great if it did?"

You should just make it a point to wear your belief suspenders when you go to the movies.

Swift
2013-Dec-05, 07:57 PM
That's why you all should switch to my standards and preferences (then elect me King of Everything). Trust me, it'll be so much easier that way.
I, for one, welcome our new Moose overlord. http://smileyshack.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/sbowing_100-106.gif


Only if you acquire a squirrel companion.
You have to type that with a fake russian accent. http://cdn.veggieboards.com/5/56/50x50px-ZC-5613bd49_RockyBullwinkleBorisNatasha.jpeg

Tog
2013-Dec-05, 08:03 PM
You have to type that with a fake russian accent. http://cdn.veggieboards.com/5/56/50x50px-ZC-5613bd49_RockyBullwinkleBorisNatasha.jpeg
I have enough trouble typing with my fingers.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-05, 08:06 PM
Only eef you ackvire skvirrel companion, nya ha ha!

Moose
2013-Dec-05, 08:34 PM
Only if you acquire a squirrel companion.

How about two cats who are both squirrely by turns?

jokergirl
2013-Dec-05, 09:02 PM
But what's cool for one person is unbelievably dumb for another.

And that's completely OK in my books. I find a lot of things cool that others find silly, and vice versa.
And when all is said and done, there's always room for guilty pleasures.

;)

SphinxCore
2013-Dec-06, 09:42 PM
Any time I go out to see a movie (which is seldom) I suspend my disbelief at the prices of the ticket, the popcorn, and the drink.

The rest of it is pretty easy to either laugh at or enjoy after that.

Van Rijn
2013-Dec-07, 07:29 AM
However, I have limits. If a story is supposed to be set in the real world and a plot point hinges on a mistaken or false idea or well-debunked urban legend, especially one easily researched, I usually am disappointed. If the story (for example) contains unrepentant action-hero physics or other played-out tropes and yet does not at least hang a lampshade on that fact and wink at the audience, I cringe a little.

One that will really kill it for me is if they use the hoary "people use only ten percent of their brains" nonsense to explain fantastic instant superpowers. I would like to see that one with a lampshade. Say, if someone tries to use that as an explanation for superpowers, have another character immediately shoot it down.

Van Rijn
2013-Dec-07, 08:32 AM
Usually for me it isn't just noticing something technically wrong that breaks my suspension of disbelief, but when they do something that is both technically wrong, and for various reasons make me angry with what they were doing, so I'm thinking more about the faults than the plot, and am more likely to notice other faults later in the show.

I'll give them a lot of rope for things that are necessary for the plot. But I often see movies or shows where there's very basic wrong stuff that has no bearing on the story, or where the story could be substantially improved if they got it right, but it's obvious the producers just don't care. Usually all they'd need for a technical expert is a college undergrad that would happily do the work for a couple of pizzas and their name somewhere in the mile-long credits.

I get especially annoyed if they get stuff wrong AND they obviously have an agenda. There's a lot of stuff that reminds me of the arguments in our ATM and CT sections.

Oh, and that brings up context: I'm going to be a lot more annoyed if I had to pay for the privilege of watching somebody's ATM or CT fantasy than if it's something from a random cable channel.

Likewise, if something gets glowing reviews and nobody mentions any faults, I'm going to expect more than for something that gets poor reviews, or where most of the faults have already been pointed out.

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-07, 03:30 PM
Excessive, ridiculous CGI, just for its own sake, would spoil many recent movies for me. If I went to the movies.

Buttercup
2013-Dec-07, 03:33 PM
Excessive, ridiculous CGI, just for its own sake, would spoil many recent movies for me. If I went to the movies.

Agreed.

The tornado in "The Wizard of Oz," long before CGI and created with a black sock, is a lot more convincing and frightening than CGI tornadoes; imo.

Clive Barker's remake of "Hellraiser" will not depend much on CGI, according to the man himself.

captain swoop
2013-Dec-07, 05:03 PM
I don't like when they put something in a film, flag it and then ignore it anyway.

Example, In Die Hard great play is made of Bruce Willis having no shoes and the glass partitions being shot out to cut his feet.

Ten minutes later after some mild inconvenience he is running around on his cut feet without a problem.

