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mickal555
2004-Dec-27, 06:46 AM
http://seven.com.au/news/topstories/148106
This is all over our news I know people who are holidaying in tailand

Kesh
2004-Dec-27, 07:01 AM
It's being discussed over here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18566&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sta rt=0), though John Kierein is trying to use it to promote 'axis tilt' garbage. #-o

jt-3d
2004-Dec-27, 07:03 AM
Yeah, one last disaster before we bid this year adieu. Great, ah well, these things happen.

skwirlinator
2004-Dec-27, 09:13 AM
Asian Tsunamis Kill at Least 13,340 People

http://rednova.com/news/display/?id=114301

I think this is terrible and I don't think I know a single person.
I expect the number to continue to climb as well. :cry: [/u]

PhantomWolf
2004-Dec-27, 09:56 AM
They are reporting the Death Toll as 16,000 and climbing over here. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it gets into up around 20,000+ from the waves and mre frm the disease and lack of resourses due to the infrastructure being wiped from the map.

We should cnsider that this is lucky in some ways. Considering the populations in this area, the death toll could have easily been in the millions.

Amadeus
2004-Dec-27, 11:16 AM
The bbc is now reporting it as a magnitude 9 quake.

Just got a newsflash. There has been another quake.
Didn't catch all the details but it's a 6 point somthing.

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2004-Dec-27, 11:55 AM
The bbc is now reporting it as a magnitude 9 quake.

Just got a newsflash. There has been another quake.
Didn't catch all the details but it's a 6 point somthing.

Typical After-Shock ...

Should be, A Few More, too ...

Argos
2004-Dec-27, 01:02 PM
The region is criss-crossed by ferry lines. I canīt see reports of wreckages. Maybe because tsunamis are not perceivable until they get too close to shore. It would be interesting having a sailor account.

Talking about tsunamis, last week I was reading an old National Geographic article about the Juan de Fuca plate. I was surprised to learn that Oregon and Washington are more prone to a devastating cataclism than California, and the people there donīt seem to be completely aware of the dangers involved. According to that article, the JDF plate has been building pressure for three centuries (since it last exploded by 1700), and it would be about to release it. Itīs frightening.

Sometimes I thank the stars for living 300 miles away from the ocean and 2,100 feet above sea level. That seems to suffice

Doodler
2004-Dec-27, 01:46 PM
CNN.com reported a 7.9 aftershock and the possibility of more tsunamis. With a slip of that scale, it doesn't look like its quite over yet.

Swift
2004-Dec-27, 02:41 PM
CNN.com is now reporting over 21,000. :cry:

Amadeus
2004-Dec-27, 05:57 PM
Skynews is reporting the toll as 23,000

30,000 missing from the Andaman and Nicobar Islands near the epicentre.
Whole villages there have been washed away.

Brady Yoon
2004-Dec-27, 06:00 PM
The tsunami seemed a little small for the earthquake of such size. I would have expected at least 20m.

I've noticed that death tolls in other countries are much higher than the ones in the United States...wow, 16,000 people. :(

Swift
2004-Dec-27, 06:08 PM
The tsunami seemed a little small for the earthquake of such size. I would have expected at least 20m.

I've noticed that death tolls in other countries are much higher than the ones in the United States...wow, 16,000 people. :(
I recall that the physics of tsunami are quite complicated (saw a TV program about them once). It depends on a lot more than just the earthquake magnitude, such as how deep the earthquake was, water depth, geography of the ocean floor in that area (including such things as whether it is level or on a slope), type of earthquake (the direction and amplitude of the earth vibrations generated), etc.

Not sure what you mean by the second sentence; do you mean US-based news sources are reporting lower numbers? At this moment CNN.com is saying at least 23,000. Or did you mean that similar earthquakes produce a smaller number of deaths if they happen in the US? If so, part of that might be the Tsunami warning system in place in the Pacific ocean basin.

Andromeda321
2004-Dec-27, 06:15 PM
Don't forget it also matters how deep the earthquake occurs in the crust for how big the triggered wave is. The translation here is the earthquake doesn't always nessecarily need to be right at the surface and can occur a few miles down, even. Also the resulting tsunami depends on the angle of the beach it washes up onto and it will be higher for a beach with a shallower angle etc.
Mickal I hope those people you know are ok. Same goes for everyone you BABBlers know. :(

Swift
2004-Dec-27, 06:20 PM
Mickal I hope those people you know are ok. Same goes for everyone you BABBlers know. :(
Which reminds me, don't we have some BABBlers in that part of the world?(Malaysia maybe??) I don't know how to search on location - can anyone help with a head count?

By the way, on the CNN.com website is a little "How they form" link
LINK (http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0412/tsunami.info/tsunami.info.gif)

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-27, 07:54 PM
Which reminds me, don't we have some BABBlers in that part of the world?(Malaysia maybe??)
Martin (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5397) is from Singapore.

Brady Yoon
2004-Dec-27, 11:24 PM
Or did you mean that similar earthquakes produce a smaller number of deaths if they happen in the US? If so, part of that might be the Tsunami warning system in place in the Pacific ocean basin.

Yeah, that's what I meant. I've never heard of an earthquake with a death toll higher than 1,000 in America... I think other countries need to keep a lookout for earthquake and tsunami dangers more. Many lives would be saved that way.

Kesh
2004-Dec-28, 12:25 AM
The strongest earthquake in North America (and second-strongest in the world) was the magnitude 9.2 1964 Alaskan Earthquake (http://www.aeic.alaska.edu/Seis/64quake/quake_description.html). That did massive damage to the city of Anchorage and neighboring regions, killing over 100, and caused a tsunami that killed 14 in Oregon.

The tragedy here is that this new quake was apparently in just the right position to cause a tsunami that would affect the most islands possible. :(

Doe, John
2004-Dec-28, 01:35 AM
Which reminds me, don't we have some BABBlers in that part of the world?(Malaysia maybe??)
Martin (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5397) is from Singapore.

Morrolan (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1909) is also.


edited to provide link

gzhpcu
2004-Dec-28, 03:34 AM
One of my best friends, his wife and son went down to the Thailand beach area! I am terribly worried! He was so happy to go down there!

2004-Dec-28, 10:35 AM
Unofficial reports coming in, of perhaps as many as 52,000 deaths. This just keeps getting worse!! It does put our trials and tribulations into perspective though, doesn't it?? :( :( :( :( :( :(

Amadeus
2004-Dec-28, 10:47 AM
One of my best friends, his wife and son went down to the Thailand beach area! I am terribly worried! He was so happy to go down there!

Do you know if it was on the east or the west of Thailand?
Looks like it was the west that got hit.

Good luck.

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-28, 12:30 PM
I've never heard of an earthquake with a death toll higher than 1,000 in America... I think other countries need to keep a lookout for earthquake and tsunami dangers more. Many lives would be saved that way.
Your comparison is meaningless without taking into account the population density in the U.S. vs. the population density in the area that was hit by this tsunami.
It's also meaningless without taking into account that the present tsunami hit several countries, none of which is as wealthy as the United States.

LunarOrbit
2004-Dec-28, 01:31 PM
This is so horrible... I feel so bad for the people affected. The news reported this morning that the death toll could be as high as 40,000. :(

Does Arthur C. Clarke still live in Sri Lanka?

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-28, 02:00 PM
He's alright (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=386898#386898), but part of the staff of his diving station is still missing.

Doodler
2004-Dec-28, 02:08 PM
Just verified a guy I gamed with online out of Malaysia was safe, he's about an hour from where the tsunami landed.

I've been hearing projected death tolls of 55,000, but I'm not putting any real faith in those numbers, the number of people so far verified dead is horrifying enough. The only way I can really wrap my head around the current tally is to take a sold out crowd at Camden Yards in Baltimore (32k, give or take Eutaw Street tourists), and consider them gone. Its still mindboggling.

Argos
2004-Dec-28, 02:10 PM
Thirty eight people died in Africa, but thatīs seldom noticed. They are ignored, as usual.

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-28, 02:12 PM
I heard in the news that Somalia had been hit by the tsunami, too. I don't think it's racism this time, Argos. It's just that that number pales in comparison to the number of victims in other countries.

gzhpcu
2004-Dec-28, 07:30 PM
One of my best friends, his wife and son went down to the Thailand beach area! I am terribly worried! He was so happy to go down there!

Do you know if it was on the east or the west of Thailand?
Looks like it was the west that got hit.

Good luck.

I really don't know... Trying to get in touch with his son, but so far no answer either....

beskeptical
2004-Dec-28, 08:35 PM
Once again in the age of information, 40-50,000 died because people failed to learn about tsunami dangers.

I saw the EQ report on the NEIC website about 3 hours after it had occurred. I knew what it meant having occurred in that part of the world because of the geography. Many folks were aware hours before the tsunami hit some of the most devastated areas. Did NOAA even call any government agencies? Did any government agencies have anyone at all who could put 2 + 2 together?

I realize there was no formal warning system in place. But surely there were phones. Did no one even think of it? Was there one phone call to a police station or big hotel or any other agency that might have warned some people?

I heard one report of a tourist getting a cell call from someone in Switzerland. They fled to higher ground. And I think a few persons went up hill when they felt the quake but clearly the numbers were minuscule.

Then there were the kids who ran out into the bays when the initial ocean pull back before the wave occurred, amazed by the sudden extreme low tide. These are all coastal areas. There have been tsunamis with great loss of life on many Indonesian and other islands and coastal areas in that part of the world in the past. Did none of these people learn that tsunamis are immediately preceded by such sudden extreme low tides? How could you think such unusual phenomenon was from the full Moon when nothing like that was ever caused by a full Moon in the past?

While a large portion of this tragedy was probably unavoidable given the poverty and circumstances in the areas hit the hardest, some loss of life was most definitely avoidable with just a tiny bit of common sense and minimal action such as teaching school kids what a sudden extreme low tide means and had some persons who were aware of the EQ at the time it occurred at least attempted to contact officials who might have been able to take some action even if it wasn't activating an official warning system.

And as everyone claims they will see this never happens again, you can be assured it will.

Swift
2004-Dec-28, 08:58 PM
I read in the paper today (Cleveland Plain Dealer, probably a wire service story) that the Thai government issued something like a high-surf / undertow warning. Even that warning wasn't received in some areas till after the waves hit.

PyroFreak
2004-Dec-28, 09:01 PM
USA Today says toll now surpasses 52,000

Argos
2004-Dec-28, 09:14 PM
This blog (http://sumankumar.com/)(*) by an Indian guy (recommended by the NYT) is constantly fed with updated info about the event, if you want to keep track of the aftermaths. People there are fearing that a biological cataclism (the spreading of diseases due to organic material decay) will add colors in the next days.

(*) It had exceeded bandwidth limit last time I tried to access. Thanks to the NYT advertising, I presume.

Doodler
2004-Dec-28, 10:23 PM
Once again in the age of information, 40-50,000 died because people failed to learn about tsunami dangers.

