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View Full Version : Fantasies do not have to follow the rules of the physical world?



Inclusa
2015-May-06, 04:20 AM
Let's not only discuss the powers, but anything in general that defies the rules of the physical world
in any works of fantasies.
Inspector Gadget was never intended to be a fantasy; nonetheless, as someone has mentioned,
the very concept is beyond the rules of physics.
The superpowers of many superheroes or supervillains do not make much physical sense, either, such
as those of Dragonball Z, X-Men, etc.

Jens
2015-May-06, 06:03 AM
Are you looking for a list of things in movies that aren't possible in the physical world? The list seems pretty endless.

grant hutchison
2015-May-06, 10:01 AM
What on earth was Inspector Gadget intended to be, if not fantasy?

Grant Hutchison

swampyankee
2015-May-06, 10:09 AM
What on earth was Inspector Gadget intended to be, if not fantasy?

Grant Hutchison

A send-up of Bond movies, perhaps, which are a different breed of fantasy.

malaidas
2015-May-06, 11:55 AM
Fantasy is our sense making gone wild, Its a vital part of our functioning In seeing the difference between what is and what could have been.

This is why in general I prefer fantasy which is more disconnected to the reality we experience.it's somehow more stimulating.

The likes of J .R.R. Tolkien brought mythology back I. An acceptable form oF recognised fiction, never the less feeds into our wonder as to how the universe is the way it is.

So whether movie or book, it sings to our sense of wonder and this is in general a good thing. Indeed my problems personally with soap operas etC, is that there is no wonder, no new content Beyond our every day existence. To some this is what they want, but not for me.

Noclevername
2015-May-07, 08:21 AM
What on earth was Inspector Gadget intended to be, if not fantasy?

Grant Hutchison

A humanized version of Dynomutt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynomutt,_Dog_Wonder)? Which was itself a sendup of superhero fantasy.

Inclusa
2015-May-09, 02:18 AM
A humanized version of Dynomutt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynomutt,_Dog_Wonder)? Which was itself a sendup of superhero fantasy.

Except for Inspector Gadget himself (or is he an automaton in the first place?), the show doesn't display exceptional sophisticated technologies or magic.
Still, because Inspector Gadget himself very much defies the rules of physics, it is a fantasy.
By the way, can we call the James Bond movies and novels fantasy because they display impossible technologies for the time?

Noclevername
2015-May-09, 02:52 AM
Except for Inspector Gadget himself (or is he an automaton in the first place?), the show doesn't display exceptional sophisticated technologies or magic.


The Inspector Gadget Robot Double? The Gadgetmobile? Brain's intelligence and occasionally opposable thumbs? And for its time, Penny's uber-hacking computer-book was definitely more advanced than the state of the art. Also a super-fast plant growth chemical, invisible camouflage suits, an earthquake generator, a storm generator, a magic goat whose milk grants super-powers, an Ancient Mayan superweapon, a satellite that stops cows from making milk, a lead-into-gold potion, a hypnotizing video game, weather control, a formula that destroys wood, a llama that spits diamonds, a superhero named "Capeman", a shrink ray, a teleporter, a nightmare projector, time travel, and a plan to carve MAD's logo on the Moon.

Inclusa
2015-May-09, 03:11 AM
The Inspector Gadget Robot Double? The Gadgetmobile? Brain's intelligence and occasionally opposable thumbs? And for its time, Penny's uber-hacking computer-book was definitely more advanced than the state of the art. Also a super-fast plant growth chemical, invisible camouflage suits, an earthquake generator, a storm generator, a magic goat whose milk grants super-powers, an Ancient Mayan superweapon, a satellite that stops cows from making milk, a lead-into-gold potion, a hypnotizing video game, weather control, a formula that destroys wood, a llama that spits diamonds, a superhero named "Capeman", a shrink ray, a teleporter, a nightmare projector, time travel, and a plan to carve MAD's logo on the Moon.

Thank you! Wow, this renders it a science fantasy of a kind, eh?

Eclogite
2015-May-09, 06:01 AM
Some of you seem to be conflating poorly written fiction with fantasy. While fantasy contains impossible elements, these elements must fit nicely within a logical framework, being mutually self consistent. Ultimately, fantasy is a metaphor used to explore the human condition, or simply to entertain.

