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View Full Version : Moose picks a fight about Frozen. (Major spoilers.)



Moose
2014-Mar-15, 03:32 PM
*grin* Not a big one, but oh yes I am.

I've seen a fair bit of discussion of the movie (mostly on TVTropes) and I think most folks missed something important: both times Pappi the Troll elder talked about the head being easier than the heart, he wasn't talking about Anna. He had been talking about Elsa the whole time. That Anna had been hit in the head and heart was misunderstood coincidence.

The problem wasn't that Elsa couldn't control her magic. She had fine instinctive control over it as a child. Elsa believes what happened to Anna was her fault. Some argue the fault was Anna's. They were young children. There was no malice; there was no fault. The fun simply got out of hand the way it often does when young kids play rambunctiously. Anna got hurt because she didn't realize she was 'asking' Elsa to perform a catch that was too difficult given the circumstances. Elsa simply got overwhelmed and missed a desperation catch. It happens.

But that's not what Elsa understood. Her father, instead of helping Elsa gain proficiency with her magic (and supervising both so things didn't get out of hand again), her father made her fear her magic, fear hurting loved ones (and even fear loving them), and fear rejection once people found out.

Fight #1: Elsa sings Let It Go. Elsa's problem wasn't that she couldn't control her magic. She had exquisite control over it. The ice castle proves it. What she couldn't control was her _fear_ of letting people get too close. When she made the castle and otherwise broke out into life, she felt sufficiently isolated to let herself be herself. When others turned up, she froze up again. She hadn't let go of her fear, only her inhibitions. Those are different things.

Pappi had been warning them all along, and everybody misunderstood.

Fight #2: When Pappi healed Anna the first time, saying the head was easy, Elsa had been deliberately using her magic in measured amounts. Pappi could dispel head-magic because Elsa wasn't overpowering him with emotion. The second time, Pappi could do nothing about Anna, nor the Eternal Winter, simply because Elsa's fear was still fueling her insanely powerful heart-magic.

Fight #3: When Anna froze, Elsa's grief gripped her so overwhelmingly that her magic came very close to freezing time itself.

Fight #4: Anna's sacrifice isn't itself what broke the spell. Elsa did that herself, when Anna's sacrifice unfroze Elsa's frozen heart and realized she could let go.

So whaddya all gonna do about it? ;)

Gillianren
2014-Mar-15, 08:47 PM
Yup. No argument here. And seriously, worst parenting in Disney history. I will say that maybe Pappi could have suggested tutoring options?

Moose
2014-Mar-15, 10:34 PM
I love that movie waaaaay more than I ought to. The banter between Anna and Kristoff is absolutely precious, as are their facial expressions when listening to the other.

jokergirl
2014-Mar-16, 12:08 PM
The only thing that bothers me about the movie is the antagonist. (obvious spoilers to come next)




Spoiler zone

I can't get my head around his sudden face heel turn. It's not that it doesn't work on , but that he was shown as way too nice and considerate after the onset of the crisis. If he had not gone to the ice palace I could have bought it. But the line in the palace - "Don't be the monster they say you are" completely goes against the character and intentions shown later. If he had really wanted Elsa dead he should have stayed home knowing the guards would screw it up. Instead, he saves her life! It just doesn't match up for me.

Moose
2014-Mar-16, 01:03 PM
Spoilers throughout.


The only thing that bothers me about the movie is the antagonist. (obvious spoilers to come next)

Fight #5: If we can pick only one antagonist, then Elsa was the antagonist. (Antagonists don't have to be evil, just actively at cross purposes with the protagonist. Being provoked into it doesn't really change this.) The Duke of Weaseltown, and the Face Heel Turn guy were antagonists, certainly, but not The Antagonist. This was all about Anna saving her sister from herself. Everybody else was supporting cast and plot devices.

Fight #6: I've seen discussion about how Frozen broke the Disney Princess vs Wicked Queen trend, but I'm not so sure they have. Anna is classic Disney Princess protagonist in the Adorkable template. Elsa is Antagonist Queen throughout. Not wicked, certainly, but just as dangerous in her dangerous mode. Even in childhood when she's keeping Anna out, Anna clearly seeing her as an authority figure. "Go'way Anna!" "Okay bye.")


I can't get my head around his sudden face heel turn. It's not that it doesn't work on , but that he was shown as way too nice and considerate after the onset of the crisis. If he had not gone to the ice palace I could have bought it. But the line in the palace - "Don't be the monster they say you are" completely goes against the character and intentions shown later. If he had really wanted Elsa dead he should have stayed home knowing the guards would screw it up. Instead, he saves her life! It just doesn't match up for me.

Remember that he didn't know what he'd find. Had he taken a swipe at Elsa (seeing she'd already subdued two guards with crossbows and was clearly capable of wiping the floor with everybody), he'd have been the third outsider who killed (or tried to kill) the Queen in front of unimpeachable witnesses (who, technically, were on the edge of committing legitimate treason), starting a diplomatic row his brothers would immediately disavow. He wasn't 'in' with Anna yet, remember. He had to find her too, and he had to be seen the hero throughout.

What he did once Elsa was captured and Anna injured was pure opportunism and very fast talking riding solely on the crest of his perceived heroism and the chaos of the crisis. There is no way the privy council would have let either of those pronouncements slide had it been anybody else, or had they had time to think about it. I'm still not convinced there wouldn't be a 'wait, what did you just say?' moment once they had time to take a breath and compare notes.

jokergirl
2014-Mar-16, 02:09 PM
But he didn't have to save her life. He could heroically fail workout any blame falling on him. He was in enough with Anna that he could just have married her afterwards when she needed consolation.