I saw the EQ report on the NEIC website about 3 hours after it had occurred. I knew what it meant having occurred in that part of the world because of the geography. Many folks were aware hours before the tsunami hit some of the most devastated areas. Did NOAA even call any government agencies? Did any government agencies have anyone at all who could put 2 + 2 together?

I realize there was no formal warning system in place. But surely there were phones. Did no one even think of it? Was there one phone call to a police station or big hotel or any other agency that might have warned some people?

I heard one report of a tourist getting a cell call from someone in Switzerland. They fled to higher ground. And I think a few persons went up hill when they felt the quake but clearly the numbers were minuscule.

Then there were the kids who ran out into the bays when the initial ocean pull back before the wave occurred, amazed by the sudden extreme low tide. These are all coastal areas. There have been tsunamis with great loss of life on many Indonesian and other islands and coastal areas in that part of the world in the past. Did none of these people learn that tsunamis are immediately preceded by such sudden extreme low tides? How could you think such unusual phenomenon was from the full Moon when nothing like that was ever caused by a full Moon in the past?

While a large portion of this tragedy was probably unavoidable given the poverty and circumstances in the areas hit the hardest, some loss of life was most definitely avoidable with just a tiny bit of common sense and minimal action such as teaching school kids what a sudden extreme low tide means and had some persons who were aware of the EQ at the time it occurred at least attempted to contact officials who might have been able to take some action even if it wasn't activating an official warning system.

And as everyone claims they will see this never happens again, you can be assured it will.


Life in the third world, what did you expect? Most areas are barely at the early 20th century in terms of the communications technology. Cell phones are wonderful things for personal communication, but when you have a regional telecommunications grid that's several decades behind the times, you can call Dubya himself and not change the outcome for the rest of the affected area. Heck, there were two islands of the Indian coast that had spotty communications with the mainland on a GOOD day. Just as there are hazards of Information Age life in the undeveloped world, there are hazards that are a part of the developed world. You take your chances either way.

Even a few hours warning in a massively developed city will have high casualty counts. A tsunami of that scale hitting Seattle, Los Angeles or San Diego would probably still kill a substantial number of people who don't have access to information, or have no independent means of getting out of the way (Homeless, people stuck at work with no access to a TV, perhaps?). Can you imagine the mess with several million people trying to get clear even with adequate warning? You'd still have 5 digit body counts from the evacuation BEFORE the wave hit. Everyone in the affected areas trying to run for the hills in the few hours ahead of a wave would cause more snarls in traffic than you'd care to imagine, and with the way people in this country get hyped up at the slightest risk to their safety? Jeezus, it would be a mess.

You're dead right, education on the signs of a tsunami is grossly lacking, but having been told there'd be little risk of them (low risk of tsunamis and a rip tide warning?), most people would assume nothing's wrong and go about their business so long as they avoided the water. There's didn't appear to be any institutional memory based on previous experience with tsunamis at work here. Sri Lankan officals admitted they'd never had an incident like this and were not prepared because it was never considered a prime risk. It was partly that the risk was underestimated, it was also a factor that the risk had never been considered.

Lurker
2004-Dec-28, 10:36 PM
There were lots of frantic attempts to warn governments and people in the countries where so much life was lost. The unfortunate truth is that there was no way for that information to be quickly and effectively communicated to those in danger. Many tried, but it was to no avail... That to me is the real tragedy!!! :(

Glom
2004-Dec-28, 10:49 PM
This has to be the worst natural disaster on record. Given how touristy those regions are, I am pleasantly surprised the death toll is not worse.

The epicentre was near Indonesia. With tsunamis, doesn't is get worse the further away you are?

01101001
2004-Dec-29, 12:14 AM
There were lots of frantic attempts to warn governments and people in the countries where so much life was lost.
Scientists in USA saw the tsunami coming (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-12-28-tsunami_warning_usat_x.htm)


"We put out a bulletin within 20 minutes, technically as fast as we could do it," says Jeff LaDouce of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. LaDouce says e-mails were dispatched to Indonesian officials, but he doesn't know what happened to the information.
[...]
LaDouce notes that warnings are of little use without evacuation plans, given how quickly a tsunami can travel. Tsunami waves struck Sumatra minutes after the quake and hit Thailand within an hour.

"Even if you give the tourist resorts in Thailand a half-hour's notice, it is no easy matter to evacuate vast swaths of coastland," he says. "You have to plan and train people. And then do it all over again."

cyswxman
2004-Dec-29, 12:46 AM
The death toll continues to climb!! It's mind-boggling! :o :o
How far inland did the waters reach, I wonder?

Maksutov
2004-Dec-29, 02:00 AM
This has to be the worst natural disaster on record. Given how touristy those regions are, I am pleasantly surprised the death toll is not worse.[edit]
It's a terrible event, but far from the worst. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387579#387579)

Makgraf
2004-Dec-29, 02:13 AM
I heard in the news that Somalia had been hit by the tsunami, too. I don't think it's racism this time, Argos. It's just that that number pales in comparison to the number of victims in other countries.
I heard that by the time the wave reached Somalia the message that it was coming had gotten out, so people had time to evacuate, leading to dramitically less deaths. It's really mindboggling how many lives could've been saved with better communications. Also mindboggling how the quake moved the island of Sumatra, which is larger than California, 100 feet.

beskeptical
2004-Dec-29, 06:21 AM
This blog (http://sumankumar.com/)(*) by an Indian guy (recommended by the NYT) is constantly fed with updated info about the event, if you want to keep track of the aftermaths. People there are fearing that a biological cataclism (the spreading of diseases due to organic material decay) will add colors in the next days.

(*) It had exceeded bandwidth limit last time I tried to access. Thanks to the NYT advertising, I presume.The infamous dead bodies spread disease myth. Actually, they don't.

Infectious disease spreads due to contaminated water sources. The wells are contaminated with overflowing raw sewage. That poses the highest risk. In the affected areas, mosquito populations can increase quickly with the standing water and Malaria can increase.

There is a very small risk draining body fluids from the deceased can contaminate water sources further, but the risk is relative.

Here are some sources I posted on another thread. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387671#387671)

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-29, 11:25 AM
60, 000 (http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=accueil_info&lng=1&option=0,h ome) dead. Oh, my God! :o

Argos
2004-Dec-29, 12:01 PM
This blog (http://sumankumar.com/)(*) by an Indian guy (recommended by the NYT) is constantly fed with updated info about the event, if you want to keep track of the aftermaths. People there are fearing that a biological cataclism (the spreading of diseases due to organic material decay) will add colors in the next days.

(*) It had exceeded bandwidth limit last time I tried to access. Thanks to the NYT advertising, I presume.The infamous dead bodies spread disease myth. Actually, they don't.

Infectious disease spreads due to contaminated water sources. The wells are contaminated with overflowing raw sewage. That poses the highest risk. In the affected areas, mosquito populations can increase quickly with the standing water and Malaria can increase.

There is a very small risk draining body fluids from the deceased can contaminate water sources further, but the risk is relative.

Here are some sources I posted on another thread. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387671#387671)

Yeah, youīre right. Itīs a widespread belief, even among health pros. In fact, according to the WHO, the main risk is posed by the survivors. Dr. Maria Connely, of the relief team, says, on the NYT:

Disease transmission requires the presence of an infectious agent and exposure to it. So if bodies are infected with an organism, they can spread disease and start outbreaks(...) most infectious agents do not survive long enough in the human body after death. So the most likely source of outbreaks is from survivors

According to the NYT, "health officials are concerned about cholera and other infectious agents present in the affected areas".

TriangleMan
2004-Dec-29, 12:42 PM
Latest BBC report has 67,000 dead and expectations are it will continue to rise. Indonesia reports over 30,000 dead in that country alone and there are still many areas that haven't been reached by crews. Entire villages have been wiped out. :(

mickal555
2004-Dec-29, 01:40 PM
Latest BBC report has 67,000 dead and expectations are it will continue to rise. Indonesia reports over 30,000 dead in that country alone and there are still many areas that haven't been reached by crews. Entire villages have been wiped out. :(
oh my god................... :( :cry: :cry: :(

Swift
2004-Dec-29, 02:23 PM
The death toll continues to climb!! It's mind-boggling! :o :o
How far inland did the waters reach, I wonder?
My impression (sorry, no data) is not very far, maybe even as little as a one or a couple of kilometers, but there is a lot of population right at the coast. I also suspect that since it was daytime, that people that work on the coast (fishermen) were there.

Doodler
2004-Dec-29, 02:42 PM
Both from CNN, the waters reached about a half mile inland in Thailand, and they are now calling the death toll at 71,000. Utterly tragic.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/12/28/quake.sumatra.reut/index.html

As much as 98 feet of movement for the sea floor and a pair of island groups are an unknown distance further out to sea from Indonesia. Huge doesn't even begin to describe this monster, it changed the map...

worzel
2004-Dec-29, 03:21 PM
Terrible news. I have two Sri Lankan colleagues. One was in Sri Lanka getting married at the time, thankfully his family are all on the west side. The other has lost some of his extended family there.

The epicentre was near Indonesia. With tsunamis, doesn't is get worse the further away you are?
Is this one of those urban myths? My mother said something about it building up the longer it travels which at the time I thought sounded silly. They do slow and get higher as the water shallows but would it make it any worse if it had started from further away?

TriangleMan
2004-Dec-29, 03:48 PM
Both from CNN, the waters reached about a half mile inland in Thailand,
A BBC telecast said in some low-lying areas of Indonesia the wave went up to 6km inland (about 3.75 miles).

Hutch
2004-Dec-29, 04:20 PM
The infamous dead bodies spread disease myth. Actually, they don't.

Infectious disease spreads due to contaminated water sources. The wells are contaminated with overflowing raw sewage. That poses the highest risk. In the affected areas, mosquito populations can increase quickly with the standing water and Malaria can increase.

There is a very small risk draining body fluids from the deceased can contaminate water sources further, but the risk is relative.

Here are some sources I posted on another thread. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387671#387671)


I think the main worry from dead bodies, besides the smell, is that rats and fleas attracted by the dead flesh might carry diseases that could lead to infections.

But I concur that Cholera and Malaria are the two biggest threats right now to those left alive. Hope the medicos can get in there fast.

Doodler
2004-Dec-29, 04:46 PM
It just keeps getting worse, 80 thousand and climbing, with this little sidebar on the effect on Earth. Looks like we've been given a bit more time till we're tidelocked.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/12/29/quake.wobble.reut/index.html

I think this is what another thread had mislabeled as a increase in Earth's mass is more like a increase in density, resulting in a slightly faster rotation. 3 microseconds, per this article.

edit: fixed a flubbed unit of measure.

Donnie B.
2004-Dec-29, 05:17 PM
Terrible news. I have two Sri Lankan colleagues. One was in Sri Lanka getting married at the time, thankfully his family are all on the west side. The other has lost some of his extended family there.

