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dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 06:42 PM
I started thinking about this after the Patriots won the Superbowl Sunday night. There seems to be a fair amount of Patriots hatred out there - just because they've won it 3 times in 4 years. I heard some people say things such as "Well, I don't really like either team, but I hope the Eagles win because I'm sick of the Patriots winning."

Same thing with the Yankees in baseball - a lot of Yankee haters just because they've been successful.

The "Rich". You hear a lot of criticism of wealthy people - because they are wealthy. Is there anybody who wouldn't like monetary security? Why hate the rich? Most want to be it.

The school I teach at has a girl heading to a Division I college to play Basketball next year. This entire season she's getting physically beaten up by the opponents - and the referee's won't call the fouls. She's the most humble talented athlete I've ever seen so its not because of her attitude. She finally asked a ref one game and he said to her "Well, you don't need the calls."

Just this week a group of students in my school went to the National Honor Society and requested that those students not sit at the front during graduation as is traditionally done.

All these examples boil down to one thing - ENVY. Success requires hard work. It ticks me off that in so many venues, people respond to the success of others with envy rather than with inspiriation.

People shouldn't be hating the successful teams - they should be hoping their team someday plays at that level. If you want to play Div. I B-ball - become a gym rat. If you want to sit at the front of the graduates, then work your tail off to get top grades. If you want to be rich, then it will take work.

A person/organization achieves success by hard work and reaching upward, not by bringing the more successful people/groups down to their level. Seeing success should motivate someone to strive for their own success.

When I was in college as a freshman, I found out the Summa's at graduation got to wear a gold robe while everyone else wears black - and that there were not that many Summa's. At that point I decided I was going to be wearing a gold robe when I graduated. It wasn't the only reason I worked hard in college, but it was an additional motivation. Why would we reward mediocrity?

Doodler
2005-Feb-10, 06:54 PM
Its rewarded for the same reason backwards thinking policies like "No Child Left Behind" gain a foothold and move forward. Some people cannot stand the idea that not everyone is equal in all things, so they cater to the minimum and curse those who are more gifted.

There's been a real unfortunate blurring of the lines between what constitutes a 'reward' and an 'entitlement'. A decent education is a reward for busting your backside to get it, not an entitlement that you deserve just for wasting my air 9 months after your parents couldn't control their hormones.

For the student who's being unfairly abused in basketball, I think the best thing she can do is to simply wait till it happens again, then walk off the court. If anyone says anything, she can look back at them dead in the eye and tell them, "I'll be back when you deserve to be on the same court as I do."

There is no bigger (wo)man, just the better ones. When they play cheap, treat'em cheap.

Thumper
2005-Feb-10, 07:02 PM
I don't know if it is strictly an American thing. But we tend to root hard for the underdog. Think the US hockey team in the '80 Olympics against the Soviet machine. Eddie the Eagle ski jumper. The Jamacian bobsled team. Unfortunately, if the underdog we root for finally becomes a champion on top, we can't wait to see them fall or succomb to scandal.

The Patriots sucked for years, now they're finally enjoying some success so we hate them. The same sort of happened to the Bills when they went to 4 straight Super Bowls. How about the US Men's Olympic Basketball team. Many Americans actually found enjoyment out of them being beaten. We just seem to do that.

Kristophe
2005-Feb-10, 07:13 PM
I'm not going to comment on the Patriots, since I've always hated them. And the Red Sox, the Bruins, and the Celtics, too.

The failure of the US men's basketball team was looked at fondly by many not so much because they were expected to win, but moreso because they expected to win, and so had a reputation for not trying very hard. It was a joke to them, and a number of players invited to the team chose not to represent their country. NBA stars are seen as having a HUGE chip on their collective shoulder, so to see them go down was fun. Raw tallent and a bad attitude falls to grit and determination. It's a fun story.

The girl being abused on the basketball court is just wrong, and displays a huge corruption of the officials. Someone should start filing complaints on behalf of the player and the team. The constant fouling may be partly due to envy, but at the same time coaches target the best players on a team in hopes of throwing them, or the whole team off. It's a bit of a dirty tactic, but it's a commonly used one.