Buttercup
2013-Dec-07, 05:19 PM
Or all the hyper-nonstop action of Dan Brown's "Angels & Demons" film. :rolleyes: The characters running or driving like crazy all over Rome and the Vatican; they'd be wiped out from exhaustion in 4 hours' time ... not to mention no eat, drink, bathroom breaks. And they obtain their goal! Utterly ridiculous. :hand:

Noclevername
2013-Dec-07, 05:29 PM
The female lead runs through fire, smoke, and explosions, and her makeup is still perfect. Maybe a few artful smudges on the cheekbones.

Solfe
2013-Dec-07, 06:05 PM
CGI has its limits. I find it interesting that sometimes a film or TV show can use bad CGI to get the point across. There has to be a technical limitation to prevent some other method of conveying the idea, and the story has to be really good.

I hated Babylon 5, but even the highly variable CGI effects were use to good effect. The Last Starfighter also had the same issue, CGI before its time. I still love that one. (Random trivia, TNG was still using physical models for ships right to the end. Usually they did ok.)

My personal "suspension" collapses when characters switch bodies or get turned into children. Farscape did a good version of this, but I still wanted to hate it. I was one of my least favorite episodes. There was a pair of TNG episodes where some of the crew turned into children and another episode where Picard leads a bunch of children. I rather liked both episodes, especially the one with singing kids saving the day. One was a lot more tongue and cheek than the other.

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-07, 06:42 PM
The Last Starfighter also had the same issue, CGI before its time. I still love that one.
Me too.

One of the worst deal-breakers for me is the "make it didn't happen" ending, in which the whole thing is just blotted from time, dead characters are resurrected, and all is back like it was after disaster. Although, somehow, that happens a lot in Doctor Who and doesn't bother me as much.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-07, 06:43 PM
I hated Babylon 5, but even the highly variable CGI effects were use to good effect. The Last Starfighter also had the same issue, CGI before its time. I still love that one.

Both those examples knew how and when not to mix CG and live actors in the same shot. That made it much less jarring than certain other films and shows (Yeah, I'm talking to you, Lucas!) They also limited the CG effects to things that had no real-life examples to compare to, like space fighters and non-humanoid aliens.

Moose
2013-Dec-07, 07:22 PM
Both those examples knew how and when not to mix CG and live actors in the same shot. That made it much less jarring than certain other films and shows (Yeah, I'm talking to you, Lucas!) They also limited the CG effects to things that had no real-life examples to compare to, like space fighters and non-humanoid aliens.

B5 also got much better at it with experience. Season one's CG effects were pretty bad. By season two, they more or less knew what worked and what didn't.

Chuck
2013-Dec-07, 08:09 PM
Television shows that have an "It's a Wonderful Life" plot episode. Is that really necessary? Don't they have writers who can think up plots?

Noclevername
2013-Dec-07, 10:22 PM
Me too.

One of the worst deal-breakers for me is the "make it didn't happen" ending, in which the whole thing is just blotted from time, dead characters are resurrected, and all is back like it was after disaster. Although, somehow, that happens a lot in Doctor Who and doesn't bother me as much.

The only time I ever saw that done well was a few episodes of Justice League, when fixing the timestream was the whole point of the plot; and they hang a whole chandelier on it at the end.

Chuck
2013-Dec-07, 10:41 PM
I think Next (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0435705) gets away with it too.

DonM435
2013-Dec-08, 02:18 AM
Me too.

One of the worst deal-breakers for me is the "make it didn't happen" ending, in which the whole thing is just blotted from time, dead characters are resurrected, and all is back like it was after disaster. Although, somehow, that happens a lot in Doctor Who and doesn't bother me as much.

Years ago I had to take my teen-aged son to see a film called Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey. Just about the whole film involves chronological one-upmanship wherein the obnoxious good guys and the evil bad guys repeatedly go back in time and undo things -- or at least claim to have done so.

Van Rijn
2013-Dec-09, 07:21 AM
Me too.

One of the worst deal-breakers for me is the "make it didn't happen" ending, in which the whole thing is just blotted from time, dead characters are resurrected, and all is back like it was after disaster. Although, somehow, that happens a lot in Doctor Who and doesn't bother me as much.

