PDA

View Full Version : Pope John Paul II



banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Feb-24, 11:47 AM
Breaking news this am-

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/24/pope/index.html

Candy
2005-Feb-24, 03:06 PM
:(

I'm a little Catholic challenged, but why don't they retire Pope's? It just seems kind of sad to watch a man slowly die. :-?

Wally
2005-Feb-24, 03:09 PM
I was thinking the same thing this morning Candy. At the least, the poor guy should voluntarily step down and live out the rest of his life in private. . . :-?

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-24, 03:11 PM
We do, but he's still got more fight in him than Strom Thurmond, so it ain't easy.

Argos
2005-Feb-24, 03:13 PM
AFAIK, the Pope refuses to step down for himself. Hes very authoritarian.

kucharek
2005-Feb-24, 03:16 PM
Popes can't be retired, but he could step down. This has rarely happened.
Isn't it the same with judges at the Supreme Court in the US?

Spacewriter
2005-Feb-24, 03:18 PM
I find it somewhat ironic that the head of a church that wants everybody to put their trust in a deity cannot find it within himself to put HIS trust in the same deity when it comes to retiring his position and letting someone less sick do the job.

I AM a former Catholic, so I know that they are supposed to die in office, but I'm not completely sure if they're required to die in office or it's just a quaint custom...

Doodler
2005-Feb-24, 03:19 PM
Popes can't be retired, but he could step down. This has rarely happened.
Isn't it the same with judges at the Supreme Court in the US?

Yes, appointment for life, and they decide when they retire. Its designed to keep them out of the political rat race. I imagine that Chief Justice Reinquist isn't going to retire unless it looks like he's really going to lose the fight with cancer.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-24, 03:26 PM
I find it somewhat ironic that the head of a church that wants everybody to put their trust in a deity cannot find it within himself to put HIS trust in the same deity when it comes to retiring his position and letting someone less sick do the job.
Hey, no fair, Spacewriter. That could be said about any pope, at any time, since most of them are nearly past "retirement" age anyway. That's why the current one is, what, third on the list for longevity, as he was elected in his late fifties--a young pope.

Here's a webpage (http://www.saginaw.org/untener/writings/americaarticle.htm) with a few more details.

PS: Looks like Pius IX and maybe Peter, that's it.

Argos
2005-Feb-24, 03:32 PM
On papal abdication (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01031a.htm):


Like every other ecclesiastical dignity, the papal throne may also be resigned. The reasons which make it lawful for a bishop to abdicate his see, such as the necessity or utility of his particular church, or the salvation of his own soul, apply in a stronger manner to the one who governs the universal church. It is true that the Roman Pontiff has no superior on earth into whose hands he can resign his dignity, yet he himself by the papal power can dissolve the spiritual marriage between himself and the Roman Church. A papal Abdication made without cause may be illicit, but it is unquestionably valid, since there is no one who can prohibit it ecclesiastically and it contravenes no divine law. The papacy does not, like the episcopacy, imprint an indelible character on the soul, and hence by his voluntary Abdication the Pope is entirely stripped of all jurisdiction, just as by his voluntary acceptance of the election to the primacy he acquired it. All doubt as to the legitimacy of papal abdications and all disputes among canonists were put an end to by the decree of Pope Boniface VIII which was received into the Corpus Juris Canonici (Cap. Quoniam I, de renun., in 6). The Pontiff says:

Our predecessor, Pope Celestine V, whilst he governed the Church, constituted and decreed that the Roman Pontiff can freely resign. Therefore lest it happen that this statute should in the course of time fall into oblivion, or that doubt upon the subject should lead to further disputes, We have determined with the counsel of our brethren that it be placed among other constitutions for a perpetual memory of the same.

gethen
2005-Feb-24, 04:28 PM
While the Pope seems to be too sick to be effective right now, I'm not so sure that's a big deal. I think that the day-to-day running of the Church has been handled by subordinates for some time now, and I seem to recall from my Catholic school days that it is only when a Pope speaks "ex cathedra," that is, officially on matters of faith, that his supposed infalliibility kicks in. So unless some large, critical, and urgent issue presented itself, his illness shouldn't present any major problem. Of course the faithful would say his mere presence is important, but I think the Church has gotten by with incapacitated Popes in the past without falling apart.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Feb-24, 04:38 PM
I find it somewhat ironic that the head of a church that wants everybody to put their trust in a deity cannot find it within himself to put HIS trust in the same deity when it comes to retiring his position and letting someone less sick do the job.
I imagine that his point of view is that he's been given a mission in this world -- to lead his Church for as long as his strength allows him. If the mission becomes increasingly more difficult to carry out, well... we've all got a cross to bear.

Doodler
2005-Feb-24, 07:56 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/02/24/pope/index.html


Looks like they might trache him, this is usually not a good sign for a man his age and infirmity. Signs of major respiratory troubles are a serious red flag. Influenza gives way to pneumonia in a snap, and that's usually what takes them.

I don't agree with some of his beliefs, but he's a tough nut that doesn't crack, who's stared down some serious challenges in his time, and that I respect. This is no way for him to have to go.

Musashi
2005-Feb-24, 08:40 PM
There was an interesting article about papal retirement in the papaer a few days ago. The most important point seemed to be that being the pope isn't just a job, it is who you are.

Thyla
2005-Feb-25, 10:28 AM
If Pope John Paul dies tomorrow. Does anyone know who is going to take his place? I'm curious.

I grew up catholic, I've known this particular man as THEE pope most of my life! It's kind of sad to see him so frail and dying. And you all know he doesn't have much time left. I agree with the person who stated that being a pope isn't a job, it's who you are. I don't think they should take that away from him. I think they should just let him fade into the sunset and let him pass on comfortably with who he is. It's not like he was the big wig making important decisions the last few years anyways, I could be wrong, but I'm sure he has many advisors and he was more of a symbol to the church.

I have some names listed on a 'deathpool' website, I think the pope has been the #1 choice for dying at any time for a long time. lol. I don't have him on my list. But I believe almost 2,000 people do. Is that morbid or what!

Laguna
2005-Feb-25, 10:50 AM
If Pope John Paul dies tomorrow. Does anyone know who is going to take his place? I'm curious.
Some potential successors:
Dario Castrillon Hoyos (Colombia),

Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduras),

Dionigi Tettamanzi (Italy)

Kardinal Joseph Ratzinger (Germany) the chief architect of Pope John Paul II's traditionalist moral policy and his closest advisor.

