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View Full Version : If soccr/association football doesn't allow ties/draws



Inclusa
2014-Jun-10, 02:23 PM
Ice Hockey has adopted the "no-ties policy" a few years back (both in NHL and the Olympics).
What if the same is applied to soccer/association football?

Senior Service
2014-Jun-10, 02:26 PM
Then there wouldn't be draws? Extra time and a penalty shoot out would do it. But what is wrong with a draw? They can be better games than a one sided victory.

Amber Robot
2014-Jun-10, 04:58 PM
Games might naturally end when everyone leaves/quits due to boredom?

redshifter
2014-Jun-10, 05:12 PM
It might get more folks here in the USA interested in soccer.

John Mendenhall
2014-Jun-10, 06:26 PM
Games might naturally end when everyone leaves/quits due to boredom?

Isn't that part of Game Theory?

Seriously, refusing to admit ties panders to gambling interests. Even the baseball system, which doesn't require silliness like shootouts, is clumsy. But at least they're playing the game.

caveman1917
2014-Jun-10, 09:48 PM
The scoring system was changed some years ago to 3-1-0 instead of 2-1-0 for win-draw-loss in order to make teams fight more for a win. I have no idea if it actually helped though.

John Mendenhall
2014-Jun-10, 10:15 PM
Were I the lord high poobah of soccer I would do two things. One, forbid goaltending as is done in basketball. And two, cut down the field size to American football size Those soccer field cow pastures are boring ...

And yes, I have played the game. My favorite.

Jens
2014-Jun-10, 10:57 PM
I may be misunderstanding the question, but aren't ties forbidden in soccer tournaments?

caveman1917
2014-Jun-11, 12:58 AM
I may be misunderstanding the question, but aren't ties forbidden in soccer tournaments?

Depends on the tournament. If it's a knockout tournament (two teams play eachother and only one can go to the next round) then ties are forbidden (in the sense that if the match ends in a tie some means is applied to point out a winner), if it's not a knockout tournament then ties aren't forbidden. National leagues for instance aren't knockout tournaments, teams just get points throughout the season for each match and at the end the one with the most points wins (although if the first place is shared there will be some means applied to appoint a winner).

However i think the question was about having ties in individual matches forbidden, irrespective of the form of tournament those matches are played in.

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-11, 01:31 AM
If at full time it's still a tie:

1. For the next 5 minutes, hand-ball is allowed.

If still a tie:

2. For the next 5 minutes, off-side is also allowed.

If still a tie:

3. For the next 5 minutes, attackers (without the ball) may also throw rocks at opposition goalkeepers.

If still a tie, everyone leaves to have a Devonshire tea, and next week joins a Rugby Union club.

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jun-11, 04:04 AM
Nah, after 3 it's switch to Australian rules and keep playing until one team no longer has members capable of standing on their own.
If it's still a tie, the team with noone left standing will lose.

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-11, 05:38 AM
Nah, after 3 it's switch to Australian rules and keep playing until one team no longer has members capable of standing on their own.
If it's still a tie, the team with noone left standing will lose.

... says the reductionist!

novaderrik
2014-Jun-11, 07:03 AM
Nah, after 3 it's switch to Australian rules and keep playing until one team no longer has members capable of standing on their own.
If it's still a tie, the team with noone left standing will lose.

Is there also room for landmines and trap doors that open at random times in your new rules scheme?

NEOWatcher
2014-Jun-11, 01:02 PM
I may be misunderstanding the question, but aren't ties forbidden in soccer tournaments?
Yes, they are a choking hazard.

Inclusa
2014-Jun-11, 01:51 PM
I may be misunderstanding the question, but aren't ties forbidden in soccer tournaments?


Yes, they are a choking hazard.

This time around "draws" is the more precise word.


Depends on the tournament. If it's a knockout tournament (two teams play each other and only one can go to the next round) then ties are forbidden (in the sense that if the match ends in a tie some means is applied to point out a winner), if it's not a knockout tournament then ties aren't forbidden. National leagues for instance aren't knockout tournaments, teams just get points throughout the season for each match and at the end the one with the most points wins (although if the first place is shared there will be some means applied to appoint a winner).

