PDA

View Full Version : The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug (possible spoilers?)



crosscountry
2013-Dec-26, 11:29 AM
It was fun being in Middle Earth again, but I prefer the story written by J. R. R. Tolkein. Peter Jackson shouldn't have been allowed to make these movies. There were about 120 minutes of things not at all in the book.



Fun parts were seeing Benedict Cumberbatch's Smaug, the spiders, and looking over the Lake town. I was pretty disappointed with how they treat Beorn and the Wood Elves. Then the ending was not an ending at all.


http://www.upnorthgeorgia.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/The-Hobbit-2.jpg

JohnD
2013-Dec-26, 01:12 PM
Er, Cross, there is a third film to come before you get any sort of 'ending'.
John

Swift
2013-Dec-26, 02:05 PM
Thread moved from OTB to SMAL

Nowhere Man
2013-Dec-26, 05:08 PM
I'm wondering if, after film three is released, some rabid fans will edit them down to something closer to the book, taking out as many of Jackson's additions as possible.

Fred

tusenfem
2013-Dec-26, 06:54 PM
First of all, it is Tolkien :-)

likes:
Gandalf and Thorin
Spiders
Gandalf going to Dol Guldur
Escape in barrels (but see dislikes)
Laketown - just spectacular
Bilbo & Smaug - just perfect

dislikes:
running away from orcs (again and again and again and ...)
two seconds of Beorn (was it really that long?)
Elvendwarf love triangle
Very unsympathic Legolas
Orcs hunting the barrels, Legolas jumping from head to head, loosing 2/3/4 arrows at a time whilst making somersaults and cutting off heads
Dwarves in Erebor, uselessly fighting Smaug

That are the main points I guess, thinking about it after a few days.

(and yes I will buy the extended version with the weta statuette next christmas)

crosscountry
2013-Dec-27, 09:25 AM
I am very mad a Peter Jackson who turned something that should have been wonderful into an inglorious testament to computer animation and rewriting a classic. If they offered an Oscar for worst adaption of a screen play, he would surely win.

DonM435
2013-Dec-27, 02:23 PM
Took Mrs. M to see this (she's a devotee of the books).

I was underwhelmed by the dragon's ferocity. He could blast a cubic mile of flame across the set, and all it did was blow everybody out of the way, after which they kept on keepin' on. That beast was all talk.

JohnD
2013-Dec-28, 04:58 PM
It's very Tolkien, but many liberties taken with plot features - see Bold



First of all, it is Tolkien :-)
likes:
Gandalf and Thorin
Beorn far too easily persuaded to accept the dwarves - in book, Gandalf resorts to introducing them two by two,a ploy for which there was no time in the film, as they were pursued by Orcs - on which see below
no Enchanted River through Mirkwood - it was supposed to be their guide, not a 'yellow brick road'
Spiders
Gandalf going to Dol Guldur
Escape in barrels (but see dislikes) no orc pursuit in book; it's great sequence, just a bit too long
Laketown - just spectacular
Bilbo & Smaug - just perfect Rather too much gold!

And, I'd have to read it again, but I don't think that were any orcs in Hobbit, just (!) goblins. happy to be corrrected

dislikes:
running away from orcs (again and again and again and ...)
two seconds of Beorn (was it really that long?)
Elvendwarf love triangle how can you object to the film inserting a single female character, when the cast is otherwise entirely male! Bard's family doesn't count - they are just scenery
Very unsympathic Legolas
Orcs hunting the barrels, Legolas jumping from head to head, loosing 2/3/4 arrows at a time whilst making somersaults and cutting off heads
Dwarves in Erebor, uselessly fighting Smaug they didn't, in book


But anyway, the same happens with Dickens, and even Shakespear, when the story id made into a film.
Film is a different medium with different narrative needs.
If I had been Jackson, I'd have been tempted to reduce the number of dwarves - there are far too many for film. Even Tolkien quickly reduced the "Nine Riders" to groups of two, three and two for much of the book, took Gandalf away and got rid of Boromir, although there were other narrative needs for his death. He must have realised that "The Dwarves" or any such large group, disappears into a gestalt.