The epicentre was near Indonesia. With tsunamis, doesn't is get worse the further away you are?
Is this one of those urban myths? My mother said something about it building up the longer it travels which at the time I thought sounded silly. They do slow and get higher as the water shallows but would it make it any worse if it had started from further away?
I'd have to say it's a myth, but with some justification. Perhaps the reason people think tsunamis get worse with increasing distance is that we intuitively expect such phenomena to follow an inverse square law, as with light and sound waves that spread out in three dimensions. A tsunami is essentially a two-dimensional phenomenon (an expanding circle) and its energy is carried at the outer edge rather than spread throughout the circle, so the energy in any given segment of that circle falls off slower than you might expect with distance.

So, a simple inverse law should hold, under ideal conditions. The energy carried away by the wave will remain constant except for small losses to friction, but as it moves further from the epicenter its energy is spread over a larger linear distance. It goes as the circumfrence of a circle to its radius.

What doesn't happen (as you might expect) is much spreading out of the wave radially (that is, broadening of the crest). Water is incompressible, so there's little means for the energy to be dissipated until the wave encounters an obstacle.

Of course, many second-order factors can come into play, especially as the wave enters shallow water or restricted areas. It can refract and reflect, and even be focused (or defocused) due to the details of the topography. As worzel points out, the wave will slow and heighten as it nears shore - but again, the total energy is essentially unchanged.

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-29, 05:36 PM
The epicentre was near Indonesia. With tsunamis, doesn't is get worse the further away you are?
Is this one of those urban myths? My mother said something about it building up the longer it travels which at the time I thought sounded silly. They do slow and get higher as the water shallows but would it make it any worse if it had started from further away?
I'd have to say it's a myth, but with some justification. Perhaps the reason people think tsunamis get worse with increasing distance is that we intuitively expect such phenomena to follow an inverse square law, as with light and sound waves that spread out in three dimensions.
Perhaps what people mean is that tidal waves can be unremarkable on the open sea, and they only become sizeable as they reach the coast...

Donnie B.
2004-Dec-29, 05:52 PM
Perhaps what people mean is that tidal waves can be unremarkable on the open sea, and they only become sizeable as they reach the coast...
That's quite true, of course, but it's not really what Glom said. In any case, I can't see any justification for the idea that tsunamis are worse "the farther away you are". Cleary the most devastating physical impact of this one was in Sumatra, the closest landfall. But exigent circumstances made it terrible at other locations, too.

Is anyone beginning to get somewhat numbed by these ever-rising casualty figures? It's just inconceivable...

Vega115
2004-Dec-29, 05:55 PM
This whole thing...is, well, for the lack of a better word - awesome. I don't mean that in a "This is so COOL!" connotation...i mean the literal definition: causing awe. I can not imagine watching a 30-40 foot wall of water coming at me...*shudders*

My heart goes out to everyone in Asia who lost someone, and to these here who knew someone there that they have not heard back from.

I always thought I was safe from tsunami's, being on the East Coast and all. Then on the news, they mentioned this volcano island in the Canary Islands; they said that if the volcano erupts with enough force, it could cause an entire half of the island into the atlantic ocean, thus creating a pretty-darn-big tsunami, heading towards the east coast. Hopefully it wont happen in my lifetime.

As of this post, the news is reporting the death toll to be 80,000+, with it expected to top 100,000 or more. I can't begin to imagine what the cost of disaster in monetary units is going to be...i would not be surprised if it topped 1 trillion or more. :(

beskeptical
2004-Dec-29, 07:23 PM
The pictures and clips of the waves rushing in are fascinating even if terrible.

Another lesson for us, the first wave is not always the biggest. That happened in the AK quake as well. The first wave awoke and alerted those in Port Alberni, Canada and folks knew to still evacuate.

I remembered another astonishing fact that is incomprehensible to me and certainly would have increased the death toll in Indonesia, anyway. A while back on one of those 'why certain people survive' programs they featured a handful of folks who survived a ferry sinking in Indonesia. All of them were foreigners. It turned out Indonesians for the most part never learn to swim. [shakes head in disbelief]

Doodler
2004-Dec-29, 07:38 PM
i would not be surprised if it topped 1 trillion or more. :(

I wouldn't quite go that far. As cold as it might sound on the surface, though the devastation was extensive, a lot of what was destroyed wasn't exactly high cost construction (yeah, the resorts and whatnot were probably western spec buildings, and yes they are important to the economies of these countries, but they were a minority of the overall damage caused). I don't mean this in a derrogatory way, just addressing the reality of the economics. Most of the places completely destroyed were small villages, not major cities. That being said, a near 100 billion tab, that I can see, especially if what is rebuilt is of better quality than what was destroyed.

Makgraf
2004-Dec-29, 09:53 PM
Someone wrote in my local newspaper that perhaps the "silver lining" of the tragedy is that it might cause people to put aside politics and end the violent civil wars in say Aceh province and Sri Lanka. Well given that Sri Lanka has rejected an Israeli rescue mission (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4130599.stm), putting politics above the lives of their own citizens, it seems doubtful that they'll turn around and make peace with the Tamils.

Brady Yoon
2004-Dec-30, 04:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsunami

It says "megatsunamis" higher than 100m can occur... Wow, I can't imagine how many people would die if one of those hit.

Brady Yoon
2004-Dec-30, 04:05 AM
Does anyone know how high a tsunami would occur if an 10 km asteroid hit the middle of an ocean?

Careless
2004-Dec-30, 04:54 AM
I'm in Medan, north sumatra Indonesia right now. My plane took off for taipei (from San fran) about the time the tsunamis started hitting land. Luckily my fiancee's family lives maybe 150 miles SE along the sumatra coast from the southernmost damage on the eastern side of the island. If they didn't, they live on houses over the ocean on stilts, so they'd have been in a lot of trouble. Medan seems to be a staging point for the relief effort to aceh. the hotel is full of australian military, mostly medics and pilots. Surprisingly, medan itself is fine despite the fairly powerful earthquake. I wouldn't have known there was anythnig wrong and didn't know about the tsunami until after I left the airport here, about 20 hours after they hit.

worzel
2004-Dec-30, 10:00 AM
What struck me about all the video clips of the tsunamis I've seen is that they don't look as bad as I thought they would. While I in no way wish to claim that they weren't horrifically devistating, after hearing about 10m walls of water and speeds of 500mph I was expecting something quite dfiferent to what I saw. You could hardly tell they were coming except for the fact they didn't stop where normal waves would, but just kept moving relentlessly forward. Judging by some of the videos I would imagine that many people videoing them didn't realise how serious they were either.

Yorkshireman
2004-Dec-30, 11:33 AM
BBC News was reporting 84,000 dead (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4133971.stm) this morning, and more aftershock warnings.

Sarvodaya (http://www.sarvodaya.lk)is a voluntary relief charity in Sri Lanka (& it's endorsed by Arthur Clarke), they have a website where you can make donations.

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-30, 01:14 PM
Well given that Sri Lanka has rejected an Israeli rescue mission (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4130599.stm), putting politics above the lives of their own citizens [...]
From that link:


Sri Lanka restored diplomatic ties with Israel in 2000, despite objections from the island's Muslim minority.

Neither side has officially explained the change of plan, although some reports say the objection came from Sri Lanka's military.

Sri Lanka Ambassador Diffa Digeratna is quoted by Jerusalem Post as saying that the change was due to the "the lack of accommodations in Colombo".

TriangleMan
2004-Dec-30, 02:07 PM
Death toll now reported to be over 112,000 as Indonesian authorities start reaching towns along the coast of Sumatra. :(

Argos
2004-Dec-30, 04:23 PM
What struck me about all the video clips of the tsunamis I've seen is that they don't look as bad as I thought they would. While I in no way wish to claim that they weren't horrifically devistating, after hearing about 10m walls of water and speeds of 500mph I was expecting something quite dfiferent to what I saw. You could hardly tell they were coming except for the fact they didn't stop where normal waves would, but just kept moving relentlessly forward. Judging by some of the videos I would imagine that many people videoing them didn't realise how serious they were either.

I think that it is not totally correct to describe a tsunami as being analogous to a run-of-the-mill, wind-generated wave, only bigger. Indeed I think itīs a deservice. As people are educated with misconceptions they are not as well prepared as they should. If the fact that tsunamis are a sudden elevation of the sea level, and not a neat, breaking wave, was properly conveyed to the people, I think that they would know that something was terribly wrong when the first "waves" began to sweep the shore.

A Thousand Pardons
2004-Dec-30, 04:34 PM
If the fact that tsunamis are a sudden elevation of the sea level, and not a neat, breaking wave, was properly conveyed to the people, I think that they would know that something was terribly wrong when the first "waves" began to sweep the shore.
I think that they knew something was wrong pretty quickly. I'm not even sure what distinction you are trying to draw--could you elaborate some more?

worzel
2004-Dec-30, 05:01 PM
If the fact that tsunamis are a sudden elevation of the sea level, and not a neat, breaking wave, was properly conveyed to the people, I think that they would know that something was terribly wrong when the first "waves" began to sweep the shore.
I think that they knew something was wrong pretty quickly. I'm not even sure what distinction you are trying to draw--could you elaborate some more?
On one video the first wave just kept coming in, not very fast, not very ominous looking except for its relentlessness. If I were there I would have thought "wow, big wave". I never would have recognized it as a tidal wave and wouldn't have suspected there might be much worse to come. I falsely believed that tidal waves hit land as huge walls of water moving at hundreds of miles an hour and that if you see one coming you're already too late. Clearly my ignorance could have cost me my life if I were there at the time.

Another video from two stories up showed the second one come in. It was only when it engulfed the hotel that you could hear the fimler suddenly lose interest in filming and declare "we've got to get out of here".

Argos
2004-Dec-30, 05:07 PM
If the fact that tsunamis are a sudden elevation of the sea level, and not a neat, breaking wave, was properly conveyed to the people, I think that they would know that something was terribly wrong when the first "waves" began to sweep the shore.
I think that they knew something was wrong pretty quickly. I'm not even sure what distinction you are trying to draw--could you elaborate some more?

Images are useful to reinforce concepts when you are trying to teach someone about something, ok? What people "know" about tsunamis is that they are like Waimea, perfectly shaped waves, with a breaking crest, many feet, maybe 100, high. Thatīs the image people use to refer to this phenomenon.

When you are on the beach and donīt see the 100 feet monster Hawaii 5.0 wall, then you donīt realize, not immeadiately at least, that you are caught by a tsunami. This image does not correspond to what was taught to you. So, why run? lets stay a little bit more to see the big waves.

In many places, people even got to enjoy the show, according to eyewitness accounts, because the "waves" were not frightening enough. They didnīt know that something was wrong until they found themselves being washed away by the water.

