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Nicolas
2004-Dec-07, 11:15 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/12/02/russia.space.ap/index.html


Also Tuesday, Yuri Semyonov, head of the RKK Energia company, which builds the Soyuz, said RKK planned to send a new manned shuttle to the station between 2010 and 2012, depending on funding.

What do they mean, demothballing what's left of the 2 finished Burans (and LV Energia's) after the roof collapse, finishing the third and improved Buran, developing a new shuttle for the LV Energia, developing the proposed shuttle that would be launched directly from teh An-225, or a completely new program? The Energia website sas nothing about the fact. Or do they mean the next generation Soyuz? ("shuttle" does not necessarily mean "reusable, however it is normally used with that meaning, because "shuttling" only once up and down aint really "shuttling"...

BTW are the SRB's and the main stage of the LV Energia all reusable? The SRB's probably will be, I thought the main stage (fuel tank with engines) too, at least here on the univ. there has been a research to make the Ariane5 main stage reusable, I thought with Energia as example...

Nicolas
2004-Dec-07, 11:26 PM
http://www.floridatoday.com/news/space/stories/2004a/021704russiacraft.htm

GOT IT!!!

A follow-up for the Soyuz capsule (don't know if it will have a new rocket with it too, or another existing one than the Soyuz orcket used now, like the (maybe too heavy) LV Energia.)

The new soyuz will carry up to 6 persons and be reusable. I haven't heard about a cargo bay, so prbably the craft won't be a Space Shuttle concept, but more a passenger vehicle (most probably with limited cargo possibilities). That sounds like a good choice to me, not going on the truck design of the shuttle again. (10 people AND lots of cargo, a bit over the top maybe?...)

Maksutov
2004-Dec-07, 11:36 PM
[edit]
BTW are the SRB's and the main stage of the LV Energia all reusable? The SRB's probably will be, I thought the main stage (fuel tank with engines) too, at least here on the univ. there has been a research to make the Ariane5 main stage reusable, I thought with Energia as example...
No SRBs involved. The strap-ons were/are liquid fueled. The overall plan for the booster assembly was for nine reuses for a total of ten launches.

Nicolas
2004-Dec-07, 11:40 PM
Good point. Using SRB for a booster that ain't using solid fuel misses the point of the acronym.

So you're saying that the 10 times reusability (or 9, how you count it) counts for both the boosters and the core stage of the LV energia?

Launch window
2004-Dec-08, 02:01 AM
Some news & debate on the net on this one


There has been much talk on the web about this spacecraft, I have gotten some quick info of other postings and space forums

QUOTE

It could be very good, it is a space craft with a 6 manned crew (2 pilots, 4 passengers) and a Launch mass of 14.5 tons. The craft might be a very nice and cost effective reusable re-entry vehicle something the shuttle always wanted to be but never actually was. This could become Russia's number one space ship and like the Soyuz, it has a rocket to pull the spaceship away from the launch vehicle in an emergency. What many whated to see was some agency develop a new space plane or a space craft with the wings that are retractable or a cheap craft that could go on a mission to the planets.
http://www2.arnes.si/~ssdszaj1/vesolje/navtika/novice/2004/02/kliper.jpg
Energia, the developer of the Soyuz spacecraft, has been working on a brand-new vehicle for some months and it looks like they have been doing a very good job. The giant Russian Energia rockets were great and today the Russian president has been putting more money into Russian Nuclear technology and its likely to put more cash into space before 2007 so Russia can celebrate the SputnikI launch of 57.
http://www.federalspace.ru/PictFiles/P_rkk_15.jpg
This craft might be a great help to Russia's space flights and has an Internal available volume 20 cubic meters. Russia had already NASA to take part in the Klipper project but did not receive an official answer, now it has built the craft on its own however the European Space Agency showed interest in the offer and might buy into it if Europe desires manned flights. The Russian craft kliper can be used for inplanetary flights, but maybe the Russians really only mean to the moon?
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/k/kliper04.jpg
The Russian spacecraft is a great design and consisted of three major modules. Klipper will be capable of flights to the ISS and interplanetary missions. Maybe the entry vehicle (CEV) would be used for LEO flights and as a entry vehicle for the Moon or Russian Mars crews when they get back. Scientists expect that the Kliper would be launched by the Russian Angara booster, an existing pad at Baikonur would be modified initially but it is not really known where the launch site will be. A Russian Kliper may launch from a pad at Plesetsk, or the new Soyuz pad at Kourou at a French facility in South America it could be modified eventually to accommodate the Onega.
http://www.federalspace.ru/PictFiles/p_rkk_18.jpg
The Russians seem to be one of the top players in making headway on developing the next-generation spacecraft. At the current rate of development, the United States will not have an alternative to the shuttle for another 10 to 15 years, if then. The Russians have had many good space plans Russians have what appears to be a sound, practical design for a vehicle . Now the Russians have been slogging away, in spite of being broke, building upon success after success. The craft has a maximum diameter of 3.06 meters and a Landing mass of 9.5 to 10.0 tonnes.
http://www.federalspace.ru/PictFiles/P_rkk_19.jpg
If the Europeans buy into this craft the Russians will no longer be broke and full of cash for their space programme, and having a European manned access to the station is really the only thing missing from European capabilities at the moment. An interplanetary CEV would be a fantastic thing, and this Russian design might be great. The Kliper will land with the help of a three main uncontrolled parachutes and several solid-propellant engines, which would be fired shortly before the touchdown. Space writers have noted that while in orbit, the Kliper would be capable of delivering crew and cargo to the space station or carrying two pilots and four passengers, including tourists, on an autonomous flight.
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/k/klipercu.jpg
This Russian design has been quiet smart and Investment in the future is the key to choosing what the future of Space will be.