The general attitude of the poor hating the rich comes from the notion that the rich got all of the breaks, and have coasted to their position in life, while the poor worker has to struggle to stay alive. It's not always valid, but it's a notion that's been engrained into society over hundreds of years. I know a very wealthy person, and she's hard working, level headed, kind and generous. She's very hard to hate, but people do it. Society is spiteful.

People are lazy. People like rewards. People want to be rewarded for being lazy. When they're not, they don't want to blame themselves. It's always easier to blame someone or something else.

ToSeek
2005-Feb-10, 07:44 PM
I started thinking about this after the Patriots won the Superbowl Sunday night. There seems to be a fair amount of Patriots hatred out there - just because they've won it 3 times in 4 years. I heard some people say things such as "Well, I don't really like either team, but I hope the Eagles win because I'm sick of the Patriots winning."

Same thing with the Yankees in baseball - a lot of Yankee haters just because they've been successful.

Not just because they're successful, but because they do it by outspending everyone else for the top players rather than trying to construct a team.

And I don't see that wanting someone besides the Patriots to win makes you a "hater." I was rooting for the Eagles, but I have a lot of respect for New England because they seem like a real team - something you don't often see in US professional sports any more.

jfribrg
2005-Feb-10, 07:45 PM
I admit that I would have rejoiced if those Patriots had lost (but then again, I can see the Philadelphia skyline from my house :lol: ).

Seriously, I agree with much of what had been said. Some of it is envy, but I don't think its that simple. There are many reasons. Sometimes its a reaction to the way the athlete/team is treated in the press. I'm sure that many people wanted the Eagles to lose because of the way that some of the players mouth off etc). I admit to getting some enjoyment out of watching Tiger Woods lose a tournament. He is a real class act and I admire him greatly, but don't like the way he is treated as a semi-god by the newspapers and TV. I also enjoy it because it is nice to see other talented golfers play well. In general I root against the media favorite. One exception to this is Lance Armstrong. I know it would be good for the sport if he loses the Tour-de-Lance, but I can't bring myself to root against him. This is partly because he has been frequently treated by the press (particularly the European press) as guilty of using performance enhancing drugs despite passing dozens of drug tests every year.

As far as the basketball ref is concerned, the comment is worth filing a complaint. It's one thing to complain about not getting the calls, but when the officials admit that they are not giving the calls, that should be brought to the attention of the league.

I recall an opposite situation. In a middle school girl's championship game, there was one girl who was extremely tall, and the star of the team, but probably the laziest member of the team. The rest of the team would run down the court, then wait for her to slowly jog down to join them, take the ball inside and (usually) score. The team lost, and during the award ceremony, a small trophy was presented to each member of the losing team. Each girl's name was announced, she received her 2nd place trophy, and stood on a platform. When it came time for the tall lazy girl to get her trophy, the league president spent a couple of minutes telling everyone about how great a star she is ,blah,blah,etc. Never mind that her team would have probably have won if she had put out some more effort. No such praise to any of the girls on the winning team. I was disappointed and wonder how she would react in high school or college when eventually you need to do more than be tall in order to even make the team.

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 08:02 PM
I don't know if it is strictly an American thing. But we tend to root hard for the underdog. Think the US hockey team in the '80 Olympics against the Soviet machine. Eddie the Eagle ski jumper. The Jamacian bobsled team. Unfortunately, if the underdog we root for finally becomes a champion on top, we can't wait to see them fall or succomb to scandal.

We certainly do that, but the motivation in rooting for an underdog is very different from hating a successful team or successful anybody - just because of repeated success. If the underdog doesn't win, its reasonable to experience a bit of disappointment, but then get over it. But this hatred out of envy for success is counter-productive.


How about the US Men's Olympic Basketball team. Many Americans actually found enjoyment out of them being beaten. We just seem to do that.

In the case of the Olympic team, I think a lot of that sentiment also comes from the lack of classy leaders representing the NBA right now. There are no Larry Bird's, Maurice Cheeks, Dr. J, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson types. I personally think someone like Carmello Anthony could become one of those leaders, but he's just starting his career. Jordan's retirement seems to have left a vacuum.

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 08:07 PM
I'm not going to comment on the Patriots, since I've always hated them. And the Red Sox, the Bruins, and the Celtics, too.

Well that's a different story. I'm not talking about hating a team because of it being from a rival city of your own team or other motivations. I'm just talking about simple hating a team because they keep winning.


