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View Full Version : Lebensraum Unendlich: In Search Of A Sequel



Noclevername
2014-Feb-23, 12:12 PM
Now the suggestion was made elsewhere (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?149231-Could-human-spaceflight-have-been-achieved-in-World-War-II) that my alternate-timeline story should be continued past the end of World War II. It's an interesting setting, so I'm willing to consider ideas for a second stage (that's a pun).

Let's start with where the prior story ends: The Axis powers have divided most of the Eastern hemisphere between them, though they are still busy putting down rebellions. The Nazis and the US both have demonstrated that they can put manned vessels in orbit. A shaky peace treaty allows both sides to travel into space for peaceful purposes. The atom has not yet been split in the lab.

But both sides want access to space for both military and peaceful reasons. The Nazi ideology calls for expansion and conquest. The American Pioneer ideal calls for the exploration and settlement of new territories. The Universe calls to them both. Competition will be fierce-- literally.

I am open to suggestions on how to proceed with this sequel from this starting point (keep in mind this is not a place to comment on the previous story).

Noclevername
2014-Feb-24, 07:40 AM
Since the next phase of both space programs is to put space stations in orbit, what kind of obstacles to orbital rendezvous and construction would exist in that timeline?

Jens
2014-Feb-24, 07:51 AM
But both sides want access to space for both military and peaceful reasons. The Nazi ideology calls for expansion and conquest.

I understand expansion, but why conquest? Conquest makes a lot of sense if you're going someplace where people are living, but if you're going somewhere where nobody else is, how can you possibly conquer it?

About the question, if you mean technical challenges, aren't they simple things like making a powerful enough rocket engine to put large things into orbit?

Noclevername
2014-Feb-24, 08:03 AM
I understand expansion, but why conquest? Conquest makes a lot of sense if you're going someplace where people are living, but if you're going somewhere where nobody else is, how can you possibly conquer it?
Space a dangerous environment and settling it will require conquering difficulties, not people.


About the question, if you mean technical challenges, aren't they simple things like making a powerful enough rocket engine to put large things into orbit?

The rendezvous question? It's a difficult technical challenge with limited radio and radar, and no computers*.

*Or rather, analog computers only.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-24, 08:13 AM
About the question, if you mean technical challenges, aren't they simple things like making a powerful enough rocket engine to put large things into orbit?

Putting a single payload in orbit isn't the longterm goal; placing permanently manned orbital forts is. And for that they need spin, a power source (mercury boilers, most likely, as solar panels don't exist yet) and large telescopes and antennae. Plus docking/repair sections for "exploratory" vehicles (actually combat fighters) and manned launchers and landers. Too much for a single heavy lifter. And that means the large things have to all go together.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-24, 01:23 PM
Forgot to add, since they expect to be shot at, each station will need fuel and engines to dodge, and point defenses.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-26, 12:16 PM
Trivial stuff that amuses me:

In the other thread where I was looking for technical data, everyone wanted to tell me how to change the story or write the plot. Now I'm asking for people to help tell me how to write a plot and everyone's gone mum!

Garrison
2014-Feb-27, 02:28 AM
Trivial stuff that amuses me:

In the other thread where I was looking for technical data, everyone wanted to tell me how to change the story or write the plot. Now I'm asking for people to help tell me how to write a plot and everyone's gone mum!

I think that's not uncommon. It's a lot easier to critique other peoples ideas than put your own out there. I actually did write a story a while back about a Germany v USA space race but I made the starting point well after the war and deliberately left the exact sequence of events that led to the Germans defeating the USSR out of it.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-27, 03:17 AM
Maybe I should tell people I've already got a full plot prepared for the sequel. That'll get the comments flowing!

OK, both powers have both begun building their space stations. The Allies notice that the new station the Nazis are working on is oddly shaped and has some unidentified components. Concerned that it's a weapon, they send in their best spies to discover that... it's a Moon lander! And the Nazis intend to claim the entire Moon as their own! The Allies hastily have to complete a mission to beat the Nazis to the Moon.

There, take that and run with it.

selvaarchi
2014-Feb-27, 03:26 AM
I would let the Nazis build their base on the moon. Learn from their mistakes and then build my own base on the moon.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-27, 03:29 AM
I would let the Nazis build their base on the moon. Learn from their mistakes and then build my own base on the moon.

You'd let them claim the Moon as their own and build (undoubtedly armed) bases there?

selvaarchi
2014-Feb-27, 03:40 AM
As it is war time claims do not mean anything. I am not saying we remain idle, I said we learn from their mistakes then establish our bases. e.g. use Yutu (Jade Rabbit) as an example - their rovers get stuck due to moon dust and you device a way to overcome it and take them out.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-27, 03:53 AM
As it is war time claims do not mean anything.

The war ended.

But, an undeclared Lunar war might make for an interesting plot. Now I just have to do it without starting WWIII on Earth...

Noclevername
2014-Feb-28, 06:49 AM
OK, so here's what I've got so far: Since the peace treaty is with the USA, and the Axis no longer recognizes the British Empire as an independent power, the US lets Canada send rocketeers to the Moon with disavowed American "volunteers".

Noclevername
2014-Feb-28, 06:58 AM
Since the US has several private rocket launching corporations, they can claim ignorance of what the Brits were paying them to ship up to orbit. Returning, however, will be a problem.

Noclevername
2014-Feb-28, 07:27 AM
Alternately, there could be a secret project built in Jamaica, to construct a huge one-shot Earth-To-Luna rocket with an oversized lander that becomes a base. Again, a return to Earth will require some difficulty.

Noclevername
2014-Mar-01, 06:37 AM
I'm also toying with the idea that one of the first applications of atomic energy would be (attempting) NTRs. The people of that time don't know the longterm effects of radioactivity, or how toxic certain isotopes can be, but an accident during early testing makes the Allies, at least very aware of radiation poisoning. (The Nazis dismiss this as "Western propaganda" and some even believe that their "superior Aryan physiology" would protect them. But they test it anyway.)

So no gas-core or liquid-core lifters, but a solid-core upper stage perhaps maybe?

Noclevername
2014-Mar-03, 03:11 AM
Maybe I should have the Lunar conflict lead to World War III. With atomic fission a delayed development, it might make sense to end this war with an A-Bomb instead of the previous one.

Noclevername
2014-Mar-04, 11:19 AM
Any suggestions about spacesuit design? I know without suit-sized radios, and with limited limb articulation, alternate methods will be needed for communication; connecting phone wires, coded flashing lights.

Could an open-cycle suit work? What pressures would they need, and how much time could a tank last? Is there a plausible method for switching out tanks in the field (in vacuum)?

EDIT: Actually I'll start a separate thread for this question.