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View Full Version : Discussions about security forces (the nature, functions, and the reality)



Inclusa
2015-Sep-27, 06:35 AM
Almost all states or regions have security forces (here it means police or the military mostly).
The roles of the police and the military are extremely different, but there are overlaps. Can some people clarify?
Coastal guards act as both part of the military and law enforcement forces. (At least in the USA).
A few people on this forum have been with the security force, and I like input from insiders.
While TV series, documentaries and movies about security forces are too numerous to name, I guess they probably can be distorted.
For instance, I heard that real police officers rarely (if ever) use their firearms (these are for extreme situations).
Let's discuss, are there really transferable skills for former military personnels to use in the civilian work force?

Jens
2015-Sep-27, 07:01 AM
For instance, I heard that real police officers rarely (if ever) use their firearms (these are for extreme situations).
Let's discuss, are there really transferable skills for former military personnels to use in the civilian work force?

I'm not an insider at all, but it's easy to imagine that there are. Just to take a simple example, using communication technology effectively is a skill that will come in handy in both, as well as many others. So are paramedic skills, for example.

Noclevername
2015-Sep-27, 10:15 AM
Let's discuss, are there really transferable skills for former military personnels to use in the civilian work force?

About 90%, I'd say. Lots of things done by the military are things also done by civilians; maintaining and repairing vehicles and equipment, supporting personnel (feeding, medical care, etc.), and moving materials. Only a fraction of the military actually use weapons as part of their job description. Someone still needs to answer the phones.

Solfe
2015-Sep-27, 01:57 PM
A few years ago, Nik Wallenda tight rope walked the Falls. They tried to use a cannon to get the line across. I was surprised that there is a company that provides cannon service. :)

swampyankee
2015-Sep-28, 02:03 AM
A few years ago, Nik Wallenda tight rope walked the Falls. They tried to use a cannon to get the line across. I was surprised that there is a company that provides cannon service. :)

A line-throwing gun, pehaps?

Solfe
2015-Sep-28, 02:26 AM
A line-throwing gun, pehaps?

I don't know. I googled line throwing gun and got images of things way too small. This was about the size of 12 pounder, maybe bigger. It didn't look like a regular gun, but some silvery metal creation. It put a dart all the way across the gorge and it tore through a bunch of trees. As in right through the trees and made a big mess of the line.

They needed a different method. I think they used a helicopter or boat in the end. I can't reall.

PetersCreek
2015-Sep-28, 02:50 AM
Only a fraction of the military actually use weapons as part of their job description. Someone still needs to answer the phones.

This is true only in part. Speaking from my USAF experience: while a fraction of specialties require the use of small arms on a day-to-day basis, most (virtually all) must periodically demonstrate basic proficiency with the M-16 on an annual basis. I never failed to qualify as "expert" in my annual quals and I also served on Air Base Ground Defense and Nuclear/Biological/Chemical augmentation teams aside from my regular specialty. Both involved weapon use.

That said, many of the police officers with prior military experience I have known came from a military law enforcement or security police/forces background.

redshifter
2015-Sep-28, 05:04 AM
Many companies are interested in hiring folks that served in the military for intangible skills as well, as opposed to those directly related to civilian jobs. By intangible I mean the values many folks learn in the military around learning how hard you can really push yourself, leadership, integrity, etc.

korjik
2015-Sep-28, 05:09 AM
There are alot of skills that dont seem to be skills that the military can teach. How to follow orders and why is probably the first and foremost. Learning that sometimes you are the dog, and sometimes you are hydrant is another one that gets taught. Kinda goes with the first.

How to give a report is probably the second most important thing. You get taught what is important and how to prioritize info when passing it along. I've seen this one in action in the last couple years. My brother became a sheriffs deputy a couple years ago and while it used to be a nightmare to get information from him, or get directions, now he gives the info needed quickly and concisely.

To a large degree the weapon and tactics are probably the useful things you are trained in. It is all the other bits that go into becoming a soldier that are useful outside the military

Noclevername
2015-Sep-29, 05:27 PM
This is true only in part. Speaking from my USAF experience: while a fraction of specialties require the use of small arms on a day-to-day basis, most (virtually all) must periodically demonstrate basic proficiency with the M-16 on an annual basis.

