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Noclevername
2014-May-04, 12:02 PM
Is it too early to start talking about it?

Just in case it's not, I'm starting a place to do so. So...
How about that new Star Wars movie, huh? :D

(Also, quote of the day: "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians [...]." ―George Lucas in 1988)

Shaula
2014-May-04, 12:15 PM
It has Ming the Merciless in it. I'm hoping for the most awesome crossover ever.

"Luke ..aaaaah, he saved every one of us"
(laighs at the Stormtroopers) "Dive!"
"Luke, Luke I love you but we only have 14 hours to save Endor"

Oh yeah.

Noclevername
2014-May-04, 12:32 PM
It has Ming the Merciless in it. I'm hoping for the most awesome crossover ever.

"Luke ..aaaaah, he saved every one of us"
(laighs at the Stormtroopers) "Dive!"
"Luke, Luke I love you but we only have 14 hours to save Endor"

Oh yeah.

That would be awesome. We need Brian Blessed in Star Wars!

Shaula
2014-May-04, 12:49 PM
That would be awesome. We need Brian Blessed in Star Wars!
He could be Chewbacca's father. No costume required.

publiusr
2014-May-04, 06:44 PM
That would be awesome. We need Brian Blessed in Star Wars!
So how is Vultan doing these days? Still married to Peri ;)

Looks like they might be kicking the so called expanded universe to the curb..oh well.

Now if I remember Coruscant has only one bare spot of the planet not covered in skyscrapers. I can see Han and Leia, older now, allowed to build a small hovel there, having lost a son say. Han is trying to clean his blaster, which falls to pieces, and Luke visits them.

After he leaves, he hears blaster fire, only to return and see two charred skeletons.

"No, not again..."

SeanF
2014-May-05, 06:08 PM
That would be awesome. We need Brian Blessed in Star Wars!
With no smiley in your post, I can't tell if you know what you're doing or not.

redshifter
2014-May-05, 07:25 PM
I'm expecting JJ Abrams to disappoint me with the new Star Wars movie; just as he did with the latest Star Trek movie.

jokergirl
2014-May-06, 05:51 PM
Luke! I am... you! From a different timeline!

Jokes aside, they also cast Andy Serkis. I expect at least one CGI alien sidekick.

;)

iquestor
2014-May-06, 06:03 PM
I once saw online a synopsis of episodes 7, 8 and 9 that Lucas had supposedly shared with Mark Hamil and other casts during the original discussions.

in these synopsese of 7,8 and 9 ( I cant find them anymore) the eviscerated hand of Darth Vader is stolen by some cult and cloned into an army, throwing off once again the balance of the force. terror ensues.
then, the hand of luke skywalker is stolen by another group, and is used to clone its own army to combat them, battle ensues.
the series ends with the bad guys being sent into a black hole.
Oh yeah, there were some light saber duels.

Anyone heard or read these?

NEOWatcher
2014-May-06, 06:33 PM
Anyone heard or read these?
From what I can find, it's fan fiction.
I found this storyline (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/swarsep7/) in several places with some refering to it as fan fiction.

I lost interest starting with "the Dark Jedi invade wearing jet packs".

Swift
2014-May-07, 01:01 PM
I'm expecting JJ Abrams to disappoint me with the new Star Wars movie; just as he did with the latest Star Trek movie.
Exactly my thought. I am completely unexcited about this entire thing.

parallaxicality
2014-May-07, 05:04 PM
Brian Blessed was in Star Wars. He played Boss Nass in The Phantom Menace.

iquestor
2014-May-07, 05:22 PM
From what I can find, it's fan fiction.
I found this storyline (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/swarsep7/) in several places with some refering to it as fan fiction.

I lost interest starting with "the Dark Jedi invade wearing jet packs".


which they wore on their backs, it went on to say. LOL!!!!

iquestor
2014-May-07, 05:23 PM
Exactly my thought. I am completely unexcited about this entire thing.

I actually rather enjoyed Abrams' Star Trek.

Amber Robot
2014-May-07, 05:27 PM
All I can say is that the bar has been set low by the prequels. The fact that Lawrence Kasdan has helped write the script is at least some kind of good sign. Also, the action and theatrics that JJ Abrams put in the new Star Trek movie (I only saw the first one) would actually do better in a Star Wars movie, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. However, having the old actors in anything more than cameos, in which they hand the torch off to younger actors, might be a turn off.

Noclevername
2014-May-07, 06:53 PM
Brian Blessed was in Star Wars. He played Boss Nass in The Phantom Menace.

More BB, I should have said. :doh:

parallaxicality
2014-May-07, 08:47 PM
More BB, I should have said. :doh:

OK... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxkGIpmrYJo)

Here ya go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-yEOLRhO5g)

This is funny too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu_uZjPIIe0)

Noclevername
2014-May-07, 09:31 PM
OK... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxkGIpmrYJo)

Here ya go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-yEOLRhO5g)

This is funny too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu_uZjPIIe0)

Odd, none of those look like a new Star Wars movie. :)

parallaxicality
2014-May-07, 09:32 PM
True, but you can't ask for more Brian Blessed.

HenrikOlsen
2014-May-08, 08:51 PM
True, but you can't ask for more Brian Blessed.
I get to differ:

More Brian Blessed, please.

See, entirely possible.

Noclevername
2014-May-08, 10:02 PM
It has Ming the Merciless in it.

Many Bothans died to bring us this information.

KaiYeves
2014-May-08, 11:37 PM
The phrasing of the thread title (actually just the "maybe?" at the end) cause me to hear "Call Me Maybe" in my head every time I see it in the New Posts listing...

Noclevername
2014-May-09, 09:08 AM
Heard a good SW joke yesterday: "Mark Hamill says he's really excited about the new Star Wars cast, but he's probably just being a joker."

Launch window
2015-Dec-18, 07:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q2uzIv4nhg

SeanF
2015-Dec-18, 02:58 PM
So, could a moderator please edit the title of this thread to reflect that spoilers are now a "definite" and not a "maybe"?

Thank you. :)

iquestor
2015-Dec-18, 03:55 PM
I saw it last night. It was fantastic.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-19, 02:10 AM
I saw it today, and I agree, it was good. It got the bad taste of the Second Trilogy out of my mind.

I'm not going to spoil the plot, just go see it.

ABR.
2015-Dec-19, 06:07 AM
The "meh" was strong with this one. My wife and I expected to be disappointed, especially with the hype. We did not expect to be bored. The kids didn't seem impressed either. YMMV.

parallaxicality
2015-Dec-19, 10:22 AM
I must now wander the dark roads of the Lost who stared into the light of the awakening of the Force and saw "meh", while everyone else basks enraptured in its radiance.

publiusr
2015-Dec-19, 07:25 PM
It is a Star Wars film after all. Somehow, that's actually what surprised me.

I don't know why--but I was surprised at the opening scene of the words trailing out in back--every film has done that. I guess I've seen so many remakes and what not--that I was expecting something more sedate--with very brief cameos. JJ made this feel different from Trek--and best of all--he had his Bad Robot racing through the grass at the very end of the film.

Loved the new Star Destroyer.

SPOILERS!!!



As far as the main spoiler about a certain death. I saw that coming with the bridge. You knew that wasn't going to be good. Now Star Wars fans know what us trekkies felt back at the end of STII: TWOK.

But that hit harder--at the end of the film. No time for bagpipes here--although they did give us a Genesis moment with the Starkiller base turning into a replacement sun--despite the size disparity. The beloved character is now sunlight.

I don't think we'll see his ghost at the end of this trilogy. Lucus would just have the original cast go off into the sunset--sort of like how ST The Undiscovered Country ended. I would have taken that, however.

More sad to me--they killed off E!'s The Soup!

Is nothing sacred? Now this too? That's okay--now that Joel McHale is free, he'll be the new Jedi master---Dunka Dubawl.

Now for a real spoiler. Here is where my force sensitivity may shine a bit--I've been wrong of course--thinking Vengeance would have been called Excelsior--but I wasn't too far off. I thought Matt Smith would lose his Tardis--and it did blow up--so I'm still near the target.

About a quote from another website:

"It occurs to me that- considering they supposedly tossed the Expanded Universe- TFA borrows heavily from it!"

Kylo instead of Jacen, yes...

But it is more than that.

POSSIBLE ADVANCED SPOILER------------

Remember the anchorites?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_wielder

Here is what I am thinking.

Luke is Snoke. (Sounds like something from Harry Pothead, I know)

He is also Skywalker.

Remember, his father was to bring **balance** to the force.

Luke must do this now--to train both Jedi AND Sith--to become like another Father:
http://www.starwars.com/databank/father

But it backfires.

Evolutionary conflict must go on--to prepare for something worse?

I've often thought the Vong were like entities from the Far Realm in AD&D--atheists of a type.

"For all the evil the enemy do, they aren't dark, exactly—the enemy are entirely outside the Force."
―Jacen Solo (now Kylo)

We are seeing some of the EU in a different form.

Perhaps we go from The Hero with a Thousand Faces to JLB.

Here is what might be a horrible secret even the Jedi might hide.

The real hero in Star Wars wasn't Anakin, as Lucas wanted.

It was Emperor.

With this vast military Empire in place, the Star Wars Galaxy is at last ready to face the Vong--the real enemy of the Force.

---Luke had to step into Palpatine's role after all.

Shades of Borges'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Versions_of_Judas

This is why Luke lost himself--a truth so ugly as to drive a man to leave his friends--he must.

Remember, Snope called Kylo home right as Luke was about to get company.

The sleeper (I mean the force) has awakened

The Anchorites are reborn.

And it was a sandworm that ate that TIE. ;)

I loved Maz--my favorite character.

I rather like Phasma as well, who got her name from the 1979 movie Phantasm.
I wonder if her reflective armor will bounce off laser blasts)

As much as a love Gwendoline Christie--who should continue to voice the character--if the helmet ever comes off, we should see...Camille Paglia!

Noclevername
2015-Dec-19, 09:28 PM
The "meh" was strong with this one. My wife and I expected to be disappointed, especially with the hype. We did not expect to be bored. The kids didn't seem impressed either. YMMV.


I must now wander the dark roads of the Lost who stared into the light of the awakening of the Force and saw "meh", while everyone else basks enraptured in its radiance.

It wasn't all bad, was it? Some of it was ...good.

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-19, 10:40 PM
My impression may have been clouded by the buffon next to me (middle aged guy (like me) but who came alone) who checked his phone 3 flipping times during the movie. Sound off, but still a bright screen distracting me. This is why I don't go to the movies very often. Hell is other people.

Anyway: I spent so much of the movie thinking "oh, that's just like 'Star Wars'" that I was distracting myself too. It's like someone said "the prequels disappointed most people, so make this like the first movies" - and someone took that too literally.

(What's the BBCode for "spoiler"? In other words: SPOILERS ...)



So much of the plot was just the same as Episodes IV to VI - but bigger, it just felt a bit samey. The Obi-wan style hide the message in the droid on the desert planet bit (yes, via someone this time), just had me wondering if they'd run out of ideas.
Oh great, another Death Star, but bigger. (Implausible ability to travel replaced by implausible ability to shoot across the Galaxy). Complete with a combination of the same old disable the protection and shoot the one weakness solutions.
Yay, a cantina scene complete with wacky (to us) alien band.
Even the Jedi who turned against the other Jedi, to be the almost-big-bad, is a big re-hash. His wanna-be-Darth-Vaderishness is almost an ironic in-joke.

With Star Wars (IV), I didn't need to know who the Emperor was, it was just all events happening in the middle of some epic war. This time around, I was really annoyed by the "first order". Having seen "Return of the Jedi" *2; being pretty much all the way back around to (sort of) rebels still fighting (sort of) the Empire was jarring to me. Where did this First Order come from? Who's their boss? etc. I think they wanted to avoid boring exposition and back-story *1 and get straight to the action, but some more "filler" would have been good here. (Was I supposed to watch some cartoon series set between VI and VII ?)

(*1 have you seen the Simpons episode where they are watching a prequel, and an AT-AT breaks into the council chamber, bored Bart gets excited in anticipation - and then the AT-AT sits down, puts on giant glasses and starts reading something? Fair point, but still ...)
(*2 speaking of this, if Espisode VI was called "Return of the Jedi", why wasn't this one called "They went away again"? I really got more of that than any "Awakens" from this movie ... and ... the "Awakening" bit was also more samey stuff from original Star Wars. A person stuck on a desert planet who discover s/he has the force ...)

Even the text at the start of the movie annoyed me. It seemed very contrived; why can that script we read tell us so much but skip so many details? I understand the movie-making reason - let the viewer be surprised by certain reveals during the movie, but it jars with me. The parts of early history that characters in the new movie knew from the previous movies (and what was considered "myth" vs. what was considered "real") also seemed a little inconsistent to me.

Why can the storm trooper decide to leave the First Order because he doesn't want to kill (innocent civilians) and almost immediately mow down many of his very-recently brothers-in-arms during his escape? Edit a few days later: I've thought about this more, and it annoys me even more now. Having a stormtrooper as a character was pretty much the most significant new thing in the movie. New robots and new versions of the X-Wing are not significant story elements. A stormtrooper who is not just a faceless enemy is significant. That he then turned around and treated the other troopers as faceless enemies seemed to throw a lot of that away. End edit.

The whole Han Solo gets back the Falcon bit was way over the top. He had a new freighter big enough to capture the Falcon, and that's all the crew he needs? And that's all he was carrying? The animals that escaped and ate his attackers (creditors) were utterly gratuitous. ... and again, reminiscent of something (the giant snake in an asteroid they landed the Falcon in, earlier).