Moose
2014-Mar-16, 03:06 PM
But he didn't have to save her life. He could heroically fail workout any blame falling on him. He was in enough with Anna that he could just have married her afterwards when she needed consolation.

Anna was still missing, fate unknown, and everybody who'd been near enough at the party knew that the Queen had not given her blessing. He still needed to hedge his bets in a pretty serious way at that point and make very _very_ nice with Elsa so she might change her mind about Elsa (or better yet, take him herself in the rebound). Or at the very least, remain Regent if the privy council agreed that Elsa had abdicated by fleeing.

Gillianren
2014-Mar-16, 05:32 PM
Elsa is the antagonist, but she isn't the villain. This is the first time Disney has made that distinction.

jokergirl
2014-Mar-20, 10:37 PM
I think what bothers me most about it is that he was positively heroic. It's not so much what he did as how he did it. He could have done the same things and I might have been fine with it, had it not been for the fact that he took risks to save other people.

Moose
2014-Mar-20, 11:56 PM
Heroism was every bit a part of his public self-image, even if it was very motivated by self-interest. That he was playing Anna doesn't really change that. It was corrupt, but like most people who accept corruption for advantage, he'd have found a way to rationalize it as for the greater good somehow. He'd play the hero because that was his path to finding his niche. As thirteenth son, he very definitely had something to prove to everybody. Himself most of all.

I don't think he quite realized how far he could cross the lines until he actually crossed them. Leaving Anna for dead was pure opportunism. I'm not sure he was even thinking when he actually drew on Elsa when he thought nobody was looking.

/ I sat down and watched Tangled. I didn't think I'd enjoy it as much as I have. I really liked the aesthetic of the end credits. :)
// Disney's really stepped it up since Pixar.

slang
2014-Mar-28, 12:16 AM
Not much of a Madonna fan, but the intro to this song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evxEOXkxRIA&feature=kp) is awesome!

*feels tap on shoulder... hears whisper...*

Oh..

Solfe
2014-Mar-28, 12:53 AM
Elsa is the antagonist, but she isn't the villain. This is the first time Disney has made that distinction.

Treasure Planet - Silver is willing to use people who may or may not kill Jim; Jim is perfectly willing to let nature take its course with Silver and his men. Both are willing to allow each other to die, but neither uses that as the default option or even desires that outcome. Ruthless as heck, but still antagonist vs. protagonist.

For amusement, watch the first 10 minutes of Treasure Planet and the 2009 Star Trek Movie. Same scene, except for the middle and last name.

Solfe
2014-Mar-28, 01:32 AM
I think what bothers me most about it is that he was positively heroic. It's not so much what he did as how he did it. He could have done the same things and I might have been fine with it, had it not been for the fact that he took risks to save other people.

He was a hero in his own mind, he was the man that could be king of a better kingdom, not the humdrum opportunistic kingdom where he originated. Had he won, he would have been a better man than all of his siblings. He had about 4 different ways to win:

Trusted steward - Anna and Elsa are dead with no clear way for him to be king. He had this when Anna put Hans in charge then vanished.
A Prince - Marries Anna and becomes a prince. Could have happened if he was more reasonable with Elsa or simply causes Elsa to flee forever. Locked this one up with his abandonment of Anna.
A King - Terminates Elsa's claim to the throne and marries Anna, with or without Anna's knowledge. Hans informing people he is going to kill Elsa for treason will make him king because he was "widower" of Anna.
Dream Job - Resolved the family issues with Elsa and Anna faithfully, then pursues Elsa instead of Anna. This was actually the plan from the start. Although unstated, this was his rational for being at the coronation. He was always trying to marry up and Elsa was the goal, Anna just happened to show up first and made failure seem impossible. Go back to trusted steward.

I think part of the point is how dangerously easy it is for victors to write history. Hans really wanted the Dream Job option and he missed it by a tiny bit because he kept trying to go a little farther each time he "won". Sometimes people move goalposts closer, Hans kept moving them farther. Weird method of failure.

jokergirl
2014-Mar-28, 01:38 PM
For amusement, watch the first 10 minutes of Treasure Planet and the 2009 Star Trek Movie. Same scene, except for the middle and last name.

That scene was the first thing I thought of as well when seeing the new Star Trek movie.

;)

Moose
2014-Mar-30, 12:03 PM
Speaking of eternal winters: Another two foot snowstorm predicted for today. Someone needs to give Elsa a hug already.

Mareykan
2014-Mar-31, 11:24 PM
http://everythingwrongwithfrozen.tumblr.com/


In all seriousness tho, I hate the song For The First Time in Forever with a burning passion.

Moose
2014-May-02, 10:43 PM
Yup. No argument here. And seriously, worst parenting in Disney history. I will say that maybe Pappi could have suggested tutoring options?

How It Should Have Ended (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ThvBNZdGcQ) has got your back, Gillian. :)

Swift
2014-May-07, 07:09 PM
A little off topic, but if I hear one more time the song from the movie they keep playing on the radio, I'm going to scream.

Moose
2014-May-07, 07:16 PM
[draws a deep breath, then is instantly immolated by the heat of Swift's glare]

Gillianren
2014-May-07, 10:23 PM
There's a great version on YouTube with a guy shifting to new voices from Disney/Pixar films through the whole thing. It's a single take, too.

Moose
2014-May-07, 10:46 PM
I liked it. :)