I almost wish I had been taking notes, because there were many film references in this one - But, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself!
An excuse to see it again, i suppose!
JOhn

NorthernDevo
2013-Dec-29, 10:04 AM
Well...
I've been going out of my way to avoid considering the second movie of this trilogy; but of course I will go to see it. I do not like what Jackson did to the story; there's simply no reason to turn The Hobbit into a trilogy of long, over-winded movies. The only reason is that Peter knows he can make millions of bucks off each installment. I would have been delighted if Peter Jackson had made a single film but saying all that; I will admit that I will bury my complaints and go and buy yet another ticket, yet another Supersize Coke; yet another tub of Banged Grains (thanks for that, Sir Terry. ;) ). And of course the inevitable bag of Malteezers - simply can't have a movie without 'em.

The thing is I know the Hobbit story very well (as I'm sure most here do); and can't possibly see how PJ can turn it into a viable film. We know when it starts - when Gwahir Windlord and his Eagles carry the Dwarves to the Carrock just outside Beorn's house. But what then? All the second film can possibly include is the dark journey through Mirkwood and though that section offers some fine storytelling possibilities (the fight against the Spiders and the naming of Sting; the Dwarves' capture by the Elves and Bilbo's long, solitary fight to recover them) there is little you can make into a movie; unless PJ decides to bring non-canonical elements in - IOW; making stuff up as he goes along as he did in the last film. As far as I can see the second film should end with the party's arrival at Laketown but from comments here; I suspect old PJ wasn't willing to leave it at that. In the book, you never see Smaug until Bilbo confronts him. The title of the second movie alone suggests PJ is abandoning Tolkien's superb work.

So yes, I'll see it. I'll go watch and probably be as p#$%#-ed off and dissolusioned as I am any time I see a movie made in the last ten years but man - Tolkien's work has stood the test of time. The Hobbit is a magnificent piece of young-adult fiction; Peter Jackson would have done well to understand what Tolkien created there.

I've always said Peter Jackson knows how to tell a good story; he just doesn't know when to stop telling it.

tusenfem
2013-Dec-29, 10:10 AM
First of all, it is Tolkien :-)

It's very Tolkien, but many liberties taken with plot features - see Bold


This was as a comment to crosscountry writing "Tolkein".



Elvendwarf love triangle how can you object to the film inserting a single female character, when the cast is otherwise entirely male! Bard's family doesn't count - they are just scenery


And I can object a lot actually, to put in a new character only to have her be a useless Elvin, with a unnecessary and painfully embarrassing love triangle, that does not add anything to the whole story, except to rescue her dwarven soulmate from an injury which he would not have in the first place if Jackson had stuck to the story of the professor.

Okay, there are no women in the story, maybe that is bad (of which I am not convinced), but if you then add a women, please put some effort in to make it a worth while addition. As it is, I would see it as an insult to women, "elvin talks 5 minutes to a pretty boy dwarve, a species she should dislike as a wood elvin, and is totally smitten." We must be happy she is not blond.

geonuc
2013-Dec-29, 10:34 AM
... In the book, you never see Smaug until Bilbo confronts him. The title of the second movie alone suggests PJ is abandoning Tolkien's superb work....

You might want to see the movie before speculating too much further about it.

jokergirl
2013-Dec-29, 10:42 AM
They could have made a few of the dwarves female. It's not like you can tell ;)
*waits for the flames*

;)

geonuc
2013-Dec-29, 10:55 AM
I saw the introduction of the female elf as more than an attempt to add a love triangle element. Jackson apparently recognized an aspect of woodelven society that goes unremarked in the books: the woodelves are Silvan but are ruled by a Sindar high elf (Thranduil, Legolas' father). A similar situation existed with Galadriel and the elves of Lothlorien. In the movie, Thranduil takes exception to his son wooing a lowly Silvan elf.

