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BigDon
2017-Oct-28, 10:32 PM
From this news story about a sports team's 757

http://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-city-thunders-plane-nose-crushed-bird-collision/story?id=50784314

Where's the "grease stain"? A bird big enough to do that leaves at least a grease mark, if not actual blood stains and feathers.

I've seen dozens of bird strikes and pictures of a lot more. (And some I wish I hadn't seen!)

This doesn't look like one to me.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-28, 11:10 PM
The technical term for the "grease stain" is snarge. There's a lab at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History that does snarge DNA testing.

But unless someone has already been up there with the paper towels, the plastic bag and the Fedex envelope, I agree that doesn't look a bird strike. Someone is maybe missing a drone.

Grant Hutchison

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-28, 11:29 PM
Space junk deorbiting?

slang
2017-Oct-28, 11:50 PM
New species to me, the Apparent Bird.

CJSF
2017-Oct-28, 11:54 PM
This wasn't noticed in flight? Only upon landing? Maybe it happened before liftoff and no one checked? Or after landing with a ground object?

CJSF

01101001
2017-Oct-29, 12:01 AM
Hmm... I just saw a news story about Superman being treated at Metropolis General Hospital. Rumors are that he had been experiencing symptoms of a concussion.

BigDon
2017-Oct-29, 02:03 AM
This wasn't noticed in flight? Only upon landing? Maybe it happened before liftoff and no one checked? Or after landing with a ground object?

CJSF

There ya go!

Somebody towed it into something and then hoped nobody noticed until later.

slang
2017-Oct-29, 09:27 AM
Perhaps they finally encountered a frozen chicken carcass.

CJSF
2017-Oct-29, 10:33 AM
Is it possible, if they were going fast enough and the bird was small enough, that the bird... debris... was vaporized or atomized (?) enough be invisible in the photos?

CJSF

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 12:11 PM
This wasn't noticed in flight? Only upon landing? Maybe it happened before liftoff and no one checked? Or after landing with a ground object?Seems like the sort of thing you'd notice in flight, if you were up the front, steering the thing.
And there's a thing called a "walk round" that pilots are supposed to do before they accept the aeroplane (though I get the impression some commercial pilots sometimes don't do it), so something like that would have been noticed before they ever started taxiing for take-off.

Grant Hutchison

Ken G
2017-Oct-29, 01:14 PM
There's a reason the noses are not shaped that way-- I'm sure the pilots knew every second they were flying with that thing! But apparently the nose is built kind of like the cars in those crash-test dummy demonstrations-- it's designed to implode when hit, in some sense absorbing the blow.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3070051/Incredible-photos-reveal-aircraft-s-nose-COLLAPSED-bird-flew-Turkish-Airlines-plane-carrying-125-passengers.html
The Turkish plane does show the "snarge," but otherwise the level of damage looks similar so it didn't need to be a pterodactyl.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 02:00 PM
By now everybody's spotted the difference between this dent and the others that have been posted, right?

schlaugh
2017-Oct-29, 02:32 PM
Apparently ice thawing cycles can weaken the composite and air pressure does the rest. Interesting chain of comments below from commercial pilots.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758295


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Spacedude
2017-Oct-29, 02:35 PM
The surface of the nose/dent appears wet, maybe during or after impact the plane flew through rain and power washed out the remains?

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 02:37 PM
Notice the "starring" on the other impacts, the ones documented as being inflight, i.e., high speed. The one in question looks to have been shoved in, not rammed in. Additionally, as pointed out, no bird guts.

Tarmac boo-boo.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 03:06 PM
There ya go!

Somebody towed it into something and then hoped nobody noticed until later.So what's our hypothesis, here?
That a tow vehicle driver went under something just a little higher than the vehicle itself, and didn't notice until there was a bit a crunch from the aircraft behind? And then decided to just not mention it? And then the pilot didn't notice on the walkround and took off with a dent in the nose?
Or that someone clipped this aircraft while towing another one, and decided not to mention it, and the aforementioned pilot missed the monster dent on the walk-round?
Or are we suggesting the pilots taxied into an obstacle on their way to the gates, after landing, but managed to extricate themselves without anyone on board or in the tower noticing?