Manekineko
2005-Feb-25, 11:28 AM
Just general info on selecting a new pope:
all cardinals of Catholic church will gather in Rome, in Sistine chapel, and vote. Any cardinal may be named as the next pope. Technicaly, any Christian man could, but it basically never happens. Majority (I think) of votes decides... unless the Holy Spirit inspires the conclave and they elect the new pope by acclamation, of course...

Wally
2005-Feb-25, 02:28 PM
While the Pope seems to be too sick to be effective right now, I'm not so sure that's a big deal. I think that the day-to-day running of the Church has been handled by subordinates for some time now, and I seem to recall from my Catholic school days that it is only when a Pope speaks "ex cathedra," that is, officially on matters of faith, that his supposed infalliibility kicks in. So unless some large, critical, and urgent issue presented itself, his illness shouldn't present any major problem. Of course the faithful would say his mere presence is important, but I think the Church has gotten by with incapacitated Popes in the past without falling apart.

Hope no one takes offense, but I've been under the impression that the pope's been out of it for the past few years now. Every time you see him, it looks as if he's become nothing more than a living talisman that the others guide around and use. I Remember a year or so ago, they showed him giving communion. A guy at his side would place a waffer in his hand, he'd turn may 5 degrees or so, the person would take the waffer. The poor guy looked like he had no idea where he even was, let alone what he was doing

Doodler
2005-Feb-25, 02:34 PM
If the Pope dies, the College of Cardinals (If it wears red, its sequestered in an old building in the Vatican till a new Pope is plucked) assembles to decide on who takes over, its not pre-planned. Apparently, campaigning for the job is forbidden (like I believe this for a femtosecond) and there is no timeline on deliberations (its historically gone as fast as 5 hours, and as long as 200+ days). While traditionally the Pope is elected from among the cardinals, its not a requirement. (Someone with time to Google it can find out if its ever happened, I think it has at least once).

For those of you wondering where an atheist gets this kind of skinny, remember the glory days of the History Channel before she went to sensationalist drek? Alas Horatio, I knew it...

gethen
2005-Feb-25, 02:55 PM
Here you go (http://www.americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-papel1.htm), Doodler. This discussion of papal sucession seems pretty detailed, including the fact that not all popes have come from the college of Cardinals. Peter is a good example. :wink: Seriously, it seems that in the 11th century the pope came from somewhere other than the college.
Didn't read far enough to see from where though.

papageno
2005-Feb-25, 04:14 PM
While traditionally the Pope is elected from among the cardinals, its not a requirement. (Someone with time to Google it can find out if its ever happened, I think it has at least once).


If memory serves, the already mentioned Pope Celestine V was not a cardinal (and Dante had a grudge against him because his abdication allowed Pope Boniface VIII to get in charge 8) ).

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Feb-25, 04:26 PM
(its historically gone as fast as 5 hours, and as long as 200+ days).
What about the time that it took so long, they stopped feeding the cardinals, and took the roof off? (google (http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa050901a.htm)) After Pope Clement IV died, they took three years, and even after they stopped feeding them anything but bread and water, they didn't elect a pope. It was only after they took the roof off the building that they found a successor.

Doodler
2005-Feb-25, 04:34 PM
(its historically gone as fast as 5 hours, and as long as 200+ days).
What about the time that it took so long, they stopped feeding the cardinals, and took the roof off? (google (http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa050901a.htm)) After Pope Clement IV died, they took three years, and even after they stopped feeding them anything but bread and water, they didn't elect a pope. It was only after they took the roof off the building that they found a successor.

LOL, I had remembered one that was insanely long, but didn't remember the duration off the top of my head, that's why I left it with a "+" at the end of my high mark.

Gillianren
2005-Feb-25, 11:09 PM
if I remember my Catholic Sunday school days well enough, they're not allowed to adjourn.

there's no vice Pope. that's why they go through the College of Cardinals routine--if I remember my Catholic traditions, there can be no more than 70 deliberating members, and no cardinal can be excluded. ergo, no more than 70 cardinals.

what I find odd is that there is a chance, albeit not a very good one, that Cardinal Roger Mahoney could theoretically be the next Pope. why is this odd to me? because, back when I was still Catholic, he made one of our parish priests a Monsignor, in the process presiding over a mass in the chruch of St. Elizabeth of Hungary in Altadena, CA, where I grew up--and he gave me communion. it's just an odd thought to me that I received communion from a theoretical Pope.

Candy
2005-Mar-30, 06:42 PM
Pope Getting Nutrition From Tube in Nose (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=050330&cat=news&st=newsd895dho80&src =ap)

That's a scary photo. :o

Charlie in Dayton
2005-Mar-31, 01:59 AM
My dad was the deacon of the neighborhood Catholic church, so we got into some rather detailed discussions of How It's Done in Vatican City.

Although there isn't the proverbial snowball's chance of this ever happening, apparently there is nothing in the rules that says the College of Cardinals has to elect one of its own as the next Pope. In theory (magic words) they could elect any member of the Church, down to and including lowly civilian.

...yeah...Pope Charlie I...can ya see it?...NOT!!!!!

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-01, 06:06 PM
might be an announcement coming from Reuters soon

Candy
2005-Apr-01, 06:10 PM
might be an announcement coming from Reuters soon :(

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 06:24 PM
John Paul the Second has died. The first non Italian in over 400 years (I think).

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-01, 06:26 PM
link?

Mars
2005-Apr-01, 06:29 PM
Yahoo has not announced anything yet.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-01, 06:31 PM
link to Reuters is very slow

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 06:31 PM
Sorry, no link as of yet...I'm sitting here watching Fox News and they are reporting his just now passing (it's 1:30 EST where I am). Bells are tolling at St. Peters.

Musashi
2005-Apr-01, 06:32 PM
CNN shows it at the top. No details yet.

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-01, 06:32 PM
It was on the news here, but they said to be doubtful since Reuters announced Yassir Arafat's death two days too early.

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 06:35 PM
Ok, the Italian News Network is reporting the death of the Pope as well. I hope that they aren't jumping the gun!

Candy
2005-Apr-01, 06:35 PM
Not to many deaths make me cry, but this is starting to bring tears to my eyes. :cry:

The Supreme Canuck
2005-Apr-01, 06:40 PM
I just realized that I was at the Vatican last Thursday! :o

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 06:44 PM
Oh My Goodness! Now Fox News is saying that he may not have passed on as of yet! Yikes! (1:44 EST).

Mars
2005-Apr-01, 06:46 PM
Yahoo is now reporting it, no confirmation from the Vatican.