I might be wrong, but if we have to educate people, then lets conceptualize things precisely. Remember: "quod abundant non nocet" :wink:

sarongsong
2004-Dec-30, 05:30 PM
"The National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) is assisting U.S. government agencies in their effort to assess the extent and scope of damage caused by the December 26th tsunami in the Indian Ocean...on a daily basis to: the U.S. Agency for International Development's Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance (OFDA); the U.S. Pacific Command (USPACOM), in whose region the tsunami occurred; and to other U.S. government agencies supporting humanitarian relief activities...Geospatial intelligence is the exploitation and analysis of imagery and geospatial information to describe, assess and visually depict physical features and geographically referenced activities on the Earth..."
http://www.nga.mil/NGASiteContent/StaticFiles/OCR/nga0413.pdf

beskeptical
2004-Dec-30, 06:36 PM
If the fact that tsunamis are a sudden elevation of the sea level, and not a neat, breaking wave, was properly conveyed to the people, I think that they would know that something was terribly wrong when the first "waves" began to sweep the shore.
I think that they knew something was wrong pretty quickly. I'm not even sure what distinction you are trying to draw--could you elaborate some more?

Images are useful to reinforce concepts when you are trying to teach someone about something, ok? What people "know" about tsunamis is that they are like Waimea, perfectly shaped waves, with a breaking crest, many feet, maybe 100, high. Thatīs the image people use to refer to this phenomenon.

When you are on the beach and donīt see the 100 feet monster Hawaii 5.0 wall, then you donīt realize, not immediately at least, that you are caught by a tsunami. This image does not correspond to what was taught to you. So, why run? lets stay a little bit more to see the big waves.

In many places, people even got to enjoy the show, according to eyewitness accounts, because the "waves" were not frightening enough. They didnīt know that something was wrong until they found themselves being washed away by the water.

I might be wrong, but if we have to educate people, then lets conceptualize things precisely. Remember: "quod abundant non nocet" :wink:I agree with you Argos.

There are lots of film clips being shown on the news. Where the initial waves are small but come up into the hotels, people are getting out of the way and you can see even laughing. At that point the water is ankle deep or maybe knee deep and even though a lot of beach furniture has been washed inland, the devastating force on its way is clearly not evident to the people there.

Then there are two particular clips showing the impressive danger. One is in a hotel and one person has climbed onto a ledge. There has already been a small wave. Then a much bigger one comes in and you see two people try to get to the ledge but instead get swept away.

And the most impressive clip is of people on a second floor somewhere. There is a couple hugging in the foreground and crying can be heard. Outside there is a tremendous brown rushing river as far as the eye can see. It is almost as high as the second floor they are on.

That is the image people need to see. Since anyone who's been to the beach can picture running away from a wave, it is very hard to imagine how such a wave can do such damage. And seeing ankle deep water come up to your hotel door just doesn't look very hazardous. But the image of the tremendous rushing water outside that 2nd story window is unmistakably frightening.

beskeptical
2004-Dec-30, 07:03 PM
BBC news clip link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/4129533.stm#)
Go to the video: Amateur footage, play it and the rushing river scene is at about 1 min 15 sec. It is pretty short but the image is clearly what a real tsunami looks like.

Mount St Helens was similar. No one really imagined what was possible. Even though the warnings were abundant. I went camping near the mountain with a friend several times before the May 18th event. He kept telling me we shouldn't go and I kept saying we were far enough away. We wouldn't have been far enough away though we were on the south side so luck would have saved us. The site we had camped at several times had about 6+ inches of ash and the very big mountain we had been looking at was now barely visible above the horizon. I can't tell you how close we had been camping. Definitely dumb.

Argos
2004-Dec-31, 01:27 PM
There are lots of film clips being shown on the news. Where the initial waves are small but come up into the hotels, people are getting out of the way and you can see even laughing. At that point the water is ankle deep or maybe knee deep and even though a lot of beach furniture has been washed inland, the devastating force on its way is clearly not evident to the people there.

Corroborating all this, here are three passages fromthis NYT story (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/31/international/worldspecial4/31wave.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=41eeabf20494d0 e5&hp&ex=1104555600&partner=homepage)

1)"The tide was supposed to be falling, but it was rising," Mr. Hamisi, the harbor master, recalled. "I went to the water, and we saw it moving really fast. I thought a pipe might be broken in the port. It was like seeing the sun setting in the east," he said. "The tide was crazy. The water wasn't following the rules."

2)"There were still people swimming when the waves began to churn with more force."

3)Mr. Kadir had hurried Sunday morning to a seaside market at the tip of the island of Sumatra for emergency supplies after the initial earthquake struck. It was at the market, a few minutes later, that he said he had looked far out to sea and noticed something strange: the waterline was dipping off to the sides and rising furiously in the middle. "The water separated, then it attacked," he said. "I've never even seen anything like it in the movies. I couldn't imagine anything like it."

We have to do a better job informing people in the future, especially in sea-side earthquake-prone areas.

Know your enemy.

Tranquility
2004-Dec-31, 01:55 PM
What's disturbing is also that these are death tolls, not including people who are missing. Quite likely that a lot of the "missing" people are dead people washed out to sea.

Gmann
2004-Dec-31, 02:05 PM
The thing that struck me the most is the wave itself. It didn't look like the preconcieved idea I have in mind for this sort of thing. I expected to see the large, looming breaker heading for the beach, with all of the people on the beach looking at it as if to say "uh oh". It didn't look like that at all, it looked like a fairly normal, but more turbulent incoming wave that kept coming. It is amazing just how much damage can happen in such a short time. Hopefully, the world will find a way to put aside some of the petty differences that exist, and concentrate on what is really important. It is mindboggling to think that in just a minute or so, 120,000+ (the number keeps climbing) people were killed. :cry:

kucharek
2004-Dec-31, 03:07 PM
I've seen some photographs where the wave looked more like the expected wave, not just a rising sea level. I guess, those who were at a place with such waves didn't survive to tell the tale.

It is really shocing that we are now talking about an order of magnitude higher death count than in the subject line of this thread.

It shines a new light on globalization that from the point of body count - if the expected figures really materialize - this is the worst natural desaster ever happened for many European countries in modern times.

Harald

gzhpcu
2004-Dec-31, 03:29 PM
Just heard from my friends today! Incredible luck. On the day of the disaster, they opted to go inland instead of to the beach. A last minute decision!!!

Amadeus
2004-Dec-31, 04:24 PM
there is another problem that may come back to haunt the people effected. The news said a few days back that there was a serious problem of land mines being moved about by this flood.

I know a lot of mines are plastic to avoid detection. could these be now floating around the world? Also the beaches in the area would have to be checked frequently to check if any new mines have washed ashore.
Seeing as a lot of people in the area depend on tourism for their livelyhood this is not good news. :cry:

A Thousand Pardons
2004-Dec-31, 04:34 PM
I know a lot of mines are plastic to avoid detection. could these be now floating around the world?
If one washes ashore in Seattle, I know we'll hear about it

beskeptical
2004-Dec-31, 07:30 PM
I know a lot of mines are plastic to avoid detection. could these be now floating around the world?
If one washes ashore in Seattle, I know we'll hear about it???????

Not sure the currents would direct them this way. It's a good point though that they may very well drift.

beskeptical
2004-Dec-31, 07:37 PM
There are lots of film clips being shown on the news. Where the initial waves are small but come up into the hotels, people are getting out of the way and you can see even laughing. At that point the water is ankle deep or maybe knee deep and even though a lot of beach furniture has been washed inland, the devastating force on its way is clearly not evident to the people there.

Corroborating all this, here are three passages fromthis NYT story (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/31/international/worldspecial4/31wave.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=41eeabf20494d0 e5&hp&ex=1104555600&partner=homepage)
.........Know your enemy.That picture is incredible. That is what I pictured a tsunami looking like, I guess because I've seen other pictures. But you can see not everyone there realizes what they are looking at. There is one woman not even heading into shore.

Disinfo Agent
2004-Dec-31, 07:47 PM
The caption says that "the water had receded before the deadly wave struck". Those of us who have watched Japanese animation know what that means, but I wonder how quickly the water recedes in real life. Perhaps it just looked like a change of tide, like in the report (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=388683#388683) that Argos posted.

beskeptical
2004-Dec-31, 08:39 PM
I remember the first hand accounts by the Hilo, HI 1946 survivors. The survivors were from the school where lots of kids and teachers died. The survivors reported the tide went way out and the kids went out to see the fish flopping around. There were similar reports from the recent event.

Here are two descriptions which include a time estimate.
Tsunamis: Killer Waves (http://geology.about.com/cs/basics_hazard/a/aa072698.htm)

You're sitting in your seaside house and you notice that the surf sounds different. You look out and see that the water has receded, as if the tide had pulled out in a hurry. The sea stays low for several minutes.


Pacific Tsunami Museum FAQ page (http://www.tsunami.org/faq.htm#behave)

The image most people have of a tsunami is a large, steep wave breaking on the shore. This image is hardly if ever the case. Most tsunamis appear as an advancing tide without having a developed wave face, resulting in rapid flooding of low-lying coastal areas. Sometimes, a bore can form during which an abrupt front of whitewater will rapidly advance inland much similar to the tidal bore formed at the mouth of large rivers.

When a tsunami approaches a coastline, the wave begins to slow down and increase in height, depending on the topography of the sea floor. Often the first signs of a tsunami are a receding water level caused by the trough of the wave. In some instances though, a small rise in the water level just before the recession, has been observed. Regardless, the incoming wave approaches much like the incoming tide though on a much faster scale. And it goes on to describe
Early in the morning on April 1, 1946, an earthquake with a reported magnitude of 7.1 occurred in the Aleutian Islands off of Alaska. Almost five hours later the largest and most destructive tsunami waves in reported history struck the Hawaiian Islands. Maximum runups were reported to be 54 feet in Molokai, and 55 feet in Pololu Valley on the Big Island. Waves in some areas penetrated more than half a mile inland. Between wave crests, the drawdown is reported to have exposed some areas of the seafloor 500 feet in the seaward direction. A total of 159 tsunami-related fatalities resulted from this destructive event. Many were curious school children who ventured into the exposed reef area, not knowing the receding water to be a sign of an approaching tsunami. (bold is mine)

Here are other first hand accounts.

TSUNAMIS, THE BIG WAVES (http://www.coffeetimes.com/tsunamis.htm)


Tuck Wah Lee was a 27-year old stevedore at the time working in a dockside warehouse. He heard someone yell from the dock outside that the water was disappearing in the bay. While other stevedores ran to pick up fish flopping on the damp sand, Lee scurried up a Coast Guard tower to get a better look at the bay.

Laupaho‘eho‘e resident Leonie Kawaihona Laeha Poy was a teenager getting ready for school when she noticed that all her friends had lined up beside the seashore. She and her brother Will hurried down to join them, but when they saw there was no water, they knew something was terribly wrong.