Visually all stunning. I especially loved the crashed hulk of the Star Destroyer in the desert. (I just didn't like the Falcon being able to fly around and through it like a fighter.) It's the first time I've ever been impressed by the 3D (I accidentally saw a 3D cut of "Avatar" and didn't get a single thing more than the 2D version I'd seen earlier). Unlike the prequels, I saw very few spaceship or people movements that jarred (I can "accept" that they fly like they're always in an atmosphere). There were CGI bits in the prequels that looked like really bad video games.


Overall I'm glad I saw it, and it was good, but I didn't come out of it thinking "wow" the way I did with the original Star Wars. It's true I was 8 then, but I've seen movies as an adult that impacted me more. e.g. The first Chronicles of Riddick movie impressed me more.

7/10.

parallaxicality
2015-Dec-20, 12:52 AM
I didn't have the energy to post a review but yeah, what you said.

SeanF
2015-Dec-20, 03:05 AM
Did anyone notice that there was only the one word of dialog in the one scene that let us know that Han and Leia named their son "Ben"? I thought that was a nice touch, and also appreciated that the movie didn't make a big deal out of it.


Also, I had asked this in an earlier post, but I'll do it again since it hasn't happened yet - would a moderator please update the thread title to indicate that this thread definitely contains spoilers, not "maybe"?

antoniseb
2015-Dec-20, 03:12 AM
I saw the movie and liked it. One thing that bugged me was how the rings around the rebel base world had so many large jagged pieces, and were way inside the Roche limit... but didn't seem to be falling in to the planet.

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-20, 03:50 AM
I saw the movie and liked it. One thing that bugged me was how the rings around the rebel base world had so many large jagged pieces, and were way inside the Roche limit... but didn't seem to be falling in to the planet.

The first trailer I saw last night was for the new Dinsosaur movie (cartoon), that posits them not being wiped out. It started with an image of a rock being knocked out of a ring, and heading inwards. I thought Star Wars had started.

SeanF
2015-Dec-20, 01:21 PM
This should really go in the "Read that Again?" thread, but because it contains a spoiler for "The Force Awakens," I'm going to put it in here instead.

IMDB's "Goofs" page for "The Force Awakens" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/goofs?ref_=tttrv_sa_1) currently contains the following entry:


Character error: Kylo Ren refers to Darth Vader as his grandfather, when in actuality if he's Han and Leia's son, then Luke Skywalker would be his uncle, which means Vader would be his great uncle, not his grandfather.

I've already submitted a correction. Who thinks their mother's father is not their grandfather?

Glom
2015-Dec-21, 01:01 AM
Yay!

Really pleased. Not a perfect movie by any means, but very good.

The good
BB-8
The use of real props, sets and locations made it feel much more real than the prequels.
The exception to the reality was the Maz Kanata character who was CG, but I liked the character and it was okay to be CG because elsewhere it was used sensibly. I hope she survived and we see her again.
The action scenes were good because they weren't overdone. Not too long or too cluttered.
The use of dialogue that actually sounds like it comes from human beings made it feel much more real than the prequels.
I particularly liked Kylo Ren. He had an awesome force claw. And he was crazy with that light sabre.
The use of the original trilogy characters in a way that actually was somewhat sensible made it feel much more real than the prequels.
It was kind of neat learning more about life as a storm trooper.
There is literally nothing from the prequels.
BB-8

The bad
Wray learns to use the force a bit quickly.
Abrams takes an even bigger dump on astronomy than he did in the Trek reboot.
Taking down the shield on the death star is a simple as pointing a gun at a somewhat high ranking storm trooper and getting her to operate some controls in an empty room.
Snoke was kind of dumb looking.

The ugly
Carrie Fisher has not aged nearly as well as Mark Hamill or Harrison Ford. Those two look old, but not like a little old granny.

grapes
2015-Dec-21, 06:23 PM
This should really go in the "Read that Again?" thread, but because it contains a spoiler for "The Force Awakens," I'm going to put it in here instead.

IMDB's "Goofs" page for "The Force Awakens" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/goofs?ref_=tttrv_sa_1) currently contains the following entry:


Character error: Kylo Ren refers to Darth Vader as his grandfather, when in actuality if he's Han and Leia's son, then Luke Skywalker would be his uncle, which means Vader would be his great uncle, not his grandfather.

I've already submitted a correction. Who thinks their mother's father is not their grandfather?
Crazy!

And, it doesn't seem to be there anymore. Not even in the "Incorrectly regarded as goofs" category

SeanF
2015-Dec-21, 09:26 PM
And, it doesn't seem to be there anymore. Not even in the "Incorrectly regarded as goofs" category
Well, it shouldn't be, really. "Incorrectly regarded..." should be for things that might reasonably appear to be a mistake but actually have an explanation. This one didn't even come close to "reasonable."

I've been meaning to ask people - we weren't able to stay through the credits (late night, kids had school the next day), but is there a post-credits scene on this? It's not typical for "Star Wars," but its becoming more typical with genre movies in general these days...

Noclevername
2015-Dec-21, 10:58 PM
Carrie Fisher has not aged nearly as well as Mark Hamill or Harrison Ford. Those two look old, but not like a little old granny.

When nine hundred years old you reach, look as good you will not!

Mark Hamill was extensively refit for the movie. Without special effects, he looks older than Fisher and Ford put together.

crosscountry
2015-Dec-21, 11:28 PM
I had many of the same applause and complaints as others. The coincidence of finding the Millennium Falcon and immediately running into Han and Chewy was a bit much. Does the Force = Destiny? If so, these poor characters have no free will.

Containing an entire star's worth of energy in an even smaller oscillator is poorly thought out. The mass alone would crush the planet/death star. And to make that in 30 years? How long would the technology alone take to develop?


But I did love the visuals, and Kylo Ren being the whiny, anger prone grandchild of Darth Vader is quite plausible. “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

I like how Chewy was 1 for 5 shooting before Han's death but 5 for 5 after. Don't upset a Wookie.

What are Rey's origins?????

Noclevername
2015-Dec-21, 11:34 PM
I had many of the same applause and complaints as others. The coincidence of finding the Millennium Falcon and immediately running into Han and Chewy was a bit much. Does the Force = Destiny? If so, these poor characters have no free will.
Han & Chewie were actively searching for the Falcon, them finding it is no coincidence.


Containing an entire star's worth of energy in an even smaller oscillator is poorly thought out. The mass alone would crush the planet/death star. And to make that in 30 years? How long would the technology alone take to develop?

They used The Force? Technology in SW has always leaned towards the Science Fantasy.


What are Rey's origins?????
Something saved for the sequel.

Glom
2015-Dec-22, 01:00 AM
I'm supposing that once it was active and in space, it suddenly became more detectable. It's a bit of a reach but it's something.

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-22, 01:19 AM
Han & Chewie were actively searching for the Falcon, them finding it is no coincidence.

... but they were in the middle of delivering those gratuitous monsters.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-22, 01:35 AM
... but they were in the middle of delivering those gratuitous monsters.

He could have chosen a delivery route that took him near his goal.

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-22, 03:21 AM
He could have chosen a delivery route that took him near his goal.

Which implies he had some idea where it might be; and still leaves the coincidence that his delivery route wasn't too far off where it was.

Space is big.

blueshift
2015-Dec-22, 03:39 AM
We just saw it tonight. We didn't have any annoying cell phone addict in the audience that pzkpfw had the bad experience with but the theater had its own issues -- no running water to wash hands in the men's room, audio in the theater too loud.

As for the film? I got a little more than I expected. It was starting out to be a dreadful repeat of other SW films with not much unexpected until possibly the last 15 minutes. But my son enjoyed it a lot along with a lot of folks in the crowd. What should I expect out of Cub fans? Science? Imagination? They're fun anyway just the way they are.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-22, 08:40 AM
Which implies he had some idea where it might be; and still leaves the coincidence that his delivery route wasn't too far off where it was.

Space is big.

I assumed that all those years of searching allowed him to narrow it down quite a bit.

geonuc
2015-Dec-22, 10:51 AM
I've been meaning to ask people - we weren't able to stay through the credits (late night, kids had school the next day), but is there a post-credits scene on this? It's not typical for "Star Wars," but its becoming more typical with genre movies in general these days... No, nothing after the credits.

geonuc
2015-Dec-22, 10:57 AM
When the M Falcon returns to the rebel base after the big battle, Leia brushes past Chewbacca and gets into an extended grief-hug with the new girl over Han's death. The wookie gets no respect.

Glom
2015-Dec-22, 05:07 PM
When the M Falcon returns to the rebel base after the big battle, Leia brushes past Chewbacca and gets into an extended grief-hug with the new girl over Han's death. The wookie gets no respect.
Well he is just a big walking carpet who should be gotten out of her way.

crosscountry
2015-Dec-22, 05:37 PM
I assumed that all those years of searching allowed him to narrow it down quite a bit.

And be evading pursuit by not one but two debtors? also while transporting monsters from one location to another? BIG coincidence and heavy handed pandering to the audience.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-23, 07:19 AM
And be evading pursuit by not one but two debtors? also while transporting monsters from one location to another? BIG coincidence and heavy handed pandering to the audience.

I don't agree. I think he probably took on the debts and/or took on the monster job specifically because it brought him closer to his goal. Being cocky, he assumed that once he had the Falcon, he could then talk and/or fight his way out of anything. That's how Solo rolls.

grant hutchison
2015-Dec-23, 01:12 PM
I enjoyed it. First half-way decent "science fiction" film I've seen in years.
It set out to push some specific buttons, to nod to some iconic moments, and to subvert some other stuff. It did it all well, I think.
Recycling plot elements from the previous trilogy was clearly a calculated move rather than laziness, and I rather liked it. And implausible coincidences are just fine in what is essentially a fantasy dressed up in the clothes of SF.
Nicely portrayed heroine, I felt. I get tired of relentlessly [feisty and competent] female leads. Someone who is only intermittently [feisty and competent], and sometimes slightly surprised by her own [feisty competence] was nice to meet.

Grant Hutchison

korjik
2015-Dec-23, 06:02 PM
When the M Falcon returns to the rebel base after the big battle, Leia brushes past Chewbacca and gets into an extended grief-hug with the new girl over Han's death. The wookie gets no respect.

Well, one of the possibilities is that she went and comforted her daughter. In the flashback with the young Rey being abandonded, I believe the ship that was leaving was the same design as the one that Leia showed up in.

geonuc
2015-Dec-23, 08:13 PM
Well, one of the possibilities is that she went and comforted her daughter. In the flashback with the young Rey being abandonded, I believe the ship that was leaving was the same design as the one that Leia showed up in.
Interesting.

She still dissed the wookie.

jamesabrown
2015-Dec-23, 08:56 PM
She did in Episode IV, too. No medal for you, Chewie. Just stand over there and don't shed all over everything.

Glom
2015-Dec-24, 12:36 AM
Had more time to digest the movie. Really hope I get the chance to see it again.

I liked everything about Kylo Ren's part in the film. He was much more unstable than Darth Vader which made him scarier in a way. Of course he didn't have the gravitas, because he was a petulant teenager. Him getting angry and trashing rooms was neat. It wasn't clear if he was rescued in time to recur in future movies.

Enough cannot be said about how much better the climactic light sabre fight™ was compared to the prequels. It wasn't two hours long. It wasn't choreographed like it was a dance. It didn't involve ridiculous cartoon flipping. You actually got the sense of motivation for it to be happening as it went on. I know it was perhaps a little hokey how well both Finn and Rey fared, but consider that Kylo was injured and he was particularly emotionally distressed so was not going to be bringing his A game. And Finn still got wasted in the way that only main characters can be wasted, ie incapacitated with recoverable injuries. And the terror on his face as Kylo advanced at him gave this dual probably, more actual humanity than any dual so far.

I loved the ending, albeit the shot lingered a little long to the point that Rey holding out the light sabre for so long started to be comical. It was a great way to finish and a great hook.

And BB-8 was awesome. How great is it that this weird concept was done practically rather than just by CGI? I would say there should have been, more of it, but actually the judicious usage of BB-8 is probably a strength in of itself. Still how did it get up those stairs?

I think the fan service was actually kept in check. I have written about how much I hated Star Trek Into Darkness mainly due to its reliance on fan service as its only selling point so I'm certainly not someone who has much tolerance for such things, but I felt it was okay here. C-3PO's appearance was perhaps the shallowest one, but even that was okay and done with a bit of wit. It at least made sense unlike that godawful reveal from TPM that Anakin built it, which was just non-sensical. The only reference that really made me slightly groan was when Finn accidentally knocked on the claymation chess board on the Falcon. That felt unnecessary. But it was so small that it hardly matters and at least it makes sense.

The external plot about the even deathier death star was a bit hokey. But it's those bits I like that more than outshine the various hokey bits.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-24, 12:42 AM
Still how did it get up those stairs?

Well, we know it can shoot grappling hooks...

Amber Robot
2015-Dec-24, 05:19 PM
I saw the movie and liked it. One thing that bugged me was how the rings around the rebel base world had so many large jagged pieces, and were way inside the Roche limit... but didn't seem to be falling in to the planet.

If that is the one thing that bugged you worth mentioning then you really, really liked the movie.

Amber Robot
2015-Dec-24, 05:20 PM
Han & Chewie were actively searching for the Falcon, them finding it is no coincidence.


This was explained in the movie. Han most likely had a tracker on the ship that as soon as it was flown would lead him to it. And it's why Han said they'd go to Maz to get a "clean" ship.