Moose
2005-Apr-01, 06:47 PM
Neither the CBC or BBC have posted anything other than "his health is deteriorating", as of 40 minutes ago.

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-01, 06:52 PM
should have waited for confirmation on this

Candy
2005-Apr-01, 06:53 PM
The Vatican has the official word.

If you read between the lines... it sounds like the Vatican is trying to get 'things' in order, before releasing a statement. :-?

pumpkinpie
2005-Apr-01, 06:56 PM
Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=OFVJAMWMEY23ECRBAEOCF EY?type=topNews&storyID=8064784) is saying they are getting contradictory reports from Italy--first that his brain functions had ceased, then that it wasn't true.

W.F. Tomba
2005-Apr-01, 06:58 PM
CNN.com says he's "in deteriorating condition".

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 07:02 PM
You can get live video from the vatican square here (http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MXQ5MTU3BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAMwBHRtc GwDaW5kZXgtaWU)

Tensor
2005-Apr-01, 07:06 PM
The Vatican is denying reports the Pope has died.

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 07:07 PM
I don't speak Italian or Latin but given what is happening on the live feed I'd say the dear old man has passed from this life.

pumpkinpie
2005-Apr-01, 07:27 PM
I don't speak Italian or Latin but given what is happening on the live feed I'd say the dear old man has passed from this life.
What's happening on the live feed? (can't check it myself.)

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 07:34 PM
I don't speak Italian or Latin but given what is happening on the live feed I'd say the dear old man has passed from this life.
What's happening on the live feed? (can't check it myself.)

There has been/is a group of priests, nuns and (apparently) laymen, saying prayers, hail Mary's and other things I can't interpret. A few of the words I've picked out are "Ponte morta" "nou ponte morta" "quinta ponte morta". I think they mean "pope dead" "our pope dead" and "when pope dies." At least that's what I get from the context of what's happening.

Vatican square is mobbed and getting more crowded.

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 07:34 PM
Well, now they're saying literally *nothing*. It's almost as if they are waiting for something...maybe a coroner to give an official time of death? Maybe someone just really jumped the gun, so to speak?

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 07:45 PM
Word must be getting around about this site. It is starting to get REALLY slow. :roll:

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 07:48 PM
Well, now they're saying literally *nothing*. It's almost as if they are waiting for something...maybe a coroner to give an official time of death? Maybe someone just really jumped the gun, so to speak?

Do you speak Italian? Or whatever language they are speaking? I recognize that they are mostly going through standarized prayers/psalms/chants&songs but am missing the gist of the talk.

Fram
2005-Apr-01, 07:51 PM
I just want to say that it is very confusing to see this thread title and then start on page 1, which is way older and does not coincide with the title. I think it is normally the rule not to change a thread title if that can be confusing or misleading...

Apart from that, with regards to his stand in the Schiavo case, I do hope he stays alive as long as medically possible, but I'll stay out of this discussion any further, as any other comment I can make will be even ruder...

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 08:48 PM
Well, now they're saying literally *nothing*. It's almost as if they are waiting for something...maybe a coroner to give an official time of death? Maybe someone just really jumped the gun, so to speak?

Do you speak Italian? Or whatever language they are speaking? I recognize that they are mostly going through standarized prayers/psalms/chants&songs but am missing the gist of the talk.

Well, I speak French fairly well and only know Latin as far as it's used for species classification. However, my neighbor speaks Italian quite well (she's monitoring it in Italian) and she says they aren't saying much beyond that he is not expected to recover and that the end is very near...basically what the TV is now saying. I think someone jumped the gun, big time!

Jpax2003
2005-Apr-01, 08:53 PM
I think someone jumped the gun, big time!I was listening to FoxNewsChannel (I don't know why) and there was a person speaking in italian but then you hear a young ladies voice cut in saying "the pope's dead." They attributed it to an over-eager producer. I don't know if the italian was saying the pope was dead or not.

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 08:57 PM
Apart from that, with regards to his stand in the Schiavo case, I do hope he stays alive as long as medically possible, but I'll stay out of this discussion any further, as any other comment I can make will be even ruder...

I don't feel that this is a case of "rudeness", more like a mistake. Fox News and the Italian News Network were all saying that the Pope had passed on earlier this afternoon. That's now being reported as having been incorrect.

collegeguy
2005-Apr-01, 08:59 PM
It is not even clear if he has died yet and people already started with the "conspiracies":

http://charleypatton.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-pope-dead-aka-vatican-conspiracy.html

Normandy6644
2005-Apr-01, 08:59 PM
Practice with me now everyone, this is what you need to listen for:

Il Papa morto.

or

Il Papa deceduto.

What are you watching anyway, I can't seem to find it?

N C More
2005-Apr-01, 09:00 PM
I think someone jumped the gun, big time!I was listening to FoxNewsChannel (I don't know why) and there was a person speaking in italian but then you hear a young ladies voice cut in saying "the pope's dead." They attributed it to an over-eager producer. I don't know if the italian was saying the pope was dead or not.

I heard the exact same thing and my neighbor (she was visiting me) said that the person speaking Italian had said that as well...hence the "jumping of the gun".

Russ
2005-Apr-01, 09:07 PM
Practice with me now everyone, this is what you need to listen for:

Il Papa morto.

or

Il Papa deceduto.

What are you watching anyway, I can't seem to find it?

This is the source page. The link is on the right under the popes picture. (http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MXQ5MTU3BF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAMwBHRtc GwDaW5kZXgtaWU)

Edit to note: This link no longer takes you to the vatican square streaming camera.

beskeptical
2005-Apr-01, 09:08 PM
I just want to say that it is very confusing to see this thread title and then start on page 1, which is way older and does not coincide with the title. I think it is normally the rule not to change a thread title if that can be confusing or misleading...

Apart from that, with regards to his stand in the Schiavo case, I do hope he stays alive as long as medically possible, but I'll stay out of this discussion any further, as any other comment I can make will be even ruder...I too did not appreciate the title change as when I went to page one the article did not match. Just start a new thread next time, thanks. If you want you can link to the older one.

As to the life supports, the earlier news was the staff at the Vatican assumed from the Pontiff's statements about Schiavo and other statements they should do everything. At some point, however, the Pope refused to go back to the hospital which then rules out return to the ventilator and many other measures only done in an ICU setting.