However i think the question was about having ties in individual matches forbidden, irrespective of the form of tournament those matches are played in.

In NHL and Olympics Ice Hockey, ties are forbidden in ALL GAMES, although overtime losses are still compensated with 1 point.
To improve the common association football/soccer, a few suggestions:
1) A considerably smaller field (like a quarter smaller in size.)
2) Shorter time span (30 minutes, 2 periods.)
3)The power play rule from ice hockey? (11 players vs 10 players for a certain period.)

caveman1917
2014-Jun-12, 11:26 AM
In NHL and Olympics Ice Hockey, ties are forbidden in ALL GAMES, although overtime losses are still compensated with 1 point.
To improve the common association football/soccer, a few suggestions:
1) A considerably smaller field (like a quarter smaller in size.)
2) Shorter time span (30 minutes, 2 periods.)
3)The power play rule from ice hockey? (11 players vs 10 players for a certain period.)

So basically you want ice hockey but without the ice?

What forbidding ties does is force an attacking strategy, as much as i don't care about sports i don't see how reducing the number of viable strategies to a game can be considered an improvement. Your other changes seem to be geared towards the same end. It seems a bit like the calls for faster time controls in chess, not every game has to be about short adrenaline bursts.

Heid the Ba'
2014-Jun-12, 01:14 PM
Why would a smaller pitch help? There is little enough space as it is.

NEOWatcher
2014-Jun-12, 01:18 PM
I vote they play at least one tournament in Strahov Stadium (http://www.prague.net/stadion-strahov) using the entire field as the pitch.
That will really challange your player placement.

Fazor
2014-Jun-12, 01:24 PM
I enjoy soccer enough to endure all the "MLS isn't real soccer!" taunts and still hold season tickets for our local club. I don't enjoy when games end in a draw, but sometimes they can be a great strategic option. The only time a draw really bothers me are the draws of the nil - nil variety.

HenrikOlsen
2014-Jun-12, 08:01 PM
Is there also room for landmines and trap doors that open at random times in your new rules scheme?
Given "Australian rules" they wouldn't really add anything to the game.

Inclusa
2014-Jun-13, 12:32 AM
So basically you want ice hockey but without the ice?

What forbidding ties does is force an attacking strategy, as much as i don't care about sports i don't see how reducing the number of viable strategies to a game can be considered an improvement. Your other changes seem to be geared towards the same end. It seems a bit like the calls for faster time controls in chess, not every game has to be about short adrenaline bursts.

Powerplay is others' suggestion, not my own.
Games that involve shooting goals can be somewhat similar: Beach soccer (with considerably more goals), indoor soccer, handball, water polo, and more.
They are also some of the most common and understandable games.
Can someone explain the overwhelming worldwide popularity of soccer?

Trebuchet
2014-Jun-13, 02:44 AM
Can someone explain the overwhelming worldwide popularity of soccer?
I don't think "soccer" is all that popular. "Football", or "Futbol", on the other hand....

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-13, 05:22 AM
The whole "power play" thing annoys and confuses me. (Here, I mostly see it in 1 day cricket, and in the weird stuff they now have in Formula 1 racing).

It seems a very artificial way to induce some "excitement" or "action"; the apparent necessity of it implies to me that the base sport is in some way broken.

(
Which is not to say I think "broken" sports should all be canned. I've often thought about how the constant twiddling of the rules of Rugby Union (my favourite sport to watch) compared to the (to my knowledge) relative stability of Soccer/Football might mean Rugby is "broken" and soccer is "mature" ... but I still like to watch Rugby and am bored to death by most Soccer.
)

When I'm home I'll see if I can google up a youtube clip of the Futurama "we jazzed it up a little" version of Baseball ...

This doesn't have the Leela saying, but shows the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq1d07gYl8o - Multiball!

novaderrik
2014-Jun-16, 05:49 AM
a "power play" merely means that one or more players from a team is sitting off to the side somewhere serving a penalty while the rest of the team tries to compensate for being a man down until the penalty is served..

regarding the worldwide popularity of soccer: blame the British empire. they brought it to all of their colonies when they ruled the world.. this might also explain why it's not so popular in the USA, since we did fight a decade long war to not have to be British any more...