JohnD
2013-Dec-29, 11:32 AM
Tusenfem,
I forgot the last syllable of your name!
And also forgot that female dwarves are indistinguishable from males, except to another dwarf, so who can tell among Thorin's band? Or is that Terry Pratchett?
Yes, to introduce the female elf character, ONLY to have a love story, and such an unlikely one too, is - well - cheesy. As geo suggests, an emotional conflict between her and Legolas would be more convincing and might provide a 'retcon' (I learn the language, you see!) for Legolas being 'available' in LOTR, and not ruling his own people in Mirkwood. He is sent/goes away after she dies (as I have no doubt she will - she might as well be wearing a red jumper) to assuage his loss in travel.

And geo refers to the alternative interpretaion of the Middle Earth oeuvre, a right-wing, paternalistic one, that supports monarchy, feudalism and sees racial disharmony as inevitable and even "right". Incorrect, IMHO, but arguable.
John

tusenfem
2013-Dec-29, 03:12 PM
... that supports monarchy, ...

Being Dutch, I am all in favour of the monarchy :-)

geonuc
2013-Dec-29, 03:27 PM
And geo refers to the alternative interpretaion of the Middle Earth oeuvre, a right-wing, paternalistic one, that supports monarchy, feudalism and sees racial disharmony as inevitable and even "right". Incorrect, IMHO, but arguable.
John

I'm not sure I referred to all that.

Trebuchet
2013-Dec-29, 03:56 PM
And, I'd have to read it again, but I don't think that were any orcs in Hobbit, just (!) goblins. happy to be corrrected

The goblins ARE orcs. The Hobbit was written as a childrens' book so Tolkien used a more familiar word. At one point, however there is a line something like "Even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains..." when discussing the goblins.

NorthernDevo
2013-Dec-31, 05:02 AM
You might want to see the movie before speculating too much further about it.

You're almost certainly right; but we have plenty of examples of PJ's work to draw upon. And we can assume he will do to the second film what he did to the first. (shrug) If I'm wrong I'll apologize later; but I doubt it.

NorthernDevo
2013-Dec-31, 05:22 AM
And also forgot that female dwarves are indistinguishable from males, except to another dwarf, so who can tell among Thorin's band?

I wonder though if that is a Tolkien fact or a Pratchett one?

I don't recall any point in the LoTR books which state Dwarf women are indistinguishable from men; it does appear in the PJ film The Two Towers when Gimli is cheering up the unhappy Eowyn - a lovely scene. It might well be right; I'm fairly certain it doesn't appear in LoTR and can't recall if it appears in The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales. I never had the opportunity to read The History of Middle Earth; nor, I must admit, much desire; the Silmarillion had been hard enough to get through. (In a good way, I mean.) By the time I fineshed THAT work I was quite ready to curl up with an Archie comic book, thanks. :)

Anyhoo; just curious - is the similarity-of-gender of Dwarfs a Tolkien creation or a Pratchett one? I'm sure most here know very well that the indistinguishability of gender is one of the most core - and of course funniest - aspect of Sir Terry's take on the race Dwarf; and I wonder if that in this one place - for I'll bet you a buck here and now Mr. Jackson is a Pratchett fan - the two fantasies overlapped.

Lol - I KNOW I'm totally nerding out here but that's what fantasy is for, innit?

Cheers!

NorthernDevo
2013-Dec-31, 05:36 AM
The goblins ARE orcs. The Hobbit was written as a childrens' book so Tolkien used a more familiar word. At one point, however there is a line something like "Even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains..." when discussing the goblins.