Eyewitness Account of a Tsunami (http://www.drgeorgepc.com/TsunamiEyewitness.html) This photo of the 1946 tsunami at Hilo waterfront looks the same as the current one in the NYT's article. Definitely looks like a tidal bore on a river rather than the breaking wave of the movie versions.

Gullible Jones
2004-Dec-31, 09:58 PM
My god... :x What can I say?

This must be one of the worst natural disasters to ever blight human society.

I feel... sick. :cry:

Morrolan
2005-Jan-01, 05:06 AM
nothing much else here is occupying the minds of people. New Year's eve was a muted event for most of us.

we're all trying to come to terms with this and trying to help out as much as possible. i expect the death toll to rise beyond 200,000...

beskeptical
2005-Jan-01, 07:04 AM
My god... :x What can I say?

This must be one of the worst natural disasters to ever blight human society.

I feel... sick. :cry:Well, it's clearly up there at the top but the 1918 flu epidemic killed between 20 and 40 million.

The HIV epidemic is estimated to be above 40 million.

TB kills a couple million people a year.

Malaria has killed the highest number of humans cumulatively of all infectious diseases according to the radio program I heard tonight.

Measles, entirely preventable still kills about a million a year.

And I haven't even gotten to wars, motor vehicle accidents, murders and suicides if you want to go beyond natural events.

I don't mean to be callous. I just hope some of the relief money goes to preventing the next catastrophe and not just to helping the current victims.

Whoops, just saw this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=18679) as well.

Maksutov
2005-Jan-01, 08:29 AM
My god... :x What can I say?

This must be one of the worst natural disasters to ever blight human society.

I feel... sick. :cry:Well, it's clearly up there at the top...
beskeptical, I have to use your own correction to correct you. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387678#387678)

Amadeus
2005-Jan-01, 01:29 PM
The HIV epidemic is estimated to be above 40 million.

TB kills a couple million people a year.

Malaria has killed the highest number of humans cumulatively of all infectious diseases according to the radio program I heard tonight.

Measles, entirely preventable still kills about a million a year.


It's a sad fact that it these are all preventable and not expensive to stop.

condoms and vacinations are not that expensive....

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Jan-01, 04:19 PM
Pacific Tsunami Museum FAQ page (http://www.tsunami.org/faq.htm#behave)

When a tsunami approaches a coastline, the wave begins to slow down and increase in height, depending on the topography of the sea floor. Often the first signs of a tsunami are a receding water level caused by the trough of the wave. In some instances though, a small rise in the water level just before the recession, has been observed. Regardless, the incoming wave approaches much like the incoming tide though on a much faster scale.
I would imagine that the first appearance of the wave depends upon the topology of the earthquake--more or less, that the wave produced by a sudden collapse of sea floor would be the opposite of that produced by a sudden rise. That's similar to what we see in seismograph station readings--which can tell us whether the rupture was towards the station, or away.

beskeptical
2005-Jan-01, 07:57 PM
The HIV epidemic is estimated to be above 40 million.

TB kills a couple million people a year.

Malaria has killed the highest number of humans cumulatively of all infectious diseases according to the radio program I heard tonight.

Measles, entirely preventable still kills about a million a year.


It's a sad fact that it these are all preventable and not expensive to stop.

condoms and vaccinations are not that expensive....One problem with measles vaccine is distribution. It has to be kept frozen until use. But other than that it is extremely cheap. (Costs more in the USA but that is corporate profit not production cost.)

TB requires a good public health system to stop. Poor countries don't have that.

Malaria requires more research funds. The Gates foundation is providing a considerable amount. If there is any good coming out of all of us being pushed by monopoly into using Windows OS, a malaria vaccine would be it.

beskeptical
2005-Jan-01, 08:00 PM
My god... :x What can I say?

This must be one of the worst natural disasters to ever blight human society.

I feel... sick. :cry:Well, it's clearly up there at the top...
beskeptical, I have to use your own correction to correct you. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=387678#387678)Not sure what you mean. The 'top' depends on how big a slice you include. I didn't want to discount the magnitude of this event. The disease stats were just the first to enter my mind.

Glom
2005-Jan-01, 09:04 PM
Sophie Rayworth called it the Boxing Day Earthquake. Doubt it'll be a widely recognised term.

Careless
2005-Jan-02, 04:54 PM
virtually all of the film of the waves I've seen has been from thailand and malaysian tourist locations... places which were not hit by the full force of the tsunami. I have to wonder how representative the images we've seen are of the waves which have killed so many thousands of people.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Jan-02, 05:41 PM
virtually all of the film of the waves I've seen has been from thailand and malaysian tourist locations... places which were not hit by the full force of the tsunami. I have to wonder how representative the images we've seen are of the waves which have killed so many thousands of people.
not only that, but the images seem to be of the earlier less destructive flooding. I think that's part of what Argos was talking about--if they had recognized the early signs, they might have had a chance to get to higher ground in time. I just read an account that said some kids ran out on to the beach to collect the fish that were stranded by the first wave, and they were trapped by the larger wave that followed.

rleyland
2005-Jan-02, 07:36 PM
virtually all of the film of the waves I've seen has been from thailand and malaysian tourist locations... places which were not hit by the full force of the tsunami. I have to wonder how representative the images we've seen are of the waves which have killed so many thousands of people.
not only that, but the images seem to be of the earlier less destructive flooding. I think that's part of what Argos was talking about--if they had recognized the early signs, they might have had a chance to get to higher ground in time. I just read an account that said some kids ran out on to the beach to collect the fish that were stranded by the first wave, and they were trapped by the larger wave that followed.

It looks to me as though most of the images of flooing are of the receding waters. i.e. after the wave came through all that water has to go back out to sea, as it does it drags debris, people, cars buses etc out with it. Tsunami's clearly cause damage going both ways.

Also, the images that have made it to TV are of the less affected areas. Anywher hit by a 20m-30m Tsunami is not going to have anyone filming it. No one who could have filmed it would have survived unless they were airborne!

what a mess.

R

beskeptical
2005-Jan-02, 09:34 PM
That raging brown river 20 feet deep as far as you can see in the film clip I linked to above is unquestionably a view of massive destructive power. It really stood out when I saw it as not like all the other pictures.

Tranquility
2005-Jan-03, 08:47 AM
Indonesia announces 95,000 dead from there alone.

How many could have possibly perished in total?

Gmann
2005-Jan-03, 02:25 PM
I don't think there will ever be a total accounting. When you think of all of the villages they speak of that sinply do not exist, and no one seems to remember how exactly how many people lived in them...you get the picture. Something that has been mentioned on C2C for the last few days has hit the mainstream radio. The officials surveying the damage, and directing the relief/recovery efforts have yet to report any dead animals. They seem to have left the area. Some parts of Sri Lanka were effected up to 3 KM inland, and so far, not even a dead rabbit has been found. It tends to lend credence to the theory that animals can sense these kind of things, and run from them, yet we do not.

kucharek
2005-Jan-03, 02:36 PM
British schoolgirl saves lives in Phuket

A ten-year-old girl has saved her family and 100 other tourists on a beach in Thailand because she had learnt about Tsunamis at school.

http://www.itv.com/news/world_1535151.html

Argos
2005-Jan-03, 02:46 PM
British schoolgirl saves lives in Phuket

A ten-year-old girl has saved her family and 100 other tourists on a beach in Thailand because she had learnt about Tsunamis at school.

http://www.itv.com/news/world_1535151.html

According to a printed paper Iīve read she had been studying the matter just two weeks earlier. "There were bubbles on the surface of the sea and the tide began to rise. I realized it would be a tsunami".

Congrats to the English schools and little Tilly, a champion of information.

Wally
2005-Jan-03, 03:39 PM
Saw a "teaser" portion of video Friday on Fox News that showed the wave still very far out from shore. It wasn't breaking, but you could definitely see it as a wall of water. There's a sailboat mored in the foreground of the shot, and the "horizon" as it were is well up past the first set of spreaders from the point of view of the camera man.

Not sure you would have been able to tell though, if not for that boat in the foreground to give you perspective. I watched the news for maybe another 2 hours, but they never did show the entire video.

beskeptical
2005-Jan-04, 08:12 AM
There is one from a hotel as they watch the wave come in from a long way off and the kid in the background is saying, "I bet it's a tidal wave" while the Dad says, "No, I don't think so" or something similar. It's funny in spite of the seriousness.

kucharek
2005-Jan-05, 09:41 AM
Satellite imagery for supporting the international relief activities:

http://www.zki.caf.dlr.de/applications/2004/indian_ocean/indian_ocean_2004_en.html
http://sertit.u-strasbg.fr/documents/asie/asia_en.html

Another example how space technology is working to all people's benefit.

Harald

Wally
2005-Jan-05, 01:07 PM
Wow. The 4th image down on that first site listed shows the whole northern end of the island, which used to be farmland, is now ocean.

Incredible. . .

beskeptical
2005-Jan-06, 04:05 AM
internal server error on first link. Can you find it in an archive or anything if it was a daily page?

Careless
2005-Jan-06, 05:10 PM
virtually all of the film of the waves I've seen has been from thailand and malaysian tourist locations... places which were not hit by the full force of the tsunami. I have to wonder how representative the images we've seen are of the waves which have killed so many thousands of people.
not only that, but the images seem to be of the earlier less destructive flooding. I think that's part of what Argos was talking about--if they had recognized the early signs, they might have had a chance to get to higher ground in time. I just read an account that said some kids ran out on to the beach to collect the fish that were stranded by the first wave, and they were trapped by the larger wave that followed.
From the sumatran fisherman's daughter sleeping next to me: that's exactly what would have happened. Tsunamis aren't something the children there are warned about and fresh fish on the beach are worth cash.

Doodler
2005-Jan-06, 10:13 PM
Something about this whole thing has had my blood boiling. The "stingy" comment is still lingering. Said chucklehead, complete with his bleeding heart, DARED to step up on Nightline and tell the world that his group would be carefully tallying the checks coming in against the pledges offered by various nations. I'd still like five minutes alone with the chucklehead in question and a pair of thick leather gloves.

This, along with Charles Broder's comments in the Washington Post today about the United States' obligation to assist have about turned my stomach on the whole matter.

While I fully support the actions of every nation that is getting involved in the reconstruction, but I also want to put a few points here and let them stand as my views as an American.

1) A crisis on your nation's part is NOT a crisis on my nation's part. Sovreignty's a female of questionable birthing, isn't it?

2) No one is under any obligation to lift a finger to assist anyone but their own. After securing the survivors and remains of their citizens, no country anywhere is under any obligation to help anyone else. Anything more is either generosity or emotionally based political blackmail. More likely the former, but the latter can't be ruled out.

3) Just because there was only $35 million dollars in immediate funds available for use does not imply there isn't more that can be attained. Nor does it take into account that much of the initial donation of medication, water, food, building supplies, and support gear has ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR!! $35 million may not buy much, but it sure as Hades Dark Heart (TM) covers the costs of mobilizing the manpower to distribute what's immediately available. Vehicles need gas, which needs to be paid for, paychecks need to clear the bank, room and board for persons being mobilized to the disaster area needs to be secured.

