PDA

View Full Version : Problem with going underground



JHotz
2005-Feb-02, 07:44 PM
Problem with going underground

I would like help in compiling a list of issues with underground habitation. Here are some that I can think of
1. flooding
2. ventilation
3. cave in
4. high humidity
5. fire
6. claustrophobia
7. Lack of sunlight
8. Lack of natural solar rhythm
I task respondents to explain any corresponding problem with extraterrestrial habitation, how to address the problem or explain advantage.

If you have any ideas on how to make it an environment people want to live in please elaborate.
Thank You

Yorkshireman
2005-Feb-02, 07:48 PM
Time: 2 hours.
Answer all the questions. Extra sheets are available from the Invigilator on request.
Mathematical tables are provided.

skrap1r0n
2005-Feb-02, 08:42 PM
I am assuming you are talking about unground on another planet or moon and not here on earth.



1. flooding
If you have a problem with water flooding you then your design probably wont sustain life anyway. On mars or the moon, IIRC, water will sublimate on both mars and the moon. free flowing water isn't possible.


2. ventilation
Not a problem. You would have to place scrubbers in the systems and you couls also flow it through a starilization vent. the sterilization vent would be essentially clear tubes that lie above the surface. The UV rad from the sun would help clean the airflow.


3. cave in
Again, this is directly related to poor design.


4. high humidity
Dehumidifiers in the vent system


5. fire
This is an issue in ANY environment.


6. claustrophobia
Rotation of crew. It would be easy enough to build a large open cavern to help alleviate this.


7. Lack of sunlight
Sunroofs. Solid, acrylic cylinders could draw light into the facility


8. Lack of natural solar rhythm
No solar rhythm ie easy enough to compensate for. Have the lighting system set to simulate earth time. Circadian cycles will adjust.

tofu
2005-Feb-02, 08:51 PM
LOL at Yorkshireman


Sunroofs. Solid, acrylic cylinders could draw light into the facility
you might also be able to use fiberoptics. That might be cheaper. Certainly, it would allow you to spread the collectors over a large area so that they'd be hard to notice, if that is a concern. Also, each collector could have a small cover so that you could turn the lights out during a nuclear attack, again if that's a concern. Also, you could run fiber optics into a lot of the rooms, not just the green houses, and lower your energy costs. It might also be neat to put the collectors on the south side of a moutain so that they could "see" farther over the horizon and give light for longer periods of time.

skrap1r0n
2005-Feb-02, 09:02 PM
LOL at Yorkshireman


Sunroofs. Solid, acrylic cylinders could draw light into the facility
you might also be able to use fiberoptics. That might be cheaper. Certainly, it would allow you to spread the collectors over a large area so that they'd be hard to notice, if that is a concern. Also, each collector could have a small cover so that you could turn the lights out during a nuclear attack, again if that's a concern. Also, you could run fiber optics into a lot of the rooms, not just the green houses, and lower your energy costs. It might also be neat to put the collectors on the south side of a moutain so that they could "see" farther over the horizon and give light for longer periods of time.

Thats sorta what I was referring to, Using large acrylic cylinders to pipe the light into the facility. Same Idea just different methods.

Doodler
2005-Feb-02, 09:12 PM
Problem with going underground

I would like help in compiling a list of issues with underground habitation. Here are some that I can think of
1. flooding
2. ventilation
3. cave in
4. high humidity
5. fire
6. claustrophobia
7. Lack of sunlight
8. Lack of natural solar rhythm
I task respondents to explain any corresponding problem with extraterrestrial habitation, how to address the problem or explain advantage.

If you have any ideas on how to make it an environment people want to live in please elaborate.
Thank You


This list is kinda ad hoc, but point by point.

1. Not really germane anywhere but Earth. Anywhere else, if you have a breach of environmental seal sufficient to allow for flooding by the local liquid, you've got MUCH bigger problems.

2. Old tech here, the hard part is keeping the CO2 scrubbers suppied, or having some local means of recycling air. Now, internal fresh air supply to a room in terms of traditional HVAC design can be resolved by a small 6 x 12 vent in the door, sealable in the event of a breach, or by a more tradition non-sealing door with a 1 inch gap at the top or bottom. This is assuming a commercial standard 3'-0" wide by 7'-0" tall hollow metal or solid core wood door.

3. I think after how many hundreds of years of mining and underground living, the design issues with subterrainean excavation are pretty much understood and respected.

4. A decent air conditioning system can extract the excess humidity to within 30% like nobody's business without breaking a sweat (pun intended). Drier than that, and people actually get uncomfortable staying in there.