In Doctor Who I don't mind because (a) it's exactly what it says on the tin - that is, the show is explicitly about a meddling time traveller, (b) it doesn't cause a universal utopia (horrible things still happen), and (c) there is generally a price - often a very big price - involved.

I did get very tired of it in Star Trek, though. Occasionally they established a price (as with Tasha Yar and the Enterprise C) but not often enough. Also, they've made it clear that in Star Trek all possibilities exist (they explicitly referred to the many worlds QM interpretation in at least a couple of TNG episodes). So there are Star Trek universes where Germany won WWII, where the Earth was destroyed, taken over by Borg, etc., there's one where Vulcan was destroyed and so on. When Kirk pulls off some ridiculous scheme and Spock points out how unlikely it was that it could work, it's just that we (as viewers) are seeing a universe branch where it did work, not all the others where it didn't. So it isn't really a big deal if they pull off a scheme, because we know about the other universes where it didn't (incidentally, this makes it easy to explain Q's power - it could just be the ability to switch his point of view between the infinite possible universes).

DonM435
2013-Dec-09, 03:12 PM
Didn't someone once multiply all of Spock's odds estimates, and conclude that their chance of surviving Season One was aproximately one in 6.02 x 10^23, or something like that?

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-09, 03:45 PM
Didn't someone once multiply all of Spock's odds estimates, and conclude that their chance of surviving Season One was aproximately one in 6.02 x 10^23, or something like that?

Was "someone" named Avogadro?

DonM435
2013-Dec-09, 04:08 PM
Was "someone" named Avogadro?

No, not really. I just always use that for any outrageous number. ;) It may have been 9.81 zillion or something close to that.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-09, 06:22 PM
I did get very tired of it in Star Trek, though. Occasionally they established a price (as with Tasha Yar and the Enterprise C) but not often enough.
TOS was rather lax in it, but I think as the series' went on, they improved with the "temporal prime directive".



Also, they've made it clear that in Star Trek all possibilities exist (they explicitly referred to the many worlds QM interpretation in at least a couple of TNG episodes).
They made it clear, but not in individual contexts, so extending it seems like too much mental work for me.


(incidentally, this makes it easy to explain Q's power - it could just be the ability to switch his point of view between the infinite possible universes).
Omnipotence goes right out the window. :whistle:


The one's with the alternate possibilities that bother me are the "mirror" episodes.
If those alternates are so vastly different then how did they spend all those centuries developing the same technologies, in the same locations, with the same characters (apparently all born to the same parents), all happening to end up at the same place, etc. With only a situational background change.

The one TOS did wasn't too bad (probably because it was the first, and there weren't a lot of characters and backgrounds involved). But; DS9 just completely overdid it in my opinion.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-09, 06:32 PM
The first Mirror Universe episode came out when the idea of parallel worlds was not a major part of the public consciousness. It was, as I understand it, a flimsy justification for the actors to play bad guys for a change.

I remember one commentator - Kim Newman, IIRC - pointing out how savvy it all was, but I don't buy that.

Solfe
2013-Dec-09, 10:10 PM
I liked the Enterprise mirror episode. They pulled out all the stops and went so far as to change the title credits. Go big or go home!

Moose
2013-Dec-09, 10:52 PM
I liked the Enterprise mirror episode. They pulled out all the stops and went so far as to change the title credits. Go big or go home!

Heh, I still remember my first time seeing that episode. I tuned in just as the credits started, so it was a total surprise. :)

ToSeek
2013-Dec-09, 11:53 PM
I liked the Enterprise mirror episode. They pulled out all the stops and went so far as to change the title credits. Go big or go home!

Babylon Five did something like that once, too, as I recall.

ToSeek
2013-Dec-09, 11:55 PM
The asteroid chase scene from The Empire Strikes Back is one of my less favorite Star Wars moments. The giant space slug alone doesn't seem very likely and the crew wandering around in what should be at least partial vacuum(the slug still has its mouth open to space) with breathing masks always makes me groan.

I really want to know what the slug lives on. Not much of an ecosystem out there, unless there are star fighter battles in the vicinity every fortnight or so.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-09, 11:59 PM
Babylon Five did something like that once, too, as I recall.