In support of your point Treb; the term for the race in the Common Tongue is 'Goblin'. The Elvish word for the race is 'Orc'. The corrupted race became known as 'Orcs' (at least in the books) because that is how the Elves - and the Elf-trained - referred to them. Thus 'Goblins' and 'Orcs' are the same creature - right up until Saruman thought up a new, terrible twist, and created the Uruk-Hai. Then everything went right to he....er...got a whole lot worse. ;)

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-31, 08:07 AM
NorthernDevo, Gimli's entertaining speech about female dwarves is taken from one of the appendices of LOTR.

NorthernDevo
2013-Dec-31, 08:17 AM
NorthernDevo, Gimli's entertaining speech about female dwarves is taken from one of the appendices of LOTR.

Must have missed it and am embarrased for doing so. Can you direct me to the correct appendix?I'll look it over myself and get back to you. In 40 years of reading it, I've never seen that fact offered.

Thanks!

Paul Beardsley
2013-Dec-31, 08:58 AM
Must have missed it and am embarrased for doing so. Can you direct me to the correct appendix?I'll look it over myself and get back to you. In 40 years of reading it, I've never seen that fact offered.

Thanks!

I would if I could... My copy of ROTK is in the loft somewhere (I don't use physical books so much since I got a Kindle).

Hang on, I've got a copy on Kindle! (Short search later...)


Dis was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories. It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish opinion among Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow out of stone'.

From Appendix A Annals of the Kings and Rulers III Durin's Folk

Extravoice
2013-Dec-31, 02:56 PM
This movie consists of about one third "The Hobbit" and two thirds "Stuff Peter Jackson added."

IMHO, he should have stuck more closely to the story, but decided to go for a grand tie-in with the LoTR.
The movie isn't bad, but I prefer he'd made a simpler movie adaptation of "The Hobbit."

swampyankee
2013-Dec-31, 03:44 PM
And geo refers to the alternative interpretaion of the Middle Earth oeuvre, a right-wing, paternalistic one, that supports monarchy, feudalism and sees racial disharmony as inevitable and even "right". Incorrect, IMHO, but arguable.
John

I think David Brin makes much the same criticism. Tolkien was a veteran of the Great War, and many of his friends were killed in that war, which was considered, by some, to be the first "industrial" war; this would tend to reduce one's attachment to the idea of "progress."

See http://www.salon.com/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/
http://www.davidbrin.com/tolkien.html

JohnD
2014-Jan-01, 03:44 PM
I am constantly impressed by the eruditon of Tolkien fans, whereas I just enjoy the stories.

A quick Google for Prachett's view finds this Wiki page. See the Emancipation section: http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/index.php/Dwarfs#Dwarf_emancipation

And direct from Sir Terry himself, "All dwarves have beards and wear up to twelve layers of clothing. Gender is more or less optional." Guards, guards!

John

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-01, 04:08 PM
This movie consists of about one third "The Hobbit" and two thirds "Stuff Peter Jackson added."

From what I have heard so far, most of the stuff Peter Jackson added was Tolkien material. Mind you, I haven't seen the second film yet.

Moose
2014-Jan-01, 06:17 PM
From what I have heard so far, most of the stuff Peter Jackson added was Tolkien material. Mind you, I haven't seen the second film yet.

There are more liberties taken, with varying degrees of success. A truly faithful Tolkien adaptation would make for a rather weak set of movies. For every Battle of Helm's Deep, there's a Tom Bombadil and hours of sitting around, talking.

/ The addition of Tauriel was fine, as was her interest in Killi (and her tactful ignoring of Legolas's interest.) The superhero-Legolas bouncing around like a Gummi Bear was a bit much, though.

Trebuchet
2014-Jan-01, 09:01 PM
I just saw something on CNN saying that Stephen Colbert has a cameo role in the film.

CJSF
2014-Jan-02, 01:48 PM
I have to agree with many of the criticisms of the film here in this thread. Another issue I have is with the Rube Goldberg escape scenes. The molten-gold flume rides and mine car and chains flailing are ridiculous, in my opinion, and were done merely as 3-D bait. Similarly, the orc pursuit and subsequent Legolas-bouncing were in some ways even worse than the ridiculous escape scene from the goblins in the first movie. And were the heck did all that gold come from? There was more volume of gold there than there would have been dwarves! What, did they all carry 200 pounds of gold with them all the time? With that much gold, it would be worth less than pocket lint!