Or are we just invoking a bit of damage to the radome that led to its later collapse under flight stresses?

Grant Hutchison

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 03:19 PM
No radiating fractures on the skin. That's a good sign of a low-speed impact, I believe.

DaveC426913
2017-Oct-29, 03:31 PM
No radiating fractures on the skin. That's a good sign of a low-speed impact, I believe.
Which would make sense if the impact occurred at the relatively low speeds of descent.


Delta spokeswoman Elizabeth Wolf told NPR that although crews are still investigating, the "something" was likely a bird, a common culprit in midair collisions. She added the plane "sustained damage to its nose cone while on descent into Chicago."
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/10/28/560586798/oklahoma-city-thunder-plane-lands-with-surprise-damage-shaken-athletes

I feel a bit foolish for hearing "flying at 30,000 feet" and simply taking it for granted that that's the altitude at which the collision occurred.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 03:36 PM
No radiating fractures on the skin. That's a good sign of a low-speed impact, I believe.But in that scenario, how?
Even in the absence of a pilot walk-round (and I've heard it at least suggested that some sort of negligence in that regard has contributed to at least one civil aviation disaster), how does a dent that size go unnoticed by ground staff, tower staff, terminal staff and boarding passengers?

Grant Hutchison

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 03:47 PM
Which would make sense if the impact occurred at the relatively low speeds of descent.Still talking about 130 knots or more. I think Don and Noisy Rhysling are invoking a walking-speed collision.


I feel a bit foolish for hearing "flying at 30,000 feet" and simply taking it for granted that that's the altitude at which the collision occurred.Yeah, never believe anything a passenger says about what happened to an aeroplane they were travelling on.

That said, the highest confirmed bird-strike was at 37,000 ft - a Rüppell's vulture ingested over Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire, in 1973. (And there have been some surprisingly high-level fish-strikes, too.)

Grant Hutchison

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 04:05 PM
No bird guts. I know what a Canada goose looks like after it hits a windshield at 100+ mph.

Extravoice
2017-Oct-29, 04:06 PM
This report says the damage happened during descent:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4b04a07d

swampyankee
2017-Oct-29, 04:18 PM
I'd expect bits & pieces of bird. (eta) except that the 200+ km/h rain would probably blast most of the bits off.

I'd also expect that the pilots, cabin crew, and self-loading cargo would hear a really loud "bang!" followed by the announcement that there are no problems, but there will be a precautionary landing. There will also be a lot of aerodynamic noise.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 04:22 PM
I'd expect bits & pieces of bird.

I'd also expect that the pilots, cabin crew, and self-loading cargo would hear a really loud "bang!" followed by the announcement that there are no problems, but there will be a precautionary landing. There will also be a lot of aerodynamic noise.

And then the automatic pilot inflates?

swampyankee
2017-Oct-29, 04:34 PM
And then the automatic pilot inflates?

And a line forms up to slap the hysterical passenger?

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 04:42 PM
And we're off to the White Zone.

BigDon
2017-Oct-29, 06:22 PM
So what's our hypothesis, here?
That a tow vehicle driver went under something just a little higher than the vehicle itself, and didn't notice until there was a bit a crunch from the aircraft behind? And then decided to just not mention it? And then the pilot didn't notice on the walkround and took off with a dent in the nose?
Or that someone clipped this aircraft while towing another one, and decided not to mention it, and the aforementioned pilot missed the monster dent on the walk-round?
Or are we suggesting the pilots taxied into an obstacle on their way to the gates, after landing, but managed to extricate themselves without anyone on board or in the tower noticing?

Or are we just invoking a bit of damage to the radome that led to its later collapse under flight stresses?

Grant Hutchison

I'm saying not a bird, I guess. I get over cynical too often lately.

From the comments section in the link Extravoice supplied us this the answer I liked the best.