Nicolas
2014-Jun-16, 07:52 AM
So did India, and they're still all into cricket...

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-16, 08:06 AM
a "power play" merely means that one or more players from a team is sitting off to the side somewhere serving a penalty while the rest of the team tries to compensate for being a man down until the penalty is served..

...

That just seems a fancy ("jazzed up") word for the time when a player is off (in the "penalty box"). In Rugby Union, a Yellow card sees a player off the field for ten minutes (in the "sin bin"), a Red card for the rest of the game (and sometimes ineligible to play for the next few games). I can't recall ever hearing a special word for that time during the game.

(In the context of this thread (Soccer), they already have Red card for sending off, so I suppose the "power play" means introducing a limited-time send-off.)


The "power play" I was ranting about was the gimmicky stuff some sports do.

In one day cricket, there are times ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerplay_(cricket) ) when the fielding team has to have a certain number of their fielders inside a smaller boundary, closer to the wicket. That's to encourage bigger hitting for the spectacle.

In F1 they now have that DRS ( http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/14186/ ) thing that (to me) basically acts as a video-game-like "turbo boost" power-up. Mario carts with real petrol.

Oh goodness ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_play_(sporting_term) ) even snooker has power plays: "In Power Snooker, this arises when a player pots the power ball. This triggers a period of time whereby all points scored are doubled.".

Arneb
2014-Jun-17, 09:17 PM
Inclusa, I do get the impression that you just don't like soccer football very much, which is of course fair enough; maybe you are trying to imagine a game which would resemble football but which you would like, as it met your expectations - all the rule changes you propose would change the game fundamentally. But why would people who do love the game want to have it changed it down to its core?

Football has allowed important rule changes to take away tedious moments (the three player offside rule, the backpass rule). But I don't see at all why we should turn it into someting else. Also, the tie-breaking methods are simple and straightforwar:d 2x15 min of extra play, plus the penalty shootout with its own rules of speeding things up (first, five penalties each, then, one penalty each after that). They experimented with sudden death-type extra time (Germany winning the European championship on a Golden Goal in 1996, and France in 2000) but put it away again because teams tended to be so gripped by fear of making a decisive mistake that play pretty much stopped dead during extra time.

Watch football if you like 60 m passes, long periods of unbroken play, tactical nitty-gritty, weak teams digging into their trenches, waiting for their one golden opportunity to strike back at a technically superior opposition, endless back and forth, exciting goalless draws (yes, exciting - like the Brasil - Mexico match that just ended)... you name it. No gimmicks, no unnerving breaks for commercials, cheerleading and loud music. Just, you know, football Smaller pitch, shorter periods? You can still watch Futsal, which is pretty exciting in its own way - but is not football.

In the end, you are perfectly free not to like fthe sport - who could ever blame you. But don't think football has a popularity problem or is seen as too longwinded by the overwhelming majority of sports viewers all over the world.

Jens
2014-Jun-18, 10:59 PM
I know how you could make it more exciting. Just play as usual, but also have a tiny gold ball hidden somewhere in the pitch, and have one player from each team assigned to find the little ball. As soon as one does, his team gets 100 points and the game stops and the other players wonder why they spent the last hour uselessly trying to put the big ball into the goal...

Chuck
2014-Jun-19, 02:25 AM
Cat Soccer: A goal is worth two points but if the cat walks back out of the goal you lose a point.

Inclusa
2014-Jun-19, 03:49 AM
Just a note: I have yet to watch a full beach soccer match, but it seems an exciting sport to me.

Taeolas
2014-Jun-19, 02:21 PM
That just seems a fancy ("jazzed up") word for the time when a player is off (in the "penalty box"). In Rugby Union, a Yellow card sees a player off the field for ten minutes (in the "sin bin"), a Red card for the rest of the game (and sometimes ineligible to play for the next few games). I can't recall ever hearing a special word for that time during the game.


Is the team allowed to replace the penalized player? In the hockey power play, if a player is serving a penalty, then the team has to play a man down (4 on 5 hockey) until the penalty is expired (With a few exceptions depending on the severity of the penalty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_(ice_hockey)#Quick_reference_chart)).