CJSF

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jan-02, 02:23 PM
I have to agree with many of the criticisms of the film here in this thread. Another issue I have is with the Rube Goldberg escape scenes. The molten-gold flume rides and mine car and chains flailing are ridiculous, in my opinion, and were done merely as 3-D bait. Similarly, the orc pursuit and subsequent Legolas-bouncing were in some ways even worse than the ridiculous escape scene from the goblins in the first movie
Video game tie-ins.

It's a pet peeve of mine when you can just see that the scenes are added specifically for the game that's being made ready too.

Glom
2014-Jan-03, 12:16 AM
Molten gold is also very hot. I also couldn't help but worry about the carbon monoxide levels when Smaug was breathing fire.

I enjoyed this one much more than the last one. It felt like something actually happened in this film rather than just stuff. Those dwarves are useless. They kept needing to be saved by Bilbo, which is admittedly a refreshing change of pace from LOTR. The film's stopping (it doesn't have an ending, just a stopping) highlights the problem of the structure though. Whereas with LOTR you felt like you'd watched a film at the end of each one, here you only feel like you've watched part of a film.

Now that Gandalf knows that Sauron is back, what is he going to do for the next 60 years?

CJSF
2014-Jan-03, 12:39 AM
Now that Gandalf knows that Sauron is back, what is he going to do for the next 60 years?

Yes, I noticed that problem. My recollection of The Hobbit (the book) is very fuzzy now, though. I don't think they really ever determined it was Sauron in the book. Gandalf strongly suspects it, but it isn't until events leading up to LOTR that he confirms it, right? Correct me if I am not remembering right, please.

CJSF

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-03, 07:59 AM
The film's stopping (it doesn't have an ending, just a stopping) highlights the problem of the structure though. Whereas with LOTR you felt like you'd watched a film at the end of each one, here you only feel like you've watched part of a film.

When I saw the first LOTR film at the cinema, I remember a woman sitting behind me going, "Huh!" at the end. The film did have a climax and coda, but it was so inconclusive (to people who did not know it was the first part of a trilogy) that it must have felt like a sudden stop.

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-03, 08:08 AM
Yes, I noticed that problem. My recollection of The Hobbit (the book) is very fuzzy now, though. I don't think they really ever determined it was Sauron in the book. Gandalf strongly suspects it, but it isn't until events leading up to LOTR that he confirms it, right? Correct me if I am not remembering right, please.

CJSF

That's how I remember it. They knew there was a Necromancer in Mirkwood who was doing bad things, but his identity was no more than a suspicion.

Mind you, whereas waiting 60 years to deal with a worldly Satan seems a bit much, it's quite in keeping with LOTR. "Well, Frodo, it seems that you have the One Ring! The fate of the world depends on it being destroyed. So, if you wouldn't mind thinking about going on a quest to do this. Some time in the next year should be fine - never mind about the folk at Minas Tirith."

geonuc
2014-Jan-03, 10:00 AM
...

Mind you, whereas waiting 60 years to deal with a worldly Satan seems a bit much, it's quite in keeping with LOTR....

Indeed. Consider that Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth by the Valar to counter dark forces, yet took well over a thousand years to get around to visiting Dol Guldur even though signs of evil had appeared there pretty much the same time as he arrived in ME. And Dol Guldur was at that time the evilest place in Middle Earth, which isn't all that large.

After visiting Dol Guldur and seeing the growing evil (I believe Gandalf did something the quash it at least temporarily), he and others many years later formed the White Council to consider this new threat. Even then, Gandalf did not revisit Dol Guldur to check up on things for hundreds of years. Sauron was expelled from Dol Guldur five hundred years after the White Council first met to consider the threat.