Many years ago, a 737 descending in to Alor Sitar sustained similiar damage. It was found that a sealant had been used to keep rain water out of the radome. An unexpected consequence was air excaped the radome area on climb but could not enter the area on descent resulting in an implosion of the radome.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 06:22 PM
This report says the damage happened during descent:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4b04a07dYes, that's what it says in Don's original link in the OP:
Delta Airlines later said the charter plane which had flown the team from Minneapolis to Chicago apparently collided with a bird early Saturday as it was landing.
Grant Hutchison

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 06:34 PM
I'm saying not a bird, I guess. I get over cynical too often lately.I presume the radial tearing we see in other pictures is not primarily about the nature of the impact, but about the energy. And then about the extent to which the bent fuselage is subsequently worked back and forth by airflow. And of course the size of the dent doesn't remotely have to reflect the size of the initial damage that caused it.
So a small bird/drone or a spontaneous buckle failure (low energy) late in the flight (limiited working) seem like they wouldn't necessarily cause radial tears.
I guess I'm just having difficulty imagining how this degree of damage could have escaped all notice before take-off, or have been sustained after landing without anyone noticing.

Grant Hutchison

BigDon
2017-Oct-29, 06:55 PM
I'd expect bits & pieces of bird. (eta) except that the 200+ km/h rain would probably blast most of the bits off.

I'd also expect that the pilots, cabin crew, and self-loading cargo would hear a really loud "bang!" followed by the announcement that there are no problems, but there will be a precautionary landing. There will also be a lot of aerodynamic noise.

Swampy, I was in a F-14 squadron ground crew. "Snarge" doesn't come off with water. Navy issue foaming aircraft cleaner, which can take road tar off a chrome bumper, a dozen course rags and an unhappy plane captain are the only way you're seeing clean paint again.

And especially at those slow speeds. Seriously, that's really slow. Snarge stains can go trans-sonic and still stick to the aircraft. I've seen Tomcats that have flown so extremely close to the edge of the envelope they literally burned the paint off of the belly panels, but they couldn't shake off the grease stains of a bird strike. Think about it. If you could wash airplanes like that nobody would wash them on the ground.

On cruise missile intercepts, Tomcats that are stationed at low altitude, but out of position when the attack occurs, will accelerate to 800 to 900 knots at less than a 100 feet (30 meters) off of the ocean to get into position. On two occasions some of my birds broke mach less than 30 feet off of the water. That friction burns your belly paint black and bubbly.

And that was just in war games.

BigDon
2017-Oct-29, 07:20 PM
But in that scenario, how?
Even in the absence of a pilot walk-round (and I've heard it at least suggested that some sort of negligence in that regard has contributed to at least one civil aviation disaster), how does a dent that size go unnoticed by ground staff, tower staff, terminal staff and boarding passengers?

Grant Hutchison

Maybe not in this case but in cases were such DID occur....

It was night. Raining. And anywhere north of Iowa, windy and just above freezing.

It's completely unexpected and way up in the air, requiring you to look up into the rain. I could go on. The conditions are the complete opposite of an operating theatre.

I was, then had to ride herd on, flight line watch standers Doc. Every four days for three years, not counting leave or convalescing. It's amazing what people with a whole lot at stake with regard to their well being can overlook in such conditions.

THAT'S how this gets missed.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 07:36 PM
Maybe not in this case but in cases were such DID occur....

It was night. Raining. And anywhere north of Iowa, windy and just above freezing.

It's completely unexpected and way up in the air, requiring you to look up into the rain. I could go on. The conditions are the complete opposite of an operating theatre.

I was, then had to ride herd on, flight line watch standers Doc. Every four days for three years, not counting leave or convalescing. It's amazing what people with a whole lot at stake with regard to their well being can overlook in such conditions.

THAT'S how this gets missed.Sure thing, no argument there.
And if everyone piled aboard this aeroplane in a poorly lit corner of a stormy airfield at night, then maybe that's what happened.
But if it was parked on a flood-lit stand and being boarded via a cosy jetbridge with big windows that are level with the nose (as seems to have been the case when the disembarking passengers took their pictures at the end of their journey), maybe not so likely.