NASA plans on having the shuttle back soon. People are saying that the shuttle might again become a major problem for NASA. There have also been remarks that NASA will lose valuable learning experiences allowing other nations to catch up and possibly surpass them all the while the private sector will continue to embarass NASA by doing it cheaper, faster, better. Some people say shuttle really needs to be retired - but as NASA have missed the opportunity to develop something else in the two years the shuttle has been grounded (and of course pumped a huge amount of their budget into it rather than a 'replacement)Now it has been reported that nearly two years after Columbia shattered in the sky, NASA still has no way of repairing the kind of holes that could doom another shuttle, space agency officials acknowledged Monday in their latest status report on the return-to-flight effort.The development of patches for the shuttle wings and other vulnerable locations is proving far more difficult than imagined just months ago and, along with devising a way for astronauts to inspect their spaceship in orbit, represents "one of the most challenging and extensive return-to-flight tasks," the 268-page report said. The Space shuttle was originally supposed to push us out further into Space, it was to be cost effective, do wonderful groundbreaking science and fly every two weeks. It already had serious safety questions, it began costing over $450 million per launch, not enough science was done and it only went up about four or five times a year.

As the shuttle begins its return to Space there are people who have questions about the current space programe. NASA still has to get its management right, get the budget books in order and answer those questions of saftey. Some people like myself hoped that the Shuttle would be gone and NASA would have come up with a new and fantastic functional space craft.The shuttle will be kept very busy after its return to flight, there is much science to catch up on and experiments to do. There is also the current problem with Hubble and the possibility that shuttle will be used to do this work. The shuttle will also need many other trips and will be required for the ISS, estimates are that about 25 ( minimum ) shuttle flights will be needed for NASA to finish its work and the shuttle can then bow out of service by 2010. Some think that 25 flights and pushing the shuttle until 2010 could be quiet dangerous and risk lives. Some top scientists and astronauts have wrote ideas and talked on how the ISS station could have provided safe haven for the Columbia crew while everybody scrambled to launch a second orbiter to bring them all home safely. Some think that this plan of an ISS safe haven cold be very important for the shuttle return. The astronaut Buzz Aldrin who has been helping commercialisation, privatization of space-flight, push space-tourism, written much material and made very important comments on NASA has also had some good views on the current situation. Buzz has had many fantastic insights into the future of Space, the Apollo 11 moonwalker Buzz Aldrin has been calling for rejuvenated space efforts, steeped in market economics. Aldrin had said how the shuttle was expected to be a lot more robust but Buzz Aldrin told the reality of the shuttle in flight is that it is "not robust" on launch and "hazardous". Buzz, the second man on the Moon also explained what NASA will have to do saying we may need to have some risky shuttle flights for a limited period of time, or we are going to stand down and fly Soyuz spacecraft. Buzz has already explained how future shuttle flights should be required to be lofted into an orbit that is compatible with that of the space station, so if problems came up or inspections/repairs were needed, shuttle crews would find safe-haven at the station.