Hokie
2015-Dec-27, 10:53 PM
Yay!


The bad
Wray learns to use the force a bit quickly.


The force runs strong in her family.
I have read that a officially licensed game Kylo Ren calls Rey cousin. So she is ether Luke's kid or there are some family we do not know about.

Glom
2015-Dec-28, 07:26 PM
She learns how to use it a bit quickly. Some have speculated that the mind rape gave the Force a jump start, a bit like when Scarlett Johannsen got some drugs in her abdomen and then that kicked off her ability to be one with the universe.

One of the things I liked about the movie was how they didn't make Rey of course a relation to Skywalker. It's fine for her to just be some other person who is strong with the Force. I don't think this ubermenschen approach is good. But what with the backstory mystery, it is sadly inevitable we'll have the I am Your Father™ moment. Well at least I can enjoy this film.

CJSF
2015-Dec-28, 08:48 PM
It has also been noted in a few places that being a Force adept doesn't automatically make one a good fencer/swordfighter/duelist. It's possible Finn's training as a Stormtrooper included fencing/kendo or something similar, and we already saw Rey's ability to use her staff. Having the Force augment that training (or perhaps even innate talent) could be a useful apologetic for the otherwise inexplicable swordsmanship.

CJSF

efanton
2015-Dec-28, 09:25 PM
Have to say very disappointing.
I didnt get to watch it on the big screen, nor in 3d, but I really dont think that would have made a difference.

Going back to the original three movies was a good move, but mimicking them was not what I was expecting. The story line seemed way too rushed, or was it that there really wasnt a true storyline just cameo scenes pasted together.

The original star wars were great because they had that fantastic blend of latest special effects, humour when it wasnt expected, and a simple but easily followed story line that was all action and adventure. Strikes me that this film failed on all three and missed a golden opportunity to develop a plot that was mostly left open ended by the original movies.

I watched the three originals again before watching this, expecting the plot to thicken and the special effects to get better. Disappointed on both counts.
Have to say I enjoyed re-watching the originals but lost interest in this latest film almost half way through.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-29, 02:11 AM
It has also been noted in a few places that being a Force adept doesn't automatically make one a good fencer/swordfighter/duelist. It's possible Finn's training as a Stormtrooper included fencing/kendo or something similar, and we already saw Rey's ability to use her staff. Having the Force augment that training (or perhaps even innate talent) could be a useful apologetic for the otherwise inexplicable swordsmanship.

There was another Stormtrooper using a tonfa-like stick weapon in a fight, so it seems likely Finn had that training as well.

Solfe
2015-Dec-29, 03:14 AM
I really enjoyed it.

The highlights for me:
Two minutes of no dialog at the end, just like every other Star Wars movie. Nice touch.
Carrie Fisher. Looks good, takes crap for no good reason.
Fin gets slugged hard and stays down. Very realistic, but I would have liked to see him stand up again. Oh, well.
Han getting tricked. Or not tricked. I suspect he knew what would happen, he seemed rather incredulous during the conversation. I was expecting him to say "This is too easy". Maybe that was the point.
Kylo Ren isn't a Jedi or Sith, making for a wacky sabre. I also like that some Stormtroopers have weapons for use against light sabres.

General guesses and observations:
Why do I get the feeling Snook is about 3 feet tall?
R2 is still an enigma. He might have made the map but why? I like that we don't know why and how he operates. A brilliant possibility is that R2 is a loyal to the government of Naboo and Padme after all this time. He's protecting Padme's family, but has to pick and choose which one at which time. He's a soldier with a serious oath of allegiance.
Fin is an interesting character as he was a sanitation worker converted to soldier. Funny how actual training sticks with him, but programming fails right away. No one seems terribly surprised by Stormtroopers "wash out", but I got the feeling that if that it'd be bad for Fin if he kept resisting.
Kylo Ren may have prosthetic legs or entire lower torso. He gets shot in the thigh and gets up. Then he gets his leg swept by a lightsabre. Likely artificial, as he kept hammering his waist when he needed to move. He's lucky Chewie didn't blow him right off the bridge with that gun, fake legs or not.

CJSF
2015-Dec-29, 02:51 PM
I was having trouble understanding Finn's character. I thought that he said they were programmed since birth/early childhood? Then how was he a sanitation worker? For a programmed soldier, once he broke from his conditioning, he seemed VERY normal.

CJSF

Solfe
2015-Dec-29, 03:13 PM
I was having trouble understanding Finn's character. I thought that he said they were programmed since birth/early childhood? Then how was he a sanitation worker? For a programmed soldier, once he broke from his conditioning, he seemed VERY normal.

CJSF

I am not sure what they meant by programming, either. He clearly believes the First Order is superior to everyone else, but that made him want to run away, not stay. He certainly knows how to fight, but that doesn't make a good stormtrooper. He also wants to latch onto people, which might have been part of the programing running wild.

The First Order has a big propaganda machine but many of the characters are completely aware of the fact that it is not really a good method of doing anything. Stormtroopers ignoring superiors, leaders knowing troopers aren't always loyal, etc.

I want to think that the First Order programs people to have skills and assumes that this will make people subservient to the Order. No wonder why they have a rebellion and a problem with leadership.

Solfe
2015-Dec-29, 03:21 PM
Fin getting blood on his face right away was an interesting ploy. It served as "color-coded for you convenience" but it was also a tip off that he had sympathies for his fellow tropers. (See what I did there, Clever?)

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-29, 09:37 PM
My Father did his national service (Netherlands) and went through basic training, learning how to handle a firearm military style and all that, then ended up a mechanic in a mobile hospital unit. Armies need plenty of people to do the non-combat stuff. (Support troop to combat troop ratios over time is an interesting side topic). That Fin was a Stormtrooper sanitation worker was one thing that didn't bug me in that movie.

Stormtroopers are no longer clones; I figured that must mean something. (If anything, I wondered how many Stormtroopers go the Fin way. The early conversation about him between the superiors made it seem not unheard of.)

CJSF
2015-Dec-29, 09:49 PM
But the implication was that they were taken from families as babies (or at least very young) and raised together and "programmed" as soldiers. Obviously there must still be some instruction on "right and wrong" and kindness and moral judgements. Even if you accept that these are innate qualities a person has, I think they would have expressed themselves much differently than Finn's character did.

CJSF

Solfe
2015-Dec-30, 03:08 AM
Maybe Fin is running BSD by mistake. Or programing means something different in Star Wars. :)

Noclevername
2015-Dec-30, 03:18 AM
Maybe Fin is running BSD by mistake. Or programing means something different in Star Wars. :)

Brainwashing and conditioning are referred to as programming. So programming means something different [from computer programming] in the real world, too.

Solfe
2015-Dec-30, 03:40 PM
I don't know. I think I will ignore the fact they mentioned programing. It didn't seem workable.

If all they did was wire him with skills, exactly what were they expecting to get? That doesn't make sense, unless they think the propaganda would fill in the gap. That didn't work at all because clearly he was afraid of the propaganda.

If they meant to have a killing machine, they didn't just fail, they botched it entirely. Fin stinks at killing people. I don't understand why the Order let him keep breathing.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-30, 03:56 PM
I don't know. I think I will ignore the fact they mentioned programing. It didn't seem workable.

If all they did was wire him with skills, exactly what were they expecting to get? That doesn't make sense, unless they think the propaganda would fill in the gap. That didn't work at all because clearly he was afraid of the propaganda.

If they meant to have a killing machine, they didn't just fail, they botched it entirely. Fin stinks at killing people. I don't understand why the Order let him keep breathing.

If he was just "a killing machine" he would have made a poor sanitation engineer. Clearly they trained their troopers with a wider range of skills and knowledge. People, even people raised as soldiers by a military government, have to be functional and have human judgment. Otherwise they'd just go back to battle droids.

A killing machine with a bad upbringing would be psychologically unstable, emotionally unpredictable, and a very poor soldier.

crosscountry
2015-Dec-30, 05:13 PM
A killing machine with a bad upbringing would be psychologically unstable, emotionally unpredictable, and a very poor soldier.

Are we talking about Kylo Ren again?

Noclevername
2015-Dec-30, 05:23 PM
Are we talking about Kylo Ren again?

I thought he was a whining and trashing rooms machine.

pzkpfw
2015-Dec-30, 10:39 PM
The Zev / 790 take on programming was much more fun.

novaderrik
2015-Dec-31, 07:44 AM
I don't know. I think I will ignore the fact they mentioned programing. It didn't seem workable.

If all they did was wire him with skills, exactly what were they expecting to get? That doesn't make sense, unless they think the propaganda would fill in the gap. That didn't work at all because clearly he was afraid of the propaganda.

If they meant to have a killing machine, they didn't just fail, they botched it entirely. Fin stinks at killing people. I don't understand why the Order let him keep breathing.

maybe his defecting was a part of the master plan... the new bad guy (snape... snope... whatever, i forget his name... the big hologram guy that's probably actually 2 feet tall) might be manipulating things via the force and by strategically planting people just like Papa Palpatine did a couple of generations earlier. this would explain why the officers were so casual about how spectacularly useless he was on his first mission and why they let him break out the pilot guy and get away and also why Kylo Ren didn't just chop him in half and move on when they met in their light saber duel..

Noclevername
2015-Dec-31, 08:56 AM
maybe his defecting was a part of the master plan... the new bad guy (snape... snope... whatever, i forget his name... the big hologram guy that's probably actually 2 feet tall) might be manipulating things via the force and by strategically planting people just like Papa Palpatine did a couple of generations earlier. this would explain why the officers were so casual about how spectacularly useless he was on his first mission and why they let him break out the pilot guy and get away and also why Kylo Ren didn't just chop him in half and move on when they met in their light saber duel..

I doubt the Bad Guy Order is that subtle. It doesn't fit with what we've seen of them. I think the new Stormtroopers just have discipline problems just like any real, non-cloned army. Even the Janissaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries) had such difficulties, and they too were taken as small children and raised from birth to be fanatical warriors.

Amber Robot
2015-Dec-31, 06:09 PM
maybe his defecting was a part of the master plan... the new bad guy (snape... snope... whatever, i forget his name... the big hologram guy that's probably actually 2 feet tall) might be manipulating things via the force and by strategically planting people just like Papa Palpatine did a couple of generations earlier. this would explain why the officers were so casual about how spectacularly useless he was on his first mission and why they let him break out the pilot guy and get away and also why Kylo Ren didn't just chop him in half and move on when they met in their light saber duel..

Or maybe it's just poor writing. We won't know until we see the sequels and if they tie up all the loose ends and missing backstory from this movie. Considering what I've seen from JJ Abram's tv shows "Lost" and "Alias", it seems that he doesn't always think his stories through that well.

Noclevername
2015-Dec-31, 06:36 PM
Kylo Ben may not have had lightsaber training either. Just because he has The Force does not make him a Jedi or Sith.

crosscountry
2015-Dec-31, 07:05 PM
I thought he was a whining and trashing rooms machine.

"psychologically unstable, emotionally unpredictable"

Noclevername
2015-Dec-31, 07:12 PM
"psychologically unstable, emotionally unpredictable"

Yes, but there's a lot of ways to get to that description.

novaderrik
2015-Dec-31, 08:18 PM
Or maybe it's just poor writing. We won't know until we see the sequels and if they tie up all the loose ends and missing backstory from this movie. Considering what I've seen from JJ Abram's tv shows "Lost" and "Alias", it seems that he doesn't always think his stories through that well.

there is a whole lot more than just 2 more sequels... they are coming out with all sorts of movies- and maybe even a live action tv show or 10- that will fill in the gaps..

DonM435
2015-Dec-31, 09:50 PM
Does it still begin "A long time ago ..." or have they gotten all the way up to "Last Tuesday ..." by now?

Amber Robot
2015-Dec-31, 09:51 PM
there is a whole lot more than just 2 more sequels... they are coming out with all sorts of movies- and maybe even a live action tv show or 10- that will fill in the gaps..

Having experienced JJ's other shows, I won't hold my breath waiting for gaps to be filled in or plot elements explained.

Solfe
2015-Dec-31, 11:36 PM
Check out Very Lonely Luke on twitter. Two of my favorites:

I didn't fly here. Leia dropped me off. She said she had to run some errands and would be back in an hour. That was 20 years ago.

I taught Kylo Ren just like Yoda taught me: By making him give me piggyback rides everywhere. And that's why he turned to the Dark Side.

cosmocrazy
2016-Jan-01, 05:58 PM
I had many of the same applause and complaints as others. The coincidence of finding the Millennium Falcon and immediately running into Han and Chewy was a bit much. Does the Force = Destiny? If so, these poor characters have no free will.

Containing an entire star's worth of energy in an even smaller oscillator is poorly thought out. The mass alone would crush the planet/death star. And to make that in 30 years? How long would the technology alone take to develop?



One of the characteristics of the force is the ability to foresee the future, so complete free will may not be an option.

The movies are after all sci-fi- fairy tale westerns, so I don't worry about the accuracy of the science details. Star wars is based on a story about a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Their technology is way more advanced than ours, and very science fiction. But it is presented in a way that the layman could believe to be possible. This obviously appeals to the general audience, must appeal else the films would be flops.

I like the star wars trilogy because it is a fairy tale of good versus evil. Its got characteristics of a western, with the gun slinging cowboy style hero's and all the rough edges to go with. Then it has the wonder and mystery of Sci-fi integrated into a fairy tale story.

I enjoyed the new film very much, yes there were many repeat plots and situations from the original films but is that a bad thing? History has a habit of repeating itself in real life. I thought the new characters were spot on and liked how the original ones were cameo rather than leading. Again this keeps in touch with our real life experiences.