Well, somebody has to shoot the phones.

blueshift
2015-Sep-29, 08:35 PM
I was trained as a radio and television broadcast specialist at Fort Benjamin Harrison while I was in the Army. That included directing, switching, doing camera work, lighting, setting up antennas, organizing and writing script for spots and doing documentaries and making propaganda for broadcast and for leaflets. I trained with several people who were already in the business before they were inducted. I had the chance to become a radio disc jockey when returning to civilian life but turned it down.

A lot of pilots I knew in the service became airline pilots when they left the service.

There are some myths about obeying orders in the military. The oath taken was first to be defenders of the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Secondly, we were recognize the chain of command and that there is a condition and procedure for disobeying orders. If the order violated the principles of the U.S. Constitution, the handling of prisoners agreed upon at the Geneva Convention, then a soldier is to first question the order and, if confirmed, to give a direct order to a subordinate to put the officer under arrest. We had a film on it.

Solfe
2015-Sep-30, 03:05 AM
Following instructions and protocol (not orders) is a critical life skill that serves you well outside of the military. Having a person tell the correct person (or group) an instruction or policy doesn't make sense,(politely) is a great job skill. Actually having a suggested fix is even better. Nothing stinks more than un-actionable criticism.

Jens
2015-Sep-30, 04:22 AM
Following instructions and protocol (not orders) is a critical life skill that serves you well outside of the military.

And in fact I think it's a skill that is taught in the military but in other places as well. I think a big part of elementary school is to teach people to follow instructions and protocol. A major part of "functional literacy" is the ability to read a form and realize how to follow the instructions. Tests at school are probably the beginning of that training.

Fiery Phoenix
2015-Sep-30, 04:24 AM
I have been told on multiple occasions that a fair percentage of police officers in the States are in fact ex-military.

Inclusa
2015-Oct-05, 03:02 AM
I was trained as a radio and television broadcast specialist at Fort Benjamin Harrison while I was in the Army. That included directing, switching, doing camera work, lighting, setting up antennas, organizing and writing script for spots and doing documentaries and making propaganda for broadcast and for leaflets. I trained with several people who were already in the business before they were inducted. I had the chance to become a radio disc jockey when returning to civilian life but turned it down.

A lot of pilots I knew in the service became airline pilots when they left the service.

There are some myths about obeying orders in the military. The oath taken was first to be defenders of the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. Secondly, we were recognize the chain of command and that there is a condition and procedure for disobeying orders. If the order violated the principles of the U.S. Constitution, the handling of prisoners agreed upon at the Geneva Convention, then a soldier is to first question the order and, if confirmed, to give a direct order to a subordinate to put the officer under arrest. We had a film on it.

With these in mind, probably "the return to civilian jobs" isn't exactly as tough as some media try to portray.
The function of a forum is often for insiders' opinions, since the media usually take the view of outsiders.

Noclevername
2015-Oct-05, 03:11 AM
With these in mind, probably "the return to civilian jobs" isn't exactly as tough as some media try to portray.
The function of a forum is often for insiders' opinions, since the media usually take the view of outsiders.

The difficulty of returning is not always job related. And finding jobs in the current economy is difficult for everyone, but more so for those who have been out of the market for a period of several years and who may be called up again at any time.

Bucerotidae
2015-Oct-05, 01:21 PM
And finding jobs in the current economy is difficult for everyone

Maybe in your current economy. In mine, my people keep leaving because they get better jobs.

Swift
2015-Oct-05, 01:53 PM
Maybe in your current economy. In mine, my people keep leaving because they get better jobs.
By the way, happy birthday.

LookingSkyward
2015-Oct-05, 09:52 PM
In the current US Navy, there are a lot of IT related skills taught that are directly usable in the civilian world. Much more so than when I was in - although the electronics and computer skills I picked up became more relevant as the use of personal computers picked up in the 90s.

