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fltazar
2015-Jul-26, 03:55 AM
It really disturbs me to see all these fuzzy and out of focus images of the Moon and the rest of them. You would think with the technology we have that they could put a better camera on a space craft instead of the one bought at Walmart. Even if the are telescope image, that has a lot to say about the operator. I would of expected better from my Country. If they don't want us to see something, then don't put the picture up.

Jens
2015-Jul-26, 01:25 PM
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've seen very sharp pictures of the Moon...

schlaugh
2015-Jul-26, 01:58 PM
And other planets and moons. Can you provide an example?

fltazar
2015-Jul-26, 07:34 PM
Sure, I don't save them, I pass by them, but here is one of many I can supply for you. Fuzzy and out of focus.20827

DonM435
2015-Jul-26, 09:33 PM
On Monday Night Football they've been known to do a camera zoom on the moon between plays. Is that what you mean?

DaveC426913
2015-Jul-26, 10:57 PM
Sure, I don't save them, I pass by them, but here is one of many I can supply for you. Fuzzy and out of focus.20827

And this came from where? A reputable site? An iPhone upload on Instagram?

On the right edge, you can see a sun symbol. This is obviously a pic manipulated to demonstrate the source of sunlit and shadowed areas on the Moon's surface. Who knows how many conversions it's been through. What's more, the image you attached is a PNG. It was almost certainly originally a JPG, which is lossy to begin with. I'll bet the original photo was markedly clearer before an unknown number of conversions.

Perhaps, before blaming your "country", you should determine just what the source - and purpose of this photo is. ;)

NEOWatcher
2015-Jul-27, 02:17 AM
And this came from where? A reputable site? An iPhone upload on Instagram?
Considering this thread is in "Moon Mappers" and "Moon Mappers" is a project under the Cosmoquest umbrella, I would think that it's quite obviously a good chance that it's a "Moon Mapper" image.


Fitazar; About what percentage of the pictures are like this?
I would be sure that we can't get such high resolution pictures of the entire moon and that we would have to suffer through some low quality photos. That's science.

I have not worked with Moon Mappers myself, but I have participated in the Stardust project. In it, there were test photos too. These were used to judge the quality of the observers working on the project. Perhaps this is what some of these are.

fltazar
2015-Jul-27, 03:25 PM
Wow are we even on the same Planet. That image came from Cosmoquest where people do mapping of the moon. The little Sun you see is more a gauge and not light. The craters have to be the size or larger then that sun. I thought this Forum was Cosmoquest.org Forum. Tell me what program are you using to map the Moon if any. I just got on a new sight the is mapping the south pole of Mars and very rarely do I get an out of focus image and they are .jpg. The ones from Cosmoquest are .png. I do have more blurry and out of focus images, but why should I post them if I'm going to be criticized. Sorry to have bothered you with this.

fltazar
2015-Jul-27, 03:37 PM
Considering this thread is in "Moon Mappers" and "Moon Mappers" is a project under the Cosmoquest umbrella, I would think that it's quite obviously a good chance that it's a "Moon Mapper" image.


Fitazar; About what percentage of the pictures are like this?
I would be sure that we can't get such high resolution pictures of the entire moon and that we would have to suffer through some low quality photos. That's science.

I have not worked with Moon Mappers myself, but I have participated in the Stardust project. In it, there were test photos too. These were used to judge the quality of the observers working on the project. Perhaps this is what some of these are.

NEOWatcher, thank you for letting me know I am not crazy. Yes that image is from the Mapping program Cosmoquest has. They give us a section to Map. They won't tell us how large the section is because their excuse is it varys. Old the pictures come from Orbiting Craft and I would say probably 25% of the images I Map are terrible. Out of focus, blurry and fuzzy. At first I thought maybe they didn't want me to see what was in the image, but that can't be. This is why I had said to start I was very disappointed with the quality being we have spent so much money putting these Crafts up.

Cosmoquest also have others you can Map. Vesta taken by Dawn are great images. Only a few I found blurry. Mercury, I gave up on Mapping it because the images were so bad. The other program is Zooinverse Mars Mapping the South pole. I would say 5% of the images are bad. But they don't have no little sun image for you to calculate crater size. They have a list along side the image that you click on what you see in the image.

So, not wonder everyone was confused and I hope I have answered all the questions. It is an outrage that we can't get perfect images from these programs.

DonM435
2015-Jul-27, 03:47 PM
It seems to me that if you're trying to detect landmark craters that would be readily seen by anyone to serve as guide points, indistinct photographs could be a useful part of the process.

Amber Robot
2015-Jul-27, 04:34 PM
The little Sun you see is more a gauge and not light. The craters have to be the size or larger then that sun.

I do not believe that these craters are larger than the Sun. Why do you think that?