4) There is no way in heck to know what the eventual cost of reconstruction will be. Having world leaders start casually throwing seven, eight and nine figure pledges out just to look good on camera is reprehensible and irresponsible. Those are the roots of empty promises. The US is now up to $350 million, and I'll bet that will continue to climb. The UN needs to get into its head that this is disaster relief, not an (expletive) lottery hit. You get what you get as it becomes available or is needed, not necessarily what you want, when you want.


When I heard the $35 million pledge the first time, I knew full well, as an American, that it was just the funds on hand. There was no way that would stay so low. The scope of the crisis was still unfolding, so there was no way in heck that could have been based on a reasonable understanding of the devastation. Even if Dubya could care less, Congress would have authorized more on its own initiative. To have these beggars from a toothless bureaucracy dare step up and comment like that is the height of arrogance. If anything, along with the pledge, the US ought to send chucklehead the bill for deploying an amphibious assault carrier to support the relief effort. After all, its a cost associated with relief efforts, isn't it? Worthless prig...


FYI, I have no problem at all with the idea of pulling the stops out to help these nations. I myself had a friend close enough to this one to have a few hours of panic over it. I just cannot stand some of the panhandling that goes on when this happens, when a nation makes an opening bid to get the ball rolling and the recipient looks back and says, "Is that all?". Ingratitude of the highest and most despicable magnitude.

Hamlet
2005-Jan-07, 12:13 AM
Well said, Doodler! I had a similar reaction to these comments. How could we know how much to pledge until we knew the extent of the catastrophe? I had no doubt that the original figure would go up as reports of the damage came in.

The reconstruction of the devastated areas will take years and require the money and support of many nations. To use this kind of tragedy to score political points is quite unseemly.

sarongsong
2005-Jan-07, 06:21 AM
Then there's the ongoing Indonesian civil strife (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/04/160250) to remain aware of, which may affect aid issues in that country.

Brady Yoon
2005-Jan-07, 06:23 AM
FYI, I have no problem at all with the idea of pulling the stops out to help these nations. I myself had a friend close enough to this one to have a few hours of panic over it. I just cannot stand some of the panhandling that goes on when this happens, when a nation makes an opening bid to get the ball rolling and the recipient looks back and says, "Is that all?". Ingratitude of the highest and most despicable magnitude.

I agree. That annoys me so much..

beskeptical
2005-Jan-07, 08:13 AM
Must resist...political comment ...I'd like to go off on the subject of all the money the USA has put into propping up dictatorial regimes that serve our corporate interests at the expense of their populace, including harvesting natural resources and making sure the governments suppress any popular efforts to nationalize said resources while said corrupt officials make themselves rich as well, but....

Instead I'll try very hard to bring up cultural and not political aspects of this topic..

First, you have to keep in mind that the media plays one or two comments here and there and makes no attempt to present any kind of true or scientific analysis of what the prevailing opinions really are. Just because one person makes such a comment in no way tells us how prevalent the sentiment is. And for all we know, the reporter led with a question that was bound to elicit such an answer. The UN official who made the first comment that set the whole thing off said he was misquoted.

Second, when you live in such poor conditions as most of the affected population, (minus any better off hotel owners or beneficiaries of the tourist trade), you have very little control over your life. You see TV programs and commercials where everyone in the West has a big house with all the trimmings. You on the other hand have anything from a one or two room shack to just a shack. You have no auto, you have no reliable income. You have little say in the things which affect your life.

Your image of that person from the West is one made from a mix of your personal experience with the rich in your country, and many of them are very rich, and the image you see of tourists who can travel, who have time off work to play, who have all the money in the world as far as you are concerned.

So perhaps the responses we heard like, "Where is the US?", and, "Why doesn't the US give more?" are coming from a distorted media presentation, or from people with a distorted image of all the extra cash and resources we Americans have to waste?

In either case I would urge you to refrain from judging persons who did or might make such a comment until you consider the circumstances under which a comment like that is sometimes made.

I spent several years traveling and living off and on in the Dominican Republic and Central America. The cultural divide is so extreme it has certain perceptual consequences.

Many people in the rural areas work 6 or 7 days a week, have a small place to live and never save any money or do anything different their whole lives. You go to the same little food stand every day and the same people will be there. You talk to them and find out they are totally in awe that you are free to travel. You stay in a little place with rooms, no furniture except maybe something to set stuff on and wall hooks for your hammock. There's an outhouse and a faucet outside. And you are rich because how else could you be traveling around and not working.

And everyone is wonderful. They share stuff, they invite you home, they love to talk.

Some places people have more modest houses, sort of middle class. They rent you a room. They send little Maria to grandma's up the street to free a room up to rent you. They all seem to have a relative who made it to the US. "Que bonito es Miami" or New York. Even in those places people have an incredibly distorted view of the US. But there you are, traveling around. You are spending less money traveling than if you were home paying rent but to them, you are definitely rich or at least close to it.

Now picture a devastating 9.0 quake in our area. Picture thousands of people living in the street without food or water and say we didn't have a government structure that would or could help. Then picture the Gates with their 40 billion or what ever it is these days. Culturally, it wouldn't be like us to say Gates should help. But inside, I think a lot of people would resent it if the Gates could easily help without even denting their fortune but didn't. And maybe it would dent their fortune, but if you thought it wouldn't, it would affect how you perceived the situation.

TriangleMan
2005-Jan-07, 11:58 AM
A very moving post beskeptical. It is similar to some of the experiences I've had travelling in Cuba. They are a friendly people but generally can't get over the fact that foreigners can drop $10-20 for something without even thinking twice about it - even though that a month's wage for an average Cuban.

That said, I believe international assistance has surpassed $2billion, as well as many of the affected countries receiving forgiveness on debt payments in order to use the money to rebuild the infastructure. It is an impressive amount of aid.

Bawheid
2005-Jan-07, 01:25 PM
That said, I believe international assistance has surpassed $2billion, as well as many of the affected countries receiving forgiveness on debt payments in order to use the money to rebuild the infastructure. It is an impressive amount of aid.

It is certainly a big number but we have to careful of figures promised by governments. There are concerns, as stated by Kofi Anan, (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=598254) that it isn't new money just a reallocation of existing funds. The fear is that some governments got carried away when other countries promised more.

For example, if Freedonia promised Ģ50 million we think that means Ģ50 million. What it sometimes means is: Ģ10 mill new money, Ģ5 mill that was going to famine relief in Africa, Ģ5 mill previously allocated to other projects in SE Asia, and Ģ20 mill which doesn't exist.

To quote from the above link;
"Just over a year ago, donors promised Iran more than US$1 billion in relief after an earthquake killed 26,000 people there. Iranian officials say only US$17.5 million has been sent."

This only applies to government money, I'm sure the Red Cross/Crescent, Oxfam etc. do not do this.

Doodler
2005-Jan-07, 02:58 PM
That said, I believe international assistance has surpassed $2billion, as well as many of the affected countries receiving forgiveness on debt payments in order to use the money to rebuild the infastructure. It is an impressive amount of aid.

It is certainly a big number but we have to careful of figures promised by governments. There are concerns, as stated by Kofi Anan, (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=598254) that it isn't new money just a reallocation of existing funds. The fear is that some governments got carried away when other countries promised more.

For example, if Freedonia promised Ģ50 million we think that means Ģ50 million. What it sometimes means is: Ģ10 mill new money, Ģ5 mill that was going to famine relief in Africa, Ģ5 mill previously allocated to other projects in SE Asia, and Ģ20 mill which doesn't exist.

To quote from the above link;
"Just over a year ago, donors promised Iran more than US$1 billion in relief after an earthquake killed 26,000 people there. Iranian officials say only US$17.5 million has been sent."

This only applies to government money, I'm sure the Red Cross/Crescent, Oxfam etc. do not do this.

Which is one of the reasons I'm glad the President started small and stepped it up as real money was secured. To be honest, the only part of your hypothetical breakdown I see issue with is the money that doesn't exist, referencing my comment earlier about the roots of empty promises. Shuffling funds is a fact of life, even if there's a lot of money, it only goes so far. Lets face it, ALL of the money being put to relief is coming out of something else. Its not like 2 billion in greenbacks or whatever currency was just laying around to be spent.

Iran's a bad example, I'm pretty sure there's something holding things up. Like say, a uranium enrichment program and a government dedicated to disrupting the reconstruction of Iraq.

Bawheid
2005-Jan-07, 03:39 PM
Which is one of the reasons I'm glad the President started small and stepped it up as real money was secured. To be honest, the only part of your hypothetical breakdown I see issue with is the money that doesn't exist, referencing my comment earlier about the roots of empty promises. Shuffling funds is a fact of life, even if there's a lot of money, it only goes so far. Lets face it, ALL of the money being put to relief is coming out of something else. Its not like 2 billion in greenbacks or whatever currency was just laying around to be spent.

Iran's a bad example, I'm pretty sure there's something holding things up. Like say, a uranium enrichment program and a government dedicated to disrupting the reconstruction of Iraq.

Iran is a very good example for precisely the reasons you give. If humanitarian aid is promised, but withheld for political reasons then a government is using a tragedy for its own ends.

Doodler
2005-Jan-07, 04:11 PM
True, but that is the reality of global relations. Even in non-disaster situations, there are nations who's behavior on the international scene is as much the result of the amount of foreign aid given to them as it is sovreign self interest. Its humanitarian on the one hand, but on the other, its still a form of greenmail. Not pretty, not nice, not fair play, but its how it goes.

Probably the more likely scenario in the Iran situation, a pledge of X millions of dollars is a promise made on shaky ground, there's no guarantee that you can secure that money from a constituency hostile to the people in duress. Promised a billion, but only managed to pull a few million out of the hands of the public coffer. That's why the initial pledge of $35 million from the US becomes more rational that it sounds. Its the money they knew full well they had, the rest would come after getting some indication of how much the American pubic would stomach donating, which in this case, is much more substantial. It shows a modicum of wisdom on the Bush Administration not to make another promise they could not make good on.

gethen
2005-Jan-07, 04:23 PM
Most disheartening to me were the e-mails a guy on CNN read a couple of days after the tsunami. He was asking if the U.S. ought to give more than the 35 million initially promised. Most of the responders I heard were saying things like, "Yeah, well where were those countries when we needed help after 9/11?" or "We need to take care of things here before we spend money on the other side of the world." I had to wonder if they thought maybe those folks living in shacks in Thailand should have offered a piece of the corrugated aluminum their homes were built of to help the U.S. get through 9/11. It's very reassuring to see the amount of help that private Americans have pledged over the last days.

Bawheid
2005-Jan-07, 04:24 PM
I don't know who promised what for humanitarian relief in Iran, but 98% of it hasn't turned up. If I can find figures I'll link to them but I won't speculate.