The girl being abused on the basketball court is just wrong, and displays a huge corruption of the officials. Someone should start filing complaints on behalf of the player and the team. The constant fouling may be partly due to envy, but at the same time coaches target the best players on a team in hopes of throwing them, or the whole team off. It's a bit of a dirty tactic, but it's a commonly used one.

No doubt they're trying to rattle her - and its not working. She's averaging ~ 20 points, 10 assists, and 10 rebounds a game as a point guard. But for the officials to let blatant fouls go just because she's the best player in the area is corruption as you say.


The general attitude of the poor hating the rich comes from the notion that the rich got all of the breaks, and have coasted to their position in life, while the poor worker has to struggle to stay alive.

You're right - and what this attitude seems not to understand is that successful people in business create jobs for more workers as their business grows.


People are lazy. People like rewards. People want to be rewarded for being lazy. When they're not, they don't want to blame themselves. It's always easier to blame someone or something else.

Very true - and unfortunately very counter-productive.

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 08:15 PM
I started thinking about this after the Patriots won the Superbowl Sunday night. There seems to be a fair amount of Patriots hatred out there - just because they've won it 3 times in 4 years. I heard some people say things such as "Well, I don't really like either team, but I hope the Eagles win because I'm sick of the Patriots winning."

Same thing with the Yankees in baseball - a lot of Yankee haters just because they've been successful.

Not just because they're successful, but because they do it by outspending everyone else for the top players rather than trying to construct a team.

That's the business. Every year you hear some of these new players the Yankees have "bought" saying how different the locker room is. Winning is an expectation. People may hate the fact that they outspend other teams, but how else do you construct a team? I've seen AA ball. Most of those players don't make the big leagues.

Same thing with Football - Free Agency has players shuffling all over the place. Teams can re-build in rapid fashion.



And I don't see that wanting someone besides the Patriots to win makes you a "hater." I was rooting for the Eagles, but I have a lot of respect for New England because they seem like a real team - something you don't often see in US professional sports any more.

Then you don't fall under the category I'm talking about. At the end of the day - if you wanted to see a different winner - and you walk away disappointed but not hating the Patriots because they won, then that's not a big deal.

But there is a lot of hatred of success out there. Perhaps the hatred is more about a perception that the success is unfair. That is the problem. Unless there is cheating, success is fair. The Patriots haven't cheated their way to superbowls. Most Rich people have not cheated their way there. Successful students in school work hard to get those grades.

This is the real world. If you want to be successful at something, you must work for it.

Wally
2005-Feb-10, 08:21 PM
This whole trend is very disturbing. . . right down to the practice of not scoring youth baseball and the like, just so the losing team isn't tramatized. And how does this prepare them for real life??? :roll:

As for the NBA. . . I can't tell you how many of my friends feel the same way I do. The entire league (with very few exceptions) is filled with spoiled, whiny "all-about-me" idiots who have been brought up to think nothing matters except for the ground they walk on. I really miss the days of Jordon/Pippen, et al when the super stars brought the rest of their team up to their level rather than pushing them aside so they could bask in the limelight of what will eventually turn out to be their own failure. :-?

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 08:27 PM
This whole trend is very disturbing. . . right down to the practice of not scoring youth baseball and the like, just so the losing team isn't tramatized. And how does this prepare them for real life??? :roll:

Yes ... the "everybody wins" mentality. I can understand it for the very young ones - K-3 grades, but after that they should learn about competition.

Kristophe
2005-Feb-10, 08:30 PM
This whole trend is very disturbing. . . right down to the practice of not scoring youth baseball and the like, just so the losing team isn't tramatized. And how does this prepare them for real life??? :roll:

As for the NBA. . . I can't tell you how many of my friends feel the same way I do. The entire league (with very few exceptions) is filled with spoiled, whiny "all-about-me" idiots who have been brought up to think nothing matters except for the ground they walk on. I really miss the days of Jordon/Pippen, et al when the super stars brought the rest of their team up to their level rather than pushing them aside so they could bask in the limelight of what will eventually turn out to be their own failure. :-?

My roommates, who watch basketball, like to point to Vince Carter here. He spent more time on the disabled list in Toronto than on the court. He toured with Nelly instead of being there with his team. Then, when they finally traded him, he came out and said he wasn't trying in Toronto.