So, tossing the ring into Mt Doom (with Gollum attached to it) happened pretty rapidly after Gandalf learned Bilbo's ring was the One.

jokergirl
2014-Jan-03, 10:13 AM
That's pretty much the MO of everyone in Middle-Earth until the mortal races take over. If you're immortal, you can afford to spend a few hundred years making 100% sure instead of jumping to any hasty conclusions.
Not that it ever made things better for anyone. Usually, the threat was well and truly entrenched before any Elf or Maia got off their backsides to do something about it.

That, or JRR Tolkien has no sense of time scale. Which I sometimes suspect.

;)

Tog
2014-Jan-03, 11:52 AM
Video game tie-ins.

It's a pet peeve of mine when you can just see that the scenes are added specifically for the game that's being made ready too.

I wasn't thinking game, I was thinking theme park ride. We had the mine cars from the first one. Then we had the barrel log flume, zipline, and the "shovel in a river of molten gold" tunnel of love ride.

The bunny sled would have to be a POV thing in front of a big screen like that Michael Jackson ride in Disneyland 25 years ago.

Imagine the tourist dollars to be had from sleeping in "The Shire" hotel village while hiking to the locations in the movie before spending a day of thrilling fun reliving all the "peril" from ten plus hours of CGI wonder.

Tog
2014-Jan-03, 11:56 AM
When I saw the first LOTR film at the cinema, I remember a woman sitting behind me going, "Huh!" at the end. The film did have a climax and coda, but it was so inconclusive (to people who did not know it was the first part of a trilogy) that it must have felt like a sudden stop.

When the first LOTR came out, one of the bread guys who delivered to our store who had a definite lack of imagination said "I guess I liked it, but it seems like they left it really open for a sequel. It did seem a little too much Dungeons and Dragons in a few places though."

I quizzed him for five minutes to see if he was joking.

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-03, 12:08 PM
When the first LOTR came out, one of the bread guys who delivered to our store who had a definite lack of imagination said "I guess I liked it, but it seems like they left it really open for a sequel. It did seem a little too much Dungeons and Dragons in a few places though."

I quizzed him for five minutes to see if he was joking.

That is amusing, but to be fair, people like us are not the entirety of a movie's audience.

Tog
2014-Jan-03, 01:19 PM
That is amusing, but to be fair, people like us are not the entirety of a movie's audience.
True. But, I've still not read the books. I read The Hobbit in high school, but remember so little that I couldn't swear I even finished it. The only thing I knew about LOTR was what I'd picked up from articles in Entertainment Weekly.

I say he had a definite lack of imagination based on a different talk about weapons in the workplace. I said that it was silly to ban my five inch keychain fob when we sold plunger handles and butcher knives. He asked how a plunger handle could ever be used as a weapon. He was a bright guy about a lot of things, but thinking outside the box wasn't among his skills. He tended to take everything very literally.

CJSF
2014-Jan-03, 02:09 PM
True. But, I've still not read the books. I read The Hobbit in high school, but remember so little that I couldn't swear I even finished it. The only thing I knew about LOTR was what I'd picked up from articles in Entertainment Weekly.

I say he had a definite lack of imagination based on a different talk about weapons in the workplace. I said that it was silly to ban my five inch keychain fob when we sold plunger handles and butcher knives. He asked how a plunger handle could ever be used as a weapon. He was a bright guy about a lot of things, but thinking outside the box wasn't among his skills. He tended to take everything very literally.

Who, now?

CJSF

Moose
2014-Jan-03, 02:45 PM
He asked how a plunger handle could ever be used as a weapon.

Only one thing to do for that: feed him to a Dalek.

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jan-03, 09:20 PM
I wasn't thinking game, I was thinking theme park ride. We had the mine cars from the first one. Then we had the barrel log flume, zipline, and the "shovel in a river of molten gold" tunnel of love ride.