It would have been to easy for the writers to jumps straight in and give everything away in this one film. Cleverly it has opened up the story to continue forward for many more sequels that keep in touch with the original Star wars. This I would think will keep the majority of fans happy. Which make the movie companies lots more money in the process.

TJMac
2016-Jan-02, 06:04 PM
I enjoyed it. Enough to see it twice. First time in a very packed and enthusiastic theater, which included a lot of audience feedback. It was gloriously fun.

It is fantasy. I wasn't expecting a scientifically correct as we know it movie. Hello, faster than speed of light?

Im rather annoyed at people complaining how Carrie Fisher looks. Compare young Harrison Ford to now Harrison Ford. Sorry, the dude just looks old. I assume everyone making those comments is a VERY WELL preserved 59, and can criticize from that viewpoint.

Yes, it was similar to the orignal. Some minor twists and changes. I have no problem with that.

My biggest dislike was the 3rd Reich feel of the First Order. Just an opinion though.

I already know who I want Rey to be, but I have a feeling that I'm way off the mark. It is probably something more obvious. For the record... I want her to be Obi-Wans granddaghter, through some neat storyline twist.

As usual, YMMV.... which seems to be strongly the case here. :D

TJ

Noclevername
2016-Jan-03, 12:08 AM
One of the characteristics of the force is the ability to foresee the future, so complete free will may not be an option.

Yoda foresaw Luke losing if he left Dagobah, and the Jedi council said a son conceived by the Force would bring balance, so there's that. I think it foresees probable pathways, not certainty.

Solfe
2016-Jan-03, 01:11 AM
One of the characteristics of the force is the ability to foresee the future, so complete free will may not be an option.

Han Solo: ...I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

Oops.

Later, he gets better.

Finn: We'll use the Force!
Solo: That's not how the Force works, kid.

Solfe
2016-Jan-03, 01:17 AM
I have a Force Awakens Courtesy Embargo on facebook, except when it kicked off no one stipulated a deadline. Is 90 day from Jan 1 good?

Many of my friends saw it before me and didn't spoil it for me, I just want to do a good turn. Man, 90 days is a long time but is it really long enough? Anyone have a guess as to when movies tend to die down?

schlaugh
2016-Jan-03, 02:31 AM
Anyone have a guess as to when movies tend to die down?

When they start showing up on MTV? :)

Ninety days seems fair, especially with warnings about spoilers. Looks like The Force Awakens may be available to Netflix, et al, by April. (http://amazonadviser.com/2015/12/23/when-will-star-wars-the-force-awakens-be-on-blu-ray-and-dvd/) From the Amazon Adviser site link:


We are expecting Star Wars: The Force Awakens to be released digitally and through on-demand services in April 2016. With that predicted date, it would make sense that the Blu-Ray and DVD release of The Force Awakens would not be until May 2016.

Hokie
2016-Jan-03, 07:18 PM
Yoda foresaw Luke losing if he left Dagobah, and the Jedi council said a son conceived by the Force would bring balance, so there's that. I think it foresees probable pathways, not certainty.

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.- Yoda

ngc3314
2016-Jan-03, 11:16 PM
I can't help noticing how different the Star Wars galaxy's history would be if control of the Force would manifest itself only after angst-ridden adolescents have passed puberty. And with midichlorians, one could even finesse a biochemical reason.

CJSF
2016-Jan-04, 12:23 AM
Once the idiotic "midichlorian" aspect of the force was put forward, I just assumed that mean nanobots/nanites. If you think about it that way, The Force might be nothing more than technological relic from a previous civilization. Or maybe even doing the bidding of a still existing one.

CJSF

novaderrik
2016-Jan-04, 06:23 AM
Once the idiotic "midichlorian" aspect of the force was put forward, I just assumed that mean nanobots/nanites. If you think about it that way, The Force might be nothing more than technological relic from a previous civilization. Or maybe even doing the bidding of a still existing one.

CJSF

maybe it was something that Qui Gon Jin came up with to figure out how force sensitive someone was- the more force sensitive, the more of these things showed up in a scan. no one else seemed to put too much stock into it- i recall Yoda kind of doing a little eye roll or something similar the first time we see Qui Gon mention it in front of the council- so maybe it was just a tool that Qui Gon used..

or maybe it's something that they wedged into a movie to try to explain the force to a generation of movie goers raised on technology and scientific awareness and not so much into the spiritual and religious things that their parents were raised on, then thrown away after that movie due to the reaction from the fans...

Noclevername
2016-Jan-04, 06:42 AM
i recall Yoda kind of doing a little eye roll or something similar the first time we see Qui Gon mention it in front of the council-

That was the audience. We've had to recalibrate our clocks, because the Earth's rotation has been disturbed by the collective effect of so many eyes rolling at once.


or maybe it's something that they wedged into a movie to try to explain the force to a generation of movie goers raised on technology and scientific awareness and not so much into the spiritual and religious things that their parents were raised on, then thrown away after that movie due to the reaction from the fans...

But it's part of Lucas' Original Vision! Like Jar-Jar!

jokergirl
2016-Jan-04, 08:42 AM
I finally watched it and enjoyed it.

I had a few gripes with distances (how far the characters are apart/move/etc) being adjusted to fit the plot throughout the entire movie, which is a personal pet peeve. But that's a storytelling problem, not a plot hole. In general, likable characters, good space opera, and fun new stories to explore.
I didn't like the Reich references much either though. Especially not that they felt the need to tack on a salute so that the last person in the audience who hadn't gotten it yet would definitely get it. :rolleyes:

Noclevername
2016-Jan-04, 08:48 AM
I didn't like the Reich references much either though. Especially not that they felt the need to tack on a salute so that the last person in the audience who hadn't gotten it yet would definitely get it. :rolleyes:

The Empire has pretty consistently been based on the Roman Empire. It makes sense that an Imperial remnant would use a Roman-style salute, which is what the Nazi salute was derived from.

novaderrik
2016-Jan-04, 06:14 PM
That was the audience. We've had to recalibrate our clocks, because the Earth's rotation has been disturbed by the collective effect of so many eyes rolling at once.



But it's part of Lucas' Original Vision! Like Jar-Jar!

hey, the latest speculation is that Jar Jar was actually supposed to be the sith lord that was controlling everything.. and it's a theory that makes sense based on his actions in The Phantom Menace.. but Lucas dropped that idea after finding out how much people hated Jar Jar, and probably fearing for his life if the big reveal in the third prequel was that it was him manipulating things..

Glom
2016-Jan-06, 12:34 AM
That was the audience. We've had to recalibrate our clocks, because the Earth's rotation has been disturbed by the collective effect of so many eyes rolling at once.



But it's part of Lucas' Original Vision! Like Jar-Jar!
Good line

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-06, 04:31 AM
The Empire has pretty consistently been based on the Roman Empire. It makes sense that an Imperial remnant would use a Roman-style salute, which is what the Nazi salute was derived from.

I've always thought that the Empire was based on Nazi Germany as well.

The bigotry (in a galaxy with thousands of sentient species, only humans can serve in the military and bureaucracy), totalitarian nature, the Stormtrooper name, the giant weapon fetish . . .

Noclevername
2016-Jan-06, 01:44 PM
I've always thought that the Empire was based on Nazi Germany as well.

The bigotry (in a galaxy with thousands of sentient species, only humans can serve in the military and bureaucracy), totalitarian nature, the Stormtrooper name, the giant weapon fetish . . .

The Romans were extremely prejudiced (classism, not speciesism) and totalitarian by today's standards. They certainly used advanced weapons by the technology standards of their day. The Nazis consciously copied much of their ceremonies, pomp and circumstance, etc. from the Romans, and from later empires that also copied the Romans. Meanwhile Rome took a lot of their own cues from Hellenic Greece and Alexander's Macedon. Turn, turn, turn.

Extravoice
2016-Jan-06, 02:36 PM
I finally saw the movie over the weekend, and enjoyed it.
I had lots of small issues, but was able to look past them for the most part.

That said...
1) The Empire, or whatever they are now called, needs some imagination. Building new Death Stars is growing old.
2) Does there always have to be a Dark Lord working behind the scenes?

CJSF
2016-Jan-06, 02:51 PM
2) Does there always have to be a Dark Lord working behind the scenes?

That does seem to be the way the Dark Side operates.

CJSF

Amber Robot
2016-Jan-06, 06:24 PM
That said...
1) The Empire, or whatever they are now called, needs some imagination. Building new Death Stars is growing old.

It's not beyond the realm of imagination that a lumbering government would repeat the mistakes of 30 years ago. They may even look back nostalgically at the previous Death Star(s), despite their failures, and want to do bigger and better.

pzkpfw
2016-Jan-06, 06:31 PM
They should make Death Stars out of whatever the Millennium Falcon is made of.

Extravoice
2016-Jan-06, 09:42 PM
I missed part of the operating principles of the new death star.
Does it travel to the system in question, eat the star, and then zap the planets it wants to destroy?

There are so many things wrong with that, but I must maintain my suspension of disbelief :)

schlaugh
2016-Jan-06, 10:05 PM
They should make Death Stars out of whatever the Millennium Falcon is made of.

Or Harrison Ford.

CJSF
2016-Jan-06, 10:06 PM
The new starkiller or whatever it is called seems to be movable, but able to target planets light years away. Otherwise it would have had to use the Hosnian system's sun to charge up (thus destroying it), so blasting all the planets in the system would have been ultimately unnecessary (although I guess it would prevent many people from escaping). The movie at least implied that it was capable of serious long-range targeting.

CJSF

Noclevername
2016-Jan-06, 11:56 PM
It's not beyond the realm of imagination that a lumbering government would repeat the mistakes of 30 years ago. They may even look back nostalgically at the previous Death Star(s), despite their failures, and want to do bigger and better.

Like filmmakers?

Noclevername
2016-Jan-06, 11:58 PM
I missed part of the operating principles of the new death star.
Does it travel to the system in question, eat the star, and then zap the planets it wants to destroy?

There are so many things wrong with that, but I must maintain my suspension of disbelief :)

I got the impression that it could shoot through hyperspace. Which is probably also where it stuffed all that solar mass.

Spacedude
2016-Jan-07, 04:01 AM
Saw it yesterday, ok movie but like others have said I agree that it was just a more souped version of the original. Glad I didn't pitch a tent waiting for it (not that I ever would do so for any movie).

danscope
2016-Jan-07, 04:28 AM
If we don't suspend practical reality while watching a movie (ladies and gentlemen...it's only a movie ) like star wars, we'll never have any fun with scify. Heck, the Millenium Falcon has been sitting there for years.... and Ray just kickstarts it , fully fueled/charged ...what ever... and Bluey !!!!
For entertainment, it really is a great story, and they take the trouble to develop the characters much better than many producers.
They take the luxury of time , we get to bond with the characters. That makes a great movie and a wonderful story.

Dan

Noclevername
2016-Jan-07, 10:04 AM
I thought that since the junk dealer had been trying to start the Falcon, he was the one who fueled/maintained it. It's not like Rey and Finn just found it buried in sand one day and started it.

jamesabrown
2016-Jan-07, 03:15 PM
So far I've not seen anyone mention this...

Yes, all agree that the new movie rhymes with Episode IV. But I found so many pale imitations that the effect was spoiled. One particular case in question...

BB-8 has been universally described as A) this generation's R2-D2, and B) cute as a button. But for a R2 stand-in, I found the character of BB-8 to be far inadequate. R2 was a major plot driver with a far more interesting personality. This is a droid that escaped the blockade runner on its own intiative. This is a droid that fooled Luke into removing his restraining bolt so that he could escape under the cover of darkness to fulfill his mission of delivering Leia's message to Ben Kenobi. R2 *hacked* the Death Star, opening doors and shutting down trash compactors. (There's probably a good reason why it couldn't shut down the tractor beam.) R2 repaired Luke's X-Wing and the Millenium Falcon in mid-flight, saving the day repeatedly. That is the work of an interesting and necessary character. If not for R2's dogged initiative, Luke would have been killed by the stormtroopers with his aunt and uncle, and the movie would have been over by the end of Act 1.

By contrast, BB-8 ran along behind other people and carried a thumb drive.

Likewise, R2, being a non-English-speaking, non-human character, needed someone to interact with, and George Lucas gave him C-3PO, the perfect match. The two droids were like an old married couple. They bickered, they argued, and they couldn't stand to be away from each other too long. To see the two droids act so human was fresh and inventive back in 1977.

On the other hand, BB-8 had no one to interact with. Abrams for some reason gave Rey the ability to understand its beeps and boops, despite no other human character in the Star Wars universe being able to do so. But she treats BB-8 as nothing more than a kind of iPhone--just a source of information cum data storage device. I can't picture Rey declining anyone taking BB-8 off her hands, saying, "Not on your life. That little droid and I have been through a lot together."

R2 had a range of emotions. We knew when it was scared, when it was angry, and when it was quivering with pride and happiness. BB-8 is little more than a cute puppy dog for audiences to coo at, trailing along at the feet of the other characters, and would hardly have been missed if it had been left behind back on the desert planet.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-07, 04:06 PM
I have to agree, BBQ was the least interesting thing in the movie.

CJSF
2016-Jan-07, 04:14 PM
Rey's abilities and reason for being left on Jakku are (I am hoping) going to become really important to the story. She has mad fighting skills, can speak "droid," and hinted more than once that she was on Jakku for secret purposes. I'll be really cheesed off it that ends up just her mom telling her so to keep her happy/quiet or whatever while they vanished and left her waiting for years.