I hope everything works out fine and everything goes ahead safely, this shuttle business has a lot of people looking at NASA.



Why haven't the American public backed a new space craft designs, is it that it doesn't even really care about Space exploration anymore ??

A a new manned shuttle to the station at 2010 or before would be great, even if it is the Russians who are doing it, the Kliper space ship might be very good indeed.

Maksutov
2004-Dec-08, 02:40 AM
Good point. Using SRB for a booster that ain't using solid fuel misses the point of the acronym.

So you're saying that the 10 times reusability (or 9, how you count it) counts for both the boosters and the core stage of the LV energia?
Just the boosters.


The Block A 11S25 booster stages were the responsibility of KB Yuzhnoye in the Ukraine, F Utkin, General Constructor. They were to be reused ten times, and were therefore fitted with parachute containers. Solid fuel soft landing rockets in the parachute lines provided a soft landing downrange. It's not clear how the 35 tonne boosters were to be transported back to base for reuse.

This was per the government decrees 132-51 authorizing development of the Energia-Buran system, issued on 12 February 1976 with the title "On development of an MKS (reusable space system) consisting of rocket stages, orbiter aircraft, inter-orbital tug, guidance systems, launch and landing facilities, assembly and repair facilities, and other associated facilities, with the objective of placing in a 200 km Northeast orbit a payload of 30 tonnes and returning a payload of 20 tonnes", and 1006-323 of 21 November 1977, and the ensuing TTZ (official military specification).

I sort of remember plans for the core stage to be redesigned for recovery, but it was definitely expendable in the first design go-around.

Here's a useful link. (http://www.friends-partners.ru/partners/mwade/lvfam/energia.htm)

Launch window
2004-Dec-08, 06:31 AM
kind of on a related note on Russian space plans

-

Russian scientists are selecting volunteers to be locked in a capsule kind of liike the BiosphereII, the Russian volunteers will be locked inside for 500 days to test plans for a trip to Mars

The project might be similar to Biodome-2 , & the mock mission is also designed to simulate the tough conditions of a space trip to the Red Planet. The experiment, to be based in Moscow, tests a plan to make long-range space travel and settlements possible.

I wonder if this Russian plan will also be a mess like other sealed Enviornment projects did when they ended in failure ? I suspect we have much to learn before we are able to get to Mars.

Nicolas
2004-Dec-08, 01:28 PM
That first picture puts it on top of a soyuz. I hope they can make this configuration reality, as this configuration was the showstopper for a manned European design.

The Angara launch vehicle seems reasonable, finally some of the LV Energia stuff gets into use. :)

I see on the pictures (klipper04.jpg) 3 configs: the shuttle alone, the shuttle with "something extra" on the back (interplanetary SM I presume, looks like the Soyuz SM?) and "something extra on the front" which I don't really get... It looks like an ascending stage (to return from an interplanetary flight?) But only having this size, that would only work on things like the moon I guess? (gravity). Is that thing in the front part of that thing in the back which is relocated before an interplanetary landing?

The quoted text already suggest only the moon, that would also explain the limited room given to the cosmonauts.

Also, in the pictures I see 4 people, where will the other 2 be placed? Are it rows of 3?

Interplanetary flights are fine by me, but that would be the one case in which I would prefer a Space Shuttle with a nice payload (spacelab like) which would give you some place to LIVE during the travel...unless it is the moon.

If the vehicle would fly with Angara to ISS or the moon, it would be a nice design: 6 pax ain't little, and can be replaced by less pax and some (lunar) cargo. The craft itself is reusable, os are the ANgara boosters. The Angara main stage isn't yet as far as I know, but if needed could possibly be redesigned to meet that goal. I don't know if this craft would need a stronger (Energia?) launcher to reach the moon, but the design seems at least realistic. Let's hope this will be the next step. And if it's as safe as soyuz, the space shuttle will get very close to retirement.