Hockey also allows a team to pull their goalie to gain an extra attacker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_attacker) if they wish.

As for Football/Soccer, I never really got the appeal of it, and let it wash over me most of the time. Then again I don't pay attention to most sports (as a Canadian I'm genetically predisposed to Hockey but even that I tend to ignore most of the time. :) )

NEOWatcher
2014-Jun-19, 03:06 PM
Then again I don't pay attention to most sports
Same here, my predisposition is American Football but will follow a local team if it's being successful. (Not that it goes well (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?102031-The-Cleveland-(sports)-Syndrome) for me)

So; Sunday, I was at a restaurant facing a TV with one of the matches on. Not knowing the game, I was surpised at all the "Wimps" (from what I can tell). Oh, I have a booboo, so I have to writhe around for a while... get me a stretcher... Oh, never mind, I'm ok.

It wasn't until someone told me it's a strategy for getting a time out.

I didn't know there weren't time-outs in Soccer. Where do you put the commercials?

Trebuchet
2014-Jun-19, 03:46 PM
I didn't know there weren't time-outs in Soccer. Where do you put the commercials?
Half-time. Otherwise, play on. It's a major reason you don't see much soccer on American TV.

slang
2014-Jun-19, 07:23 PM
Is the team allowed to replace the penalized player?

One who is sent off? No. A yellow card (a Caution) is a warning, but getting a second yellow card means you automatically get a red card. Red card means you're expelled from that game, with no replacement player, and usually banned for at least one next game. Severe fouls may lead to an immediate red card (sent off). (Which can lead to funny situations when the three allowed substitutions have already been used, and the goalie gets sent off. This means a field-player must act as goalie, and usually they're pretty bad at that.) So, injury effects are often exaggerated because getting your opponent a yellow card, or even a red card, is such a tremendous advantage in the game.


It wasn't until someone told me it's a strategy for getting a time out.

Yeah, not a real time-out (no such thing), but it's often done to waste time, especially when close to the end of the game, when ahead. Sometimes it's amazing how quickly they "heal" when the ref doesn't acknowledge the "foul". Other reasons for screaming louder or amplifying effects of a foul can be to influence the referee, get the crowd fired up even more, mess with opponent's mind, etc etc. And sometimes there are real nasty injuries like torn hamstrings, knee ligaments, head injuries, etc. Not everything is fake.


I didn't know there weren't time-outs in Soccer. Where do you put the commercials?

At halftime. (2x 45 minutes play, 15 halftime: 10 minutes commercials, 5 minutes pundits. Or 15 mins pundits on some channels).

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-19, 07:47 PM
Is the team allowed to replace the penalized player? ...

No, otherwise it would just act like an enforced substitution, so the team can be down a player for ten minutes, or, the rest of the game.

Having said that, if the player off is the hooker, who does a special role in a scrum that can be dangerous for someone not trained, the team with the off-hooker can make a temporary substitution to get a reserve hooker on field (someone else has to go off field for this).

NEOWatcher
2014-Jun-19, 08:18 PM
Yeah, not a real time-out (no such thing), but it's often done...
Yes; all sorts of advantages to that.
Even LeBroning. That's where you fake an injury to hide the fact that you're playing badly.



At halftime. (2x 45 minutes play, 15 halftime: 10 minutes commercials, 5 minutes pundits. Or 15 mins pundits on some channels).
Wow 0% to 15%... In the US, standard fare is about 30%

novaderrik
2014-Jun-20, 07:24 AM
No, otherwise it would just act like an enforced substitution, so the team can be down a player for ten minutes, or, the rest of the game.

Having said that, if the player off is the hooker, who does a special role in a scrum that can be dangerous for someone not trained, the team with the off-hooker can make a temporary substitution to get a reserve hooker on field (someone else has to go off field for this).

Wait.. they have hookers?

pzkpfw
2014-Jun-20, 07:48 AM
Wait.. they have hookers?