Noclevername
2015-May-09, 08:07 AM
Some of you seem to be conflating poorly written fiction with fantasy. While fantasy contains impossible elements, these elements must fit nicely within a logical framework, being mutually self consistent. Ultimately, fantasy is a metaphor used to explore the human condition, or simply to entertain.

I disagree. Fantasy as a literary genre might be defined that way, but fantasies in general often contain elements of exaggerated reality.

grant hutchison
2015-May-09, 08:42 AM
By the way, can we call the James Bond movies and novels fantasy because they display impossible technologies for the time?The novels stay close to reality. Some of the movies include miracle technology that introduces an element of careless science fiction, as well as running through most of the usual unrealistic tropes of the adventure genre.

Grant Hutchison

Eclogite
2015-May-09, 12:32 PM
I disagree. Fantasy as a literary genre might be defined that way, but fantasies in general often contain elements of exaggerated reality.My draft version of my post read "While fantasy contains impossible, or highly improbable elements", which I edited to eliminate the improbable. (It was more concise.) On that basis we appear to be in agreement - if you agree that highly exaggerated reality must still, when will written, be logical and consistent within its created framework.

swampyankee
2015-May-09, 01:09 PM
Defining genres within fiction is an ongoing, acrimonious debate. The basic problem is that writers don't like to stay within neatly defined boxes, so they tend to wander around the edges and send tendrils tunneling out of the genre box. Readers and critics, however, do like their boxes nice and neat, and bookstores and libraries want to be able to segregate genre fiction from "good" fiction, so we get arguments about which neat little box we can put Doris Lessing or Margaret Atwater into (both, obviously, well-considered by the mainstream critical community, but both have written sf/f) and still keep those grubby genre writers out (I think the decision was Lessing and Atwater didn't write genre because, you know, the right critics said so).

Comics, like their non-graphic counterparts, the Tom Swift books, exist to make their publishers money. This was more explicit when they were seen as merely throwaways aimed towards pre- and early adolescent boys (or, much less often) girls than today, although it would seem intuitively obvious to the most clueless of observers that the target audience has changed, but the corporate goal is the same. (I also don't disbelieve that comics are better today than the half-century ago when I still read them, although I deplore the increased sexualization and increased level of violence)

jokergirl
2015-May-09, 01:57 PM
tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny

Noclevername
2015-May-09, 03:29 PM
My draft version of my post read "While fantasy contains impossible, or highly improbable elements", which I edited to eliminate the improbable. (It was more concise.) On that basis we appear to be in agreement - if you agree that highly exaggerated reality must still, when will written, be logical and consistent within its created framework.

I do not agree. Absurdity has its place, too.

Eclogite
2015-May-09, 09:32 PM
I do not agree. Absurdity has its place, too.Can you provide an example of absurdity that does not follow a set of rules in a consistent manner. I cite the works of Lewis Carrol, or the Hithchiker's Guide to the Galaxy as examples of absurd works whose internal logic is sound and consistent.

Noclevername
2015-May-09, 09:54 PM
Can you provide an example of absurdity that does not follow a set of rules in a consistent manner. I cite the works of Lewis Carrol, or the Hithchiker's Guide to the Galaxy as examples of absurd works whose internal logic is sound and consistent.

How nice for them. I cite 90% of all kids' cartoons ever made.

Inclusa
2015-May-10, 02:30 AM
How nice for them. I cite 90% of all kids' cartoons ever made.

I just wonder if you watched Doraemon, the classic and long running Anime?
Similar to Inspector Gadget, Doraemon can grab any gadgets from its (OK, I guess it is asexual, since it is a robotic "cat" without assigned gender) pocket.

Solfe
2015-May-10, 02:36 AM
I would think there is a sorting order to fantasy, from "pure fantasy" like the scene in Fantasia where artist drew what they thought the music "looked like"; to something a little more down to earth like "The Transporter" where every gun shot looks like a road flare and has dance music set the tempo of gunplay.

I don't know if you would want to assign a "rule of logical conservation", because it is a form of art. Some of it is really good while others are really wacky.

