PDA

View Full Version : Does the US have anything equivalent to our RCMP?



banquo's_bumble_puppy
2004-Dec-17, 11:55 AM
Does the US have anything equivalent to our RCMP? A co-worker, (former RCMP) says that you do not. And if not, would it be a good idea?

Wally
2004-Dec-17, 12:20 PM
Let me be the first to show my ignorance. . . Uh, what IS RCMP????

TriangleMan
2004-Dec-17, 12:21 PM
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (also known as Mounties)

Wally
2004-Dec-17, 12:37 PM
Ahhh! Later in the morning, I might have figured that out myself. Didn't help that for some reason this morning I was thinking BBP was on the other side of the pond (England).

We have US Marshalls who work at the Federal level for federal crimes. Kinda like the "police" side of the FBI, if I had to draw a comparison (whereas the FBI would be more like the detective squad). Someone can correct me on this if I'm off base. . .

Moose
2004-Dec-17, 12:49 PM
I'd say you're right, Wally, in that the RCMP encompasses the Canadian equivalent of the US Marshall Service, the FBI, and both missions of the US Secret Service. Depending on the area, they also often have the mandate to take up local law enforcement and highway patrol duties.

ktesibios
2004-Dec-17, 04:35 PM
I'd say you're right, Wally, in that the RCMP encompasses the Canadian equivalent of the US Marshall Service, the FBI, and both missions of the US Secret Service. Depending on the area, they also often have the mandate to take up local law enforcement and highway patrol duties.

Here in the USA it's commonly the state police who are responsible for highway patrol and for law enforcement in areas which have no local police department.

Sometimes that last is handled at the county level. For example, here in Los Angeles County the county sheriff's department is contracted by some smaller municipalites to provide police services.

LunarOrbit
2004-Dec-17, 05:21 PM
The American government has always seemed overly complicated to me. The law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and military are pefect examples because there seems to be a lot of overlap in their rolls which would seem to cause conflict between them.

Combining the FBI, US Marshalls, and the Secret Service would make cooperation easier, and you wouldn't see the kind of competitiveness that complicated the September 11th investigation. You could also combine the multiple intelligence agencies (CIA, NSA, etc.) so that they aren't keeping secrets from each other like they do now (they should be working together, not against each other).

Avatar28
2004-Dec-17, 05:33 PM
I believe that some of that is to be addressed with the Intelligence overhaul bill that the President signed today (or was it yesterday?).

archman
2004-Dec-17, 11:19 PM
We also have 250 million+ citizens, and a global presence. That explains a great deal of the "complication". Most experts argue its not the number of agencies that's the problem, or the overlap, but information sharing. If we can get a standardized series of data systems in place, efficiency will improve tremendously.

LunarOrbit
2004-Dec-17, 11:50 PM
But if your three (or more) federal law enforcement agencies were merged together into one agency sharing information would be easy because it would all be in one place. There also wouldn't be any rivalries between agencies.

I don't know... it just seems more efficient to have fewer agencies. And that's just the law enforcement... what is the difference between the army and the marines? Or the CIA and the NSA? They seem to have similar roles, so why not merge them together?

beck0311
2004-Dec-18, 12:13 AM
what is the difference between the army and the marines?

The Army is the large military organization tasked with waging, and winning, land warfare. The Marine Corps is a small relatively light force that belongs to the Navy. Its role is to provide another option for force projection ashore for Naval commanders. It generally operates for short periods of time and it is supposed to be mobile enough to be able to be deployed from ships. The Marines and the Army have distinct cultures and goals, but they actually work together quite effectively.

archman
2004-Dec-18, 12:28 AM
I don't know... it just seems more efficient to have fewer agencies.
That would be true, if the agencies weren't as individually large as they are. Each of these single agencies rivals most other nations' intelligence/enforcement/whatever presence in sheer manpower. Even the "little" Secret Service has thousands of employees.

If these big agencies were combined, they would have to be subdivided anyway just for task management. Your end result would be the same, except for the "big boss" at the top. But even that difference has been addressed this week by the president.