This is all from todays news so none of the information is certain, but the fact they didn't take him back to the hospital adds credibility. Seems no matter what your public stance, there are always exceptions. Too bad people can't see that when they go proclaiming what other people should do.

beskeptical
2005-Apr-01, 09:13 PM
It is not even clear if he has died yet and people already started with the "conspiracies":

http://charleypatton.blogspot.com/2005/03/is-pope-dead-aka-vatican-conspiracy.htmlWell I don't think the Easter picture of the Pope trying unsuccessfully to talk looked fake. The blog guy is an idiot of course. Why these people imagine all this nonsense, like 'anyone would prefer the Pope not die on a certain religious day' is very imaginative to say the least. I wonder what they think the difference would be?

frogesque
2005-Apr-01, 09:30 PM
Especially for something with world wide importance the change of thread title was indiscrete to say the least. That said let's draw a line under it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope the Pontif is able to spend his final intimate moment with the world when it comes, at peace, and with the dignity he so patently carried the burdens of office.

In the words of Dave Allen - May his God go with him.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-02, 02:48 AM
Anyway, I would imagine that the western hemisphere cardinal would get the nod, but not from North America, and they would speak Spanish. And be under 70, but just. So, Bergoglio, just based on that.

Jobe
2005-Apr-02, 02:54 AM
one more judgemental embittered catholic power player bites the dust

2005-Apr-02, 06:20 AM
He was still alive ten minutes' ago... 8-[ 8-[ 8-[

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-02, 01:59 PM
apologies to all...edited

N C More
2005-Apr-02, 02:26 PM
apologies to all...edited

No, you shouldn't have to apologize...Fox News should be the ones to do that! At 1:30 PM yesterday they were reporting his death! I heard it too!

Apparently, the mistake originated from the Italian News Network. A reporter said (in Italian) that the Pope had died and someone from Fox News (who spoke Italian) translated before it could be confirmed! Big Oops :oops:

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 02:38 PM
Given the already excessive and protracted coverage, one wonders if this will wind up as a skit on SNL, ala Francisco Franco? :-?

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-02, 03:53 PM
Given the already excessive and protracted coverage, one wonders if this will wind up as a skit on SNL, ala Francisco Franco?
SNL probably figures they took out their pound of flesh (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-365/epid-104215/) a long time ago.

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 04:06 PM
Given the already excessive and protracted coverage, one wonders if this will wind up as a skit on SNL, ala Francisco Franco?
SNL probably figures they took out their pound of flesh (http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-365/epid-104215/) a long time ago.
Wow, what a grudge!

banquo's_bumble_puppy
2005-Apr-02, 04:09 PM
who do you think will be the Pope's successor?

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 04:16 PM
who do you think will be the Pope's successor?
Pope Charlie I (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=445914&#445914) :wink:

papageno
2005-Apr-02, 04:24 PM
who do you think will be the Pope's successor?
There were plenty of jokes about our PM Berlusconi's intentions to become Pope. :o

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-02, 04:24 PM
Wow, what a grudge!
Sinad O'Connor? Tim Robbins? The Pope? E!?

who do you think will be the Pope's successor?
I posted my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110) yesterday

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 04:36 PM
who do you think will be the Pope's successor?
Pope Charlie I (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=445914&#445914) :wink:
Nah...

Father Guido Sarducci (http://home.earthlink.net/~sarasohn/aboutgs.html)

beskeptical
2005-Apr-02, 06:14 PM
one more judgemental embittered catholic power player bites the dustembittered?

beskeptical
2005-Apr-02, 06:16 PM
apologies to all...edited

No, you shouldn't have to apologize...Fox News should be the ones to do that! At 1:30 PM yesterday they were reporting his death! I heard it too!

Apparently, the mistake originated from the Italian News Network. A reporter said (in Italian) that the Pope had died and someone from Fox News (who spoke Italian) translated before it could be confirmed! Big Oops :oops:He's apologizing for editing the thread title, NC, not for the premature reports of the Pope's demise.

Apology accepted.

N C More
2005-Apr-02, 07:11 PM
apologies to all...edited

No, you shouldn't have to apologize...Fox News should be the ones to do that! At 1:30 PM yesterday they were reporting his death! I heard it too!

Apparently, the mistake originated from the Italian News Network. A reporter said (in Italian) that the Pope had died and someone from Fox News (who spoke Italian) translated before it could be confirmed! Big Oops :oops:He's apologizing for editing the thread title, NC, not for the premature reports of the Pope's demise.

Apology accepted.

I thought the issue was that the edited title was incorrect due to the false information released yesterday. The issue actually appears to be that the thread title was edited at all, regardless of it's accuracy...I think I *get it* now.

frogesque
2005-Apr-02, 08:10 PM
Perhaps it would have been better to start a fresh thread in light of the Pontif's deteriorating state (and I am assuming he is still alive) but now we have a thread title that is relevent I think the issue has been resolved. Thanks banquo's_bumble_puppy

It always seems indelicate to speculate about a successor when the current incumbent is still in office regardless of the situation or the duty attached. Pope John Paul II has steered the Catholic faith though some difficult and challenging times and it becomes the Faith well to suport him now in his final hours, days, weeks or years. Though I would not agree with him on matters of religion, I do believe he is an honest and good man.

It isn't within our gift to forsee the future and it's probably wiser not to want to. No doubt white smoke will apear in time so really it behoves us all to wait until the announcement is made about who the next Pope will be.

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 08:18 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

Moose
2005-Apr-02, 08:18 PM
Frogesque, just a "hear hear".

I have enormous respect for John Paul II's courage, will, strength, and sincerety, even though I agree with very few of his political/religious stances.

pumpkinpie
2005-Apr-02, 08:21 PM
Does anyone remember what it was like when the last Pope was replaced, 26 years ago? I know that the media has changed quite a bit since then, but I'm interested to know if it was at all the circus it is now.

Moose
2005-Apr-02, 08:22 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

Not long, by my understanding.

Basically, just enough time to gather the Cardinals to vote.

beskeptical
2005-Apr-02, 08:25 PM
I think this announcement (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20050402/ts_nm/pope_dc) is correct, he's dead. I think it was pretty inevitable as of a day or two ago.

tmosher
2005-Apr-02, 08:25 PM
Pope John Paul II dies at 84 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/02/pope.dies/index.html)

Moose
2005-Apr-02, 08:35 PM
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399715.stm)'s announcing it as well.

[Edit:] And so is the CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/04/02/pope-dead050402.html)

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 08:35 PM
I just hope his successor is as vigilant. :(

W.F. Tomba
2005-Apr-02, 08:36 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

Not long, by my understanding.

Basically, just enough time to gather the Cardinals to vote.
According to an AP info box published on the NY Times site today, they don't meet until 15-20 days after the Pope dies.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Vatican-Conclave-Summary-Box.html

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 08:39 PM
Goodbye...