The bunny sled would have to be a POV thing in front of a big screen like that Michael Jackson ride in Disneyland 25 years ago.

Imagine the tourist dollars to be had from sleeping in "The Shire" hotel village while hiking to the locations in the movie before spending a day of thrilling fun reliving all the "peril" from ten plus hours of CGI wonder.
I haven't been on a ride in 15 years if not 20, I'll bow to your greater knowledge on the subject.

That said, something like the jumping around on platforms that are floating on a sea of lava while fencing with the bad guy, as was put in one of the Star Wars prequels, is a an example of the scenes I'm talking about, it ripped me straight out of my suspended disbelief.

After reading about this for a while, I have to say I don't even think I'll bother wasting the bandwidth to download them when the last part comes out.

Nowhere Man
2014-Jan-04, 12:51 AM
He asked how a plunger handle could ever be used as a weapon.

Sounds like he was asking for a demonstration. Did he get one?

Fred

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jan-04, 02:16 AM
He asked how a plunger handle could ever be used as a weapon. He was a bright guy about a lot of things, but thinking outside the box wasn't among his skills. He tended to take everything very literally.
He didn't understand the concept of a stick? :wall:

DonM435
2014-Jan-04, 03:11 AM
He didn't understand the concept of a stick? :wall:

Noun, or verb?

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jan-04, 05:14 AM
Noun.

DonM435
2014-Jan-04, 05:37 AM
The less unpleasant alternative, of course.

NorthernDevo
2014-Jan-04, 05:49 AM
Only one thing to do for that: feed him to a Dalek.

ROFL!!!!! I fell down laughing at that; when I was in the Army (during the Tom Baker days...or probably later; we just watched the Tom Baker ones) we were all Dalek fans. That silly toilet plunger got ten half-drunk soldiers howling with glee. Any time a Dalek screamed EX..TER...MIN..ATE!!! We all shouted "RO...TO...ROOT!!!"

OK; not funny by the standards of the normal Humans; but it had us rolling out of our chairs. ;) :rofl:

NorthernDevo
2014-Jan-04, 06:00 AM
I would if I could... My copy of ROTK is in the loft somewhere (I don't use physical books so much since I got a Kindle).

Hang on, I've got a copy on Kindle! (Short search later...)



From Appendix A Annals of the Kings and Rulers III Durin's Folk

The quote appears to have not copied over in the 'reply with quote'; but the quote provided astonishes me. Tolkien's writing is utterly superb - to turn a fairly prosaic description of the female Dwarfs into a phrase of such beauty and complexity. Wonderful.

Anyway, thanks for the confirmation. I'd forgotten that point.
:)

Tog
2014-Jan-04, 07:50 AM
He didn't understand the concept of a stick? :wall:
It wasn't a stick. A stick can be a weapon, that's why police carry them We were talking about a plunger handle. As I said, he was very literal.
And yes, I did demonstrate some of the things than could be done with a simple plunger handle.

Tog
2014-Jan-04, 07:52 AM
About the dwarfs popping from stone, which I missed the first time around, Was that used anywhere else, or was it just from that passage? I thought I recalled it from somewhere before.

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-04, 09:54 AM
About the dwarfs popping from stone, which I missed the first time around, Was that used anywhere else, or was it just from that passage? I thought I recalled it from somewhere before.

I'm no expert, but as far as LOTR is concerned, it's only in the second film and the appendix that I quoted; I don't think it's ever referred to anywhere else.

publiusr
2014-Jan-04, 09:23 PM
I thought the Dragon sounded a bit more like Tim Curry from LEGEND...

NorthernDevo
2014-Jan-05, 06:27 AM
I'm no expert, but as far as LOTR is concerned, it's only in the second film and the appendix that I quoted; I don't think it's ever referred to anywhere else.