I don't remember that one. I think Stargate had one, though. Fringe used to do it with regularity; the Alternate Universe episodes had their own color scheme, and the flashback episode openings had dated font and references.

Moose
2013-Dec-10, 12:53 AM
Babylon Five did something like that once, too, as I recall.

The season four pseudo-finale? Some totalitarian regime on Earth had a holographic producer creating propaganda to create casus belli?

Moose
2013-Dec-10, 12:56 AM
I really want to know what the slug lives on. Not much of an ecosystem out there, unless there are star fighter battles in the vicinity every fortnight or so.

A _lot_ of Chinese takeout with sides of delivery guys, according to Robot Chicken (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s0MqYcOOjY).

Noclevername
2013-Dec-10, 12:56 AM
The season four pseudo-finale? Some totalitarian regime on Earth had a holographic producer creating propaganda to create casus belli?

It was supposed to be the actual finale since the show had been cancelled, except the suits then un-cancelled it and that's why the war was so short and the last season was so weak, since it was supposed to be about the war.

Noclevername
2013-Dec-10, 01:15 AM
I really want to know what the slug lives on. Not much of an ecosystem out there, unless there are star fighter battles in the vicinity every fortnight or so.

According to the Expanded Universe, it has silicon and metal based biochemistry; it eats asteroid minerals and absorbs solar magnetic fields, but if a more concentrated power source is available it will take it.

Solfe
2013-Dec-10, 01:30 AM
Anything Jason O'Mara is in... Somehow the networks have it in for that guy. I simply can't get into the show until it is canceled. Once I get that notice, I know I can sit back and enjoy whatever it is.

He was really interesting in Grey's Anatomy; he had a tumor and didn't know it. He decided to pet a bear cub. A lot of people were mauled, but not him. His behavior lead to the diagnosis. It seemed pretty believable.

Grey's Anatomy jumped the shark tank with a plane crash a couple of seasons ago. One of the characters was somehow trapped under the large jet she was riding in and bled out from her injuries. Then she was eaten by wolves. On top of all this, they were lost in a forest just outside of Seattle... for a week. I know Seattle is nothing like NYC, but how does one lose an airliner for a week?

Gillianren
2013-Dec-10, 01:35 AM
I'm really trying to picture anywhere within about four hundred miles of Seattle where you could lose an airliner for a week, and I'm thinking . . . I guess the Pacific Ocean?

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-10, 02:26 PM
I liked the Enterprise mirror episode. They pulled out all the stops and went so far as to change the title credits. Go big or go home!
I consider that one more of an alternate timeline than a mirror episode since the Vulcan ship takeover in the beginning seems to have started it and that there were not any good and bad of the same character co-existing.

I have no idea what makes "Tholian Web" a mirror episode either. Even if you consider this ENT episode a mirror, there was nothing mirror in the TOS episode. Just an unexplained reason for crossing the interdimensional rift, and no reference to what that other dimension is like.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-10, 02:31 PM
Just saw the mirror episode of Star Trek TOS, coincidentally. Quite fun.

DonM435
2013-Dec-10, 02:38 PM
Just saw the mirror episode of Star Trek TOS, coincidentally. Quite fun.

Doesn't McCoy say something like "This is my table -- there's the acid I spilled last year!" This suggests that his evil counterpart is just as clumsy as he.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-10, 02:46 PM
Doesn't McCoy say something like "This is my table -- there's the acid I spilled last year!" This suggests that his evil counterpart is just as clumsy as he.

Yes. I wonder what the hippocratic oath is there - first do some harm?

Noclevername
2013-Dec-10, 02:50 PM
So it isn't really a big deal if they pull off a scheme, because we know about the other universes where it didn't

It's a big deal if you live in the universe where they don't.

Solfe
2013-Dec-10, 02:52 PM
Yes. I wonder what the hippocratic oath is there - first do some harm?

Withhold surgery until there is harm?

Noclevername
2013-Dec-10, 03:50 PM
Yes. I wonder what the hippocratic oath is there - first do some harm?