Grant Hutchison

Extravoice
2017-Oct-29, 08:30 PM
Can I presume that someone more competent than a passenger with a cell-phone camera is looking into the incident?
I've heard that the NTSB is pretty good at this sort of thing. ;)

BigDon
2017-Oct-29, 09:19 PM
Can I presume that someone more competent than a passenger with a cell-phone camera is looking into the incident?
I've heard that the NTSB is pretty good at this sort of thing. ;)

Well yeah!

This way we have our answers locked in when the NTSB finally comes out with the results.

That's how you win the internet!

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 09:38 PM
Can I presume that someone more competent than a passenger with a cell-phone camera is looking into the incident?
I've heard that the NTSB is pretty good at this sort of thing. ;)But the passenger has already asked NASA, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye to help!
Who else is needed?

Grant Hutchison

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 09:44 PM
But the passenger has already asked NASA, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye to help!
Who else is needed?

Grant Hutchison
Mitchell and Webb.

Hornblower
2017-Oct-29, 10:04 PM
Let us remember that so far we have only sketchy "reports" on various websites. If the pilots heard or felt a thud, they could report the altitude and airspeed, but if so it has not been passed on to the public. There are plenty impatient journalists seeking an answer immediately, while the NTSB investigators will take their time and do it right rather than trying to do it yesterday. If it is possible that the nose cone could have inploded without hitting a bird, they surely will find out.

As a child I was riding in a car when we hit a sparrow-sized bird at around 50 mph. There was definitely snarge, consisting of blood, other goop and a few feathers sticking to the windshield.

SkepticJ
2017-Oct-29, 10:59 PM
Swampy, I was in a F-14 squadron ground crew. "Snarge" doesn't come off with water. Navy issue foaming aircraft cleaner, which can take road tar off a chrome bumper, a dozen course rags and an unhappy plane captain are the only way you're seeing clean paint again.

Did you try Bon Ami?

swampyankee
2017-Oct-29, 11:00 PM
Yeah, never believe anything a passenger says about what happened to an aeroplane they were travelling on.


Grant Hutchison

That's actually quite good advice. I think you could rely on self-loading cargo noticing something major, like the wing fell off, but not whether that piece on the wing is supposed to move up and down.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-29, 11:01 PM
Did you try Bon Ami?You try an unofficial cleanser on a multi-million dollar aircraft. :doh:

If you do it's important you don't get caught. :whistle:

slang
2017-Oct-29, 11:34 PM
From the comments section in the link Extravoice supplied us this the answer I liked the best.
[...]An unexpected consequence was air excaped the radome area on climb but could not enter the area on descent resulting in an implosion of the radome.


Ah great! I was wondering if the radome was part of the pressured body or not, or if it could be somehow depressurized without air flowing back in on descent. Didn't think of sealant though. At the very least it's a good example why damage like this without bird traces does not mean it must have happened on the ground.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-29, 11:56 PM
Yeah, never believe anything a passenger says about what happened to an aeroplane they were travelling on.

Grant Hutchison
That's actually quite good advice.Well. Um. Thanks. I had actually intended it to be quite good advice, but it's always good to have confirmation. :)
Even a superficial reading of the passenger tweets coming out of this incident reveals a certain amount of cluelessness, and the tweets do seem to be the original source for the story that this event occurred at 30,000ft. Whereas an airline spokesperson is the source for the story that it occurred during approach for landing.

Grant Hutchison

BigDon
2017-Oct-30, 12:24 AM
You try an unofficial cleanser on a multi-million dollar aircraft. :doh:

If you do it's important you don't get caught. :whistle:

Beat me to it Chief.

While I'm sure Bon Ami would work, and work well, one, snarge removal wasn't in my job description. I just got to laugh at the people who's job it was. Two, unauthorized solvents, paints and cleaning products are a no-no due to unknown combustion products in case of a cockpit or other fire. The approved stuff demonstrates less toxic smokes than products that don't pass muster. That's less toxic, which isn't nontoxic. The other biggie is unauthorized solvents coming into contact with sensors and probes made of relatively exotic substances.