I see no need for weeping, since, per Catholic dogma, as an heir to Saint Peter, he is now with Christ and God in Heaven.

Perhaps the next one will be more in tune with what is scientifically accurate about the current world.

Nevertheless, I remember the joy in the machine shop, where I worked back in the 1970s, among the Polish guys (about 70% of the workforce) when he got elected. It was nice to see Catholicism showing its ability to choose other than an Italian Pope.

May the acknowledgment of the validity of science prosper under the new Pope.

frogesque
2005-Apr-02, 08:40 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

Moose
2005-Apr-02, 08:40 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

Not long, by my understanding.

Basically, just enough time to gather the Cardinals to vote.
According to an AP info box published on the NY Times site today, they don't meet until 15-20 days after the Pope dies.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Vatican-Conclave-Summary-Box.html

Huh. Thanks for the correction, W.F.

I guess that makes sense, though. There's got to be some time in there for the state funeral. It wouldn't do to distract everyone by piling on the vote.

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 08:56 PM
I see on FOX News that the announcer is 10:56 Vatican Time. Do they have their own time zone?

tmosher
2005-Apr-02, 09:10 PM
I see on FOX News that the announcer is 10:56 Vatican Time. Do they have their own time zone?

Vatican City is on the same time zone as Rome - CET - Central European Time.

Central European Time (http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/eu/cet.html)

They're probably showing that to give viewers an idea of what time it is in Vatican City (which is a state in itself).

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 09:14 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 09:18 PM
This isn't related to the famous "ROPE-A-DOPE" (http://www.hboppv.com/web_exclusives/boxing_history/ali_foreman.shtml), is it?

tmosher
2005-Apr-02, 09:21 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?

Actually, it is from 1996 and was issued by Pope John Paul II.

The burning of the ballots has symbolism - the smoke issuing from the chimney of the hospice where the cardinals are voting indicates whether or not they have elected a pope. White smoke indicates a new pope has been elected, black smoke indicates they have not elected a new pope.

Electing a New Pope (http://people.howstuffworks.com/papacy3.htm)

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 09:24 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?
Hmmm...care to elaborate on that?

White smoke indicates a new pope has been elected, black smoke indicates they have not elected a new pope.
Sounds silly. 8-[

Maksutov
2005-Apr-02, 09:30 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?
Hmmm...care to elaborate on that?

White smoke indicates a new pope has been elected, black smoke indicates they have not elected a new pope.
Sounds silly. 8-[
Agreed!

What are they smoking in there?

:D

tmosher
2005-Apr-02, 09:32 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?
Hmmm...care to elaborate on that?

White smoke indicates a new pope has been elected, black smoke indicates they have not elected a new pope.
Sounds silly. 8-[

Much of Catholicism sounds silly to those who were not brought up in the religion (yes, I'm Catholic - Thomas Gerard Steven Mosher - Steven is my confirmation name).

Each religion has it's ritual. Some of the Catholic ritual was changed in Vatican II by Pope Paul VI to the consternation of many Catholics (it sure ticked off my mom at the time).

frogesque
2005-Apr-02, 09:38 PM
Historically the burning and colour of the the smoke was a visible signal to the whole of Rome that a new Pope had been chosen - it avoided rumours. Really the whole election process, though slow, is very modern and democratic for a time when the Pope was considered to be the most powerful man on Earth. The Church will not disintegrate in the meantime and there is no immdiate hurry. Tradition still has its place in the world.

Candy
2005-Apr-02, 09:39 PM
How long does it take to 'replace' a Pope (for various reasons - death, in this case)? 8-[

It's complicated! (http://www.cin.org/pope/election-pope.html#ch2-5)

70. There then follows the third and last phase, also known as the post-scrutiny, which comprises: 1) the counting of the votes; 2) the checking of the same; 3) the burning of the ballots.
Me thinks this is a little outdated. :-?
Hmmm...care to elaborate on that?

White smoke indicates a new pope has been elected, black smoke indicates they have not elected a new pope.
Sounds silly. 8-[
Agreed!

What are they smoking in there?

:D
Hmmm...care to elaborate on that? :lol:

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-03, 12:36 PM
Does anyone remember what it was like when the last Pope was replaced, 26 years ago? I know that the media has changed quite a bit since then, but I'm interested to know if it was at all the circus it is now.
Sure, it happened twice in two months, 26 years ago. Got to be old hat.

Disinfo Agent
2005-Apr-04, 10:18 AM
Perhaps the next one will be more in tune with what is scientifically accurate about the current world.
What are you talking about? :-?

Fram
2005-Apr-04, 10:48 AM
Historically the burning and colour of the the smoke was a visible signal to the whole of Rome that a new Pope had been chosen - it avoided rumours. Really the whole election process, though slow, is very modern and democratic for a time when the Pope was considered to be the most powerful man on Earth. The Church will not disintegrate in the meantime and there is no immdiate hurry. Tradition still has its place in the world.

If you replace 'on Earth' with 'In western Europe', that may be correct. I assume you're talking of the 7th - 13th century?
Apart from that, I don't really care what tradition and means they use, it's definitely no longer very modern or democratic, but that's quite simi!lar to the rest of the institution...

TriangleMan
2005-Apr-04, 11:01 AM
Does anyone remember what it was like when the last Pope was replaced, 26 years ago? I know that the media has changed quite a bit since then, but I'm interested to know if it was at all the circus it is now.
Sure, it happened twice in two months, 26 years ago. Got to be old hat.
Given that 26 years ago the media was rarely the 'circus' that it is now - and that there were no 24-hour news channels and so forth - I don't think the media coverage back then was quite the same. I don't even remember the death/funeral of John Paul I.

kucharek
2005-Apr-04, 11:10 AM
The rites were the same, but the media world has changed.
Some want to put blame to the Vatican that they make a media spectacle out of JPII dying, death & funeral. I'd say, they do the best they can do in todays media world. They gave out statements and pictures as soon as the situation changed. But even this didn't help that some newssources, in the mad race to be the first to report the death of the pope, issued wrong statements.
One German public broadcasting station did a pretty nice job when on friday just to interrupt their program to have a news announcer just state that all news about the death of the pope are wrong and that the Vatican has confirmed this. That's how serious journalism has to be.

Sigma_Orionis
2005-Apr-04, 04:03 PM
(its historically gone as fast as 5 hours, and as long as 200+ days).
What about the time that it took so long, they stopped feeding the cardinals, and took the roof off? (google (http://italian.about.com/library/weekly/aa050901a.htm)) After Pope Clement IV died, they took three years, and even after they stopped feeding them anything but bread and water, they didn't elect a pope. It was only after they took the roof off the building that they found a successor.

