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Catop res Ublicaus
2015-May-18, 01:11 PM
Hello, first post here.

I have been writing an essay recently to possibly show how a universe which consists of two worlds--an immaterial guiding world, and a physical world--is more probable than a purely physical world. The immaterial world that I am trying to show is most probable is the immutable, nonphysical, yet all important "world" of the laws of mathematics and physics. I attempt to show throughout the essay how these laws more than likely exist before, and independently, of any matter--at least in my opinion.

I am short on time so I'll get to the point now, and post some reasons as I think why later. However, here is what I think about the bucket argument, and please enlighten me if I understand the argument incorrectly.

In the bucket experiment, the question is what does the water concave relative to? Correct? If this is the case, then my answer, given previous sections within my essay, is why does the water have to be concaving relative to anything? Why can it not just be acting in accordance to the immutable laws of physics? Does there necessarily have to be something in relation?

Thoughts?

Hornblower
2015-May-18, 03:48 PM
Hello, first post here.

I have been writing an essay recently to possibly show how a universe which consists of two worlds--an immaterial guiding world, and a physical world--is more probable than a purely physical world. The immaterial world that I am trying to show is most probable is the immutable, nonphysical, yet all important "world" of the laws of mathematics and physics. I attempt to show throughout the essay how these laws more than likely exist before, and independently, of any matter--at least in my opinion.

I am short on time so I'll get to the point now, and post some reasons as I think why later. However, here is what I think about the bucket argument, and please enlighten me if I understand the argument incorrectly.

In the bucket experiment, the question is what does the water concave relative to? Correct? If this is the case, then my answer, given previous sections within my essay, is why does the water have to be concaving relative to anything? Why can it not just be acting in accordance to the immutable laws of physics? Does there necessarily have to be something in relation?

Thoughts?
You are addressing an issue that Pythagoras and his followers addressed some 2500 years ago, when they sought the ultimate "truth" about the universe in mathematics. In the meantime most scientists have concluded that the ultimate "truth" is something science cannot prove one way or the other. As I think I understand it, the "laws" of mathematics and physics are mental creations that are useful for analyzing the phenomena we observe and coming to better understanding of them, and for predicting what will happen under hypothetical conditions. The straight lines relative to which the path of the bucket and the surface of the water are curved are just such creations. The water acts predictably in accordance with the characteristics of our universe, but the reasons for those characteristics may be unknowable.

Perhaps you should take this up in the "Reality" thread in Science and Technology. A very small number of people are arguing back and forth interminably. A fresh voice over there might be very interesting.

Catop res Ublicaus
2015-May-18, 04:06 PM
You are addressing an issue that Pythagoras and his followers addressed some 2500 years ago, when they sought the ultimate "truth" about the universe in mathematics. In the meantime most scientists have concluded that the ultimate "truth" is something science cannot prove one way or the other. As I think I understand it, the "laws" of mathematics and physics are mental creations that are useful for analyzing the phenomena we observe and coming to better understanding of them, and for predicting what will happen under hypothetical conditions. The straight lines relative to which the path of the bucket and the surface of the water are curved are just such creations. The water acts predictably in accordance with the characteristics of our universe, but the reasons for those characteristics may be unknowable.

Perhaps you should take this up in the "Reality" thread in Science and Technology. A very small number of people are arguing back and forth interminably. A fresh voice over there might be very interesting.

Thanks, will do, I will also post it with my thoughts as to why there are more to the laws than just understanding of phenomenon.

George
2015-May-18, 05:08 PM
I suspect someone who understands Mach's principle as applied to the bucket case will be able to help you. The question is whether or not the mass of the universe is required to act on the water to create the surface curvature. Most, I think, will favor that the universe is necessary for that effect, but I am not qualified to say.

Swift
2015-May-18, 06:11 PM
This discussion is going to take place in this thread (http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread.php?156957-Newton-s-Bucket-A-New-Look).