Swift
2005-Feb-10, 08:33 PM
This whole trend is very disturbing. . . right down to the practice of not scoring youth baseball and the like, just so the losing team isn't tramatized. And how does this prepare them for real life??? :roll:

Maybe pretty well. I know there are people where I work who think they get paid for showing up at work, like their paycheck was a right. I don't think it is all that unusual.

I agree with dgruss23's point, but I think the Yankees and the Pats are different stories. As others have pointed out, people (including myself) hate the Yankees because they try to buy a winning team and money is no object and because they are not so much a team, as a collection of self-centered superstars.

I don't recall hearing anyone say they hate the Pats. In fact, they kind of did it the opposite of the Yankees, by a team effort and good coaching, without the superstars. More power to them.

Andromeda321
2005-Feb-10, 09:08 PM
People who root against the winners fall into two categories in my mind. The first is out in some sort of spirit of pity and support for those who go up against the great because we've all had moments where we were fighting to get to the top.
Then there's another category, the category where the bitter and the jealous people are. A prime example of this in my mind relates to grades and academic performance in my mind: a topic which I blabbered on about recently in FWIS so I'll spare everyone here of that long-winded disertation again. Basically there are a lot of people at my university jealous of the "4.0 crowd" as I call them by distastefully saying stuff like "I could get straight As if I wanted to but I don't" and something about the person just jumping through arbitrary hoops the professor puts out. Sorry buddy but if you get a C in calculus there's only so much "the prof just doesn't like me" you can put into it. :roll:
See I might not be the best student but I admit it's because I slack off, whereas many others I know will rather die than admit it and stare in amazement when the bad grades roll in (then demand respect for the minimal amounts they study). Gar. :roll:

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 09:26 PM
I agree with dgruss23's point, but I think the Yankees and the Pats are different stories. As others have pointed out, people (including myself) hate the Yankees because they try to buy a winning team and money is no object and because they are not so much a team, as a collection of self-centered superstars.

You're right that the Pats and Yankees have done it in different ways.

In fact, you could argue that some of the NFL teams try to buy success with "superstars" as the Yankees have done. Look at the Redskins! Every year they go out and bring in big name players - and every year they flop. Certainly the remarkable thing about the Pats is the way they are able to bring in players when key players get injured and keep on rolling. That's coaching.

I guess I don't understand why there is so much animosity toward the Yankees paying for the best players. The players are expected to come on in and win games - and that's what they do. I don't think you can build a championship baseball team without bringing in some of the best pitchers, hitters, and fielders.

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but it seems that in baseball winning depends much more on individual performance relative to total team play than in any other sport.

Think about the importance of the Pitchers. Why is it on the same team one pitcher has a 20-5 record while another pitcher is 11-11? Is the fielding always worse when the latter pitcher is pitching? Do the other guys on the team suddenly forget how to bat when the latter pitcher is pitching?

Of course not - the W/L of a game hinges on the individual performance of a pitcher - or several key batters. The Yankees recognize this - and have the money to pay for players that will give good individual performances.

I guess if the money issue is unfair, then its a problem with the way baseball is structured. That's not the fault of the Yankees. Why don't the other franchises make a stand to restructure funding so that all teams can bid on the best players?

Kristophe
2005-Feb-10, 10:13 PM
See I might not be the best student but I admit it's because I slack off, whereas many others I know will rather die than admit it and stare in amazement when the bad grades roll in (then demand respect for the minimal amounts they study). Gar. :roll:

Hehehe. Yeah... My marks were awful last semester, and they dropped rapidly the second half of last year. I had a lot on my plate, but at least I can admit that the blame is on my shoulders. I get a kick out of the "I could if I wanna, but don't" crowd myself. If that's the case, then why mention it at all?


Ok, the baseball issue. The problem with the Yankees is not so much that they can buy such good players, but rather how they're able to do it. The Yankees are the richest team in baseball because they can charge so much for broadcast rights, and have such a wide range of merch. People who don't even like baseball can be seen wearing Yankees appearal because it's chic. Also, those of us who hate the Yankees but are big baseball fans usually do so more for Steinbrenner's sake than for the wealth of the team.