Launch window
2004-Dec-08, 08:48 PM
It may not take off, the Russian craft might look like a good the Russian Clipper ship could maybe carry up to seven people and be reused. But who will back the Russian CEV which will carry people into space, it seems maybe the Russian government is happy as things are. Are the Russian government will be willing to pay for the development of a radical new vehicle when the Soyuz does the job reasonable well now ? This Cliper - spell ? craft would require 10 billion roubles of investment for construction and completion. It is said that there was no substantive funding for the project and any major work would be dependent on enabling resolutions (and funds) from the office of the Russian President and the Russian government, so maybe they will have trouble to get more funding.
Here are some more photos / pics of the craft


Russia's Kliper (http://www.photocenter.ru/myphoto/films/eu6gN6F3c8hO3c1TIF9ScQ/o-hg3p3j4q6zP95jcB2cfdLA/25.jpg)
The Clipper again - spelling ? (http://www.1tv.ru/img/20040224160742.GIF)
Another photo (http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/041130/kliper.hmedium.jpg)
photo 4 (http://www.photocenter.ru/myphoto/films/eu6gN6F3c8hO3c1TIF9ScQ/o-4kt2YqgJSpHrSzf3E8e6OA/21.jpg)
photo 5 (http://www.photocenter.ru/myphoto/films/eu6gN6F3c8hO3c1TIF9ScQ/o-PkVMHQff0aaZ9p7PTOwLug/18.jpg)
photo 6 (http://www.photocenter.ru/myphoto/films/eu6gN6F3c8hO3c1TIF9ScQ/o-TKWruLXP9HJJvNF8iXmq6g/8.jpg)
last photo (http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper_chute_1.jpg)

Zachary
2004-Dec-08, 08:55 PM
I doubt this thing will ever come to fruitition as I simply don't see the Russian government shovelling over 10 billion roubles for this.

Nicolas
2004-Dec-08, 09:26 PM
Is that an unfinished Buran in the back?

And how much is 10 billion Roubles? The Buran costed 14.5 billion rubles to develop.

I don't know where they will get the funds from. Maybe from selling Kyoto air? :) ANyway, they just updated the Soyuz, by the time this Clipper is finished (2010-2012) they can use something different, Soyuz is an old and limited concept (capacity, power, non reusable) though very safe. Seems like Clipper will use parts of Soyuz. (or derivatives)

Launch window
2004-Dec-09, 07:14 AM
Has anyone see this
[ /quote] [ quote

photos and a description of a laser space battle station Skiff the Soviet Union was building in the 80's to counter the US's Star Wars initiative.



http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=30510

Pretty cool, and scary.

Nicolas
2004-Dec-09, 08:59 AM
That's what I know as Polus (Polyus) sitting on top of an LV Energia. The Energia was succesful, though Polus failed to reach final orbit (as pointed out in the linked thread). Russia was extremely cautious about the place where the remains of Polus fell to earth (it lies on bottom of the ocean now).

Polus was the unarmed test bed for the Skiff military station, which never was built as far as is known. Military Polus/skiff development stopped after the Polus failure. Possibly there were checks for commercial adaptation of the Polus station (minus the space weapons I presume :) )

Was this to be a manned station? That never has been clear to me.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Feb-10, 07:10 AM
Here's what I understand of the Russian plans, there are a numebr of space writers that think in the next decade Space flights could just as easily be dominated by a resurgent Russian space industry, a high percentage of good launches which means efficient, and the ability to do this at a lower cost. They also might plan on selling off some of their designs on pervious spacestations where efficient and practical atmospheric and water recycling systems came about. The Russians have had mega problems in space and they are very short on cash but their space designs were very good. Roskosmos of the Russians has recently signed a long-term agreement with the Europeans allowing Russians to establish Russia rocket-launch facilities at ESA's spaceport in Kourou, French Guiana - South America. This will make Soyuz almost double the payload it can lift to geosynchronous, plus leave room for many Tourist flights giving Russia extra cash boosts. They are also working on this new vehicle Clipper, and the Russian six-crew reusable space capsule is to go on display at the French international aerospace show at Le Bourget in June. 2007 will mark a big year for the Russians it is likely that they have something planned for this important date. Space Adventures working with RSC Energia might be giving two extra Tourist flights for sale, Russia wants to keep as many seats as possible available to sell commercially for Space trips, perhaps Russia is looking at setting up a steady flow of Soyuz seats for sale.