If governments do want political reasons to renege on promises, a brief romp round Human Rights Watch or Amnesty Internationals websites will turn up most of the countries which suffered.

I simply hope that funds promised are promised and not conditional or imaginary.

Added in light of Gethen's post:
I applaud all individuals who have helped, and all the NGOs involved. I simply don't trust governments to do what they say.

Gmann
2005-Jan-07, 05:10 PM
The Governments are not going to be the big contributors in this effort. A bulk of the funds are going to come from private donations to the Red Cross, Red Crescent, and other relief organizations. I heard a couple days ago that private contributions from the US alone was approaching 1 billion. Last night, we had an untelevised telethon in St. Louis on our NBC station that raised over $100,000 in 5 hours. They showed the first half hour, then displayed call in numbers from time to time on the bottom of the screen. That's just from the NBC watchers in our local market. I understand that there is another National program scheduled within the next few days. I'm sure other Countries are doing the same sort of thing. I believe that the amount of money/goods donated to helping with this disaster is going to easily exceed all expectations. Hopefully, the aid will reach all over the area and prevent some of the predicted 150,000 additional deaths that are supposed to come from disease and starvation.

Doodler
2005-Jan-07, 07:29 PM
The current breakdown according to Reuters. Numbers are in millions of USD, parenthesed numbers are private donations.



African Union 0.10

Algeria 2.00

Australia 815.00 Doodler says: ZOIKS!!!

Austria 10.88 (13.60)

Bahrain 2.00

Belgium 16.32

Britain 95.00 (146.00)

Bulgaria 0.14

Canada 80.00

China 60.42

Cyprus 0.37

Czech Republic 0.668 (2.68)

Denmark 76.83

EU 529.00

Finland 15.88 (21.90)

France 64.57 (49.00)

Germany 680 (200.00)

Greece 1.34 (14.70)

Hungary 1.20

India 25.00

Ireland 13.62 (18.20)

Italy 95.00

Japan 500.00

Kuwait 10.00

Libya 2.00

Luxembourg 6.80

Netherlands 34.00

New Zealand 3.60

North Korea 0.15

Norway 181.90

Poland 1.00 (1.30)

Portugal 10.88 (2.72)

Qatar 25.00

Saudi Arabia 30.00

Singapore 23.10

Slovakia 0.23

Slovenia 0.24

South Korea 50.00

Spain 68.02

Sweden 80.00

Switzerland 23.81 (39.24)

Taiwan 50.25

Turkey 1.25

UAE 20.00

USA 350.00

Venezuela 2.00

World Bank 250.00

Total: 4,611.618 (765.73)

Kizarvexis
2005-Jan-08, 01:27 AM
Conspiracy theorists see dark forces behind tsunami disaster (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050106/wl_asia_afp/asiaquakeconspiracy)

Wed Jan 5, 9:06 PM ET
HONG KONG (AFP) - Just 11 days after Asia's tsunami catastrophe, conspiracy theorists are out in force, accusing governments of a cover-up, blaming the military for testing top-secret eco-weapons or aliens trying to correct the Earth's "wobbly" rotation.

In bars and Internet chatrooms around the world questions are being asked, with knowing nods and winks, about who caused the submarine earthquake off Sumatra on December 26, and why governments were so slow to act in the minutes and hours before tsunamis slammed into their shores, killing almost 150,000.

"There's a lot more to this. Why is the US sending a warship? Why is a senior commander who was in Iraq going there?" whispered designer Mark Tyler, drinking a pint of beer at a bar in Hong Kong's Wan Chai district.

"This happened exactly a year after Bam," said Tyler, referring to the earthquake in Iran which killed 30,000 on December 26 last year. "Is that a coincidence? And there was no previous seismic activity recorded in Sumatra before the quake, which is very strange," he said, nodding somberly.

After every globally shocking event -- from the bombing of Pearl Harbour to the assassination of John F Kennedy, the death of Princess Diana and the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States -- conspiracy theorists emerge with their own sinister take on events.


It's sad really. Did these woo-woos even go to school? What ever happened to common sense?

Kizarvexis

beskeptical
2005-Jan-08, 04:11 AM
A very moving post beskeptical. It is similar to some of the experiences I've had travelling in Cuba. They are a friendly people but generally can't get over the fact that foreigners can drop $10-20 for something without even thinking twice about it - even though that a month's wage for an average Cuban.

That said, I believe international assistance has surpassed $2billion, as well as many of the affected countries receiving forgiveness on debt payments in order to use the money to rebuild the infastructure. It is an impressive amount of aid.Thank you. Sometimes I'm not sure anyone reads my long diatribes. :wink:

I totally agree that US aid is best in the form of private donations. Sadly a lot of what our government calls aid is really military aid.

I just wish Bush knew how to be as good a world public relations person as he is a campaign public relations person.

Argos
2005-Jan-08, 12:03 PM
Sometimes I'm not sure anyone reads my long diatribes.

You bet this guy does. :)

beskeptical
2005-Jan-09, 03:55 AM
Gee, thank you too, Argos. [beaming]

ZaphodBeeblebrox
2005-Jan-09, 07:57 AM
I don't know who promised what for humanitarian relief in Iran, but 98% of it hasn't turned up. If I can find figures I'll link to them but I won't speculate.

If governments do want political reasons to renege on promises, a brief romp round Human Rights Watch or Amnesty Internationals websites will turn up most of the countries which suffered.

I simply hope that funds promised are promised and not conditional or imaginary.

Added in light of Gethen's post:
I applaud all individuals who have helped, and all the NGOs involved. I simply don't trust governments to do what they say.

Eh, Nobody Does ...

It's why Democracy Works.

As Sir Winston Churchill put it, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Maksutov
2005-Jan-10, 05:37 AM
Unfortunately the thread title is now off by a factor of more than ten.

Here's some incredible footage showing the tsunami sweeping through Banda Aceh, the capital of Indonesia's Aceh province

Video Link (http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050109/av_ap_wl/4d9ac53d1f5d5ca482596c91770b0fbc&cid=452&f=5374634 8)

sarongsong
2005-Jan-10, 06:40 AM
January 10, 2005 (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11899242%255E1702,00.html)
"...Of the US government donation of $US350 million only $US50-60 million had so far been committed, he [Colin Powell] told CNN television from Nairobi..."

beskeptical
2005-Jan-10, 09:58 AM
Unfortunately the thread title is now off by a factor of more than ten.

Here's some incredible footage showing the tsunami sweeping through Banda Aceh, the capital of Indonesia's Aceh province

Video Link (http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050109/av_ap_wl/4d9ac53d1f5d5ca482596c91770b0fbc&cid=452&f=5374634 8)That one is pretty incredible. It looks like the tree is going to hit those people on the side of the building then it is gone from the camera view. I wonder what happened.

01101001
2005-Jan-10, 10:25 AM
Video Link (http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050109/av_ap_wl/4d9ac53d1f5d5ca482596c91770b0fbc&cid=452&f=5374634 8)
Thanks.

I first caught that on TV. I came into the middle, and at first I thought they were, like, on a double-decker bus or something, because the road was rushing past, and I assumed that was due to movement of the camera. Before long I realized the road, or at least its contents, was rushing past, like a river. What a lot of stuff was sweeping by. It was so thick with floating junk, homes, cars, trees, it almost seemed like you could run across the surface.

What I hadn't seen on TV was the very end of the segment, where it looks like, out-of-sequence, the first wave: cars are driving down the road and all of the sudden they are starting to float down the road. Yikes.

Maksutov
2005-Jan-10, 10:25 AM
Unfortunately the thread title is now off by a factor of more than ten.

Here's some incredible footage showing the tsunami sweeping through Banda Aceh, the capital of Indonesia's Aceh province

Video Link (http://news.yahoo.com//p/v?u=/ap_av/20050109/av_ap_wl/4d9ac53d1f5d5ca482596c91770b0fbc&cid=452&f=5374634 8)That one is pretty incredible. It looks like the tree is going to hit those people on the side of the building then it is gone from the camera view. I wonder what happened.
From the story with the video:


As his videotape showed a building that became a pile of twisted girders, Hasyim told Metro TV that five construction workers were sleeping inside the unfinished structure when it collapsed, probably killing them all.

People standing around or examining the remains of wrecked houses and cracked concrete slabs appeared relatively calm. Motorcycle traffic continued moving through the streets and no emergency sirens were audible.

Then, suddenly — Hasyim [the video photographer] said it was between 15 and 20 minutes after the quake — the videotape showed a swift, powerful wall of water engulfing a busy street, rising to at least the second floor of buildings and carrying so much debris and garbage that the water itself was hardly visible.

About six vehicles — including a pickup truck — floated along together. A huge tree moved swiftly along the street, carried by the unstoppable wave.

Hasyim said the waves were even more turbulent elsewhere in the city. As he videotaped from atop a building in a mosque complex, the water beneath him rose to 10 feet deep, almost touching his feet, Hasyim said.

His camera remained steady throughout.

"I remembered God, my family," he said, adding that he knew his relatives were safe in a different part of Sumatra island. "Those are the only things I had in mind. ... I gave myself entirely to God, to my faith. I thought, 'If I die here, I am in God's house,' and I wasn't afraid of anything."
So it was an act of god. And, per the faithful, nothing to worry about.

As long as you've got the right god. (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050110/india_nm/india_186594&e=2)

Whichever one that happens to be. (http://islamcan.com/miracles/indonesia.shtml)

Funny that massive stone structures seemed to hold up against the water better than light, wooden ones.

Apparently Indonesia (unfortunately) has their own versions of 9/11 Falwell and Robertson. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48407-2005Jan4.html)

Registration required. Excerpt from the story:


In Angry Waves, the Devout See an Angry God

Wednesday, January 5, 2005; Page A01

BANDA ACEH, Indonesia, Jan. 4 -- Aceh's highly influential Islamic clerics have explained the giant wave that devastated this overwhelmingly Muslim region as a warning to the faithful that they must more strictly observe their religion, including a ban on Muslims killing Muslims.

Hard to know for sure it's actually JD 2453380 (2005 CE) sometimes.

Swift
2005-Jan-10, 02:15 PM
Interesting piece from the NY Times website
LINK (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/07/international/worldspecial4/07waves.html?oref=login) (registration required)

The tsunami that ravaged countries all around the Indian Ocean also hit the eastern United States, though only the tide gauges noticed.

A tide gauge at Atlantic City recorded the passage of a "train" of waves, just under nine inches from crest to trough, 32 hours after the earthquake struck off Sumatra's west coast on Dec. 26, said Dr. Alexander B. Rabinovich of the Canadian Institute of Ocean Sciences in Sidney, British Columbia. A gauge at Port Canaveral, Fla., recorded 13.4-inch waves 24 minutes later.

Argos
2005-Jan-10, 02:59 PM
Similarly, tide gauge in the southeastern coast of South America (In the Brazilian states of Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo) was as high as one foot :o in the same time frame, according to a navy spokesman interviewed by the TV. I donīt have the exact numbers, and it seems very impressive to me.

