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David Mc
2005-Feb-14, 03:23 PM
Is there anywhere on the Net where God and Science can be discussed logically without all of the normal, clashing passion?

As a Christian, I believe that God and energy are pretty much the same thing and that intelligence isn't limited to the confines of a bio-mass.

Trying to discuss the possibility of finding a "talking" rock as a life form just won't fit the BA's forum. Yet searching for it is impossible without the brilliance of science.

Try talking with anyone willing to accept the concept that thoughts and memory are energetic forms that can exist outside of a biological host in a cohesive form and soon you're being advised to hum into a crystal to find your answers. *sigh*

So, I'm aching for a board where physical and spiritual sciences co-exist.

Any suggestions? Thanks.

N C More
2005-Feb-14, 03:37 PM
Here you go. (http://discussions.godandscience.org/) Can't say as I agree with the concept but these people appear to be discussing it.

David Mc
2005-Feb-14, 03:40 PM
Here you go. (http://discussions.godandscience.org/) Can't say as I agree with the concept but these people appear to be discussing it.

... and that's just what's so frustrating. You're exactly the kind of person I would want to discuss it with. I'll check the link. Thank you.l

Cougar
2005-Feb-14, 03:58 PM
...I believe that.... intelligence isn't limited to the confines of a bio-mass.
How do you propose this could occur? Currently, the only intelligence we have evidence for involves neurons and other cellular material. Well, if you want to extend the definitions a bit, we could include Artificial Life or A-Life, that is, smart software in silicon with electromagnetic messaging.

Of course, defining "intelligence" has always been a problem. You'll have to start off with a clear definition and then explain how your assertion works. And of course your conclusions will have to jive with what we observe. Care to get into a little more detail?

David Mc
2005-Feb-14, 04:37 PM
The proposal is that it's possible for the charged particles that comprise a memory to maintain their structure and that the mind, as well, can maintain it's structure outside of the brain.

In an effort to be brief, mass is energy. It maintains it's form through some attraction or cohesive pattern. (right?)

So, why not thoughts? They have a measurable energy when utilized.

Once you remember something, it's not destroyed, yet energy was expended to produce it. So where is that energy coming from if not a recycling source? We can say that a chemical reaction created the spark, but why that particular spark, in that particular manner, to create the replication of a past event? There has to be a controlling force. A patterned force.

I'll stop there for any offered correction or direction.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Feb-14, 05:14 PM
The Religion and Ethics BBS (http://disc.server.com/Indices/175790.html) seems like a promising place. I can't say that I know it very well.

beskeptical
2005-Feb-14, 06:26 PM
You'll get a serious discussion about such topics here (http://www.skepticfriends.org/forum/). I haven't had a chance to look at the above two forums so I can't compare them yet. TSFN will not let bad science slip by. They will explain why the science is bad if it is, and they won't dismiss it without reason.

So if you want support without merit, it isn't the place. If you have a valid scientific hypothesis, they have an open mind and will tell you it is valid.

You know, though, the science of god can be discussed here. It's only when you veer off the science that it doesn't belong. We've had many a discussion here that involved the science of both politics and religion.

farmerjumperdon
2005-Feb-14, 07:20 PM
One distinction I would offer is that between religion and spirituality.

Religion is political, group-based, rules oriented, and dogmatic. It almost always involves gods and dieties, usually in the image of man.

Spirituality is individual, and almost always manifests itself in attributes like freedom, expression, openness, and connectedness.

I often get very funny looks from people when I tell them that I am an atheist, but very spiritual. The whole idea was very well laid out recently, I think in National Geographic of all places. The position there was that people are genetically predisposed to feelings of spirituality; which has very little to do with whether or not they practiced any kind of organized religion.

David Mc
2005-Feb-14, 08:50 PM
Thanks Skeptic and Farmer, both.

It certainly wouldn't do me any personal good to be let away with a falsehood. I'm fair when judging my own thoughts. But the posters on the BABB are far more qualified, and would be in better character, to stop an erroneous progression. That's why I would prefer to discuss it on this site.

Religion, for me, is the ugly offspring of spirituality. At least Farmer and I can agree on that.

And Farmer just introduced another point the big puzzle. The Sun is predisposed to being hot because of it's nature :)
God, by existing, would have a resonant frequency. If we are made of the same stuff then we would be aware of it and, thus, "predisposed". More fuel for the theoretical fire, but short on proof.

I've been editing this for a half hour trying to be sure any further comment goes where I want it to. Geesh. Where do you start exploring this?

(I checked into TSFN. What an energetic group. That's a good one.)

Jpax2003
2005-Feb-17, 07:30 AM
God, by existing, would have a resonant frequency.Would God also have a dissonant frequency? Are you thinking that the cosmic background radiation is that resonance?

Enzp
2005-Feb-17, 08:57 AM
Not so sure that memories are charged particles. Electrical charges move along the neurons, but that is not memory.

ANd not so sure about your idea that thoughts could maintain their "structure" outside the brain either. The brain is what gives any of it structure. If you print words on a page, the page is what maintains the structure of hte ink. Soak the ink off the page and it won't retain any structure. The words would be gone. Certainly the only way ions can maintain their charges and organization is within something they can reference to. The chemistry of the brain allows the various reactions that are thoughts, the chemical gradients allow the ions to do what they do. Like ink on a page, you remove the chemistry and the neuron structure, there is no place for any of this to organize itself.

To me the whole idea of disembodied spirits is in the area of the paranormal.

I am not so sure that thoughts have measurable energy. When you have them, energetic things happen. But like ink on a page, the ink has no energy, it took energy to print them there. You have memories because of chemical reactions and intercell connections. I need to put energy into the system to keep it alive - eat or die - but the memories themselves don't require energy. I don't have to work to have memories.

Where does the energy come from to place a memory? From your breakfast. Nutrients from your food power the brain. Sodium in salt for example or phosphorus from your banana. These things set up the body chemistry that allows thought. That you have thoughts stems from the structure of the brain - how all the cells interconnect and the chemical processes in them. Just like the motor in the printing press has to run, regardless of what you print.

Again, it is not the thoughts that have energy when used, it is the brain using energy to access them. I have to walk over to the book to read it, the book burns no energy of its own.

I am not suggesting crystals or votices, but it really sounds like you are looking for a scientific basis for paranormal phenomena. I consider mind out of body paranormal.

Jpax2003
2005-Feb-17, 10:24 AM
I am not suggesting crystals or votices, but it really sounds like you are looking for a scientific basis for paranormal phenomena. I consider mind out of body paranormal.Almost looks as if you think mind-in-body is paranormal as well. 8-[