5. Name your suppression system and I can spec it for you. Wet pipe? Standing wet pipe? Dry? Halon? ESFR? NFPA 13 compliant? What's your hazard level? Localized zones, or full footprint coverage? Got enough water pressure? If not, how big a pump you want me to stick in there?

6. Psyche exams before hand, you can do some pre-conditioning to get over it. Back in ye olden days, bomber crews in WWII were subjected to extended training in confined spaces to get them over any issues they had with it. If you wigged out in training, you got scrubbed.

7. Vitamin D supplements with meals for health concerns.

8. People have spent extended periods in the Artic and Antartica without an effective day/night cycle for a good chunk of a year with no detrimental effect. Last I checked, guys who serve on submarines do fairly well too, even though they go for extended periods with no day/night cycle.

tofu
2005-Feb-02, 09:16 PM
http://seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/drstrangelove.jpg

I vould also like do say dat a qvick survey of suitable mines vould have to be undertaken, and persons vould have to be selected from ze general population. I vould tink a ratio of perhaps, 10 healsy females to each male vould be appropriate. Naturally, each male vould have to do prodigous duty in servicing zeese females, but dat should not be a problem, as zere vould be little else to do in ze mines but mate.

tjm220
2005-Feb-02, 09:21 PM
I vould also like do say dat a qvick survey of suitable mines vould have to be undertaken, and persons vould have to be selected from ze general population. I vould tink a ratio of perhaps, 10 healsy females to each male vould be appropriate. Naturally, each male vould have to do prodigous duty in servicing zeese females, but dat should not be a problem, as zere vould be little else to do in ze mines but mate.

=D>

Russ
2005-Feb-02, 09:40 PM
8. Last I checked, guys who serve on submarines do fairly well too, even though they go for extended periods with no day/night cycle.

I'll take issue with you on this one. I have known 8 guys who were crew on the dunk boats and they were all flakier than a bowl of Wheaties. They clearly spent too much time in a steel tube under water. :) :D :lol: :roll:

JHotz
2005-Feb-02, 09:44 PM
LOL at Yorkshireman


Sunroofs. Solid, acrylic cylinders could draw light into the facility
you might also be able to use fiberoptics. That might be cheaper. Certainly, it would allow you to spread the collectors over a large area so that they'd be hard to notice, if that is a concern. Also, each collector could have a small cover so that you could turn the lights out during a nuclear attack, again if that's a concern. Also, you could run fiber optics into a lot of the rooms, not just the green houses, and lower your energy costs. It might also be neat to put the collectors on the south side of a moutain so that they could "see" farther over the horizon and give light for longer periods of time.

Fiber optics are very cool.

I have seen concrete with fiber optics that actually shows silhouettes. With a bit of tinkering maybe it could show a high resolution image. The have been run through over a hundred feet of concrete. I like the idea of running them through a mountain.

JHotz
2005-Feb-02, 09:50 PM
http://seaofcrisis.com/ext/babb/drstrangelove.jpg

I vould also like do say dat a qvick survey of suitable mines vould have to be undertaken, and persons vould have to be selected from ze general population. I vould tink a ratio of perhaps, 10 healsy females to each male vould be appropriate. Naturally, each male vould have to do prodigous duty in servicing zeese females, but dat should not be a problem, as zere vould be little else to do in ze mines but mate.

I think you are right on. The number one way to fight depression is social interaction with the opposite sex. Lots of hot women.

Van Rijn
2005-Feb-02, 11:22 PM
Problem with going underground


I task respondents to explain any corresponding problem with extraterrestrial habitation, how to address the problem or explain advantage.

If you have any ideas on how to make it an environment people want to live in please elaborate.
Thank You

Problem: Digging/Mining the tunnels. That is generally very hardware and time intensive. Admittedly, there are special cases - favorable geology, if you are already mining for resources, that sort of thing. But why are you going underground in the first place? What planets or moons are you thinking of? For the moon, it is probably much easier to build a surface structure, then cover it with soft regolith for radiation protection. Taking advantage of local features can help reduce exposure as well: Build near/at the side of a hill, or in a small crater.

JHotz
2005-Feb-03, 04:17 AM
Problem with going underground


I task respondents to explain any corresponding problem with extraterrestrial habitation, how to address the problem or explain advantage.

If you have any ideas on how to make it an environment people want to live in please elaborate.
Thank You

Problem: Digging/Mining the tunnels. That is generally very hardware and time intensive. Admittedly, there are special cases - favorable geology, if you are already mining for resources, that sort of thing. But why are you going underground in the first place? What planets or moons are you thinking of? For the moon, it is probably much easier to build a surface structure, then cover it with soft regolith for radiation protection. Taking advantage of local features can help reduce exposure as well: Build near/at the side of a hill, or in a small crater.