kg034
2005-Feb-10, 09:19 AM
Here's what I understand of the Russian plans, there are a numebr of space writers that think in the next decade Space flights could just as easily be dominated by a resurgent Russian space industry, a high percentage of good launches which means efficient, and the ability to do this at a lower cost. They also might plan on selling off some of their designs on pervious spacestations where efficient and practical atmospheric and water recycling systems came about. The Russians have had mega problems in space and they are very short on cash but their space designs were very good. Roskosmos of the Russians has recently signed a long-term agreement with the Europeans allowing Russians to establish Russia rocket-launch facilities at ESA's spaceport in Kourou, French Guiana - South America. This will make Soyuz almost double the payload it can lift to geosynchronous, plus leave room for many Tourist flights giving Russia extra cash boosts. They are also working on this new vehicle Clipper, and the Russian six-crew reusable space capsule is to go on display at the French international aerospace show at Le Bourget in June. 2007 will mark a big year for the Russians it is likely that they have something planned for this important date. Space Adventures working with RSC Energia might be giving two extra Tourist flights for sale, Russia wants to keep as many seats as possible available to sell commercially for Space trips, perhaps Russia is looking at setting up a steady flow of Soyuz seats for sale.


Go Ruskies!!!....hopefully they don't have earmarks over there....

Doodler
2005-Feb-10, 02:52 PM
Technically, the Russians can do this. The question is can they afford it? If they're feeling particularly brave, they can test and launch this thing, and if it works as well as expected, do the space tourism routine and maybe finance it. 1 or 2 launches, load it up with tourists for a jaunt, then use the rest for station trips.

publiusr
2005-Mar-03, 08:08 PM
That's what I know as Polus (Polyus) sitting on top of an LV Energia. The Energia was succesful, though Polus failed to reach final orbit (as pointed out in the linked thread). Russia was extremely cautious about the place where the remains of Polus fell to earth (it lies on bottom of the ocean now).

Polus was the unarmed test bed for the Skiff military station, which never was built as far as is known. Military Polus/skiff development stopped after the Polus failure. Possibly there were checks for commercial adaptation of the Polus station (minus the space weapons I presume :) )

Was this to be a manned station? That never has been clear to me.

Look it up on www.astronautix.com
www.k26.com/buran

Nicolas
2005-Mar-03, 08:39 PM
OK it seems Polyus only had a docking capability for transfer vehicles that housed cosmonauts , so they could have a place to stay and enter the servicing module without needing spacewalks. But as I read it, it wasn't a truly manned station, as there were only cosmonauts at the place when a space ship was docked to Polyus.

publiusr
2005-Mar-03, 09:04 PM
They were going to have another version of the Polyus hull as part of Mir 2. Look up the different Mir 2 concepts in astronautix. The 'bulb' on the end of polyus was the TKS ferry/FGB tug similar to what is launched by itself as old Mir modules like Spekter (now also in the ocean).

proton could launch one of these tugs by itself.

Energiya could launch one and an 80 ton platform to boot.

The tug sent polyus in the drink. Energiya worked just fine.

Nicolas
2005-Mar-03, 09:17 PM
They were going to have another version of the Polyus hull as part of Mir 2. Look up the different Mir 2 concepts in astronautix. The 'bulb' on the end of polyus was the TKS ferry/FGB tug similar to what is launched by itself as old Mir modules like Spekter (now also in the ocean).

proton could launch one of these tugs by itself.

Energiya could launch one and an 80 ton platform to boot.

The tug sent polyus in the drink. Energiya worked just fine.

How I read it, the hull part was designed for MiR2, and was used in Polyus because of the short development time required.

Do you have any new info on Klipper to share with us? (After all, that was the intended topic of this thread.)

publiusr
2005-Mar-04, 05:52 PM
log onto www.starshipmodeler.net and scroll down to the Real-Space Modeling Section.