Patch up the slaves so we can get more work out of them, patch up the torture victims so we can get more fun out of them, patch up the Boss so we don't become more fun for him.

redshifter
2013-Dec-10, 08:09 PM
I'm really trying to picture anywhere within about four hundred miles of Seattle where you could lose an airliner for a week, and I'm thinking . . . I guess the Pacific Ocean?

Maybe Mel's Hole? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel%27s_Hole

Solfe
2013-Dec-10, 08:27 PM
TV Geography is usually bad. I blame that for missing jetliners.

X-Files had a really bad flub for Buffalo. They came here and shot every scene as realistically as possible, mentioning local towns, hospitals, clinics, and actually drove around to each in a sensible fashion. The interior of houses were very distinctly "Buffalo", because they gave the actual address of the house they filmed in. No 555-5555 junk. You could actually do everything the characters did.

And then they inserted "China Town". The nearest China Town is in Toronto. Oops. Belief Failure!

redshifter
2013-Dec-10, 10:01 PM
I always get a kick out of the geographical errors in Harry and the Hendersons movie. I'd imagine a lot of movies can get easily picked apart by folks who know the area where a movie was filmed--or pretended to be filmed.

jokergirl
2013-Dec-11, 09:07 AM
Speaking of Hollywood geography - Whenever they insert something central European in Hollywood movies, it will be the "tourist bus" version of whichever place they are in. James Bond taking a horse-drawn carriage as if it were a taxi. Or the beautiful alpine lake in middle Germany in The A-team :lol:.
It doesn't so much bug me for geography - shortcuts must be taken - as that it's so obviously "inserted by the tourist board".

There was a scene in one movie where I couldn't suspend my disbelief because of insider information. I don't remember which exact movie (one of the Bourne series maybe?) where a character, after a roof chase over the old town of Salzburg, ends up in the river and escapes.
Having lived there for several years, I don't believe anybody who falls in that river will escape. It's icy cold, even in summer. You can't feel your toes after a second if you just dip them in there.
Maybe if you're very used to taking dips in icy lakes (and can deal with the shock response)?

Tog
2013-Dec-11, 09:30 AM
An article I read when Xena was still on the air said that they had to have at least one "Board of Tourism" shot of the New Zealand countryside in every episode. That phrase comes back to me every time I see one of those shots in anything.

There have been a few movies and several TV shows filmed in Salt Lake and the surrounding area. Whenever I see a place in a show that I know from the "real world" it pulls me out, unless it's part of the movie.

Fletch had a scene set in Provo, Utah, and was filmed there. I know this because I recognize Mount Timpanogos in the background. It's got a pretty unmistakable profile.

On the other hand, The Sandlot was set in California in the 60's and was filmed around town. I knew three people who were extras, and spotted two of them on screen. The drugstore was near my house at the time, and the pool is beside a trail where I walk my dogs.

Three O'clock High was filmed in a high school in Ogden that I drive past on the way to the place I call the "Body-Dump Park," so it's strange to see it on TV from time to time. "What happened at the... oh, It's the movie again."

We even had a ninja movie once. I thought I recognized the hillsides, but it was the police cars With "Salt Lake Police" left on the doors that tipped me off they weren't really in Los Angeles.

Solfe
2013-Dec-11, 11:44 AM
I love the bit in Austin Powers where Austin points out how Southern California looks exactly like England.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-11, 04:40 PM
Believe it or not, we've had a lot of films shot in Cleveland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_shot_in_Cleveland,_Ohio). But; they go out of their way to make it look like somewhere else.

And, when they finally make a movie that is supposed to portray Cleveland, they shoot most of it in Milwaukee (Major League).

Gillianren
2013-Dec-11, 04:59 PM
Conversely, as someone who grew up in LA, I recognize a lot of places that aren't supposed to be Los Angeles but are. The house I grew up in fills in for Wisconsin in Anywhere but Here, actually. One of the reasons I don't watch Bones (there are a lot of them) is that all the establishing shots of the place where she works are, in fact, the Los Angeles County Museum of Natural History. The rose garden in it appears in probably hundreds of thousands of people's wedding photos, since it's a local tradition to go take pictures there if your actual venue isn't the most scenic. And just inside that facade is this beautiful statue that I've seen in I'm not sure how many films and movies--it was supposedly in Chicago on ER once, and they covered it up with sciency stuff and just used the room in the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man. (It's where he was bitten by the spider.) I saw it fill in for the Metropolitan Museum of Art in a bad, made-for-TV production of From the Mixed-Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler; they draped something over the coelacanth case to try to convince you that, no, really, art museum.