My wife gripes at a painting in the Albright Knox Museum. It is a canvas painted green, with no variation or image depicted. She doesn't think it is art, but I find it relaxing to look it and qualify it as art.

If you want absurdity that doesn't follow rules, outsider art might do it. This might be a plug, but I am fascinated by outsider art like Toynbee Tiles. There is a film (Resurrect the Dead: The Mystery of the Toynbee Tiles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrect_Dead:_The_Mystery_of_the_Toynbee_Tiles)) on the subject art work and the whole thing flies off the rails really fast. I found myself saying "What?!?" about every 7-10 minutes. I called this a film because it is billed as a documentary, but is so odd, I hesitate to call it that. At least one of the people creating the documentary is in to outsider art and that kind of breaks down the idea of "documentary as reality or factual" in my mind.

Noclevername
2015-May-10, 04:42 AM
I just wonder if you watched Doraemon, the classic and long running Anime?
Similar to Inspector Gadget, Doraemon can grab any gadgets from its (OK, I guess it is asexual, since it is a robotic "cat" without assigned gender) pocket.

I haven't heard of that, but I'm not a big anime guy.

Eclogite
2015-May-10, 05:30 AM
How nice for them. I cite 90% of all kids' cartoons ever made.Our understanding of what constitutes a fantasy appears to be different. That said, the cartoons I recall followed consistent rules for their imaginary world. Extreme malleability of physical objects and a 1.3 second delay before gravity acted on an individual when they stepped off a cliff are two good examples.

Story telling aims for "the willing suspension of disbelief". This can best be attained by satisfying the very human desire that things fit a pattern. In turn that means that they should follow a set of rules. These rules do not need to be the rules we have discovered for the universe, but for the story telling to be effective, they must be acceptable, which means they have to be there.

Noclevername
2015-May-10, 07:50 AM
Our understanding of what constitutes a fantasy appears to be different. That said, the cartoons I recall followed consistent rules for their imaginary world. Extreme malleability of physical objects and a 1.3 second delay before gravity acted on an individual when they stepped off a cliff are two good examples.

Story telling aims for "the willing suspension of disbelief". This can best be attained by satisfying the very human desire that things fit a pattern. In turn that means that they should follow a set of rules. These rules do not need to be the rules we have discovered for the universe, but for the story telling to be effective, they must be acceptable, which means they have to be there.
Your threshold of "acceptable" obviously differs from mine, then. And I suspect that you have not watched the same cartoons as I have.

ADDED: Sometimes the illogic and inconsistency is the source of humor and absurdity.

Zhugenaut
2015-May-12, 05:14 PM
Doraemon the Dora ex machina. It came from the future, has time machine and bigger-inside-than-outside purse.

There are plenty of Chinese martial arts themed fantasy fictions with characters having superior power than Dragonball Z. This is a common theme, especially if gods are involved in the story. Martial arts training can increase one's power to a point of rivalling gods. Some are even pictured in a rocky planet as big as Jupiter or bigger. Imagine the gravity.

I think reincarnation theme is beyond the rules of physics. Deverry (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/498214.Daggerspell) by Katharine Kerr comes to mind.

Swift
2015-May-12, 07:27 PM
Except for Inspector Gadget himself (or is he an automaton in the first place?), the show doesn't display exceptional sophisticated technologies or magic.
Still, because Inspector Gadget himself very much defies the rules of physics, it is a fantasy.
By the way, can we call the James Bond movies and novels fantasy because they display impossible technologies for the time?
Inspector Gadget is a kids TV show, and one for fairly young kids. It uses whatever it uses (magic, technology, whatever) to make an amusing story for little kids. I think you are way over-analyzing it.

Inclusa
2015-May-14, 06:09 AM
Inspector Gadget is a kids TV show, and one for fairly young kids. It uses whatever it uses (magic, technology, whatever) to make an amusing story for little kids. I think you are way over-analyzing it.

I guess that it isn't meant to be realistic in the first place, eh?
It can be "logical" within that universe, but doesn't need to be realistic.

Inclusa
2015-May-22, 05:40 AM
Anything that involves superpowers (or even divine power) often do not follow reality anyway.