Many of our state and federal "environmental-type" agencies are merged all the time, as their staff numbers tend to be tiny, directives change, and budgets get slashed.

The Coast Guard wasn't merged per se following 9/11, but transferred from one civilian department to another. Some people argue it should be incorporated directly into the Navy. Neither the Navy nor the Coast Guard want this to happen.

For curiousity's sake, how large is the RCMP?

beck0311
2004-Dec-18, 12:34 AM
Some people argue it should be incorporated directly into the Navy. Neither the Navy nor the Coast Guard want this to happen.

I don't know how it works now that the Coast Guard are part of DHS, but last I checked the Coast Guard could be swallowed up by the Department of the Navy during "times of war". But, yeah two very different agencies with different missions. Superficial similarities (like they both use boats) are not a good reason to merge two organizations, the smaller will undoubtedly be swallowed by the larger and the mission would suffer.

mike alexander
2004-Dec-18, 12:56 AM
One of the emergent properties of size seems to be complexity. As a very rough guess, ten times the size means ten times the complexity. Actually, I bet it's more.

Like plants or animals. A grass plant can have just a few leaves, but a tree has branching ramifications as a result of its larger size.

Van Rijn
2004-Dec-18, 01:14 AM
On one hand, competing bureaucracy and limited communication are probably part of the reason 9/11 happened (the decline of the CIA didn't help either). Certainly there have been a number of government moves lately to better coordinate and centralize the many U.S. intelligence and police agencies. On the other hand, there is a certain logic in not wanting them to be TOO well coordinated. And, the CIA and FBI were deliberately given different scopes of operation because we didn't want the same group spying on other countries and acting as a police force in our country. 9/11 definitely altered our attitude on the subject. There is always the old, old debate between security and freedom ...

Moose
2004-Dec-18, 01:28 AM
For curiousity's sake, how large is the RCMP?

Straight from the Mountie's mouth: (http://www.rcmp.gc.ca/html/organi_e.htm)


The on-strength establishment of the Force as of April 4, 2004, was 22,239. A breakdown of these positions by rank and category is shown below.

ACTUAL STRENGTH

* Commissioner 1
* Deputy Commissioners 6
* Assistant Commissioners 27
* Chief Superintendents 58
* Superintendents 139
* Inspectors 333
* Corps Sergeant Major 1
* Sergeant Major 7
* Staff Sergeant Major 1
* Staff Sergeants 752
* Sergeants 1,606
* Corporals 2,846
* Constables 10,028
* Other regular members 4
* Civilian Members 2,611
* Public Servants 4,052
* Total 22,472


I do have to admit that I'm kind of curious as to what "other regular members 4" means.

robbiestewart
2011-Dec-21, 05:59 PM
The United States does have quite a few different law enforcement agencies at the federal level, but their jurisdiction is limited to a specific agency or department of the United States government and they do not normally handle police services at the local city or state level, like the RCMP does in the 8 Providences and 3 Territories in Canada. The reason that The United States does not have a federal police force like that RCMP that handles this responsibility is because The United States Constitution has separation of powers clauses that says that the federal government has specific rights and responsibilities, while the state and local governments have the rest. This is mostly covered by the Second Amendment of The United States Constitution. Also Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prohibits the use of the federal military in local police services.

For more information see the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers_under_the_United_States_Const itution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_law_enforcement_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States

tashirosgt
2011-Dec-22, 01:50 AM
But if your three (or more) federal law enforcement agencies were merged together into one agency sharing information would be easy because it would all be in one place. There also wouldn't be any rivalries between agencies.


Having worked for the US government, my opinion is that rivalries between agencies would merely be replaced by rivalries within the single agency.

An aspect of US culture is that many citizens distrust monolithic centralized centers of powers. That's how they would visualize a single centralized national law enforcement agency.

Gillianren
2011-Dec-22, 02:00 AM
As a heads up, this is seven years' thread necromancy.

I actually grew up in one of those municipalities which contracts with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office for its law enforcement. Technically, my home town is "Unincorporated Los Angeles County." The post office thinks it's a real town, but the county does not. I shudder to think what would happen if Altadena were allowed its own law enforcement agency, given that it has six privately owned water companies scattered around town.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2011-Dec-22, 11:50 AM
Another one of my zombie posts....mine seem to do that a lot...maybe just cuz I look for them. I don't even know why I cared about the question at the time. Strange where my interests go.