Actually, years ago, my family was watching a Siskel and Ebert special on the subject, and they were grumbling over some mountains that appeared in a shot that was supposedly Chicago. And my whole family cheered, because it was a park something like a mile and a half south of us. My family is so good at this that, when my sister and brother-in-law are watching something and my sister says, "Hey!" his response is, "Did they film that at your mom's house?" And it isn't usually quite that obvious to us, but I did see my old dry cleaner's in a tire commercial once.

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-11, 07:37 PM
Conversely, as someone who grew up in LA, I recognize a lot of places that aren't supposed to be Los Angeles but are.

I think the Griffith Park Observatory has been in pretty much every country in the world. And probably on some other worlds as well.

A couple of years ago my wife and I watched a movie about the Battle of the Bulge. Did you know there are mountains and deserts in the forests of Belgium? The desert was actually the Yakima Firing Range in central Washington State. The mountains were likely California.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-11, 07:56 PM
Conversely, as someone who grew up in LA, I recognize a lot of places that aren't supposed to be Los Angeles but are.
I can understand that of LA, but the difference is that when LA is to be depicted, it IS LA.
I wonder if there are any (more well known) movies shot somewhere other than LA that try to depict LA (other than interiors).

Swift
2013-Dec-11, 08:07 PM
I'm really trying to picture anywhere within about four hundred miles of Seattle where you could lose an airliner for a week, and I'm thinking . . . I guess the Pacific Ocean?
The Boeing plant?

:rimshot:

Gillianren
2013-Dec-11, 08:20 PM
I can understand that of LA, but the difference is that when LA is to be depicted, it IS LA.
I wonder if there are any (more well known) movies shot somewhere other than LA that try to depict LA (other than interiors).

Hmmm. I'll have to think about that. Then again, since the studios are still mostly based there, anything that's major and filmed in the US generally finds it cheaper to film in LA than not, which is why my mom's house was Wisconsin. Cheaper to go to Altadena than Wisconsin. Especially for a small percentage of the movie. A whole production might get a tax break for filming elsewhere, but not three scenes.

captain swoop
2013-Dec-11, 08:51 PM
Anyone driving in London will go past all the famous landmarks even though some of them are miles apart and with the traffic in the center it would take them all day.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-11, 08:56 PM
Hmmm. I'll have to think about that. Then again, since the studios are still mostly based there, anything that's major and filmed in the US generally finds it cheaper to film in LA than not.
If you find any, let me know. That's why I think "Major League" being filmed in Milwaukee was funny.

NEOWatcher
2013-Dec-11, 09:02 PM
Anyone driving in London will go past all the famous landmarks even though some of them are miles apart and with the traffic in the center it would take them all day.
Why not? If Sandra Bullock can quickly travel between the Shuttle, ISS, Hubble, and Taitong, then a quick jaunt through London should be easy.

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-12, 12:22 AM
The Boeing plant?

:rimshot:

You know, you just about could lose one in the Everett plant. Sort of a forest and trees effect.

jokergirl
2013-Dec-12, 07:57 AM
Anyone driving in London will go past all the famous landmarks even though some of them are miles apart and with the traffic in the center it would take them all day.

Exactly! Board of Tourism shots. :P

Solfe
2013-Dec-12, 01:14 PM
Now wouldn't it be funny to spell out a plot that requires all of the characters to go from point A to point B to point C yet none of them can even make it to point A? They can see it, they just can't get there.

ToSeek
2013-Dec-12, 10:49 PM
I don't remember that one. I think Stargate had one, though. Fringe used to do it with regularity; the Alternate Universe episodes had their own color scheme, and the flashback episode openings had dated font and references.

Babylon Five did a PsiCorps variant once, though I can't find that version online anywhere.

pzkpfw
2013-Dec-12, 11:10 PM
An article I read when Xena was still on the air said that they had to have at least one "Board of Tourism" shot of the New Zealand countryside in every episode. ...