IIRC that was in 1316 in the election of John XXII. If Maurice Druon's writings are correct (well he WAS a French Historian, but I got this from his historical novels "The Damned Kings"), King Phillip IV of France wanted a french pope (just like Clement V who had died in 1314) and did his best to mess up the election process (as matter of fact the Pope's residence at the time was in Avignon - France, not Rome).

In 1316 the pretender to the French throne Count Phillip of Poitiers (second son of Phillip IV and future Phillip V) made a deal with Jaques Dueze (future John XXII), since the Cardinal College was in complete disarray, (thanks firstly to Phillip IV et al, but the Cardinals themselves must take part of the blame) with everybody pulling their way, one of the main problems being the rift between the symphatizers of the French Royalty (who wanted to keep the Papal Residence in Avignon) and the traditionalists (who wanted to move the Papal Residence to Rome, Dueze kept his mouth shut about this ;) ). Phillip of Poitiers managed to gather them in a funeral mass to the late french king Loius X (elder brother of Phillip), literally closed all of the doors in the cathedral where the service was being held, and announced to them that they would not leave till they had elected a Pope. Phillip of Poitiers pressured them from the outside (by restricting their food) and threatened them to remove the roof of the cathedral, while Dueze claimed to be sick, and close to death, so the Cardinals elected him Pope in order to get out of their forced Conclave. After that Dueze claimed that the news that he had been elected pope had given him such faith that he conquered his sickeness and was Pope John XXII for 18 years. Now I will bite my tongue so I don't make any comments on Politics AND/OR Religion :D

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Apr-04, 06:53 PM
IIRC that was in 1316 in the election of John XXII.
No, it was the election of Gregory X in 1271. The election of John XXII only took 2 years and 3 months. Maybe they knew the threat was real. :)

Kullat Nunu
2005-Apr-04, 08:27 PM
a time when the Pope was considered to be the most powerful man on Earth

If you replace 'on Earth' with 'In western Europe', that may be correct. I assume you're talking of the 7th - 13th century?

During that period, there were some slightly more powerful men in the east. :)

But in the European POV that was probably true.

Sigma_Orionis
2005-Apr-06, 01:36 PM
IIRC that was in 1316 in the election of John XXII.
No, it was the election of Gregory X in 1271. The election of John XXII only took 2 years and 3 months. Maybe they knew the threat was real. :)

Quite correct about the election of Gregory X, I am still looking for the sources on the election of John XXII.

grapes
2013-Feb-11, 07:41 PM
Anyway, I would imagine that the western hemisphere cardinal would get the nod, but not from North America, and they would speak Spanish. And be under 70, but just. So, Bergoglio, just based on that.
Hmmm, what are the odds?

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-11, 08:54 PM
Currently it looks like Turkson from Ghana is in the lead at 3/1, Bergoglio's at 80/1.
Sandri from Argentina's the most believed in South American at 6/1.

And yes, I know I'm commenting on a comment on a post from 2005.

Swift
2013-Feb-11, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by A Thousand Pardons
Anyway, I would imagine that the western hemisphere cardinal would get the nod, but not from North America, and they would speak Spanish. And be under 70, but just. So, Bergoglio, just based on that.
Hmmm, what are the odds?
I don't know grapes, I wouldnt' trust anything that A Thousand Pardons fellow said.
:p

grapes
2013-Feb-12, 01:51 PM
Currently it looks like Turkson from Ghana is in the lead at 3/1, Bergoglio's at 80/1.
Sandri from Argentina's the most believed in South American at 6/1.

And yes, I know I'm commenting on a comment on a post from 2005.Bergoglio was back in the pack in 2005, too, and finished strong, second. A bit older now...

Gillianren
2013-Feb-12, 05:49 PM
I'll be pleased if a non-European gets it. I am also gunning for whoever-it-is to take the name Pope Lando II. (The last Pope Lando was the last pope ever to take a pope name no one had used before.) However, my opinions are mostly abstract and based on medieval history and personal amusement, because I haven't really been Catholic since perhaps the early '90s. Maybe the late '80s.

Trebuchet
2013-Feb-12, 07:04 PM
I'm going to have to pick a nit on that. While John and Paul had certainly been used before, they had never been used in combination before John Paul i.

Gillianren
2013-Feb-12, 07:09 PM
True enough, but there wasn't even a variation on Lando--no Pope Lan and Pope Do.

NEOWatcher
2013-Feb-12, 07:22 PM
True enough, but there wasn't even a variation on Lando--no Pope Lan and Pope Do.
Or even pope Homer.


(leading to Doh, if you don't get it.)

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-12, 07:41 PM
Just to dig up a joke from 1978, how about John Paul George I?

Trebuchet
2013-Feb-12, 09:50 PM
Did Pope Lando run a floating city?

Swift
2013-Feb-12, 10:05 PM
(leading to Doh, if you don't get it.)
Tea, a drink with jam and bread

That will bring us back to
Do, oh, oh, oh


Or maybe that's not what you meant by "leading to doh"....:whistle:

Swift
2013-Feb-12, 10:07 PM
Just to dig up a joke from 1978, how about John Paul George I?
It does have a nice ring-o to it. :rimshot:

Solfe
2013-Feb-12, 10:26 PM
Oddly, the name Gregory and Plus have been used over a dozen times. I had no idea how close we have been to having a Pope G+. :)

On a more serious note, I think that picking a name hyphenated with Stephen would be a nice historical gesture. The second to pick that name passed away before before taking up the office. I also think that the person selected next should be from some place outside of Europe. Perhaps a youngish South American would be a game changer.

grapes
2013-Feb-13, 03:33 AM
Oddly, the name Gregory and Plus have been used over a dozen times. I had no idea how close we have been to having a Pope G+. :)
Pius, with an i, but you're right, that is close. :)

Bergoglio is 76, two years younger than Ratzinger was when he became pope. Same age as John XXIII was.

He is a conservative, but a Jesuit. He'd be the first Jesuit pope--they'd probably elect him just to make the Jesuits mad. I say that so this thread avoids politics.

Gillianren
2013-Feb-13, 05:12 AM
Did Pope Lando run a floating city?

Sadly, the book I read about him in just had the bare fact of his existence. But hey, he could have been Venetian!

Jens
2013-Feb-13, 07:14 AM
True enough, but there wasn't even a variation on Lando--no Pope Lan and Pope Do.