CJSF

CJSF
2016-Jan-07, 04:15 PM
..and yes, BB-8 was cute and its means of locomotion "interestingly different," but I never got the sense it was supposed to be on a par with R2.

CJSF

Noclevername
2016-Jan-07, 04:24 PM
..and yes, BB-8 was cute and its means of locomotion "interestingly different," but I never got the sense it was supposed to be on a par with R2.

CJSF


No, it was supposed to be blatantly toyetic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyetic). In that regard, it served its purpose.

SeanF
2016-Jan-07, 04:56 PM
I can't picture Rey declining anyone taking BB-8 off her hands...
I can picture it - I just remember the visuals of when it actually happened in the movie. ;)

Amber Robot
2016-Jan-07, 06:14 PM
Like filmmakers?

Like filmmakers who spent only two months writing what is arguably the most-awaited movie script of all time.

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-07, 07:08 PM
On the other hand, BB-8 had no one to interact with. Abrams for some reason gave Rey the ability to understand its beeps and boops, despite no other human character in the Star Wars universe being able to do so.

BB-8's master, Poe, does too. I don't remember if BB-8 talks to anyone else.

In Episodes 4, 5, and 6 Luke converses with R2 without a translator.

Is it that hard to believe that Finn the former Stormtrooper wouldn't know the language that Astromech droids speak? The Empire and the First Order don't use them, they have their own droids.

CJSF
2016-Jan-07, 07:11 PM
Refresh my memory, please. Does Luke understand Astromech Droid in Ep. IV, or is it only later in V and VI?

CJSF

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-07, 07:18 PM
He does in the first movie. R2 is his copilot during the battle against the first Death Star.

CJSF
2016-Jan-07, 07:30 PM
I thought he was getting a translation in his HUD. I will have to watch it again.

CJSF

Extravoice
2016-Jan-07, 07:52 PM
In an early scene of the original movie (EP 4?), doesn't C3PO say something like "He claims he is the property of one Obi Wan Kenobi" to Luke?
So, Luke probably doesn't understand R2D2 at that point.

ETA: Actually, the more I think about that scene, the more I'm sure Luke couldn't understand R2.

Extravoice
2016-Jan-07, 08:00 PM
I have to agree, BBQ was the least interesting thing in the movie.

BB8 is there for one reason.

To quote Yogurt from Space Balls...
"Merchandising, merchandising, where the real money from the movie is made!"

jamesabrown
2016-Jan-07, 08:03 PM
I can picture it - I just remember the visuals of when it actually happened in the movie. ;)

Sorry, I didn't recall that.

jamesabrown
2016-Jan-07, 08:06 PM
In an early scene of the original movie (EP 4?), doesn't C3PO say something like "He claims he is the property of one Obi Wan Kenobi" to Luke?
So, Luke probably doesn't understand R2D2 at that point.

ETA: Actually, the more I think about that scene, the more I'm sure Luke couldn't understand R2.

Yes, Luke "understands" R2 the way a pet owner understands her cat.

jamesabrown
2016-Jan-07, 08:09 PM
BB-8's master, Poe, does too. I don't remember if BB-8 talks to anyone else.


Did Poe actually converse with BB-8? Or did he just talk at his droid the way a rider gives commands to a horse?

SeanF
2016-Jan-07, 08:23 PM
Luke did not understand R2 in the original trilogy. His X-wing display translates when R2's in the X-wing, but there were several scenes where 3PO had to translate R2 for Luke. In "Empire," when R2 burbles at Luke on Dagobah, Luke responds with, "If you're saying coming here was a bad idea, I'm beginning to agree with you."

On the other hand, Poe definitely understands BB-8. At the end, when R2 wakes up and displays his section of the map, BB-8 asks Poe to get him the "thumb drive" back, and Poe does.

crosscountry
2016-Jan-07, 09:16 PM
Ok, we're in a galaxy that has FTL travel, stellar converters, and sentient robots. Yet the robots cannot speak the common language with humans. My cell phone isn't sentient, but it gives me directions and takes commands in this language.

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-07, 10:16 PM
Ok, we're in a galaxy that has FTL travel, stellar converters, and sentient robots. Yet the robots cannot speak the common language with humans. My cell phone isn't sentient, but it gives me directions and takes commands in this language.

Some droids do, others don't.

Does it really bother you so?

I like it, it's whimsical having non-humanly-shaped robots talk with whistles, beeps, and such. Would you really like R2-D2 as much if it spoke English?

korjik
2016-Jan-07, 11:59 PM
Ok, we're in a galaxy that has FTL travel, stellar converters, and sentient robots. Yet the robots cannot speak the common language with humans. My cell phone isn't sentient, but it gives me directions and takes commands in this language.

Does a cars computer speak and understand english? That is what an astromech droid is to a large degree.

Glom
2016-Jan-08, 12:11 AM
BB-8 was cute, but the key thing was that he was a real prop, not a CGI cartoon. I was so impressed when I first learned that.

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-08, 12:45 AM
Does a cars computer speak and understand english? That is what an astromech droid is to a large degree.


Depends on what you mean by "understand".

Current AIs can recognize what you say and give answers to questions, but they're not (yet) intelligent in the way that is generally meant by the word. The lights aren't on; they're sophisticated pattern matchers. Give it another forty-fifty years, we might have real artificial minds by then.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-08, 12:50 AM
Ok, we're in a galaxy that has FTL travel, stellar converters, and sentient robots. Yet the robots cannot speak the common language with humans. My cell phone isn't sentient, but it gives me directions and takes commands in this language.

Canon: R2 and BB-8 are mech droids. Mech droids spend their time in hangar bays communicating with machines.

Conjecture: They were never meant to be in communication with humans. We are seeing them in a story about highly resourceful people in highly unusual situations who have expropriated droids for unusual duties. One way you can see this is so is that nobody else gives droids a second thought. They are never suspected of any higher functions than their primary purpose, and in fact, are never even fired upon (by troops or by battle cruisers). This happens to make them useful to go "under the radar" for those engaged in sneaking about.

korjik
2016-Jan-08, 04:09 AM
Depends on what you mean by "understand".

Current AIs can recognize what you say and give answers to questions, but they're not (yet) intelligent in the way that is generally meant by the word. The lights aren't on; they're sophisticated pattern matchers. Give it another forty-fifty years, we might have real artificial minds by then.

I didnt say a current AI, I said a car's computer. There isnt a need for the thing that runs the emission controls and the throttle to be able to talk. After you give cars the ability to navigate, then there wont even be a need to be able to talk to give directions. The self driving cars will need to communicate with one another, but they will not be using something so crude as speech to do it. Maybe some sort of beepy sounding machine language.

So you would end up with a machine that would need to be able to understand speech but would only use machine language to communicate with one another.....

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-08, 04:51 AM
Sorry, I misunderstood your point.

Really though, this whole discussion re droid language is really overthinking the issue.

If I was a betting person, I'd lay money on it being nothing more than a whimsical touch by Lucas to have non-human shaped droids speak in a humorous, emotive way because it's fun. We're talking about a science fantasy film from the mid '70s that is an homage to pulpy Golden and Silver Age science fiction and sword and sorcery tales.

LaurieAG
2016-Jan-08, 09:36 AM
If I was a betting person, I'd lay money on it being nothing more than a whimsical touch by Lucas to have non-human shaped droids speak in a humorous, emotive way because it's fun. We're talking about a science fantasy film from the mid '70s that is an homage to pulpy Golden and Silver Age science fiction and sword and sorcery tales.

Save your money Skeptic.

Phreaking or phone network hacking was popular in the 70's and from the 90's fixed line modems all made similar noises when handshaking (initialising a connection).

https://youtu.be/vvr9AMWEU-c

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking

Phone phreaking got its start in the late 1950s in the United States. Its golden age was the late 1960s and early 1970s. Phone phreaks spent a lot of time dialing around the telephone network to understand how the phone system worked. They listened to the pattern of tones to figure out how calls were routed. They read obscure telephone company technical journals. They learned how to impersonate operators and other telephone company personnel. They dug through telephone company trash bins to find "secret" documents. They sneaked into telephone company buildings at night and wired up their own telephones. They built clever little electronic devices called blue boxes, black boxes, and red boxes to help them explore the network and make free phone calls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phreaking_boxes

Most phreaking boxes are electronic devices which interface directly with a telephone line and manipulate the line or the greater system in some way through either by generating audible tones that invoke switching functions (for example, the blue box), or by manipulating the electrical characteristics of the line to disrupt normal line function (for example, the black box). However a few boxes can use mechanical or acoustic methods - for example, it was possible to use a pair of properly tuned whistles as a red box.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-08, 09:53 AM
Is it that hard to believe that Finn the former Stormtrooper wouldn't know the language that Astromech droids speak? The Empire and the First Order don't use them, they have their own droids.

C3PO speaks six million forms of communication, and in a galaxy the size of a galaxy, there's room for a great many more. Our one species has tens of thousands of tongues active at this time, despite protests about having lost the less-used ones, and more computer languages. Droids made a thousand parsecs lightyears from each other might use totally different beeps and boops to get their message across. Why would a single human in a nontechnical job need to learn them? It sounds more like specialist work.

Extravoice
2016-Jan-08, 11:25 AM
Doesn't 3PO introduce himself in the first movie with "I am C3PO, human-cyborg relations."

Clearly there's a need for assistance in communicating between droids and people. (or maybe just the people in the audience. :) )


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Noclevername
2016-Jan-08, 01:04 PM
Doesn't 3PO introduce himself in the first movie with "I am C3PO, human-cyborg relations."

Clearly there's a need for assistance in communicating between droids and people. (or maybe just the people in the audience. :) )


The first job Uncle Owen buys the droids for is to translate the binary language of vaporators, to which 3PO replies that he had worked with the binary language of load lifters which was "similar". So even among basic machines, there's clearly a good deal of variation.

parallaxicality
2016-Jan-08, 01:40 PM
Apparently 3PO thinks the Millennium Falcon speaks with a very peculiar dialect, which raises the question of how intelligent these machines actually are.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-08, 03:02 PM
If I was a betting person, I'd lay money on it being nothing more than a whimsical touch by Lucas to have non-human shaped droids speak in a humorous, emotive way because it's fun.
Of course that's primary.

But, as for "...nothing more than..." the concept still has a workable in-story rationale.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-08, 04:43 PM
But, as for "...nothing more than..." the concept still has a workable in-story rationale.

I didn't get that impression.

If two-character interaction wasn't needed for causing dramatic tension at the film's start, there could have been only one, English* speaking droid with Death Star plans in its memory; something useful to help on a farm, such as a repair droid. For that matter, two plain-speech droids could also have served, even though this renders C3PO useless for any practical reason and only "the sidekick" of R2 for story purposes.


*Galactic analogue that happens to look and sound just like English to the audience just as the main characters all look like humans of Earth.

Solfe
2016-Jan-09, 12:11 AM
C3PO speaks six million forms of communication, and in a galaxy the size of a galaxy, there's room for a great many more. Our one species has tens of thousands of tongues active at this time, despite protests about having lost the less-used ones, and more computer languages. Droids made a thousand parsecs lightyears from each other might use totally different beeps and boops to get their message across. Why would a single human in a nontechnical job need to learn them? It sounds more like specialist work.

In Rebels, they used that one. One of the characters acts as a translator after a problem with droids and behaves very opportunistically. It was pretty funny.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-09, 05:22 AM
I didn't get that impression.

If two-character interaction wasn't needed for causing dramatic tension at the film's start, there could have been only one, English* speaking droid with Death Star plans in its memory; something useful to help on a farm, such as a repair droid. For that matter, two plain-speech droids could also have served, even though this renders C3PO useless for any practical reason and only "the sidekick" of R2 for story purposes.


You think that Academy Award winning smash blockbuster franchise directors devote a significant fraction of their precious 120 minute budget on things that serve only a single purpose?
That would be a pretty rookie error.

Joenurton
2016-Jan-09, 05:43 AM
You can tell Disney took over Lucasfilm by some of the bad jokes throughout the movie

NorthernDevo
2016-Jan-09, 08:13 AM
Hello! Still without the Internet, I've decided to hold off paying for monthly service until I get a decent computer, but the upshot is I haven't had the time to read all six pages to this point.
Nevertheless, I can offer my opinions of the movie. I just saw it tonight.

I went into it both biased - I hate what J.J. Abrams did to Star Trek and had no reason at all to assume he'd do anything better with Star Wars - and ignorant: with no TV or Internet, I've had no information at all about the new movie. So I was fully prepared to dislike it, with no idea at all about the storyline.

I can sum up my impressions of the movie into a single word: UNBELIEVABLE!!! Dear LORD I had never imagined that this film could have been this utterly, perfectly spectacular! I'm still trying to scrape my jaw off the floor after this incredible masterwork - and I am NOT giving in to my usual overly-flowery language, I assure you.

Episode VII is an absolute masterpiece - a stunning, beautiful continuation of the SW saga. Unlike Abram's silly ST offerings, The Force Awakens is a mature, powerful and respectful film. (OK - I'm sure there are lots of nits people can pick, I'm dealing with general feelings at the moment.)