I'm still a bit confused; I swear I read a passage in one of the later books relating a legend (Probably Silmarillion; it's simply loaded with legends) about a Darven chieftain fighting to save the life of his beautiful lover. I'm probably wrong; I might be thinking of one of the better-written other Fantasies - the Shanarra series perhaps; it had a superbly-crafted Dwarf race (though I can't say I'm particularly thrilled with Terry Brooks' writing). Odd - I'll go cruising around a bit and see what I can find.
Cheers!

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-05, 08:47 AM
I'm still a bit confused; I swear I read a passage in one of the later books relating a legend (Probably Silmarillion; it's simply loaded with legends) about a Darven chieftain fighting to save the life of his beautiful lover. I'm probably wrong; I might be thinking of one of the better-written other Fantasies - the Shanarra series perhaps; it had a superbly-crafted Dwarf race (though I can't say I'm particularly thrilled with Terry Brooks' writing). Odd - I'll go cruising around a bit and see what I can find.
Cheers!

You might be thinking of one of the early versions of the Beren and Luthien story... but you probably aren't! I think Beren was originally a gnome.

geonuc
2014-Jan-05, 09:33 AM
You might be thinking of one of the early versions of the Beren and Luthien story... but you probably aren't! I think Beren was originally a gnome.

There are versions of the story of Beren and Luthien?

Beren was a man, one of the Edain.

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-05, 10:21 AM
There are versions of the story of Beren and Luthien?

Yes. Tolkien didn't just sit down at his typewriter one day and write The Silmarillion from start to finish. Indeed, it wasn't put together until after his death. But he developed various stories, many of which got referred to in The Lord of the Rings, or even The Hobbit (there's mention of the hidden city of Gondolin) over a long period.


Beren was a man, one of the Edain.

Yes he was, in the final version.

geonuc
2014-Jan-05, 11:50 AM
Yes. Tolkien didn't just sit down at his typewriter one day and write The Silmarillion from start to finish. Indeed, it wasn't put together until after his death. But he developed various stories, many of which got referred to in The Lord of the Rings, or even The Hobbit (there's mention of the hidden city of Gondolin) over a long period.

I know about the The Silmarillion (I bought and read the book when it first was published), but I don't have any of the other published tales, other than the Hobbit and LotR, of course. Perhaps I should remedy that.

Paul Beardsley
2014-Jan-05, 12:22 PM
I know about the The Silmarillion (I bought and read the book when it first was published), but I don't have any of the other published tales, other than the Hobbit and LotR, of course. Perhaps I should remedy that.

Well you could read them if you want to, but it's a bit like watching a "behind the scenes" documentary about your favourite film - it might add to your enjoyment, but you certainly don't need it.

I'd probably recommend the longer account of Turin, though.

Trebuchet
2014-Jan-05, 03:44 PM
See #1 on this Cracked photoplasty (http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_751_25-movie-adaptations-too-awesome-to-exist_p1/#1)!

Nowhere Man
2014-Jan-05, 06:37 PM
See #1 on this Cracked photoplasty (http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_751_25-movie-adaptations-too-awesome-to-exist_p1/#1)!

Oh, if only! But, considering that Star Wars: The Phantom Edit got made, I predict about a week after the 3rd Hobbit movie becomes available before this comes out.

Fred

Hlafordlaes
2014-Jan-06, 02:34 AM
First of all, it is Tolkien :-)

likes:
Gandalf and Thorin
Spiders
Gandalf going to Dol Guldur
Escape in barrels (but see dislikes)
Laketown - just spectacular
Bilbo & Smaug - just perfect

dislikes:
running away from orcs (again and again and again and ...)
two seconds of Beorn (was it really that long?)
Elvendwarf love triangle
Very unsympathic Legolas
Orcs hunting the barrels, Legolas jumping from head to head, loosing 2/3/4 arrows at a time whilst making somersaults and cutting off heads
Dwarves in Erebor, uselessly fighting Smaug

That are the main points I guess, thinking about it after a few days.

(and yes I will buy the extended version with the weta statuette next christmas)

That about sums it up nicely, right there.