Then maybe the new pope could take the name can-do.

Jens
2013-Feb-13, 07:17 AM
On a more serious note, I think that picking a name hyphenated with Stephen would be a nice historical gesture. The second to pick that name passed away before before taking up the office.

Well if that's the historical precedent, then if I were elected pope I would certainly not choose that name. . .

And if you are going to ask if I believe in superstitions, the answer is, absolutely no, I don't believe in them. But they work even if you don't believe in them.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-13, 08:28 AM
Well if that's the historical precedent, then if I were elected pope I would certainly not choose that name. . .

And if you are going to ask if I believe in superstitions, the answer is, absolutely no, I don't believe in them. But they work even if you don't believe in them.
John Paul II picked that name when succeeding John Paul I who died after 33 days in office.
His papacy was one of the longest lasting.

Apparently the precedent is that by picking the name of a mayfly they get to live for a long time.

Solfe
2013-Feb-13, 10:33 AM
I just happen to like the name Stephen. Having a younger person who would be in office longer would be a nice "reset" on it.

DonM435
2013-Feb-13, 01:42 PM
Andrew Greeley, a priest who was also a social scientist and novelist, covered the last three conclaves and the politicking that went on in a couple of interesting books. Alas, he's in no condition to do so again.

Heid the Ba'
2013-Feb-13, 04:24 PM
No-one going with the Archbishop of Milan? The "S" at the start of his name is pronounced "Si". No really it is.

Heid the Ba'
2013-Feb-13, 04:25 PM
Wow, some names from the past in this thread: Mak, T-Man, Russ, Froguesque. That takes me back.

The Backroad Astronomer
2013-Feb-13, 04:34 PM
How about Pope Mak.
I wonder if any of the choices are guilty or innocent of anything.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-13, 06:31 PM
No-one going with the Archbishop of Milan? The "S" at the start of his name is pronounced "Si". No really it is.
At the bookies it's a close race, they've been rearranged a bit so Scola just took the lead with Turkson second and Ouellet down to third.

As for pronunciation, [andʒeloˈskɔːla] is the common version I've been able to find, no Si there. What's your source for that "Si"?

Chuck
2013-Feb-13, 07:25 PM
Maybe Ronco would pay him a promotional fee for using Pope Eel.

Tobin Dax
2013-Feb-13, 11:13 PM
At the bookies it's a close race, they've been rearranged a bit so Scola just took the lead with Turkson second and Ouellet down to third.

As for pronunciation, [andʒeloˈskɔːla] is the common version I've been able to find, no Si there. What's your source for that "Si"?

I believe that you missed the joke, Henrick.

KaiYeves
2013-Feb-13, 11:21 PM
Sadly, the book I read about him in just had the bare fact of his existence. But hey, he could have been Venetian!
I laughed harder at that than I should have.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-13, 11:44 PM
I believe that you missed the joke, Henrick.
If is was some sort of pun it's likely, I loathe those.

Almost as much as I loathe mispronouncing or misspelling names.

swampyankee
2013-Feb-14, 02:53 AM
I kind of like the idea of Pope Sixtus VI.

Jens
2013-Feb-14, 04:01 AM
I believe that you missed the joke, Henrick.

I'm afraid I did too. Because "si" means "if" in Latin? I'm not sure why that is a joke...

Solfe
2013-Feb-14, 04:09 AM
"Sicola" does sound vaguely like "Ricola". They have a funny commercial in the States with that "Ricola" being yodeled.

Jens
2013-Feb-14, 06:00 AM
"Sicola" does sound vaguely like "Ricola". They have a funny commercial in the States with that "Ricola" being yodeled.

I see. That probably explains why Henrik had trouble understanding it too, not living in the US and all. :) I'm vaguely aware of a kind of candy called Ricola.

Heid the Ba'
2013-Feb-14, 09:41 AM
As for pronunciation, [andʒeloˈskɔːla] is the common version I've been able to find, no Si there. What's your source for that "Si"?

My Milanaese business partner and his family, it may be a dialect thing. As for the joke: Things go better with Cardinal Scola.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-14, 09:45 AM
We have Ricola too.
Jokes based on names sounding like words, especially mispronounced names, are lost on me, as the main use I've seen of them is schoolyard bullying which I find inherently unfunny.

Solfe
2013-Feb-14, 11:51 AM
We have Ricola too.
Jokes based on names sounding like words, especially mispronounced names, are lost on me, as the main use I've seen of them is schoolyard bullying which I find inherently unfunny.

Try being named Fill. :)

DonM435
2013-Feb-15, 01:54 PM
Ex-Benedict on the menu?

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-15, 02:32 PM
Aaaand the thread is officially dead.

Random pun posts is the maggots on the corpse of a thread that died too long ago.

Heid the Ba'
2013-Feb-15, 02:43 PM
If people are going to make puns Vatican you do about it?

DonM435
2013-Feb-15, 04:43 PM
I regret breaking the camel's back.

Trebuchet
2013-Feb-15, 04:59 PM
I regret breaking the camel's back.

I regret breaking my own.

NEOWatcher
2013-Feb-15, 07:32 PM
So we went from pontiff to puntiff?

Arneb
2013-Feb-15, 07:50 PM
Or, in one case, form pontiff to pontification.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Feb-15, 08:05 PM
I rest my case.

Smudgeless
2013-Feb-15, 10:00 PM
I'm Curias to See how far this will go.

DonM435
2013-Feb-16, 06:09 PM
What this country needs in more pun control.

DonM435
2013-Feb-16, 06:11 PM
Hmmm, what are the odds?

I'm not sure why, but if your middle name is "Cardinal," it helps your chances.

Smudgeless
2013-Feb-16, 09:03 PM
What this country needs in more pun control.
Sound like a job for the NRA, the National Repartee Association.

DonM435
2013-Feb-24, 05:27 PM
Or, in one case, form pontiff to pontification.

You mean, it's not really a resignation, but more of an extended pontifvacation?

Moose
2013-Feb-24, 05:58 PM
You all need to be sent to the punitentiary.

Smudgeless
2013-Feb-26, 09:31 PM
Why, it isn't a cardinal sin?

DonM435
2013-Feb-27, 01:49 AM
Sadly, Stan Musial, the greatest Cardinal of them all, won't be around this time.

Chuck
2013-Feb-28, 04:15 PM
Being infallible, he plans to spend his retirement mountain climbing.