I loved the characters; each was - just as the characters of the earlier SW space-operas - a well-crafted archetype brought to superb life. Rey - the protagonist - was absolutely perfect; I'm an old sap and more or less had totally fallen in love with her strength, wit and cleverness (to say nothing of her beauty). The bad guy (Sorry; can't remember his name) I'd expected to be a Vader clone; to my astonishment he turned out to be a surprisingly complex and tortured individual. (OK - gotta rant for a second - going to white-out for a sec to avoid spoilers.)
OK - bad dude is a fantastic character; not for his strength but for the lack of it. Ben Solo (Can't remember his 'evil' name) is a weaselly, whining little coward. He's a bully and a sycophant. OK - his Granddad might've been the ultimate evil dictator, but he was ten times the man this weak little boy is, and the actor playing him did a FANTASTIC job of bringing that to life. The last thing I hated about the promo images of the movie - those stupid little laser cross-guards on evil dude's lightsaber - are explained by his immaturity.
I swear - I've no idea how this series is going to go, but it's going to be SO nice watching Rey deliver the biggest smackdown in Star Wars history to this pathetic little whiner. You KNOW she's gonna sooner or later.

Anyhoo; back to the movie: The special effects were beautifully-crafted and subtle; none of the "LENS FLARES! SHAKE THE CAMERA! SHAKE THE CAMERA!!!" nonsense from the ST reboots. I loved the quiet touches: there's a moment when Rey drops a packet of powder into a bowl of water. After a few seconds, it swells into a small loaf of quickbread. Something subtle like that says so much about the harshness and narrow-margined life the young scavenger leads.

The story develops well; I was cheering with glee when the Resistance X-wings ripped into the New Order TIEs; it's just how you always wanted to see the venerable T-65 represented in combat. The world-sized weapon fits the elan of the old Empire (Really - how many super-weapons do they have to have shot out from under them before they'll start figuring it out?!?) though the 'use up a star to charge the batteries' thing might have been a little overcooked - pardon the pun.

I'll go on all day, but suffice it for now for me to say I was not only pleasantly surprised at the quality of this film, I was utterly and completely gobsmacked - and take back all of...er, no...I'll take back a few of the things I've said about J.J. Abrams over the years. He's done a lot to redeem himself in my eyesa with this magnificent offering - let's see how the rest of the series goes. If this film is any indication, the Star Wars universe is in very good hands.

novaderrik
2016-Jan-09, 08:25 AM
people seem to not like the "space station the size of a planet" thing that the bad guys keep trying to use in the movies... "if it didn't work out so well the first time, so why did they build another one around the forest moon of Endor?" is something that has been argued about for 30 years..

now, 30 years later, they built a new one- even more bigger and more powerful.

why would they do this?

i think it's because of the time it takes to build these things: the second Death Star had to be in the process of being built when the first one got destroyed, so they just kept on going with it.. and given the size of the Starkiller in the new movie, they were probably already working on building that, too, and they just kept working on it in secret after Papa Palpatine got thrown down that inexplicable shaft that led from his throne room to the reactor that Lando was in the process of flying circles around in the Millennium Falcon at just about that very moment..

this also explains how they had the same silly weaknesses to attacks: they figured that the rebels just got lucky and kept the same basic ideas..

Noclevername
2016-Jan-09, 08:51 AM
You think that Academy Award winning smash blockbuster franchise directors devote a significant fraction of their precious 120 minute budget on things that serve only a single purpose?
That would be a pretty rookie error.

Episode IV was written by a rookie. All other films followed the conventions that he laid down there.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-09, 08:59 AM
The bad guy (Sorry; can't remember his name) I'd expected to be a Vader clone; to my astonishment he turned out to be a surprisingly complex and tortured individual. (OK - gotta rant for a second - going to white-out for a sec to avoid spoilers.)

Baby bad guy Ben was called Kylo Ren when masked up (I prefer "Darth Emoteen"). The Big Bad behind him was Snake or Snape or Snoop or Smoke or Snooker S. Diddy or something along those lines (really it's "Snoke" but who cares, it's a stupid name for a villain. Worse and less threatening than "Count Dooku.")

cosmocrazy
2016-Jan-09, 11:46 AM
Yoda foresaw Luke losing if he left Dagobah, and the Jedi council said a son conceived by the Force would bring balance, so there's that. I think it foresees probable pathways, not certainty.

Luke did lose. After defeating his father in their final dual he threw down his weapon and proclaimed to the emperor that he would never turn to the dark side. The Emperor then attacked Luke using the power of the dark force which inevitably would have killed Luke. Vader (Anakin) then, after a short deliberation with himself, finally succumbed to the good within and dually ended the Emperor's life, saving his son plus bringing balance to the force once more.

The "foresight" the force brings is cloudy and the details easily misinterpreted, but the general final outcome is as prophesied.

I think this is the basic idea and one that fits well with the properties of the force. After all if the future foresight was clear and completely definitive then there wouldn't be much point.

cosmocrazy
2016-Jan-09, 11:51 AM
Episode IV was written by a rookie. All other films followed the conventions that he laid down there.

Very true, Lucas had a vivid imagination and great passion for the story of the Star wars trilogy. But it was common knowledge that he was a terrible writer and had a lot of help changing many aspects of the story and characters to enable it to be the success it is today.

cosmocrazy
2016-Jan-09, 12:14 PM
I didn't get that impression.

If two-character interaction wasn't needed for causing dramatic tension at the film's start, there could have been only one, English* speaking droid with Death Star plans in its memory; something useful to help on a farm, such as a repair droid. For that matter, two plain-speech droids could also have served, even though this renders C3PO useless for any practical reason and only "the sidekick" of R2 for story purposes.


*Galactic analogue that happens to look and sound just like English to the audience just as the main characters all look like humans of Earth.

Its a fantasy sci-fi and is meant to be entertaining to the general audience. Any successful movie of this type must appeal to the majority, taking them out of their mundane lives and immersing them into a fantasy adventure. All the characters play a little part in creating this fantasy scene. R2D2 and CP3O are the "classic" comedy duo, but rather than using "humans" the writers cleverly use androids that are completely dissimilar in every way other than they are both machines. This allows them to appeal to both kids and adults whether they are into science tech or not.

BB8 in this latest film is cute and also funny, but also serves an essential role much like R2D2.

The general idea behind the film is to show that the rebellion, although successful in defeating the Emperor is unable to gain back democracy in the galaxy. Luke has failed to successfully bring back the Jedi order and the rebels have not been able to reform a ruling government. As a result things are still tough at the moment, people in general are out to fend for themselves. I think the movie depicts this really well with use of the main characters.

cosmocrazy
2016-Jan-09, 12:27 PM
Saw it yesterday, ok movie but like others have said I agree that it was just a more souped version of the original. Glad I didn't pitch a tent waiting for it (not that I ever would do so for any movie).

I can't believe people in their right mind would do this (my bold) for just a film?? I was shocked to find out many had done so :doh:

Solfe
2016-Jan-09, 02:18 PM
(OK - gotta rant for a second - going to white-out for a sec to avoid spoilers.)

I totally agree with your spoiler assessment. They got a lot of traction out of him for all of those things: It's funny and scarey at the same time. I love it.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-09, 04:37 PM
Episode IV was written by a rookie. All other films followed the conventions that he laid down there.

A rookie??? Both THX-1138 and American Graffiti are classics in their own right!

American Graffiti was nominated for 5 Oscars - including Best Writing!
THX-1138 was nominated for a Hugo for Lucas' screenplay and story!
He had 12 years under his belt as writer.

You should check your facts.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-09, 06:48 PM
A rookie??? Both THX-1138 and American Graffiti are classics in their own right!

American Graffiti was nominated for 5 Oscars - including Best Writing!
THX-1138 was nominated for a Hugo for Lucas' screenplay and story!
He had 12 years under his belt as writer.

You should check your facts.


It was RELEASED after those movies. But Lucas started working on what became the Star Wars story many years earlier, and it went through many edits and rewrites for years before being filmed. (Search your feelings and check your facts, you know it to be true!)

publiusr
2016-Jan-09, 07:44 PM
The world-sized weapon fits the elan of the old Empire (Really - how many super-weapons do they have to have shot out from under them before they'll start figuring it out?!?) though the 'use up a star to charge the batteries' thing might have been a little overcooked - pardon the pun.

I'll take back a few of the things I've said about J.J. Abrams over the years. He's done a lot to redeem himself in my eyes with this magnificent offering - let's see how the rest of the series goes. If this film is any indication, the Star Wars universe is in very good hands.

Early in the film, we heard Rey mention the word Kelvin--and what was the first ship we saw in the 09 Trek reboot?

More about other links in a moment.



Containing an entire star's worth of energy in an even smaller oscillator is poorly thought out. The mass alone would crush the planet/death star. And to make that in 30 years? How long would the technology alone take to develop?


Now, remember, the whole mass/energy of the universe was once smaller than an atom, so. This actually tells me they are on the way to Time Lord tech.
We saw a star in the TARDIS after all, and when the planet exploded, that sun was only that planet's width--as if hit by the Master's compression weapon.
To go back to the 09 Trek--we saw Vulcan fall in on itself--so I'm going to say some type or early red-matter deca-lithium?

Besides, the Fourth Doctor saw that Captain who kept whole worlds like shrunken heads



people seem to not like the "space station the size of a planet" thing that the bad guys keep trying to use in the movies... "if it didn't work out so well the first time, so why did they build another one around the forest moon of Endor?" is something that has been argued about for 30 years..

now, 30 years later, they built a new one- even more bigger and more powerful.

why would they do this?



Shock and Awe. It does work.

This base actually makes sense. In the past, you built these large mobile moons (Death Stars) that had to go to their targets--so a lot of their mass went into their hyperdrives. The weak point of Starkiller base really wasn't all that weak. There had to be both substantial interior and exterior damage to kill it.

Here the idea isn't to move your weapon into harm's way, but to have a base that fires a hyperlight weapon of enormous power--an abomination that wrecked nature in just firing the thing.


Now I have heard folks make the same complaint about seeing this weapon work--seeing targets light years away explode instantly--same as with Spock Prime watching Vulcan implode.

Here is my explanation to that--which may also answer why the penchant for superweapons.

Had the beam been stealthy--the military goal would have been met--but that isn't enough to cause subjects to quake in their boots.

Handwavium, I know, but my guess is that, in-universe, the hyperlight weapon has an even faster 'halo' of even faster quanta jacketing it--that moves near instantaneously. This halo then decays into visible light when it strikes an atmosphere, in much the same way that the audio spotlight holosonics works:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound

This halo effect means that the targeted world can see the main body of the beam as it approaches--causing fear.

Even worse, the main body of the beam also illuminates the target while destroying it--meaning that everyone in the whole bloody galaxy can see the beam and the worlds it destroys **real-time** and unaided.

Saddest of all, when the beam is spent--all you see now is the ghost of the world as it takes regular visible light time to travel--meaning you will see this sick event for a second time.

This also explains how Nero showed Vulcan's death to Spock Prime.


people seem to not like the "space station the size of a planet" thing that the bad guys keep trying to use in the movies.
now, 30 years later, they built a new one- even more bigger and more powerful. why would they do this?


Short answer:

The Tarkin Doctrine.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-10, 03:18 AM
It was RELEASED after those movies. But Lucas started working on what became the Star Wars story many years earlier, and it went through many edits and rewrites for years before being filmed. (Search your feelings and check your facts, you know it to be true!)
Yes. Released - after many edits and rewrites - as an accomplished, acclaimed writer and director.
We agree.

Delvo
2016-Jan-10, 04:41 AM
Without an Empire around, who had the control of resources to build such a thing?

Noclevername
2016-Jan-10, 05:39 AM
We agree.

Really?

Noclevername
2016-Jan-10, 05:42 AM
Without an Empire around, who had the control of resources to build such a thing?

The main weapon must have been under construction for decades, maybe generations. Where you had a fallen Empire with a Galaxy's worth of resources in use, splinter groups might still control tens of thousands of star systems to complete that work.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-10, 04:37 PM
Really?
Yes. You acknowledged the facts, even supplied some.

Noclevername
2016-Jan-10, 04:40 PM
Yes. You acknowledged the facts, even supplied some.

It's all in the interpretation of those facts.

Anyway, dropping the subject.

novaderrik
2016-Jan-10, 10:45 PM
"facts"..

these are movies, people..

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-11, 04:49 AM
"facts"..

these are movies, people..
If you're going to participate you must come to the meetings.:p

The facts we speak of are George Lucas' biography. We have been talking about whether a writer who has received awards and Oscar nominations for his writing can be, in any meaningful interpretation, considered a "rookie".

Noclevername
2016-Jan-11, 10:17 AM
If you're going to participate you must come to the meetings.:p

The facts we speak of are George Lucas' biography. We have been talking about whether a writer who has received awards and Oscar nominations for his writing can be, in any meaningful interpretation, considered a "rookie".

Yes, because he was at the beginning of his career.

Drummer62
2016-Jan-11, 11:01 AM
What a complete stinker of a movie!

My wife and I got the tickets as a gift and we're both sci-fi fans, so we were really looking forward to the show.
We were in a good mood, ready to enjoy the movie - in 3D.

After about 30min into the movie I looked at my wife and said: "Shall we?". She knew immediately what I meant and we left right away.
We rarely stop a movie when we watch one at home (except for the real stinkers where you can't even enjoy how bad they are), let alone walk out of a movie theater.

The movie was loud. Very loud. I'm not talking about the volume of the sound system. Just bloody noisy. For no good reason.
The "musical" score was simply one of the worst ever! Full on noise pretty much all the time.
There was no story of any interest.
The acting was pretty bad all around. Especially Harrison Ford.
The 3D effects were OK.
The visual effects were pretty good and well utilized. They were subtle and not in your face.

Maybe it got better after the 30 minutes we endured. We were not inclined to find out.