For instance, nobody would have to tell you you just got oil or hydrocarbons on that disk of pure, refined zirconium. You'd be the first person to know.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-30, 12:28 AM
Beat me to it Chief.

While I'm sure Bon Ami would work, and work well, one, snarge removal wasn't in my job description. I just got to laugh at the people who's job it was. Two, unauthorized solvents, paints and cleaning products are a no-no due to unknown combustion products in case of a cockpit or other fire. The approved stuff demonstrates less toxic smokes than products that don't pass muster. That's less toxic, which isn't nontoxic. The other biggie is unauthorized solvents coming into contact with sensors and probes made of relatively exotic substances.

For instance, nobody would have to tell you you just got oil or hydrocarbons on that disk of pure, refined zirconium. You'd be the first person to know.

AIMD gonna love ya for that ... stuff.

BigDon
2017-Oct-30, 12:32 AM
Ah great! I was wondering if the radome was part of the pressured body or not, or if it could be somehow depressurized without air flowing back in on descent. Didn't think of sealant though. At the very least it's a good example why damage like this without bird traces does not mean it must have happened on the ground.

Alright, everybody stop replying while I'm typing! I have to eat dinner pretty soon!

(:))

If the bottom drain tube was plugged with dirt or paint chips, that could have been as simple as spraying light oil on the rubber seals as they closed the radome. You do that went it's raining.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-30, 12:40 AM
We got mid-rats laid out on the mess deck.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-30, 12:49 AM
The other biggie is unauthorized solvents coming into contact with sensors and probes made of relatively exotic substances.Or relatively unexotic substances. Back in the day, one of our theatre (OR) suites received a very expensive shipment of new anaesthetic monitoring equipment. The nurse in charge decided to decontaminate these nasty new monitors before they got into the nice clean operating theatres, so wiped them down with an antibacterial surface cleanser. The following day, all the monitor screens were opaque. Rendering them unsatisfactory as, you know, actual monitors. (We could still hear them beeping, though.)

Grant Hutchison

BigDon
2017-Oct-30, 12:50 AM
Chief, you may have more idea than most what squadron sailors thought of AIMD sailors.

Aviation Intermediate Maintenance Depot.

This is where you send the tech savvy who can't handle flightdeck work for one reason of the other. This is also where the screw up, move up crowd ends up settling.

A very common phrase from my shop Chief was "God doesn't give everybody the Grace to be flightdeck sailors, so you can't hold it against them if they don't work out."

Hey Chief, what was the Snipe equivalent of AIMD, if you don't mind me asking? Just "depot"?

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-30, 12:54 AM
Chief, you may have more idea than most what squadron sailors thought of AIMD sailors.

Aviation Intermediate Maintenance Depot.

This is where you send the tech savvy who can't handle flightdeck work for one reason of the other. This is also where the screw up, move up crowd ends up settling.

A very common phrase from my shop Chief was "God doesn't give everybody the Grace to be flightdeck sailors, so you can't hold it against them if they don't work out."

Hey Chief, what was the Snipe equivalent of AIMD, if you don't mind me asking? Just "depot"?

We chained them up on the check level and fed them deck apes. :whistle:

Official version is "You WILL work out, or get out." Just keep them away from touchy equipment. There's always work for those who can't tell which end of a paint chipper to hang onto.

swampyankee
2017-Oct-30, 04:20 PM
But the passenger has already asked NASA, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye to help!
Who else is needed?

Grant Hutchison

NTSB? FAA? Boeing?

swampyankee
2017-Oct-30, 04:25 PM
Beat me to it Chief.

While I'm sure Bon Ami would work, and work well, one, snarge removal wasn't in my job description. I just got to laugh at the people who's job it was. Two, unauthorized solvents, paints and cleaning products are a no-no due to unknown combustion products in case of a cockpit or other fire. The approved stuff demonstrates less toxic smokes than products that don't pass muster. That's less toxic, which isn't nontoxic. The other biggie is unauthorized solvents coming into contact with sensors and probes made of relatively exotic substances.

For instance, nobody would have to tell you you just got oil or hydrocarbons on that disk of pure, refined zirconium. You'd be the first person to know.