There is a thread on the Kliper there, with many other links to it.

Nicolas
2005-Mar-04, 06:01 PM
Publiusr, the only links concerning Kliper that did load here from that thread referred to...this thread :)

publiusr
2005-Mar-04, 06:12 PM
Look up from that. There should be links there or at Buran vs. Dyna soar thread.

publiusr
2005-Mar-04, 06:22 PM
Rats! Some links down. The folks there may have bookmarked the old Kliper links I posted on the old Kliper page no longer there.

Try this:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-05j.html
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/02/09/cliper.shtml
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper.html

Here are some links of interest:

1/288 models:
http://www.aviapress.com/viewproducer.htm?STA


A contact of mine at MSFC sent me this hardcopy:
http://www.bis-spaceflight.com/publicC.htm

There is information about the next Long March vehicle. IIRC, the core is to be five meters wide, with two diameters of kerolox strap-ons. One is a three-meter lox/RP strap-on. Currently, the largest version of this Long March will be the "504" with a five meter core and four of the big diameter (3.35 meter) strap-ons. There could be a "506" with six strap-ons and a "508" with eight. This would not carry much over 45 tons to LEO, though the 504 might allow a full capsule to do a ZOND type circumlunar flyby.

The AN-225 launched Zenit--svityaz:--scroll down--right side artist conception...
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/zenit.html

Russian spaceplanes-
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/spacecraft_reusable.html

Recent Copy of Cosmonautics news--note the Indian GSLV-next. New Medium-heavy Launchers in this issue--ener-buran at bottom:
http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?NOK-200401

Others:
http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?NOK-200310
http://www.cosmoworld.ru/eng/nk-online/index.shtml?archive
http://www.videocosmos.com/magazine/new/archives.htm
http://www.videocosmos.com/magazine/nk0500/0500.htm
http://www.videocosmos.com/magazine/nk0500/0500.htm

http://www.universetoday.com/html/directory/spacenews.html


http://www.buran.ru/htm/techno.htm Buran cut-away
http://www.buran.ru/htm/molniya6.htm
http://www.air-and-space.com/Antonov%20An-225%20Mriya.htm

Nicolas
2005-Mar-04, 06:27 PM
OK those links worked (the first 3, before your edit, that is :)).

The first 2 said that a mockup will be shown at the Le Bourget airshow.

The third link has more info on Kliper + possible launchers for the craft.
3 launchers are currently in the running.

Nicolas
2005-Mar-04, 06:32 PM
Publiusr, those are nice sites, but maybe you should reduce the number of links in your posts. Many of those links concerned general Russian spacecraft, while this thread is about Kliper.

If you post that many links, people won't look at them all. It is better to choose some really relevant links having new information, and post those with a accompanying message. That way, you get the relevant information across, and you don't drown the readers in all kinds of info.

This will keep the thread easier to read, less likely to be hijacked, and cost the reader less time.

I am very interested in Buran and other Russian projects, but it just isn't the topic of this thread. Here I am looking about new info/new pics of Kliper (because Kliper seems to have most chances of becoming the next russian craft).


JFYI

sarongsong
2005-Apr-11, 08:11 AM
April 8 (http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.php?feed=Science&article=UPI-1-20050408-06333500-bc-russia-space.xml)
"...[Kliper] would carry up to six people. Its projected lifespan is 25 flights."

Nicolas
2005-Apr-11, 11:49 AM
25 flights isn't little!

So is 10 billion Roubles..
I hope they manage to build it.

publiusr
2005-Apr-13, 09:44 PM
The kliper is set to compete with the new TKS derived design for the bigger Angara's.

Nicolas
2005-Apr-13, 10:59 PM
The "TKS"?

publiusr
2005-Apr-15, 05:16 PM
It is a long story. Take the Mir space station. The core block was known as Salyut and Almaz--all known as DOS core blocks--like Zvezda on ISS.