The very start of Once were warriors makes a great play on that. (Which I won't describe as it removes the impact for anyone viewing for the first time).


Mt Doom (LotR) was Mt Ruapehu, which in the mid 90's I lived near and for a time saw smoking. (Towns down-wind were getting ash on them). Didn't help the suspension of disbelief. (Nor did recognising local bit-part/T.V. actors as extras.)

starcanuck64
2013-Dec-12, 11:50 PM
The very start of Once were warriors makes a great play on that. (Which I won't describe as it removes the impact for anyone viewing for the first time).


Mt Doom (LotR) was Mt Ruapehu, which in the mid 90's I lived near and for a time saw smoking. (Towns down-wind were getting ash on them). Didn't help the suspension of disbelief. (Nor did recognising local bit-part/T.V. actors as extras.)

My stepdad is from the small Idaho town where Dante's Inferno was filmed, my stepsister is supposed to be in the movie somewhere but I've never been able to find her.

You need to suspend your disbelief quite a bit for that movie, like with the driving on lava scenes.

Tog
2013-Dec-13, 09:56 AM
I can understand that of LA, but the difference is that when LA is to be depicted, it IS LA.
I wonder if there are any (more well known) movies shot somewhere other than LA that try to depict LA (other than interiors).

While not "well known", here's a bit of trivia from Revenge of the Ninja. The film was set in an unnamed city in California (shown by superimposing "Six Years Later" over a flagpole with the US flag above the state flag for CA.)

The film was originally to be shot in Los Angeles, but the necessary permits, police protection, fire marshals and myriad logistics fees would be taking up a bigger and bigger part of the film's budget. The Utah Film Commission was trying to get Cannon Films to start producing films in their state and a representative promised no permits, location fees or union deals as well as lower salaries for local crews. The commission's assurances persuaded Cannon to switch filming to Salt Late City.
This was the one I mentioned above with "Salt Lake Police" prominent on the cars at the end.

The Sandlot was set in "Southern California" and might have been 1962 Los Angeles, but was filmed in Salt Lake and the surrounding area. It probably qualifies as a well known film, as it's held a cult following for 20 years. I'm just not sure if it's supposed to be set in L.A. or some other, smaller city/town. It's been a while since I've caught the beginning and I'm always distracted by the kid pitching the ball on the last day of school. He used to come into the store on a regular basis.

Gillianren
2013-Dec-13, 05:35 PM
Someone yesterday told me that "the vast majority" of movies these days are filmed in Vancouver, yet I can't think of a single time when Vancouver stood in for LA. There's an episode of The X-Files set there when they were still filming up north, and even they just went to LA. So far as I know, my cousin's kid has never filmed in Vancouver, and he filmed in Utah some years ago when he starred in the not-at-all-good Unaccompanied Minors. Inasmuch as anyone really "starred" in that.

schlaugh
2013-Dec-13, 05:43 PM
Metropolitan Atlanta has been used quite a lot lately for filming.

Which brings me to a funny story.

On a major route between my community and the I-285 perimeter I saw a Costco sign on a building which once housed a BJ's. Yaaa! Both are warehouse operations so I thought maybe the we were getting a new Costco. That location would have been very convenient for my homeward commute.

A couple of months later the sign is gone. Huh? What? No help from the Costco web site.

Well, it turns out the building was standing in as a Costco for the (apparently mediocre) Ben Stiller film The Watch.

Dagnabbit!

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-13, 05:59 PM
Never having heard of Costco or BJ, and not knowing why a warehouse operation would be a good thing to have on a homeward commute, the funny story whooshed over my head.

Tog
2013-Dec-13, 06:07 PM
You don't have warehouse stores there? Where do you go to get a case of 288 rolls of toilet paper, or 48 cans of tuna in a single, convenient box, or a 35 pound drum of gummy worms?

Costco is that sort of place. You don't buy single items, you buy for teams or giant families. Prices per unit are cheaper than regular stores, but you have to buy absurd quantities. They are great for businesses and average Utah families. The stores themselves are literally warehouses.