ToSeek
2005-Jan-12, 03:12 AM
NASA/French Satellite Data Reveal New Details of Tsunami (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA07219?msource=release13)

Careless
2005-Jan-17, 07:10 PM
this hotel has been housing troops passing through medan since the tsunami. first they were australian, then there were a few belgians, and now the troops are mostly americans. Since the american military got here, the hotel has sprouted indonesian cops armed with sub-machine guns at all the doors The city itself has been much quieter (when the iraq war started, there was a lot of screaming from the mosques around here, "kill the americans" kind of stuff. None of that now, I'm glad to report.

ToSeek
2005-Jan-21, 06:05 PM
Terra satellite shows breaking waves from tsunami (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=15950)

Nicolas
2005-Jan-21, 06:24 PM
then there were a few belgians

Thank you for mentioning us.

Are you living/staying in that area? In that case, how are things going there now? (I'm without television here). I heard local people want tourists to return to the area, because they are ready for it and want their economy to continue. Are you seeing the tourists coming again yet?

Disinfo Agent
2005-Jan-24, 03:04 PM
Meanwhile, the death toll from the tsunami+earthquake has doubled (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12025927%255E1702,00.html): >220, 000! :o :(

Argos
2005-Jan-25, 01:08 PM
Meanwhile, the death toll from the tsunami+earthquake has doubled (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12025927%255E1702,00.html): >220, 000! :o :(

Now they are talking of 280,000.

sarongsong
2005-Jan-29, 10:39 PM
"...In the span of four years the company [Mobil-Exxon] extracts more than one cubic mile of natural gas from the formations beneath what has turned out to be the epicenter..."
http://tinyurl.com/4acte
Possible/probable cause?

CTM VT 2K
2005-Jan-29, 10:49 PM
"...In the span of four years the company [Mobil-Exxon] extracts more than one cubic mile of natural gas from the formations beneath what has turned out to be the epicenter..."
http://tinyurl.com/4acte
Possible/probable cause?

Raises some interesting questions, but comes off to me as scare-mongering. I have no background in geologic structures, nor in the petro-chemical mining industry, so I really can't speak to the veracity of the claims - certainly worth checking with someone who knows about said specialties.

beskeptical
2005-Jan-30, 01:48 AM
The Earthquake in the tsunami had nothing to do with natural gas extraction. Even if there were some remote trigger effect, which is doubtful considering the type of quake, the quake would have happened eventually anyway.

The type of EQ in this case was a great subduction quake. (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/subduction.html)

The Java Trench, where the quake occurred is an area where one plate is sinking beneath another. In addition, it tends to 'stick' so no movement occurs until a lot of kinetic pressure builds up, then pow! You get a great quake.

Subduction quake and the Java Trench: (http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/plate_tectonics/rift_man.htm/)


The third type of earthquake is related to the collision of oceanic and continental plates. One plate is thrust or subducted under the other plate so that a deep ocean trench is produced. In the Philippines, ocean trenches are associated with curved volcanic island arcs on the landward plate, for example the Java trench. Along the Peru - Chile trench, the Pacific plate is being subducted under the South American plate which responds by crumpling to form the Andes. This type of earthquake can be shallow, intermediate, or deep, according to its location on the downgoing lithospheric slab. Such inclined planes of earthquakes are know as Benioff zones. (http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/benioff.html)We have the same quakes in Chile, in AK and in WA/OR. Chile's last great quake was in 1960. AK's last big one was 1964. WA/OR is due anytime from now through the next 200 or so years.

beskeptical
2005-Jan-30, 01:54 AM
Sarongsong, that article is full of **. There has not been any increase in earthquakes, let alone an increase correlating with oil and/or natural gas extraction!!!!

They need some serious education in plate tectonics.

Here's a lesson in how to evaluate these nonsensical sites.

First, their graph (http://pesn.com/2005/01/25/6900062_Exxon_Tripped_Indonesian_Tsunami/) of earthquakes and oil extraction has absolutely no references. The data is not even close to being correct so I'm not surprised.

Then there are these references. Since they linked them instead of publishing the sources, you'll have to go to their page to see what the sources actually are.


* Oil Extraction Stresses Earth, Contributing to Earthquakes and Tsunamis - Previous draft of this story, published on Jan. 12, 2005, prior to information about Exxon-Mobil.Previous draft of their own story as a reference!!!!! Oh pleeeeease.

* ExxonMobil, Aceh and the Tsunami - In Aceh, the company operates one of the largest gas fields in the world and they're being sued for gross human rights violations. (Democracy Now; Jan. 4, 2005) (related)I am familiar with this story. Democracy Now reported that the Indonesian military were akin to an organized crime group that wanted to exploit resources in the Banda Aceh area. This is what has led to the conflict there, not an insurgency against the Indonesian government as widely reported. The story is NOT related to any claims in this article.

* Oil Drilling and Earthquakes - cites multiple references (Google Answers; April 25, 2004)
Q. "Given the fact that oil has been pumped out of the ground 24/7/365 by thousands upon thousands of pumps all over the world for so many years, what replaces the space previously held by the oil?"
A. "the removal of oil can cause earthquakes, even in regions normally quiet when it comes to seismic activity..."Earthquakes along the line of mag 1 or 2 maybe as the ground settles. Since when is a "google search" for an answer to a question a reference? You have to evaluate each reference in a search. That's what these authors were supposed to do.

* Four collaborative anecdotes - Posted below. Tesla's NY quake; San Andreas tinkering; magnetic field changes; N-bombs and quakes.The smilie doesn't roll its eyes far enough to express my reaction to this reference. :roll:

* Troop deployment to guard Exxon and other vital enterprises - At least 1600 troops guarding Exxon interests alone in the Aceh region in 2001.
* Exxon 'helped torture in Indonesia' - "The Asia-Pacific region contributes about 13% of ExxonMobil's worldwide production of oil and gas." Ini 2000, gas from Indonesia yielded 118 cargoes of LNG." (BBC; June 22, 2001)What does this have to do with any earthquake hypothesis?

* OIL: The Cause of Most Earthquakes and Bad Weather - Robert L. Cook, alt energy inventor, addresses oil extraction and earthquakes; global warming and ice cap water redistribution stresses; atmospheric pressure modifications. "What would happen if the sunken earth of the Antarctic region were to spring back up (even a few hundred feet) after enough ice melts away? Could this trigger a worldwide earthquake?"This is no revelation. We know with the glacier retreat after ice ages the ground rises when the weight of the ice is removed. So write a paper on global warming, not this nonsense.

* Earthquake: Coincidence or a Corporate Oil Tragedy? - "Sound bombing" or seismic tests of ocean floors to test for oil and gas had been carried out near the sites of the Tasmanian beachings recently. (Independent Media TV; Dec. 28, 2004)
dolphins_beached_350.jpg
Whale Beachings in Tasmania, Australia and New Zealand on November 30th, 2004
(Robin Good)Let's see, whales beached themselves so there must be an earthquake connection????????

* Three Gorges Dam - is situated near six active fault lines and above 15 million people.
* Dam on dangerous ground - recent earthquakes (Three Gorges Probe news service; Dec. 18, 2003)And dam is dangerous so there must be an oil extraction earthquake connection????????

* Magma Oil - List of references that support the theory that some oil is generated deep within the earth and replenished. (FreeEnergyNews directory)Need I repeat my above sentences or will the ???????? do?

* When Will We Learn (PDF) - Michael Horn says that Billy Meier warned thirty years ago that earthquakes would accompany our oil and gas extraction.Well that proves it!

I like some of your links, sarong, but you really do need to look at the supporting evidence for some of this stuff. This one goes in the fiction section for sure.

sarongsong
2005-Jan-30, 02:44 AM
Thanks, beskep---I like your evaluations, too. (We get democracynow on our local community TV, and I'm constantly impressed with Amy Goodman's extreme fortitude with the news and mental agility with interviewees. Puts the major networks' Talking Heads to shame!) Will try to find something more challenging. :wink:

beskeptical
2005-Jan-30, 03:16 AM
Well this guy is going to be on Art Bell tonight!
Meier was specifically warned about the connection of earthquakes to the extraction of petroleum and natural gas, as well as the damming of waters and over-building of huge cities. The first confirmation I found for the petroleum connection was from Paul Segal, a geophysics professor at Stanford University in 1990.

I will be discussing this and more on the Art Bell radio show this Saturday night, Jan. 29, from 11:00 p.m. - 2:00 a.m. PST (www.coasttocoastam.com)
Art is also well known for exploring the latest developments in alternative energy sources.

Michael Horn
Authorized American Media Representative
The Billy Meier Contacts
www.theyfly.comThis is too much! I'm going to post a new thread to alert the BA readers and link to this thread..

Also, there is a pretty good exchange with a geologist that disputes the article at the bottom of the page I hadn't seen yet. Definitely worth reading.

Gmann
2005-Jan-31, 01:57 PM
Wow, I heard part of the beginning of the show. He carried on about the "Playarans (sp)" predicted an earthquake in a geologically unstable area. All I can say is: no :-$ !! I would like to hear the aliens perspective on the cause of the eruption of Krakatoa, which was in the same area back in the 1880's. I wonder if they would find a way to hang that one on too many Conestoga Wagons crossing the western US looking for gold in California. That has to be the only cause, since we weren't drilling for oil in seabeds at that time. Next thing you know, someone is going to claim that it is going to get cold in Minnesota this winter. #-o

beskeptical
2005-Feb-01, 10:24 AM
Wow, I heard part of the beginning of the show. He carried on about the "Playarans (sp)" predicted an earthquake in a geologically unstable area. ...That would be the Pleiadians from the star cluster Pleiades. (http://www.crystalinks.com/pleiades.html)(mispelled on the link picture caption. :P )

Gmann
2005-Feb-01, 01:55 PM
That would be the Pleiadians from the star cluster Pleiades

I recall a time when this guy was on C2C probably 2+ years ago when he specifically stated that the Billy Meier aliens were actually called "Playarans" ( I did not catch the real spelling). They were called Pleiadians so that if anyone else claimed to be in contact, it would be obvious that they were faking it, because of the fact that the stars in the Pleiades cluster are the wrong type to support life, at least that is what the aliens told him to say. Those were his words on his last appearance (or at least the last one I remember) when he changed the name to "Playaran" in an effort to sniff out...woo woo's. I am still not impressed by someone predicting an earthquake in a geologically unstable area, rife with active volcanos. I need more proof. I need a UFO to become an IFO and land in the Rose Garden, walk up to George Bush and say "take me to your leader"...to which George responds...( I better not go there, the BA 8) tends to [-X those kind of responses)

Disinfo Agent
2005-Feb-02, 04:07 PM
Human death toll triples: ~300, 000 (http://www.rense.com/general62/dtoll.htm)