Ahem, yes: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_positions#Hooker

JohnD
2014-Jun-20, 08:41 AM
The origins of association football are in the name. It was played as a 'league' of teams, all of whom would play each other during a season and accumulate points, win, lose or draw, until one team led the league at the end of the year. Then, draws didn't matter so much, and in fact became a feature of the "football pools", a form of lottery where predicting which and how many teams would draw their matches on a specific weekend became a parallel obsession, as sometimes people won as much money as in today's lotteries, millions of pounds in equivalent terms.

But then knock-out competitions were promoted and they require a result, so in those extra time was allowed of a mini-game of two 15 minute halves in the hope of extra goals, or else penalty shoot-outs with a certain number of single kicks at goal with only the keeper in the way are given to each team. "Sudden-death" extra time has also been tried - extra time, first goal settles the match. None of these are completely satisfactory - the anguish of the kickers and goalies when they fail at the shoot-out must be life shortening!

But how does ice hockey "forbid" draws? Does that game employ other tactics to ensure a result? How?

John

Taeolas
2014-Jun-20, 11:17 AM
But how does ice hockey "forbid" draws? Does that game employ other tactics to ensure a result? How?

John

In the NHL they do sudden death overtime periods. According to Wiki, it looks like it's a 5 minute period , followed by a shoot out (according to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_(ice_hockey)).

In the finals, the NHL has full-strength 20 minute O/T periods, with minimal interruptions (they don't have TV breaks, just a pause at 10 minutes to scrape the ice). The O/T periods repeat as needed until someone scores. Which if they go into multiple O/T periods, can lead to some very exhausted teams.

SeanF
2014-Jun-20, 03:19 PM
But how does ice hockey "forbid" draws? Does that game employ other tactics to ensure a result? How?
In baseball, they just keep playing until the score's not tied anymore. :)

Inclusa
2014-Jun-23, 01:32 AM
In the NHL they do sudden death overtime periods. According to Wiki, it looks like it's a 5 minute period , followed by a shoot out (according to wiki.

In the finals, the NHL has full-strength 20 minute O/T periods, with minimal interruptions (they don't have TV breaks, just a pause at 10 minutes to scrape the ice). The O/T periods repeat as needed until someone scores. Which if they go into multiple O/T periods, can lead to some very exhausted teams.

Darn, I haven't watched the NHL playoffs for years, but I know which teams win the cup.

JohnD
2014-Jun-23, 09:09 PM
But cricket, now!
Would you like me to tell you about drawn games in cricket?
How long have you got?

JOhn

Jens
2014-Jul-01, 05:39 AM
According to Wiki, it looks like it's a 5 minute period , followed by a shoot out (according to wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtime_(ice_hockey)).


If it's in America, that sounds dangerous. Do the players have to have gun permits, or is it permitted under the rules of the sport?

Inclusa
2014-Jul-03, 06:25 AM
If it's in America, that sounds dangerous. Do the players have to have gun permits, or is it permitted under the rules of the sport?

Come on, Jens; perhaps half of the world's ball games are shooting goal games, and they don't usually involve ammo of any types.
Let's get further: why are shooting goal ball games so popular?

Round Objects
2014-Jul-03, 06:51 AM
No, otherwise it would just act like an enforced substitution, so the team can be down a player for ten minutes, or, the rest of the game.

We got to see 14 vs. 14 in the Six Nations earlier this year :)

pzkpfw
2014-Jul-03, 09:43 AM
We got to see 14 vs. 14 in the Six Nations earlier this year :)

We had a game in the Super rugby this year, where a team lost a guy to a red card (very deservedly), then another for a yellow, so for ten minutes it was 15 x 13. The darn crusaders (with 15) still lost.

caveman1917
2014-Jul-03, 11:23 PM
Come on, Jens; perhaps half of the world's ball games are shooting goal games, and they don't usually involve ammo of any types.

Then what would you call the ball?

Jens
2014-Jul-04, 02:13 AM
Come on, Jens; perhaps half of the world's ball games are shooting goal games, and they don't usually involve ammo of any types.
Let's get further: why are shooting goal ball games so popular?

I guess I should have used a smiley. But anyway, about your question, I do have a hypothesis. I suspect it is the same reason that cats like playing with balls of string. It's practice for catching prey, and we are evolutionarily programmed to enjoy it.