In all honesty, I don't have an issue with the Yankees, or their success. They tend to grossly overpay their players, and so really push sallery inflation in MLB, making most of the top players unaffordable to the majority of teams, but that's a business practice and not a sporting practice. The team I have real issues with is the Marlins. THEY are the perfect example of a team buying a championship. They've done it twice, and then immediately dismantled. That's earned my contempt.

Glom
2005-Feb-10, 10:18 PM
Wait a minute, this isn't about global warming? :-?

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 10:28 PM
You Yankee haters should love the ads for Yankees tickets at the bottom of the thread! :lol:

dgruss23
2005-Feb-10, 10:30 PM
Wait a minute, this isn't about global warming? :-?

No - there would have to be some genuine successful global warming predictions for it to relevant to this thread. :wink:

Gillianren
2005-Feb-10, 10:31 PM
I don't care about any sports team, except to be annoyed that teachers are underpaid while these people get paid fortunes for playing a game. but that's me.

I do know about the grades thing, though. as it happens, I actually could've gotten A's in a lot of classes where I didn't because I didn't do the work. but I know that, so I never complained about it--or about the people who got better grades than I. if they were willing to do the work, more power to 'em.

but when I got answers right in class, I became an object of hatred to a lot of people. when I did bother to get good grades, I became a "teacher's pet." heck, even in classes where I didn't but clearly could. (English, history, etc. no, I couldn't have gotten A's in calculus. I could have failed, had I ever taken it.) it happens a lot, not just to me.

why does this happen? I go w/the envy theory. not that I think anyone particularly wanted to be me, of course--heck, some days not even I want to be me--but they wanted the praise for getting things right. they wanted the bragging rights of being on the honour roll. they wanted their picture in the paper (Odyssey of the Mind state champions). whatever. and since they didn't get that, they felt the need to carp on the people who did.

George
2005-Feb-10, 10:32 PM
I started thinking about this after the Patriots won the Superbowl Sunday night. There seems to be a fair amount of Patriots hatred out there - just because they've won it 3 times in 4 years. I heard some people say things such as "Well, I don't really like either team, but I hope the Eagles win because I'm sick of the Patriots winning."

Same thing with the Yankees in baseball - a lot of Yankee haters just because they've been successful.

I now cheer for the team that is the least sassy. When I saw an Eagles player mouth off significantly to the Patriot quarterback, I pulled for the Patriots.

As we know, professional sports players use to set, and were required to set, postive examples of good conduct and sportsmanship (rugby not withstanding).

My son and I watched the Alamodome Army High School stars game from a goal line seating viewpoint. I will never forget watching the 68 yard reception by Jackson as he easily headed for the touchdown. At the goal line, he elected to display a flip into the end zone. Much to all of our amusement, he was a millisecond too soon because he placed the football about 1 or 2 feet before the goal line. He completed his flip and got up dancing and prancing only to be stunned to learn he blew it.

Did the coaches pull him? Nope. He later messed-up a punt return and turned the ball over. He certainly had talent and later was given the MVP award, although there were many "boos".

Winning is not everything. Lombardi likely assumed integrity was a given.


The school I teach at has a girl heading to a Division I college to play Basketball next year. This entire season she's getting physically beaten up by the opponents - and the referee's won't call the fouls. She's the most humble talented athlete I've ever seen so its not because of her attitude. She finally asked a ref one game and he said to her "Well, you don't need the calls."
I first took this the way you did. However, some refs. might feel they are doing her a favor in preparation for what's ahead. It's hard to say but your point is certainly valid in general.

The big deal this week is wether the Spurs will bring in Carl Malone. Most still remember his knock-out blow to David Robinson. I've been proud of our team for character and charity work. They seem to have a "moon-free" environment. Winning isn't everything.

My favorite proverb is...."Before honor comes humility".

No doubt, tremendous fame and success can take a terrible toll on those not seasoned. Often the "little people" are forgoten as they climb up the proverbial ladder. [I will certainly not forget everyone on this board once I discover the Sun's true color and am surrounded in glory :roll: ]

Cougar
2005-Feb-10, 11:02 PM
...Success requires hard work. It ticks me off that in so many venues, people respond to the success of others with envy rather than with inspiriation.
Yes, the big bang theory, the Hubble relation.... very successful theories... well accepted by the scientific community. Yet so many people seem so determined to see them fall. How misguided! :lol:

dgruss23
2005-Feb-11, 01:35 PM
...Success requires hard work. It ticks me off that in so many venues, people respond to the success of others with envy rather than with inspiriation.
Yes, the big bang theory, the Hubble relation.... very successful theories... well accepted by the scientific community. Yet so many people seem so determined to see them fall. How misguided! :lol:

On the humor side of this - good effort. I'll give you that. Thanks! :)

Taking it seriously:


Yes, the big bang theory, the Hubble relation.... very successful theories...