PetersCreek
2015-Oct-05, 10:29 PM
One of the obstacles to post-career employment is translating skills acquired in the military into terms that employers can understand and apply to their requirements. There are transition assistance programs and employment workshops aimed at helping service members write a more successful resume but there's still room for a lot of improvement, judging from what I've seen come across my desk. The military has a language(s) all its own and specialties add jargon of their own to the mix. It can be nearly incomprehensible to civilian employers with no military experience of their own and can send a package to the bottom of the heap, if not off the desk entirely. To complicate it further, the military has a different paradigm...a "business model" if you will...with expectations and outcomes that often don't have a direct parallel in civilian careers. Briefly, the trick is to translate "take that hill" into "make that money." It poses a challenge for some, both on paper and during the interview.

slang
2015-Oct-05, 11:18 PM
With these in mind, probably "the return to civilian jobs" isn't exactly as tough as some media try to portray.

There's a difference between "having served", i.e. peacetime duty, and "having been in combat", and the demons the latter will make you ride your shoulders as you return to society. There are plenty of other demons though, so nobody ought to feel left out.

Inclusa
2015-Oct-07, 02:37 AM
One of the obstacles to post-career employment is translating skills acquired in the military into terms that employers can understand and apply to their requirements. There are transition assistance programs and employment workshops aimed at helping service members write a more successful resume but there's still room for a lot of improvement, judging from what I've seen come across my desk. The military has a language(s) all its own and specialties add jargon of their own to the mix. It can be nearly incomprehensible to civilian employers with no military experience of their own and can send a package to the bottom of the heap, if not off the desk entirely. To complicate it further, the military has a different paradigm...a "business model" if you will...with expectations and outcomes that often don't have a direct parallel in civilian careers. Briefly, the trick is to translate "take that hill" into "make that money." It poses a challenge for some, both on paper and during the interview.

Career change isn't exactly easy, especially when the change is between one form of professional, skilled career to another one.

Inclusa
2015-Oct-10, 06:53 AM
By the way, I read this:

My friend was an infantry marine, now he is a nurse.

Let's point out what's common between an infantry marine and a nurse beside the fact that both strive to protect lives.

Inclusa
2015-Oct-10, 06:57 AM
By the way, I read this:

My friend was an infantry marine, now he is a nurse.

Let's point out what's common between an infantry marine and a nurse beside the fact that both strive to protect lives.

Noclevername
2015-Oct-10, 07:03 AM
By the way, I read this:

My friend was an infantry marine, now he is a nurse.

Let's point out what's common between an infantry marine and a nurse beside the fact that both strive to protect lives.

Both wear uniforms? Both can wield sharp objects?

UntrainedObserver
2015-Oct-10, 08:18 AM
Almost all states or regions have security forces (here it means police or the military mostly).
The roles of the police and the military are extremely different, but there are overlaps. Can some people clarify?

Well, if you find that overlapping, then Italy's not the place for you ;) (i'm Italian, born, raised and still living nel Bel Paese :whistle:....)

We have at least four national police agencies: Carabinieri, Polizia di Stato, Guardia di Finanza and Guardia Forestale.
Of this four, the first two, Carabinieri and Polizia, are "general" law enforcement agencies, with the Carabinieri having a much more capillary presence on the Italian territory (if I rember correctly, every town with at least 5000 inhabitants must have a Carabinieri precint house...).
The real difference was in the chain of command: until some years ago, the Carabinieri answered to the Ministero della Difesa (Ministry of Defence), with the Polizia answering to the Ministero dell'Interno (Ministry of Homeland Security, more or less).
The Guardia di Finanza is a financial and economic police force: it deals with fiscal crimes (tax evasion in particular, a sort of national pastime here in Italy :rolleyes: ), customs duty and the like.
The Guardia Forestale (currently on the way of absorption by some other force, probably Polizia di Stato) deals with enviromental crimes and demanial areas security.
And this are only the national forces: every town has its own local police force (Polizia Municipale), mainly for highway patrol (every officer of the national forces can do it, of course...)

Confusing ? Welcome to Italy :D !






Coastal guards act as both part of the military and law enforcement forces. (At least in the USA).
A few people on this forum have been with the security force, and I like input from insiders.
While TV series, documentaries and movies about security forces are too numerous to name, I guess they probably can be distorted.
For instance, I heard that real police officers rarely (if ever) use their firearms (these are for extreme situations).
Let's discuss, are there really transferable skills for former military personnels to use in the civilian work force?