They had to stop using crushed walnut shells -- which were once the normal medium -- for cleaning jet engine compressors as they would clog the cooling passages to the vanes and blades in the hot end.

When I was at Lycoming, we were still trying to get people to stop well after they had been told "Don't do that!" One problem seems to have actually been the people in field service.....

Shaula
2017-Oct-30, 04:41 PM
There ya go!
Somebody towed it into something and then hoped nobody noticed until later.
I don't see a "No Step" on it, so I'd check the middle of that dent for a boot print. Never underestimate the ingenuity of ground crew.

grant hutchison
2017-Oct-30, 07:02 PM
But the passenger has already asked NASA, Neil deGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye to help!
Who else is needed?

Grant Hutchison
NTSB? FAA? Boeing?Um. Well, yeah.

Grant Hutchison

SkepticJ
2017-Oct-31, 08:02 PM
You try an unofficial cleanser on a multi-million dollar aircraft. :doh:

If you do it's important you don't get caught. :whistle:

"That's a joke, son! You missed it! Flew right by ya!"-Foghorn Leghorn

publiusr
2017-Oct-31, 08:22 PM
Apparently ice thawing cycles can weaken the composite and air pressure does the rest. Interesting chain of comments below from commercial pilots.

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758295


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The superguppy photos are priceless.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Oct-31, 10:02 PM
The superguppy photos are priceless.
"Uh, let's not do that again."

BigDon
2017-Nov-01, 02:03 PM
Well, that's that then.

My brother, the one who works for NASA, says he saw high definition pictures of the radome of this aircraft. All the ones we're looking at are over-exposed he says. According to him there is obvious, pink blood in the deeper cracks and gathered at the chin of the nose cone.

I don't win the internet. (Sad trombone sound.)

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Nov-01, 04:12 PM
Well, that's that then.

My brother, the one who works for NASA, says he saw high definition pictures of the radome of this aircraft. All the ones we're looking at are over-exposed he says. According to him there is obvious, pink blood in the deeper cracks and gathered at the chin of the nose cone.

I don't win the internet. (Sad trombone sound.)
Did your brother just give us the bird?

BigDon
2017-Nov-01, 09:40 PM
Did your brother just give us the bird?

On a platter.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Nov-01, 10:11 PM
On a platter.

I hope it's a teratorn.

pzkpfw
2017-Nov-01, 10:47 PM
Or tartare?

BigDon
2017-Nov-01, 11:59 PM
Or tartare?

More like an aspic...

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Nov-02, 12:03 AM
More like an aspic...

PLEASE, no ... Oh, you said aspic. My bad.

BigDon
2017-Nov-02, 12:14 AM
Chief, in High School I did so well that by my senior year I had all the required classes for graduation out of the way by my junior year, so my senior year I had nothing but electives.

One of the elective classes I took was Home Ec. Forty students in the class and thirty-seven of them were female.

I've made aspic three times in my life. To this day I don't see how it became a foodstuff. I even made it right and it didn't help.

I'd sooner eat snarge.

Noisy Rhysling
2017-Nov-02, 12:16 AM
Chief, in High School I did so well that by my senior year I had all the required classes for graduation out of the way by my junior year, so my senior year I had nothing but electives.

One of the elective classes I took was Home Ec. Forty students in the class and thirty-seven of them were female.

I've made aspic three times in my life. To this day I don't see how it became a foodstuff. I even made it right and it didn't help.

I'd sooner eat snarge.

I coasted too. Wanted typing class, but the one semester class was full, so I opted for the full year class. Thirty-nine girls, and me. Poor me had need of lots of help, especially the type that wrapped around my neck.

slang
2017-Nov-02, 06:34 AM
Stop this off-topic nonsense, this is not OTB. Infractions issued.

Folks, we understand that a joke sometimes must be made. And even that sometimes an off topic post may slip by. But a long string of jokes has no place in the S&T forum, and sea stories or bragging about school performances or ones love life in a thread about bird hits is beyond ridiculous. Stay on topic, please, and save the rest for OTB and/or Fun&Games