Thank you for responding to my post.

I appreciate you points.

How about pueblo Indian style cliff dwellings?

A benefit of digging may be that you do not have to work in the harsh vacuum and radiation during the construction of the habitat.

man on the moon
2005-Feb-03, 05:34 AM
One problem you will quickly run into underground is waste disposal, you don't want to leave it underground! It's both courteous and reasonable to dispose of it yourself.

As for day/night cycle, don't worry about it too much. What little research has been done in this area suggests humans adopt a circadian rhythm of 20-28 hours depending on the person. That is even without outside cues, or watches or anything. It may not necessarily math perfectly with an atomic clock after a month, but you won't be up 20 hours sleeping 2 or anything like that either. From what I gather, time is split almost equally between the two.

Ventilation in some cases is easy as long as you aren't too deep, you need two entrances or more, and be somewhere between them (they shouldn't be next to each other). Temperature differences or pressure changes outside will cause the cave to exhale/inhale. If you can arrange it correctly, this can potentially move at least some air through the entire cave's main passage. Often I have gone and even deep in the main passage (again, between two entrances) you can feel a breeze flowing. I can't be sure and don't know where to find it, but it seems it would help to have one entrance on the sunny side of a hill and the other on the shadow side.

Multiple entrances also help with the cave in problem, assuming you aren't under the cave in.

JHotz
2005-Feb-03, 07:19 AM
One problem you will quickly run into underground is waste disposal, you don't want to leave it underground! It's both courteous and reasonable to dispose of it yourself.

As for day/night cycle, don't worry about it too much. What little research has been done in this area suggests humans adopt a circadian rhythm of 20-28 hours depending on the person. That is even without outside cues, or watches or anything. It may not necessarily math perfectly with an atomic clock after a month, but you won't be up 20 hours sleeping 2 or anything like that either. From what I gather, time is split almost equally between the two.

Ventilation in some cases is easy as long as you aren't too deep, you need two entrances or more, and be somewhere between them (they shouldn't be next to each other). Temperature differences or pressure changes outside will cause the cave to exhale/inhale. If you can arrange it correctly, this can potentially move at least some air through the entire cave's main passage. Often I have gone and even deep in the main passage (again, between two entrances) you can feel a breeze flowing. I can't be sure and don't know where to find it, but it seems it would help to have one entrance on the sunny side of a hill and the other on the shadow side.

Multiple entrances also help with the cave in problem, assuming you aren't under the cave in.

Thank you for responding to my post.

Waste will have to be treated and recycled. This may be accomplished by a combination of solar cooking and bacterial treatment. Then the result is used as nutrients for plants.

The rhythm issue is not just day and night but seasonal as well. Intense light therapy may be necessary to avoid depression.

You ventilation information is interesting to me. Perhaps some kind of chimney effect can replace blowers as a more reliable means of circulation.

skrap1r0n
2005-Feb-03, 03:45 PM
Solar baking of waste products?

On one hand, I can see how that would be fantastic. Not to divert the point, but wasn't it Ben Bova that suggested that the best way to do laundry on the moon would be to just hang them outside and let the sun "wash" the clothes?

Anyway, back to solar baking of the waste products. My question is this. How much of a waste product is useful and how would the sun effect it. What I am getting at is that there are bacteria in waste products that could be recycled. Additionally, bacteria in urine produce ammonia. Would it be wise to just eliminate these organisms or would it be better to extract some usefullness before baking it?

JHotz
2005-Feb-04, 04:20 AM
Solar baking of waste products?

On one hand, I can see how that would be fantastic. Not to divert the point, but wasn't it Ben Bova that suggested that the best way to do laundry on the moon would be to just hang them outside and let the sun "wash" the clothes?

Anyway, back to solar baking of the waste products. My question is this. How much of a waste product is useful and how would the sun effect it. What I am getting at is that there are bacteria in waste products that could be recycled. Additionally, bacteria in urine produce ammonia. Would it be wise to just eliminate these organisms or would it be better to extract some usefullness before baking it?

When I was reading about off the grid housing, I read about treating was with solar cookers. I do not know the chemistry of what happens. I appreciate you insights.

man on the moon
2005-Feb-04, 10:33 PM
While I can appreciate the idea of solar baking for a "green" house, I have to wonder how you intend to "solar" bake (last time i checked that meant the sun) under ground...:s

I suppose the fiber optics may do the trick, or lamps of wide spectrum. Those may help with depression too, as that could be serious as someone mentioned. Good thought on that!

*Runs off to think of how to get the sun underground

*Comes back with Monty Python and the Holy Grail. If you've seen it you'll get it. :D