Jens
2015-Oct-10, 08:44 AM
By the way, I read this:

My friend was an infantry marine, now he is a nurse.

Let's point out what's common between an infantry marine and a nurse beside the fact that both strive to protect lives.

I don't think that when a person changed careers there has to be a connection. People sometimes change to an unrelated career.

Jens
2015-Oct-10, 08:48 AM
Though of course all careers are fundamentally related in some way. You do something that somebody wants done, and they pay you for it. The first condition may not apply for a thief, and the second not for a slave, but those are hardly careers.

grapes
2015-Oct-10, 09:16 AM
I don't know. I googled line throwing gun and got images of things way too small. This was about the size of 12 pounder, maybe bigger. It didn't look like a regular gun, but some silvery metal creation. It put a dart all the way across the gorge and it tore through a bunch of trees. As in right through the trees and made a big mess of the line.

They needed a different method. I think they used a helicopter or boat in the end. I can't reall.
Wow, that was only s couple years ago.

In the late 70s, one of the Everest climbs used a cannon to place a long line (no trees though) then a Honda engine to ferry stuff up the line

Inclusa
2015-Dec-13, 02:38 AM
Since some people bring up the topic about robotic android cops, I decide to bring this trend up once more.
Certainly, we can use robotic androids to "charge" into potentially dangerous situations first (remember certain police officers killed in spit of the bullet resistant vests?)
The human "trophy" (trophy is the protection system that fights projectile attacks on tanks) is hardly possible due to the size and numbers of projectiles (especially from an assault rifle.)

swampyankee
2015-Dec-13, 05:33 AM
Well, if you find that overlapping, then Italy's not the place for you ;) (i'm Italian, born, raised and still living nel Bel Paese :whistle:....)

We have at least four national police agencies: Carabinieri, Polizia di Stato, Guardia di Finanza and Guardia Forestale.
Of this four, the first two, Carabinieri and Polizia, are "general" law enforcement agencies, with the Carabinieri having a much more capillary presence on the Italian territory (if I rember correctly, every town with at least 5000 inhabitants must have a Carabinieri precint house...).
The real difference was in the chain of command: until some years ago, the Carabinieri answered to the Ministero della Difesa (Ministry of Defence), with the Polizia answering to the Ministero dell'Interno (Ministry of Homeland Security, more or less).
The Guardia di Finanza is a financial and economic police force: it deals with fiscal crimes (tax evasion in particular, a sort of national pastime here in Italy :rolleyes: ), customs duty and the like.
The Guardia Forestale (currently on the way of absorption by some other force, probably Polizia di Stato) deals with enviromental crimes and demanial areas security.
And this are only the national forces: every town has its own local police force (Polizia Municipale), mainly for highway patrol (every officer of the national forces can do it, of course...)

Confusing ? Welcome to Italy :D !

I think that a lot of people in the US like to think we don't have overlapping and, on occasion, mutually antagonistic police forces. We've got at least six armed agencies with federal (nation-wide) remits: FBI, DEA, ATFE, Marshals, Immigration & Customs Enforcement, and the Secret Service, and several unarmed law enforcement agencies, including the SEC, EPA, and FTC. The Coast Guard and Border Guard are also armed agencies with major law enforcement roles. There are also armed law enforcement agencies within the Dept of Agriculture (Forest Service), Department of Interior (NPS Rangers and Park Police), Department of Energy (Office of Secure Transportation), Air Marshalls, Bureau of Indian Affairs Police, Bureau of Land Management Rangers, Department of Veterans' Affairs, and for the Merchant Marine Academy; these are nation-wide but don't more limited roles. Conrail and Amtrak, which are publicly owned, also have armed police agencies.

Can I move to Italy? You only have four national police departments ;)

Solfe
2015-Dec-13, 06:22 AM
I don't think that when a person changed careers there has to be a connection. People sometimes change to an unrelated career.

That seems to be my career path. Electrical worker, retail electrical work, telephone work, HTML stuff, IT support, Art Design, Copy Editor, Engineer's Liaison, Special Education. My Special Ed degree with have some drafting, CAD, dance, oil painting, chemistry, history and so on.