Swift
2015-Jul-27, 05:24 PM
I have sent a PM to one of the project scientists for the citizen science projects to take a look at this thread. Hopefully she can answer the questions. The regular forum moderation team has no supervisory involvement with the citizen science programs, so we can't answer these questions.

fltazar
2015-Jul-28, 02:01 AM
I didn't say in this image.. The other images that I see and there in the 1000s now.

DaveC426913
2015-Jul-28, 02:37 AM
Wow are we even on the same Planet. That image came from Cosmoquest where people do mapping of the moon.
That would have been helpful to know up front. You posted a pic with zero context, and then blamed your country for it.

The quality of an answer is proportional to the quality of the question asked.


I do have more blurry and out of focus images, but why should I post them if I'm going to be criticized.I assumed you posted because you wanted answers to your questions.

DaveC426913
2015-Jul-28, 02:39 AM
Considering this thread is in "Moon Mappers" and "Moon Mappers" is a project under the Cosmoquest umbrella, I would think that it's quite obviously a good chance that it's a "Moon Mapper" image.


Fitazar; About what percentage of the pictures are like this?
I would be sure that we can't get such high resolution pictures of the entire moon and that we would have to suffer through some low quality photos. That's science.

I have not worked with Moon Mappers myself, but I have participated in the Stardust project. In it, there were test photos too. These were used to judge the quality of the observers working on the project. Perhaps this is what some of these are.



Considering this thread is in "Moon Mappers" and "Moon Mappers" is a project under the Cosmoquest umbrella, I would think that it's quite obviously a good chance that it's a "Moon Mapper" image.Obviously? You sir, have the deductive horsepower of Sherlock Holmes.:D

Jeff Root
2015-Jul-29, 08:31 AM
I'm not participating in Moon Mapping, but noticed this thread.

There are lots of reasons why images might be blurry or unclear,
but they should never be out of focus. That is almost impossible,
as far as I know. Something seriously bad would have to happen
to the optics or camera.

The example image does have a very "soft" look. But I wonder
if that isn't due to the terrain and lighting.

Given the position of the "sun" symbol at the edge of the image,
I would surmise that it marks the direction of the Sun from the
center of the image. A line from the center of the image to the
center of the sun symbol is perpendicular to the edges of the
shadows in the large craters.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

fltazar
2015-Jul-29, 08:53 PM
Given the position of the "sun" symbol at the edge of the image,
I would surmise that it marks the direction of the Sun from the
center of the image.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis[/QUOTE]

Jeff as I have said in other posts here, the Sun symbol is not to show the direction of light. It is there to show us mappers how big the crater has to be to be marked. I have many more that are blurry and out of focus. I have real dark craters. But I normally don't keep them in file. They serve no use to me.

Dan

fltazar
2015-Jul-29, 09:06 PM
Okay for all you that think I'm lying I just saved this image of the Moon. I circled one crater to show how we map and the size with relation to that Sun symbol. All I was wondering is why are these out of focus. Could the craft itself experience turbulence like Jet Planes do here on Earth?

Dan20849

Jeff Root
2015-Jul-30, 01:45 AM
fltazar,

I note that your second sample image is the same size as the
first, and that the sun symbol is in exactly the same location.
However I also see that the direction that the sunlight is coming
from is the same, too. The angle from the center of the image
to the center of the sun symbol matches the angle of shadows
in the largest craters.

Do you think that is a coincidence?

So I did a Google search for "instructions for moon mappers".
The second hit was the "Moon Mappers FAQ":

http://cosmoquest.org/x/moon-mappers-faq/

That page links to this "Lighting Effects Guide":

http://cosmoquest.org/x/moon-mappers-tutorials/lighting-effects-guide/



.. the Moon Mappers task interfaces use a little sun symbol to tell
you the illumination direction, or where the sun is shining from.
Use the information from this symbol to help you figure out if you
are looking at a hill or a depression.

Take a look at the image with a notation in big red letters, and
a big red arrow pointing at the sun symbol.

When you do a job, you need to learn how to do it.

But I also have a criticism for whoever composed the page.
The paragraph immediately below that image has a serious
error. Two rights don't make a left.


As for the fuzzy images, the main problem may simply be that
they are at the limit of the camera's resolution. You are looking
at the smallest things the camera can resolve at that distance.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

fltazar
2015-Jul-30, 09:44 PM
When you do a job, you need to learn how to do it.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis[/QUOTE]




Thank you Jeff for that information. But, when I went through learning guide which is hands on it said that the circle that I make should be the same size or larger the the Sun Symbol. As long as I have been doing the mapping, the Sun symbol has never moved from that spot as you can see by both images. So I have learned a little here, but didn't get my question answered so I will not pursue this any longer.


Dan

NEOWatcher
2015-Jul-30, 11:34 PM
All I was wondering is why are these out of focus. Could the craft itself experience turbulence like Jet Planes do here on Earth?

So I have learned a little here, but didn't get my question answered so I will not pursue this any longer.

The answer about turbulence is "no".