The Hubble relation is not a theory - nor is it "very" successful - until you account for intrinsic redshifts. But that's a topic for another thread.


well accepted by the scientific community.

So wasn't a decelerating universe ... things change.


Yet so many people seem so determined to see them fall.

Sure there are. And there are people equally determined to keep them propped up regardless of any contradictory evidence.


How misguided!

What is misguided is to think that it is foolishness to test theories and present alternative evidence.

And what does anything you said have to do with envy?

Makgraf
2005-Feb-12, 09:33 PM
I don't care about any sports team, except to be annoyed that teachers are underpaid while these people get paid fortunes for playing a game. but that's me.
Supply and demand :). The market is willing to pay teachers a certain price and entertainers (a catagory which I include athletes in) another price. Heck, in general public teacher's get paid more than 'should' (based on smaller salaries for teacher's in the private sector). But is it moral for athletes and actors to get paid millions of dollars a year? I'd say, yes. Entertainment generates billions of dollars. So shouldn't the people who actually generate that money by their own talents get to keep a nice chunk of it rather than some suit at the corporate head office?

I don't buy the arguement that higher salaries for the players cause higher ticket prices. NHL players don't get paid as much as baseball players but their ticket prices are just as high (or would if they were playing this year :x)

AGN Fuel
2005-Feb-12, 10:54 PM
But is it moral for athletes and actors to get paid millions of dollars a year? I'd say, yes.

Is it moral for research scientists who through a lifetime of work may uncover the secrets to the formation of the universe, or cure cancer, or work out how to feed a burgeoning global population have to beg cap in hand for funding, while someone is paid millions of dollars for their ability to play a game well?

Is it moral to teachers, who are entrusted with the task of preparing a generation of children for life, to be paid an annual salary that equates to 1 days-income for these sportspeople?

People (wrongly imho) equate money with success. We have a particular sports star here in Australia who earns millions of dollars a year. He has the IQ of a Chesterfield Sofa. Do you think a student, weighing up their life options while in High School, is going to work their guts out academically for the chance to become a scientist on a poverty level income? Why should they, when they can see that true 'success' can be obtained simply by being able to bowl a cricket ball, or throw a ball into a hoop, or hit a tennis ball inside some white lines or biff someone harder than they biff you - and all without having ever once to read a book?

We need to re-assess what we consider as a role model in our society. The patients are in charge of the asylum.

Makgraf
2005-Feb-13, 02:55 AM
But is it moral for athletes and actors to get paid millions of dollars a year? I'd say, yes.

Is it moral for research scientists who through a lifetime of work may uncover the secrets to the formation of the universe, or cure cancer, or work out how to feed a burgeoning global population have to beg cap in hand for funding, while someone is paid millions of dollars for their ability to play a game well?

Is it moral to teachers, who are entrusted with the task of preparing a generation of children for life, to be paid an annual salary that equates to 1 days-income for these sportspeople?

People (wrongly imho) equate money with success. We have a particular sports star here in Australia who earns millions of dollars a year. He has the IQ of a Chesterfield Sofa. Do you think a student, weighing up their life options while in High School, is going to work their guts out academically for the chance to become a scientist on a poverty level income? Why should they, when they can see that true 'success' can be obtained simply by being able to bowl a cricket ball, or throw a ball into a hoop, or hit a tennis ball inside some white lines or biff someone harder than they biff you - and all without having ever once to read a book?

We need to re-assess what we consider as a role model in our society. The patients are in charge of the asylum.
[/quote]
What I was talking about here was the morality of someone making millions of dollars for playing a game, not the morality of paying one profession over another. I think that teachers and research scientists do great work. But that doesn't mean that they'd get paid more if for some reason athletes made less. My point about the athletes is that as a society we like to watch sports. We pay money to watch the game and advertisers pay money to get their products placed while we're watching it. This generates billions of dollars. Now this money is going to go to the athletes, people who in some cases are literally putting their life on the line, or for corporate profits. Which do you think is more "moral"?