Inclusa
2015-Dec-14, 04:14 AM
That seems to be my career path. Electrical worker, retail electrical work, telephone work, HTML stuff, IT support, Art Design, Copy Editor, Engineer's Liaison, Special Education. My Special Ed degree with have some drafting, CAD, dance, oil painting, chemistry, history and so on.

This sounds quite incredibly, but do we often change paths in life?

Noclevername
2015-Dec-14, 08:29 AM
This sounds quite incredibly, but do we often change paths in life?

Unless you mean the Royal "we", yes, many people do change paths often enough, from desire or from necessity. I certainly have.

LookingSkyward
2015-Dec-15, 06:00 PM
This sounds quite incredibly, but do we often change paths in life? Most people I know have changed directions many times.

Solfe
2015-Dec-25, 04:54 AM
This sounds quite incredibly, but do we often change paths in life?

I do. For the longest time I was earning money without having a real profession. When I stopped to think about what I really wanted to do, I thought "graduate college and work in the community", hopefully before age 40. I made it by ten days.

I even took a year off to volunteer. I call it "my year of service". I never had the chance to join the military, so I decided to do something else. I spent some quality time at the local science museum, scouting, and religious ed focusing on special needs children. I had a great time as a volunteer. Now I can pitch a tent, light a fire with a bow, use an laser engraver, "drive" a gene sequencer, and know basic first aide and CPR. I built a great network of friends and contacts.

Recently (11 days ago), I moved from a special education private school (a 6-1-3 classroom) to a public school where 80% of the children don't speak English. It is exciting and I love it. I can't say that about the other dozen things I have done. My only regret is not having time to volunteer as much. I figure that working with children is "enough", but sometimes I miss the volunteer work.

Inclusa
2015-Dec-25, 05:15 AM
I do. For the longest time I was earning money without having a real profession. When I stopped to think about what I really wanted to do, I thought "graduate college and work in the community", hopefully before age 40. I made it by ten days.

I even took a year off to volunteer. I call it "my year of service". I never had the chance to join the military, so I decided to do something else. I spent some quality time at the local science museum, scouting, and religious ed focusing on special needs children. I had a great time as a volunteer. Now I can pitch a tent, light a fire with a bow, use an laser engraver, "drive" a gene sequencer, and know basic first aide and CPR. I built a great network of friends and contacts.

Recently (11 days ago), I moved from a special education private school (a 6-1-3 classroom) to a public school where 80% of the children don't speak English. It is exciting and I love it. I can't say that about the other dozen things I have done. My only regret is not having time to volunteer as much. I figure that working with children is "enough", but sometimes I miss the volunteer work.

Some people have noticed that my native language isn't quite English, but I have a few mixed bags of issues beside being a non-native English user (namely "non-verbal learning disability and some signs of Asperger's Syndrome.)
Then again, when I contrast myself with another forum member with this condition, I realize why we need to treat these people individually.

Solfe
2015-Dec-25, 05:32 AM
Some people have noticed that my native language isn't quite English, but I have a few mixed bags of issues beside being a non-native English user (namely "non-verbal learning disability and some signs of Asperger's Syndrome.)
Then again, when I contrast myself with another forum member with this condition, I realize why we need to treat these people individually.

In EXE 101 (Exceptional Education), the first rule is not to get hung up on labels and to treat individuals with respect. It is pretty basic, if you fail to understand go back to step one and repeat until you "get it". Sometimes you just can't, but the respect thing keeps you in safe water.

duckduckgo
2015-Dec-25, 06:57 PM
In EXE 101 (Exceptional Education), the first rule is not to get hung up on labels and to treat individuals with respect. It is pretty basic, if you fail to understand go back to step one and repeat until you "get it". Sometimes you just can't, but the respect thing keeps you in safe water.

Understanding a principle is different from practicing it all the time, though.

NewHalf
2015-Dec-25, 10:47 PM
In some countries there is very little crossover between the military and police. If the police don't carry guns and base policing on compromise rather than confrontation then there is no place for military training and veterans make very bad police. As a rule of thumb countries with a large number of female police officers have very few ex-military officers.