I'm sorry for the money our well-meaning friends spent on our tickets.
Don't waste any money or time on this one.

jamesabrown
2016-Jan-11, 04:46 PM
Now I have heard folks make the same complaint about seeing this weapon work--seeing targets light years away explode instantly--same as with Spock Prime watching Vulcan implode.



'Twould make an interesting space opera story. A character knows that a laser-beam weapon has been fired and will destroy his home planet. But the beam won't reach the planet for years. Yet he can't warn his family to escape because any message he sends will trail along behind the laser beam. He lives for years knowing the precise date his family will perish and yet can do nothing about it.

crosscountry
2016-Jan-11, 04:55 PM
Maybe it got better after the 30 minutes we endured. We were not inclined to find out.


You'll never know.

It takes longer to drive to the cinema and park than 30 minutes for me. Even if I hadn't liked it, I'd have stayed just to make it worth my effort.

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-11, 08:04 PM
What a complete stinker of a movie!


Out of curiosity, would you mind listing, say, ten movies that you give high marks to?

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-11, 08:52 PM
Now I have heard folks make the same complaint about seeing this weapon work--seeing targets light years away explode instantly
Did they miss all the ships with faster-than-light drive in the previous 6 films?




--same as with Spock Prime watching Vulcan implode.

??
He was on a Moon, a mere stone's throw away.

Or am I missing something?

Drummer62
2016-Jan-11, 09:01 PM
Out of curiosity, would you mind listing, say, ten movies that you give high marks to?

Out of the movies I have seen recently, I'd give good to high marks to those 10 (in no particular order):

The End of the Tour (2015)
The Challenger (2013)
Ant-Man (2015)
Kill Your Darlings (2013)
Youth (2015)
The Man from U.N.C.L.E. (2015)
45 Years (2015)
The Martian (2015)
Irrational Man (2015)
Pawn Sacrifice (2014)

CJSF
2016-Jan-11, 09:03 PM
1. FTL light? That's has interesting implications for the Star Wars Universe (as in, their universe).
2. I believe Spock "prime" was on Delta Vega, which is retconned (I think) as an icy planet in the Vulcan System, having an orbit that took it close enough to "see Vulcan." The problem is, in order to get that close, there's not way the system would be stable - it would have to get as close to Vulcan as a large moon would. Dang it Jim, I'm an forum contributor, not a physicist, but I can't see this working out as a viable orbit.

CJSF

Extravoice
2016-Jan-11, 09:43 PM
Out of curiosity, would you mind listing, say, ten movies that you give high marks to?

Perhaps My Dinner with Andre? :D

Drummer62
2016-Jan-11, 09:50 PM
Perhaps My Dinner with Andre? :D

Not quite as good as one of my all time sci-fi favorites, The Man from Earth (2007), but a excellent movie, indeed. (I realize you were probably sarcasitic).

SkepticJ
2016-Jan-11, 11:04 PM
Out of the movies I have seen recently, I'd give good to high marks to those 10 (in no particular order)

Okay, so you do have decent taste in movies.

My recommendation is for you to try the movie again, not walk out before it really gets going. It's 135 min. long, you weren't even 1/4th of the way through it at the 30 min. mark.

Drummer62
2016-Jan-11, 11:26 PM
My recommendation is for you to try the movie again, not walk out before it really gets going. It's 135 min. long, you weren't even 1/4th of the way through it at the 30 min. mark.

Despite being a drummer and no stranger to loud music I am very sensitive to noise. Unfortunately, that is what I mostly found in the movie, especially in the score, which was full-on all the time without much differentiation or subtlety.

Btw, if anybody watches the movie "45 Years" pay attention to the sound design and production. That's how it's done - imho.

However, once the movie is out on newsgroups I might download it and give it another go but I am definitely not going to pay any money for it.

DaveC426913
2016-Jan-12, 12:56 AM
1. FTL light? That's has interesting implications for the Star Wars Universe (as in, their universe).

We have no way of knowing the nature of the Starkiller's weapon, but it's surely not simply light - any more than the Stormtrooper's blasters are lasers. :p

Solfe
2016-Jan-12, 04:13 AM
We have no way of knowing the nature of the Starkiller's weapon, but it's surely not simply light - any more than the Stormtrooper's blasters are lasers. :p

Business Insider posted (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-starkiller-base-weapon-works-star-wars-2015-12) a story about the "science" of the weapon. I read it twice, once with my head tipped to the right and once to the left.

I have decided to go with my initial gut feelings: "It's just a show, I should really just relax".

Delvo
2016-Jan-12, 04:35 AM
He was on a Moon, a mere stone's throw away.

Or am I missing something?He got dropped on the nearest handy survivable round object by a ship that had been in warp flight for a while from Vulcan to some other planet around some other star. Anything in the Vulcan solar system would already have been far behind.

CJSF
2016-Jan-12, 01:44 PM
According to Memory Alpha, he was dropped on Delta Vega, another planet in the Vulcan system (see my post above (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?150996-The-new-Star-Wars-movie-(spoilers-definitely)-(includes-pre-release-speculation)&p=2335899#post2335899)).

In the alternate reality [Star Trek (2009)], Delta Vega also harbored a small Starfleet outpost, manned for six months in 2258 by Montgomery Scott and his assistant, Keenser. Ambassador Spock, after arriving to the past from 2387, was captured by Nero and marooned on the planet, so that he could witness the destruction of Vulcan at Nero's hands.


CJSF

Solfe
2016-Apr-06, 10:33 PM
I picked up the DVD and my son unleashed some of his skill at analysis on me.

My son is concerned that Rey's vision is not her memories, but things that happened around the lightsabre itself. So someone had it at all of those places and imagines. This is bothersome because it seems possible that Kylo was in many of those places. So, Kylo left Rey on Jakku, Kylo was at the Temple, he retraced Luke's steps in Cloud City to get the Lightsabre and so on.

Creepy.

SeanF
2016-Apr-07, 02:46 AM
...Kylo left Rey on Jakku...
Adam Driver's only 9 years older than Daisy Ridley. Sure, the respective ages of the characters could be different, but that much?

BigDon
2016-May-03, 06:38 PM
Was I the only one who thought that everytime Princess Leia open her mouth she was going to relate a story about growing up in St. Olaf, Minnisota?

SkepticJ
2016-May-03, 07:57 PM
Was I the only one who thought that everytime Princess Leia open her mouth she was going to relate a story about growing up in St. Olaf, Minnisota?

Surely that's better than seeing her in the threadbare 30-year-old slave bikini? You know Leia and Han must've gotten a lot of use out of it, before they split.

Noclevername
2016-May-04, 05:29 AM
Surely that's better than seeing her in the threadbare 30-year-old slave bikini? You know Leia and Han must've gotten a lot of use out of it, before they split.

But which one of them wore it?

crosscountry
2016-May-09, 04:59 AM
But which one of them wore it?

You changed your avatar. I almost didn't recognize you.

Noclevername
2016-May-12, 10:20 PM
We have no way of knowing the nature of the Starkiller's weapon, but it's surely not simply light - any more than the Stormtrooper's blasters are lasers. :p

If they have FTL communications, as with the Probe Droid from The Empire Strikes Back, then they can transmit energy through hyperspace.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-13, 05:32 AM
If they have FTL communications, as with the Probe Droid from The Empire Strikes Back, then they can transmit energy through hyperspace.

That "fireballs in space" thing smacked of "let's not spend too much time on this, the fans will forgive us."

Hokie
2016-May-22, 09:42 PM
That "fireballs in space" thing smacked of "let's not spend too much time on this, the fans will forgive us."

How long of a movie are you willing to sit though? I have no idea the distance between the planets but if the beam travel at slower than FTL then they would need to split the movie up quite a few parts.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-22, 10:20 PM
How long of a movie are you willing to sit though? I have no idea the distance between the planets but if the beam travel at slower than FTL then they would need to split the movie up quite a few parts.

That's my point, it just doesn't work. Straight out of the 1950s.

Wait! Maybe Snoke is actually Ming the Merciless?

Then there's the matter of the planet that sucked up a sun...

bknight
2016-May-23, 01:08 AM
Well I have finally seen the movie, good special effects but not as good a story line as the original. I don't know if anyone else has posted this, nut I suspect Rey is the daughter of Luke abandoned for her own protection, Just my opinion, time will tell.

Noclevername
2016-May-23, 01:30 AM
That's my point, it just doesn't work. Straight out of the 1950s.

Wait! Maybe Snoke is actually Ming the Merciless?

Then there's the matter of the planet that sucked up a sun...

The Death Star physics doesn't work. Hyperdrive physics doesn't work. Coruscant couldn't exist in reality. The Force is magic.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-23, 12:01 PM
The Death Star physics doesn't work. Hyperdrive physics doesn't work. Coruscant couldn't exist in reality. The Force is magic.

And none of those looked as absurd on the screen.

Noclevername
2016-May-23, 12:20 PM
And none of those looked as absurd on the screen.

Looked fine to me. YMMV, I guess.

BigDon
2016-May-26, 07:10 PM
That's my point, it just doesn't work. Straight out of the 1950s.

Wait! Maybe Snoke is actually Ming the Merciless?

Then there's the matter of the planet that sucked up a sun...

That killed the weapon for me. AKA, exceeded my willful suspension of disbelief.

'Cause at first I was thinking, "At least they have near-infinite ammo."

The only other major issue was the Resistance was actually the new Establishment and the First Order were the new Rebels. Europe in 1946 and '47 was in a similar spot and nobody referred to the operating SS cells as the Third Reich. They called them terrorists and rebels.

Millennials. Established definitions take a back seat to feel good truthiness. (But...but...I WANT it to be true!")

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-26, 07:11 PM
Looked fine to me. YMMV, I guess.

Curvy balls of fire transit interstellar space to unerringly hit their target, five planets within eyeball range of each other? Yeah, looked fine to me too.

BigDon
2016-May-26, 07:50 PM
Worst case of power creep ever!

CJSF
2016-May-26, 08:06 PM
Curvy balls of fire transit interstellar space to unerringly hit their target, five planets within eyeball range of each other? Yeah, looked fine to me too.

I managed to rationalize/personally ret-con about everything in the movie except that. I have made my peace with it, but it really about pulled me out of the story in the theater. The other main point I had to swallow down is that Han and Chewie showed up SO QUICKLY after the Falcon was back in space.

But I've realized that transportation is essentially meaningless in the Star Wars universe. Whatever means he had of tracking it (hyperspatially, apparently), he just went there. The Galaxy is in truth VERY SMALL in that Universe. That does present a problem, though. Why use a moon (or planet) size energy weapon? Just hyper jump a planet killing asteroid at the right speed and mass right by the planet.

Anyway, if you start thinking too much about that stuff, pretty soon your range of acceptable fiction (never mind science-fiction or space-opera, or however you want to split hairs) becomes depressingly narrow.

CJSF

Amber Robot
2016-May-26, 08:25 PM
The Galaxy is in truth VERY SMALL in that Universe.

Which made it interesting that there was still a gap in their map of it.

CJSF
2016-May-26, 08:31 PM
Which made it interesting that there was still a gap in their map of it.

This is true... :-/

CJSF

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-26, 08:34 PM
I managed to rationalize/personally ret-con about everything in the movie except that. I have made my peace with it, but it really about pulled me out of the story in the theater. The other main point I had to swallow down is that Han and Chewie showed up SO QUICKLY after the Falcon was back in space.

But I've realized that transportation is essentially meaningless in the Star Wars universe. Whatever means he had of tracking it (hyperspatially, apparently), he just went there. The Galaxy is in truth VERY SMALL in that Universe. That does present a problem, though. Why use a moon (or planet) size energy weapon? Just hyper jump a planet killing asteroid at the right speed and mass right by the planet.

Anyway, if you start thinking too much about that stuff, pretty soon your range of acceptable fiction (never mind science-fiction or space-opera, or however you want to split hairs) becomes depressingly narrow.

CJSF

I hope I didn't give the impression that such snafus matter to me. I've been watching this stuff since you first could see the zipper.

jamesabrown
2016-May-27, 12:08 AM
What bugged me about the planet-killing weapon (beyond the absurd physics) was how little impact it seemed to have. In the first Star Wars, we had a long build-up to the destruction of Alderaan. Leia pleaded and begged, then seemed to sell her principles short to save her home world. Then when Tarkin ordered the destruction to proceed, Leia freaked. She cringed, and buried her face into the chest of the one who tortured her to avoid having to watch. When the world was annihilated, we saw Ben Kenobi's reaction to it from who knows how far away. (Although in a galaxy filled with populated planets, one would think that a planet's worth of people die every day, but that doesn't seem to bother Old Ben.) Later when Leia joins the rebellion people offer condolences to her for the loss of her family.

All of that made the final scene more powerful. We've seen what the Death Star can do, we know the name of the planet that was destroyed, we've seen the personal effects such a weapon has on individuals, and it's coming for the plucky survivors any minute now.

Meanwhile, in Episode VII, five unknown, unknowable planets are vaporized. I recall one scene with a couple of nameless people watch the incoming destruction from their balcony. And then everyone else basically shrugs it off. Sure, they agree that the new Death Star has to be destroyed, but the planet killer could have destroyed an uninhabited asteroid belt for all the emotional impact it had.

Quite frankly, if no one in the film cares about an act of destruction, no one in the audience should either.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-May-27, 12:12 AM
There's a who lost thread about Leia's involvement in the new Republic that would have given more impact to that I think. The current Chancellor is standing next to the hottie during the last moments of their planet's existence.

Waiting for the extended disc.