What is plugged on the ends of Mir were TKS ferries/FGB tugs. Both the DOS and TKS were rather like Soviet versions of our Gemini MOL. Take a capsule, and place it atop a runt space-station segment. The hatch goes through the heat-shield. I am not **'ing you--look up 'Almaz' on www.astronautix.com

The TKS was also to have such a system. Finally--the Sov's left the capsules off on the actual DOS and TKS, and put Soyuz docking hatches in their place. Two capsules were launched--one atop the other on the big Proton rocket--and both capsules were wrongly called mini-spaceplanes--Kosmos 881 and 882 IIRC. This stack was as high as one TKS ferry with its capsule atop it--so the shroud disguised everything.

The TKS ferry is like the Spekter module from Mir--and that tech is modified for the new Angara Super-Capsule, which is about the biggest capsule concept I've seen--closer to big Gemini--but also like an oversized Apollo.

Now names do change. The Orel/Ural flyback on www.spacedaily.com reminds me more of the Baikal fly-back--but that is another story. The former Soviets called nearly everything in space Kosmos-# and a lot of data is confusing.

Nicolas
2005-Apr-15, 05:50 PM
But the new TKS derivative won't be a reusable craft if I understand you correctly?

publiusr
2005-Apr-15, 05:57 PM
A partially reusable vehicle could carry up to 6 people -- not coincidentally a full crew of the International Space Station -- but also clearly featured capabilities for deep-space missions.

This site: www.russianspaceweb.com has most of the details I can find.

I see they have changed a few things again:

Here is the Mir-tech TKS:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/tks.html

And the new capsule to be based upon it.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/tks_followon.html

It's ride to be:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara3.html
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/angara100.html

Its competitor--the Kliper in detail, and the upper stage to go atop the R-7 Soyuz booster:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kliper.html
Kliper might ride on this--whose tech is used with the Angara-100:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/zenit.html

Here is a story on the flyback booster:
http://www.cast.cn/en/ShowArticle.asp?ArticleID=484

The illustration is for an SSTO shuttle--the real flyback will look more like this:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikal.html


************************************************** *****


In other news:

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2005/apr/HQ_05250_griffin_confirmed.html

April 13, 2005

Dean Acosta/Bob Jacobs
Headquarters, Washington
(Phone: 202/358-1898/1600)

RELEASE: 05-250

DR. MICHAEL D. GRIFFIN TO BECOME NASA ADMINISTRATOR

The U.S. Senate tonight confirmed the nomination of Dr. Michael D. Griffin
as NASA's 11th Administrator. He is expected to be sworn in later this week.

President George W. Bush nominated Dr. Griffin as NASA Administrator in
March, while he was serving as the Space Department Head at Johns Hopkins
University Applied Physics Laboratory, Baltimore.

Dr. Griffin was President and Chief Operating Officer of In-Q-Tel, Inc.,
before joining Hopkins in April 2004. He also served in several positions
within Orbital Sciences Corporation, Dulles, Va., including Chief Executive
Officer of Magellan Systems, Inc.

Earlier in his career, Dr. Griffin served as Chief Engineer at NASA and as
Deputy for Technology at the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization. He
also has served as an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland,
Johns Hopkins University and George Washington University.

publiusr
2005-Apr-27, 07:12 PM
PS they have changed the www.russianspaceweb.com site--so you will have to search awhile for more updates

kg034
2005-Jun-13, 07:26 AM
Itar-Tass: ESA pledges support for Kliper? (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-05zi.html)

And a bit below that: Russia Happy to take over ISS if US bails (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/iss-05zzr.html)

kucharek
2005-Jun-13, 07:29 AM
Itar-Tass: ESA pledges support for Kliper? (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-05zi.html)

And a bit below that: Russia Happy to take over ISS if US bails (http://www.spacedaily.com/news/iss-05zzr.html)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8148275/

The Russians are pretty good at making announcements. But when it comes to money...

Launch window
2005-Jul-05, 11:28 AM
Russian spacecraft will be the answer ?

http://www.physorg.com/news4929.html
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=2144747&PageNum=0

publiusr
2005-Jul-06, 07:00 PM
Europe blows hot and cold on Russian involvement. The R-7 pad being constructed at Kourou is about a year behind schedule. It will need hydrogen upper stage handling facilities if it is to launch Kliper. On page 33 of the June 27, 2005 AV Week is the article Sat Savings, which tells about hoe CNES will develope a 12-18kw., 6-8 ton platform for very large telecommunications satellites that we will see in the next decade--called Alpha Bus which "is designed for 5-meter-wide fairings on the next generation of commercial launchers."