Just to pose some ideas...
I don't know what the specs of LRO are about focal length or other camera properties, but I would guess that it's possible that at times in it's orbit the pictures may be outside the clear range of the equipment. With a 30x126km eccentric orbit, that's a big range of distances that it would have to focus on.
I also don't know if there are any attitude adjustments that could affect the movement of the craft.

As far as marking the sizes. You are correct. I have seen references to mark 18 pixels and larger. The sun icon is that size. I have also seen references to "craters larger than 35m". I don't know if there is a direct relation here because of the different altitudes, but the "mark the ones at least as big as the sun icon" does seem valid. (Not having gone through the training myself)

bknight
2015-Aug-02, 12:42 PM
The answer about turbulence is "no".

Just to pose some ideas...
I don't know what the specs of LRO are about focal length or other camera properties, but I would guess that it's possible that at times in it's orbit the pictures may be outside the clear range of the equipment. With a 30x126km eccentric orbit, that's a big range of distances that it would have to focus on.
I also don't know if there are any attitude adjustments that could affect the movement of the craft.

As far as marking the sizes. You are correct. I have seen references to mark 18 pixels and larger. The sun icon is that size. I have also seen references to "craters larger than 35m". I don't know if there is a direct relation here because of the different altitudes, but the "mark the ones at least as big as the sun icon" does seem valid. (Not having gone through the training myself)

I did a search at http://www.lroc.asu.edu/about/specs and found the two camera specifications. On this site one can view and interactive moon zooming in to closer views. Once you get to around 16-32 m per pixel the mosaic of the orbiters pictures comes into focus. There are black regions, where no image may exist(?) then there are images laying side by side that are of very different clarity. Some very clear and some very fuzzy. Lighting also varies, and this should be expected since the cameras imaged at different sun angles.

NEOWatcher
2015-Aug-02, 01:18 PM
On this site one can view and interactive moon zooming in to closer views.
I like that one better than Google Moon. (direct link (http://target.lroc.asu.edu/q3/))


There are black regions, where no image may exist(?)
There are some narrow strips where no image exists, but I also saw rectangles that may or may not be there. It looks like just a delay in the software where each tile of the picture might not refresh. I did some zooming and panning in one area and the tile did appear.


then there are images laying side by side that are of very different clarity. Some very clear and some very fuzzy. Lighting also varies, and this should be expected since the cameras imaged at different sun angles.
It also looks like different instruments. I played around with the NAC and WAC layers and it seems like there's a lot of areas not covered by the NAC camera. I would guess that moon mappers have a mix of the two.

I also wonder about the effect of the filters, like if some pictures are with different filters and if these effect the resolution.

cjameshuff
2015-Aug-02, 04:02 PM
I also wonder about the effect of the filters, like if some pictures are with different filters and if these effect the resolution.

There's always some degree of blur in a focused image. The diffraction limit imposes an unavoidable limit to the amount of detail that can be resolved, and that limit depends on wavelength. If a camera covering a wide range of wavelengths has a sensor with just enough resolution to pick up the resolvable details at the blue end of its spectrum, images taken at the red end of the spectrum will be blurry. Perfectly sharp images at the red end would mean that you aren't getting the full capabilities of your optics at the blue end, because your sensor is the limiting factor.

For finding craters, they are presumably more interested in contrast of relatively large scale features than in tiny details.

bknight
2015-Aug-03, 12:08 AM
I like that one better than Google Moon. (direct link (http://target.lroc.asu.edu/q3/))


There are some narrow strips where no image exists, but I also saw rectangles that may or may not be there. It looks like just a delay in the software where each tile of the picture might not refresh. I did some zooming and panning in one area and the tile did appear.

It also looks like different instruments. I played around with the NAC and WAC layers and it seems like there's a lot of areas not covered by the NAC camera. I would guess that moon mappers have a mix of the two.

I also wonder about the effect of the filters, like if some pictures are with different filters and if these effect the resolution.
I took your advice and waited on some of them and most disappeared within a few seconds.
Still there appears to be panels that have less clarity than neighboring panels. I would think a filter effect might be along the path of that particular orbit, and clearer images have not been processed or added to the overall view.

NEOWatcher
2015-Aug-03, 12:26 AM
With what layers active?
If you have both NAC and WAC layers on, the default panel will be WAC with the NAC overlaying it. So; there might be some issues with the panels themselves.

bknight
2015-Aug-03, 10:45 AM
Mine indicates WAC Mosaic + NACs.
So switching to WAC Mosaic (no shadows).
At 32 m per pixel and centering around Lat. 1.0091 Lon. -2388, looking at crater at 1.0126, -.3116 is inside a panel that is less clear than panels on either side.
I'm learning a lot about this feature!

roxanwright
2016-May-18, 07:47 AM
The moon image is fine for me. Very sharp details of the moon. The camera they use could is so high resolution that it can able to take pictures outside of our solar system.

reilly
2017-Dec-13, 07:27 AM
Good discussion. The image looks fine to me either.

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2018-Mar-09, 06:02 AM
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