Strange
2011-Dec-22, 01:00 PM
I shudder to think what would happen if Altadena were allowed its own law enforcement agency, given that it has six privately owned water companies scattered around town.

Water companies, detectives, ... That gives me an idea for a movie. This could be big.

Jim
2011-Dec-22, 01:06 PM
... An aspect of US culture is that many citizens distrust monolithic centralized centers of powers. That's how they would visualize a single centralized national law enforcement agency.

I have no problem with a single, monolithic, all-powerful national police agency. As long as I'm in charge of it.


... I don't even know why I cared about the question at the time. Strange where my interests go.

Are you sure you weren't contemplating insurrection?

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2011-Dec-22, 02:04 PM
the Trek movie? nope...mediocre movie though

MAPNUT
2011-Dec-22, 04:00 PM
Hey, long ago this topic was about mounted police. New York City does have mounted police. They're good for high visibility. I've often seen them on duty, at parades and such, but never heard of them being in serious action.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2011-Dec-22, 05:08 PM
you do know what the RCMP is...right? AS kids we used to say raw carrots and mashed potatoes (having a Quayle moment with my spelling- is that with an e? or no?)...

PetersCreek
2011-Dec-22, 06:28 PM
The United States Constitution has separation of powers clauses that says that the federal government has specific rights and responsibilities, while the state and local governments have the rest. This is mostly covered by the Second Amendment of The United States Constitution.

While the separate powers are largely specified in Articles I through IV of the Constitution, I think you meant to refer to Amendment X (rather than II) which states that powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government by the Consitution are reserved for the states or the people.

mike alexander
2011-Dec-25, 04:45 PM
The USA does not need the RCMP, as e have Chuck Norris.

Gillianren
2011-Dec-25, 07:48 PM
I have never understood the Chuck Norris thing. I mean, Christopher Walken is standing right there, being way cooler.

HenrikOlsen
2011-Dec-25, 08:11 PM
Way better dancer too.

danscope
2011-Dec-25, 08:15 PM
As I understand it, Canadian provinces have ' dominion police ' which enjoy that distinction, jurisdiction within that province. Where as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) have a jurisdiction throughout all of Canada.
The Mounties are some of the best dressed police anywhere.

Dan

robbiestewart
2012-Sep-25, 07:29 AM
While the separate powers are largely specified in Articles I through IV of the Constitution, I think you meant to refer to Amendment X (rather than II) which states that powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government by the Consitution are reserved for the states or the people.

Yes, you can make that assumption, however, if you read the first nine amendments, you will see that amendment x is a consolidation of the other nine and the earlier Articles of Confederation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Confederation

LookingSkyward
2012-Sep-26, 10:00 AM
A double zombie thread... although this necromancy is nowhere near as impressive as the fisrt :>

grapes
2012-Sep-26, 10:22 AM
Both were by the same poster though, their only posts. I wonder how they found CosmoQuest, probably the same way they found us the first time. :)

swampyankee
2012-Sep-27, 12:47 AM
I don't know how it works now that the Coast Guard are part of DHS, but last I checked the Coast Guard could be swallowed up by the Department of the Navy during "times of war". But, yeah two very different agencies with different missions. Superficial similarities (like they both use boats) are not a good reason to merge two organizations, the smaller will undoubtedly be swallowed by the larger and the mission would suffer.

Many of the things that are propose for efficiency, like merging the Coast Guard and the Navy have been tried in the past, with the Coast Guard's predecessor, the Revenue Marine, and the Navy. It was not a rousing success. A number of countries have found the same thing out, with several, such as Norway, creating a Coast Guard (Kystvakten) in 1977.

mike alexander
2012-Sep-29, 06:45 AM
I always watched Sgt. Preston of the Mounties as a child, and liked the short snippet of theme - very rousing.

Fifty years later I found the music is a bit from the overture to Donna Diana by von Resniczek.