Not even the Onega (Omega R-7) fitted for Kliper will lift that monster to Geosynch. Rumor has it that even the UR-500 Proton must be adapted to a five meter fairing to stay competitive.

Heavy lift needs will not go away:

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1040

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Jul-12, 08:38 PM
Another related topic
http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3101



Soyuz to launch from French Guiana

publiusr
2005-Jul-13, 07:45 PM
That would help Kliper get to orbit--the southerly launch point to get that last bit of help from Earth's rotation. R-7 is about the only launch vehicle I would risk placing a winged craft atop.

Nicolas
2005-Jul-15, 02:41 PM
My mind is overheated here :wink:.

Is R-7 the vehicle Soyuz is launched on?

publiusr
2005-Jul-20, 07:37 PM
Yes--though they don't call it R-7 any more. The Launch Vehicle itself is called Soyuz itself now--to add to the confusion.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Aug-18, 09:14 AM
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketscience-05zz.html
http://en.rian.ru/science/20050727/40986242.html

Russia Schedules Clipper Spacecraft Launch

publiusr
2005-Aug-19, 08:31 PM
Shenzhou
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/china-05zzzzzq.html
China Ambitions
http://www.spacewar.com/news/china-05zzzzzm.html

Kliper
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-05zzzj.html

New Alliance
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/ukraine-05b.html
The Angara boosters:
http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/angara5a.htm
http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/a/angara04.jpg
Big Air
http://www.irkut.com/en/
Putin as salesman
http://www.spacedaily.com/2005/050816152835.0x14rch7.html

Manchurian Taikonaut
2005-Sep-30, 02:11 AM
USA and Europe offered Kliper outfitting contract
http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/08/30/Navigation/200/201273/USA+and+Europe+offered+Kliper+outfitting+contracts .html
The developer of the six-crew Kliper reusable spacecraft, Russia’s Energia, has opened negotiations with European and US companies to outfit the vehicle’s flightdeck and interior.


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/28/space_plane_funding/
The European Space Agency is asking member states to fund a two-year feasibility study into joining forces with the Russians to build Kliper, a new people-carrying space plane that will take over missions to the International Space Station.....Expensive as this sounds, the project would give Europe more autonomy in space - providing a route to exploring the moon that is not dependent on the USA, for instance. It is uncertain how the UK in particular will respond to the request for funds. The current space policy is that unmanned exploration is the most efficient way of doing good space science. Manned flights are not considered a priority.

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=19533
Can the Russians make a comeback ( 2007 ) ?

publiusr
2005-Sep-30, 07:05 PM
The Comeback has been made. They are the dominant space power and have been ever since we killed the Saturns.

Launch window
2006-Jan-06, 09:12 PM
In July the Russian Cabinet approved a 10-year, US $10.7 billion space exploration program designed to put Russians on the Moon and Mars and restore the cash-starved space agency to its former Soviet glory.
The program specifies a manned mission to Mars and joint manned missions to the Moon with NASA. Some of the funding will be used to develop and build a new six-seater space shuttle called Klipper that will replace the current three-seater Soyuz manned launch vehicle, which is 38 years old and in urgent need of renewal.
http://www.newsahead.com/content/view/1010/71/
The 10-year civil exploration program will also include development of the Angara family of rockets and new modifications to the Soyuz-2 launch vehicle. Russia’s own interplanetary mission is also planned. This would send a probe to a Mars satellite to collect samples.

$44 million Soyuz deal reached
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/space/3568750.html
Move allows return of U.S. astronaut, transport of a new space station crew

publiusr
2006-Jan-25, 08:49 PM
I think it is more likely for Kliper to ride Zenit--the way things look now. Hard to say.

Manchurian Taikonaut
2006-Mar-16, 12:42 PM
Re-usable Clipper spacecraft to be introduced by 2015

"The project is ready and we are already implementing it," said Nikolai Sevastyanov, the head of Russia's Energiya Rocket and Space Corporation. "We are planning to put the Clipper into use by 2015."

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060314/44286398.html