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-13, 06:26 PM
We have places like Costco (e.g. Macro) but I didn't get the equivalence from the description. I looked it up on Wiki and understood the story.

Gillianren
2013-Dec-13, 07:01 PM
You don't have warehouse stores there? Where do you go to get a case of 288 rolls of toilet paper, or 48 cans of tuna in a single, convenient box, or a 35 pound drum of gummy worms?

Costco is that sort of place. You don't buy single items, you buy for teams or giant families. Prices per unit are cheaper than regular stores, but you have to buy absurd quantities. They are great for businesses and average Utah families. The stores themselves are literally warehouses.

Hey, there are plenty of things we buy at Costco (though their DVD selection has sadly been slipping in recent years). For one thing, baby wipes--the Kirkland brand are, according to people I know who have actually tried a wide variety, the best baby wipes on the market, and they come in quantities which mean you only have to buy baby wipes every three months or so. Which, for people with a baby, is a godsend. Their diapers are pretty good, but we don't use disposables and so it doesn't come up. (We did get disposables to use when we go out, and we were given a box as a baby shower present--that's something like 256 diapers--but if we're only out for a day and it isn't so hot that the diapers begin to smell, we still use cloth ones even then.) There are also plenty of things we get just because we don't want to think about buying them very often, though it does leave us a bit stumped when we finally run out.

But the best thing about Costco is the Jack-in-the-Box commercial set there that aired a few years ago. (Okay, the store Jack was in never got a name, but I automatically thought of Costco.) We see him rolling an enormous plastic tub of pretzels along. And then he expresses delight at a plasma TV two-pack, and Lucy-from-Twin Peaks tells him in her chirpy little voice that it also comes with twenty pounds of jerky. What this had to do with fast food hamburgers, I don't know, but Jack-in-the-Box commercials are only tangentially related to the product they offer.

Tog
2013-Dec-13, 07:27 PM
I'm not really knocking them. In a town like Salt Lake, which tends to have large families, they are thriving. As a single guy, they weren't much use to me because I didn't go through stuff fast enough to justify the membership costs. I did go in there once when a place I worked for sent me shopping and picked up a couple of neat books.

TJMac
2013-Dec-14, 02:39 PM
Now wouldn't it be funny to spell out a plot that requires all of the characters to go from point A to point B to point C yet none of them can even make it to point A? They can see it, they just can't get there.

I almost hate admitting I saw it, but I am immediately reminded of European Vacation, with Chevy Chase, as the family is trapped in a traffic circle (around Big Ben I if I remember right) and he cannot change lanes because of traffic. So they just keep circling....

TJ

Solfe
2013-Dec-14, 05:41 PM
I almost hate admitting I saw it, but I am immediately reminded of European Vacation, with Chevy Chase, as the family is trapped in a traffic circle (around Big Ben I if I remember right) and he cannot change lanes because of traffic. So they just keep circling....TJMy wife can do a pretty good impression of Chevy Chase from that scene. The slightly panicked stammering: "Look kids! Big Ben and Parliament!"

starcanuck64
2013-Dec-14, 10:18 PM
I almost hate admitting I saw it, but I am immediately reminded of European Vacation, with Chevy Chase, as the family is trapped in a traffic circle (around Big Ben I if I remember right) and he cannot change lanes because of traffic. So they just keep circling....

TJ

The Bavarian folk dance scene wasn't too bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO93OT3P30g

TJMac
2013-Dec-15, 06:00 PM
Pleased to know I'm not the only one who laughed all thru that movie.

TJ

pzkpfw
2013-Dec-16, 12:39 AM
Sorry, a bit off topic, but detail today to go with an earlier comment: http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/9522695/Avatar-sequels-to-be-made-in-NZ

One of the conditions for Avatar sequels to be made in N.Z. ...


... and a featurette on New Zealand being included in DVDs and Blu Rays

Noclevername
2013-Dec-17, 09:26 AM
As you can see below, I like that line. I hope to make it an internet meme someday.

I am even tempted go back onto TV Tropes (after a non-amicable parting) and immortalize it on electrons.

Well, it appears I'm still not welcome in certain quarters of TVT:mad:, I'll just put the phrase other online places in hope that it catches on.