Not everyone can be an athlete. Only a small percent of the population has that ability and only a percent of those have the dedication to stick with it. It requires a lot of hard work and training. Plus there are immense health costs to many athletes: brain injuries for hockey players, brain injuries for boxers, STDs from groupies for basketball players. There's no reason why a kid should have to chose between academics and athletics necessarily. Look at former US Supreme Court Justice Byron White. He was an accomplished scholar and civil servant and a member of the football hall of fame.

Again, I know teachers and researchers don't get paid much relative to athletes but I don't think their plight is as bad as you make it out to be. Are teacher's really making less than 1/365th the wage of athletes. Well yeah if the athlete is Alex Rodriguez. But if he's the standard there are lawyers who aren't making as much in a day as he is. I have no idea what the aggregate average athletic salery is vs that of teachers, but to use an example from where I come from teachers are making about $70 grand and let's say hockey players are making about $2 million on average (the things you learn while the only hockey news that comes out is details of the negotiations between the striking players and the owners). So that's athletes making about 30 times more. And are research scientists really living on a "poverty level income"? All the research scientists I know are living quite well (though not as much, obviously, as athletes)

Athletes do bring a valuable service to society, they entertain. But even if you don't think it's valuable, there are people who are willing to pay money to see athletics and they should be able to do so. I've used "athlete" here as short for "pro-athlete". Most athletes make very little money, if any. To tie it all together the captain of Toronto Rock (our lacrosse team) also has a job as a high school teacher to make ends meet.

Gillianren
2005-Feb-13, 09:24 PM
. . .where I come from teachers are making about $70 grand . . . .

wow. that's a lot more than teachers in the US make.

look, w/out teachers, you don't have doctors or lawyers. you don't, in general, even have plumbers. or auto mechanics. or engineers. or astronomers. teachers are responsible for training people in every profession.

one of my good friends also happened to have been my California History teacher back in high school. she and her husband are both teachers. she teaches summer school--I don't think he does, but he's an elementary school teacher, so I'd imagine there are fewer opportunities to teach summer school. they have two kids. they can barely make ends meet. she works probably sixty hours a week, and since she's on salary, she of course does not get paid overtime.

when I was one of her students, she was also our Odyssey of the Mind coach. we went to world finals, and even though the rules expressly forbid her to help us much, she still had to put in five extra hours a week, on average, to--for example--make sure we could use the classrooms at school for practice or set building. she missed her son's belt match in karate because it was the same weekend as our state finals competition.

are all teachers as dedicated as Mrs. Nicholson. oh, heavens, no. but we want them to be, not realizing how much effort it is for how little money. besides, would you want to put up w/a classroom full of thirty-plus teenagers every day?

Ari Jokimaki
2005-Feb-14, 07:07 AM
I don't know if it is strictly an American thing.

It's not. I follow some Finnish sports discussion forums, and there seems to be a group of people who celebrate when any succesful athlete/team fails. They also hope beforehand that succesful athletes fail, downplay their succesful efforts and ridicule them.

Brady Yoon
2005-Feb-14, 06:22 PM
It's ironic how competition is stressed in capitalist societies but then everyone is dragged down to insure equality and no hurt feelings.

That being said, I think no matter how hard someone tries, they are not going to get something they want. For example, a person with an IQ of 150 would find it easy to graduate college with high honors, even if they didn't try at all. On the other hand, someone with average intelligence would find it difficult to even get into college in some circumstances.

I think the problem is that as a child, we are taught that everyone is the same and that there is no winner or loser. When kids start to get into high school, they notice that they have been lied to. They try to do well in their studies, but they always notice that certain people are always ahead of them. I think this is what causes the resentment. Lazy people who don't try much but still are at top of the class. I think this it the problem: We mix up competition and cooperation and send the wrong messages as kids. Most people get the feeling that "Life is unfair." It's only the truly great who can overcome this feeling and succeed, in my opinion.

I don't blame the people who blame others, sometimes. I can get a feeling of how hard it is for some people. Lots of people give me a hard time about this too, but I am humble when it comes to school. I don't really talk about my grades at all, I steer clear from the subject. :(