SeanF
2013-Mar-13, 08:11 PM
Anyway, I would imagine that the western hemisphere cardinal would get the nod, but not from North America, and they would speak Spanish. And be under 70, but just. So, Bergoglio, just based on that.
ATP, looks like you were about 8 years (and one election) ahead of your time. :)

grapes
2013-Mar-13, 08:27 PM
I wasn't advocating for him, just saw it coming. I can't believe he went off at 80/1 this time (and I didn't cover that action).




Currently it looks like Turkson from Ghana is in the lead at 3/1, Bergoglio's at 80/1.
Sandri from Argentina's the most believed in South American at 6/1.

And yes, I know I'm commenting on a comment on a post from 2005.Bergoglio was back in the pack in 2005, too, and finished strong, second. A bit older now...

I think some bodies were buried with Ratzinger, and he was elected on a compromise--the resignation might even have been pre-ordained, so to speak.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Mar-14, 09:26 AM
I think some bodies were buried with Ratzinger, and he was elected on a compromise--the resignation might even have been pre-ordained, so to speak.
Seeing that he's another very conservative pope, looks like they decided it should be business as always, just hidden by the dazzle of a lot of firsts.

DonM435
2013-Mar-14, 12:46 PM
They said he had a Master's degree in chemistry, which is interesting.

grapes
2013-Mar-14, 01:07 PM
They said he had a Master's degree in chemistry, which is interesting.
Wikipedia has two versions right now:

He studied and received a master's degree in chemistry at the University of Buenos Aires before he decided to pursue an ecclesiastical career.[6] According to another reference, he graduated from a technical school as a chemical technician and at the age of 21 decided to become a priest.[7]

And, the claim is the name is after St. Francis of Assisi, and not St. Francis Xavier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis

Buttercup
2013-Mar-14, 01:28 PM
I don't follow religious news much, but I had heard this man's name before (I think).

Did some research yesterday, out of curiosity.

Everything else aside, he does seem sincere and legit as regards being humble and helping the poor. I was shocked that a Pope would be elected who, while a cardinal, rode his bike or took a bus to work, lived in a tiny apartment, cooked his own meals, was regularly in the slums helping people. :o This morning he's personally gone to the hotel, picked up his luggage and paid the tab out of his own pocket. :o

I believe in giving credit where it's due, regardless of how I might feel about "things."

DonM435
2013-Mar-14, 02:04 PM
...
Everything else aside, he does seem sincere and legit as regards being humble and helping the poor. I was shocked that a Pope would be elected who, while a cardinal, rode his bike or took a bus to work, lived in a tiny apartment, cooked his own meals, was regularly in the slums helping people. :o This morning he's personally gone to the hotel, picked up his luggage and paid the tab out of his own pocket. :o
...


I'm told that, in the old days, when a cardinal got elected pope, the peasants used to celebrate by immediately pillaging his house, as he wouldn't be needing the stuff any more.

Guess they won't be doing that this time. Too far away and nothing to loot!

Ivan Viehoff
2013-Mar-14, 02:17 PM
Seeing that he's another very conservative pope, looks like they decided it should be business as always, just hidden by the dazzle of a lot of firsts.
I don't think there was any great soul-searching over the point, because the great majority of the present cardinals are conservatives. The situation can be attributed to deliberate policies of JPII, and doubtless has become somewhat self-perpetuating since.

swampyankee
2013-Mar-23, 04:27 PM
Since the Pope picks the cardinals, he pretty much controls the tenor of his successor, but not who is elected: Pope Benedict XVI could reasonably expect his successor would have similar views, but not who, among the Catholic Church's ordained clergy, would be elected.

So, no, it's not likely that Pope Francis will make any dramatic breaks with the policies of either Pope Benedict XVI or Pope John-Paul II. It's equally unlikely that he will not make some changes. One may be to try to close some of the gulf between the Catholic Church and the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches (especially the latter....)

Gillianren
2013-Mar-23, 05:00 PM
I've read that his treatment of pedophiles in his diocese was to turn them over to the civil authorities. So that's something.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Mar-23, 06:45 PM
That is a pretty large change compare to Benedict XVI.

Gillianren
2013-Mar-24, 06:46 AM
I was pleased to find that out, yes.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Mar-24, 01:08 PM
It's the largest PR issue the church has at the moment.
It's going to be interesting to see whether they're going to change the stance on contraception that's co-responsible for millions of people dying of AIDS.

Doodler
2013-Mar-25, 11:33 AM
It's going to be interesting to see whether they're going to change the stance on contraception that's co-responsible for millions of people dying of AIDS.

I don't see that happening. The idea of chastity outside of marriage is too well ingrained in their core beliefs. I doubt any of them is smug enough (or honest enough) to say it out loud, but I'll bet the thought that rattles around inside their cranium runs along the "They have it coming for being sinners" flavor to it. I have to admit, this new guy's definitely a breath of fresh air, but its only a strong breeze flowing over a steaming pile of obsolescent social ideology, the "new car smell" will wear off soon enough.

HenrikOlsen
2013-Mar-25, 12:11 PM
I have to admit, this new guy's definitely a breath of fresh air, but its only a strong breeze flowing over a steaming pile of obsolescent social ideology, the "new car smell" will wear off soon enough.
His personal stance on pedophile priests is the only new thing I've seen about him so far, apart from the long list of superficial firsts that doesn't involve core policy in any way.
And I haven't seen any indication yet that this is going to be made general policy for the church as a whole, though admittedly that will take a lot of time to change anyway.

Solfe
2013-Mar-25, 12:24 PM
I don't follow religious news much, but I had heard this man's name before (I think).

Did some research yesterday, out of curiosity.

Everything else aside, he does seem sincere and legit as regards being humble and helping the poor. I was shocked that a Pope would be elected who, while a cardinal, rode his bike or took a bus to work, lived in a tiny apartment, cooked his own meals, was regularly in the slums helping people. :o This morning he's personally gone to the hotel, picked up his luggage and paid the tab out of his own pocket. :o

I believe in giving credit where it's due, regardless of how I might feel about "things."

He apparently called to cancel his paper delivery himself. (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Pope-Francis-personally-calls-Buenos-Aires-kiosk-to-cancel-newspaper-subscription-199749801.html)

Swift
2013-Mar-25, 12:56 PM
It's the largest PR issue the church has at the moment.
It's going to be interesting to see whether they're going to change the stance on contraception that's co-responsible for millions of people dying of AIDS.
Comments like this are getting entirely too close to the no politics and religious restrictions we have on CQ. Please be more careful or we will close this thread.

Gillianren
2013-Mar-25, 05:12 PM
He seems inclined to putting a lot more focus on helping the poor than getting the Church involved in politics, and I approve of that.