Amber Robot
2016-May-27, 05:16 PM
What bugged me about the planet-killing weapon (beyond the absurd physics) was how little impact it seemed to have. In the first Star Wars, we had a long build-up to the destruction of Alderaan. Leia pleaded and begged, then seemed to sell her principles short to save her home world. Then when Tarkin ordered the destruction to proceed, Leia freaked. She cringed, and buried her face into the chest of the one who tortured her to avoid having to watch. When the world was annihilated, we saw Ben Kenobi's reaction to it from who knows how far away. (Although in a galaxy filled with populated planets, one would think that a planet's worth of people die every day, but that doesn't seem to bother Old Ben.) Later when Leia joins the rebellion people offer condolences to her for the loss of her family.

All of that made the final scene more powerful. We've seen what the Death Star can do, we know the name of the planet that was destroyed, we've seen the personal effects such a weapon has on individuals, and it's coming for the plucky survivors any minute now.

Meanwhile, in Episode VII, five unknown, unknowable planets are vaporized. I recall one scene with a couple of nameless people watch the incoming destruction from their balcony. And then everyone else basically shrugs it off. Sure, they agree that the new Death Star has to be destroyed, but the planet killer could have destroyed an uninhabited asteroid belt for all the emotional impact it had.

Quite frankly, if no one in the film cares about an act of destruction, no one in the audience should either.

Another great comparison between decent writing (original trilogy) and lazy writing (JJ Abrams). Another example: in Episode IV, there's a discussion about how the secret plans to the death star were obtained at great cost so that they could be analyzed for any kind of weakness, but in Episode VII, some random guy says "hey, there must be some kind of thermal oscillator, let's just shoot that and the whole things blows up." I hope that Rogue One does a good job at showing us what that 'great cost' was.

There seem to be lots of good writers out there. There's just really no excuse for how bad a writer JJ is.

Hokie
2016-May-31, 02:14 PM
Why use a moon (or planet) size energy weapon? Just hyper jump a planet killing asteroid at the right speed and mass right by the planet. CJSF

Just don't put Admiral Ozzel in charge, he does not know when to drop out of hyperspace.

https://youtu.be/aV2DLkDPwM8?t=11s

Launch window
2016-Jun-07, 09:26 PM
Star Wars: Force Awakens' finishes its domestic run with $936,662,225
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm

Amber Robot
2016-Jun-07, 09:51 PM
Star Wars: Force Awakens' finishes its domestic run with $936,662,225
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm

I guess it doesn't matter if the writing is good or not.

Solfe
2016-Jun-07, 10:15 PM
I can forgive the bad dialog for the thermal-inator. What bugs me is the fact that everyone calls Finn a traitor... and he gets all bent out shape about it. He was obviously not meeting and exceeding as a stormtrooper. In fact, it seems he had been looking for a new job for quite some time. If Poe hadn't show up the dialog would have been:

Phasma: "Hey! Doesn't the rebellion have a weak point that we can use this big gun on?"
Klyo Ben: "Naw, Vadar destroyed all of the important things."
Finn: "Did you see the sale at Hot Topic this week? I was thinking of getting an applicat... I mean a blue lightsabre."
Hux: "Wait! I bet they have populated worlds or something and if we hit those, the whole rebellion goes BOOM!"
Finn (whispering): "Great. I didn't want to go back to Coruscant, but it's the nearest Hot Topic... not ideal but..."

Hasn't JJ worked with anyone who is job shopping? People like that generally don't care what their co-workers think of them.

CJSF
2016-Jun-07, 10:44 PM
Hasn't JJ worked with anyone who is job shopping? People like that generally don't care what their co-workers think of them.

Well, when your co-workers opinions might get you reprogrammed or killed, it might matter a bit more than what McKenzie or Brittney at Hot Topic thinks about you.

CJSF

Noclevername
2016-Jun-07, 10:54 PM
I guess it doesn't matter if the writing is good or not.

Still beats the prequels by a mile.

Solfe
2016-Jun-08, 03:00 AM
Well, when your co-workers opinions might get you reprogrammed or killed, it might matter a bit more than what McKenzie or Brittney at Hot Topic thinks about you.


CJSF


McKenzie and Brittney would find Finn funny, in a naive way and would enjoy picking on him. The average Hot Topic team member has far more leadership potential than Snoke. They would have stopped the Starkiller from powering up while under attack, preventing it's destruction. They would not have set themselves up for the obviously kick the dog, loose a leg thing that Snoke did with ordering Kylo to kill his father.

Amber Robot
2016-Jun-08, 05:15 PM
Still beats the prequels by a mile.

I'm certainly no fan of the prequels, but I wouldn't say the distance is that great.

Solfe
2016-Jul-16, 10:08 PM
I should be packing for camping, but I am really watching The Force Awakens.

And I am still laughing at the scene where the two stormtroopers wander into Kylo Ren's rage and leave before they get drawn into the crazy. I mean, there is crashing and weapon sounds with a leader type screaming in despair. They should be running to make sure everything is OK. But no, they don't.

Either A) their programming is bunk, B) their programming takes Kylo Ren in to account or C) Kylo Ren has enough outbursts that they override any and all programming.

The scene still cracks me up.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Jul-16, 10:11 PM
I keep waiting for Nick Clegg to show up as Harvey Mudd.

Noclevername
2016-Jul-17, 01:19 AM
Either A) their programming is bunk, B) their programming takes Kylo Ren in to account or C) Kylo Ren has enough outbursts that they override any and all programming.


D) Survival instinct is part of their programming.

Solfe
2016-Jul-17, 01:50 AM
D) Survival instinct is part of their programming.

You'd think they would all run away if that was the case.

However, it makes sense. The First Order seems like it was a group in the Rebellion that happened to like some aspects of the Empire, then ran away to enact those attributes. That would mean that they aren't the remnants of the Empire, just people who believe in a few aspects of Empire and ran wild with it.

That begs the question "where they get all their cash?". They seem to have far too much stuff for a "Not Republic, Not Empire" group.

You'd think the Republic would jump on the idea of remote governance and have no central capital. First, the don't seem to like having one and they've watch a couple of capital planets get burned just for being one.

Noclevername
2016-Jul-17, 01:56 AM
I think that they must be remnants of the Empire, to explain where they got their resources and superweapon. You don't build a sun eating planet o'doom as a ragtag rebel offshoot.

Solfe
2016-Jul-17, 02:14 AM
I think that they must be remnants of the Empire, to explain where they got their resources and superweapon. You don't build a sun eating planet o'doom as a ragtag rebel offshoot.

I wouldn't think so either. But they don't seem to match either the Empire or the Rebellion.

They seem to think the Republic is dangerous from the perspective of a member, former or otherwise. All of them have a perchance for using the words "traitor" and "betray". Hux lays out his rationale in a rather calm, but heavily amplified speech. It isn't particularly rousing or animated, it's just loud and momentarily consistent. It actually kind of makes sense until you realize that it is just stating what a handful of people believe without any details or facts. It could have been "Happy Birthday, Mister President". The Republic doesn't stop the Resistance therefore needs to be destroyed. Presumably, the Resistance is what is left of the Rebel Alliance that isn't a member of the Republic. All the "scum" perhaps?

I wonder if this is what happens when you try to create "Space Fascists and Nazis" without really understanding them. We got the socialistic charismatic leader via Hux, we have the fascist pop-culture leader in Snoke. Unfortunately, Hux is doing Snoke's job wrong, and Snoke can't really be a public figure from hiding. Of course, see we see absolutely nothing of First Order society outside of the military, I could be completely wrong about their roles.

Noclevername
2016-Jul-17, 03:26 AM
I think you may be overthinking it.

The Old Republic/Empire was always more based on Roman history than Nazis, and in real life Western Rome's breakup left numerous remnants, fragments, stragglers, and pretenders to the throne for centuries afterwards.

NorthernDevo
2016-Jul-17, 08:34 AM
I wouldn't think so either. But they don't seem to match either the Empire or the Rebellion.

They seem to think the Republic is dangerous from the perspective of a member, former or otherwise. All of them have a perchance for using the words "traitor" and "betray". Hux lays out his rationale in a rather calm, but heavily amplified speech. It isn't particularly rousing or animated, it's just loud and momentarily consistent. It actually kind of makes sense until you realize that it is just stating what a handful of people believe without any details or facts. It could have been "Happy Birthday, Mister President". The Republic doesn't stop the Resistance therefore needs to be destroyed. Presumably, the Resistance is what is left of the Rebel Alliance that isn't a member of the Republic. All the "scum" perhaps?

I wonder if this is what happens when you try to create "Space Fascists and Nazis" without really understanding them. We got the socialistic charismatic leader via Hux, we have the fascist pop-culture leader in Snoke. Unfortunately, Hux is doing Snoke's job wrong, and Snoke can't really be a public figure from hiding. Of course, see we see absolutely nothing of First Order society outside of the military, I could be completely wrong about their roles.

The thing I love about the movie is how much substance people put into their arguments about how little substance the film has. ;)

CJSF
2016-Jul-17, 05:50 PM
It's implied in a few different ways that the particular kind of Stormtroopers we see in this film are programmed differently than the clone troopers are/were. They clearly have a wider emotional range and some capacity for discerning right from wrong (else Finn's story makes no sense whatsoever). I thought that scene was somewhat for comedic effect, and showed that childish (albeit dangerous, given his Force ability) tantrums are a matter of course when Kylo Ren is around.

CJSF

Noclevername
2016-Jul-17, 06:49 PM
It's implied in a few different ways that the particular kind of Stormtroopers we see in this film are programmed differently than the clone troopers are/were.

The movies really say very little about how the clones were programed and trained, save that a group of young clones was seen being educated onscreen. (I'm doing what Lucas did and totally ignoring the Expanded Universe and TV series.) As we only saw clonetroopers in combat, acting as highly trained and disciplined soldiers, we really have no basis for assuming what emotional range and personalities they had.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Jul-17, 06:52 PM
The movies really say very little about how the clones were programed and trained, save that a group of young clones was seen being educated onscreen. (I'm doing what Lucas did and totally ignoring the Expanded Universe and TV series.) As we only saw clonetroopers in combat, acting as highly trained and disciplined soldiers, we really have no basis for assuming what emotional range and personalities they had.

We know they had mundane jobs to do, and that one of them who looked to be in his 30s had never been in combat before. If the line troopers were busy elsewhere I could see that, but what else was going on that would take up so many that they had to deep dip to get bodies for an ad-hoc force to support Ren?

Noclevername
2016-Jul-17, 06:57 PM
We know they had mundane jobs to do, and that one of them who looked to be in his 30s had never been in combat before. If the line troopers were busy elsewhere I could see that, but what else was going on that would take up so many that they had to deep dip to get bodies for an ad-hoc force to support Ren?

Finn and his cohorts were boys taken as infants and raised to be fanatical troops like the Janissaries. I was talking about the Clone Troopers from the Second Trilogy.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Jul-17, 07:00 PM
Sorry, I didn't allow for thread drift.

starcanuck64
2016-Jul-22, 03:40 AM
Not too shabby, wish I'd seen this one at the theatre. I was very nice to see the old characters back and doing their thing.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Jul-22, 11:09 AM
Not too shabby, wish I'd seen this one at the theatre. I was very nice to see the old characters back and doing their thing.

Speaking of OLD, Chewy must be, what, 600 by now?

Noclevername
2016-Jul-22, 11:24 AM
Speaking of OLD, Chewy must be, what, 600 by now?

That's only 200 in Wookiee years.

starcanuck64
2016-Jul-22, 04:04 PM
Speaking of OLD, Chewy must be, what, 600 by now?

Not sure I'd want to run into a Wookiee with dementia....

Amber Robot
2016-Jul-22, 05:12 PM
I think you may be overthinking it.

The fact that JJ Abrams wrote the script proves you're overthinking it.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Jul-22, 05:34 PM
Not sure I'd want to run into a Wookiee with dementia....

That's what I told my wife. :whistle:

Noclevername
2016-Sep-18, 09:44 PM
Of course it's very sad about Han Solo, but at least now Chewie and Leia are free to marry as they had always talked about.

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Sep-18, 09:52 PM
Okay, what's the buzz about Kylo? Double or not?

CJSF
2016-Sep-19, 12:52 PM
Double what?

CJSF

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Sep-19, 04:17 PM
Double what?

CJSF

Double agent. Speculation going around that he's a plant that Luke put in place to foil Snoke.

DaveC426913
2016-Sep-19, 04:58 PM
Double agent. Speculation going around that he's a plant that Luke put in place to foil Snoke.

Well, Han's friends will be pretty peeved to find that out.
And Luke will have some pretty bloody egg on his face.

CJSF
2016-Sep-19, 04:59 PM
Double agent. Speculation going around that he's a plant that Luke put in place to foil Snoke.

Luke is playing some high stakes then, in killing off Han. That's a pretty big price to pay. Honestly, if the writers did that, I would trumpet Eps. 1 through 3 as high art through the land.

CJSF

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Sep-19, 05:30 PM
Well, Han's friends will be pretty peeved to find that out.
And Luke will have some pretty bloody egg on his face.

Killing Han was the one sure way to prove his allegiance to Snoke. Remember, "I know what I need to do..."

Noisy Rhysling
2016-Sep-19, 05:30 PM
Luke is playing some high stakes then, in killing off Han. That's a pretty big price to pay. Honestly, if the writers did that, I would trumpet Eps. 1 through 3 as high art through the land.

CJSF

I don't put anything past comic book movies.

Noclevername
2016-Sep-19, 05:50 PM
Not a double agent. He's too emotional, unstable and unpredictable for anyone to count on specific activities from him.