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View Full Version : Art Bell - Debunking 9/11 Conspiracists (Hoaxists)



patrioticamerican
2005-Mar-06, 07:15 AM
Art Bell's program tonight is about at least some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories (mass pyschosis?) and the Popular Mechanics article debunking them. Should be a good listen!

Wolverine
2005-Mar-06, 10:48 AM
It was a fun listen. Chertoff did an ok job handling most of the issues discussed. I was rather delightfully surprised by Art Bell's outspoken skepticism & criticisms of the far-fetched claims. The conspiracists are none too pleased about the program, though -- I got a kick out of the negative reactions from several callers as well as the message Art read on the air from a listener proclaiming Art had "lost all credibility" by debunking the errant claims, and asserting Bell & Chertoff to be liars (with "liars!" repeated nine times to close the correspondence).

Of course, no amount of contrary evidence or refutations of incorrect claims will change the outlook of those whose minds are made up (much like the Apollo HBers or others). Some have gone so far as to allege that Coast to Coast is "in" on the "conspiracy." (http://www.rense.com/general63/bellchert.htm) :roll:

patrioticamerican
2005-Mar-06, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the info. I totally agree, was very pleasantly surprised by Art's adamant opinion (and anger) that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are utter hogwash, with absolutely nothing to back up the worst of them - that our government was responsible for the execution of the attacks. There's no doubt in my mind that the common theme uniting the pseudo-scientific propagaters of this atrocious, hateful nonsense and their gullible "believers" is their maniacal utter comtempt and hatred for George W. Bush and his administration. What happened on 9/11 is obvious to even the most casual observer, that is if they can think clearly and don't have a serious political axe to grind.

Was really looking foward to hearing the "wing nuts" (Art's term) calls, but unfortunately was tired and fell asleep during one of the too numerous commercials. Bell feels so strongly about the subject that hopefully it'll be replayed in the upcoming months (no subscription here). Would be nice to read a transcript.

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-06, 06:52 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that the common theme uniting the pseudo-scientific propagaters of this atrocious, hateful nonsense and their gullible "believers" is their maniacal utter comtempt and hatred for George W. Bush and his administration.
I don't mean to start a political debate, but I just want to point out that antigovernment wackos have been around for a long time, so you shouldn't assume that it's specifically Bush they hate. Some people tried to pin murders on Clinton, too. I suspect that the most fervent proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories would still be promoting them even if someone else had been president at the time. To the conspiracy theorist, all authority is evil.

Kesh
2005-Mar-06, 09:23 PM
I agree with Tomba. It's not necessarily Bush they hate (though I'm sure some feel that way). These people hate The Government. For many of them, it's not even the US government... it's some vague, shadowy Secret Government that really runs the USA.

Many of the folks who post such theories don't believe that Bush is anything more than a sock puppet for The Powers That Be... same as every other President for X years.

ktesibios
2005-Mar-06, 10:16 PM
CTs alleging that President Roosevelt deliberately allowed the Pearl Harbor attack to happen are still popular among conspiracists/syndromists. It seems unlikely, nearly sixty years after his death, that these are motivated by personal animus or opposition to New Deal policies.

It seems to me that a sort of anti-conformist conformism is at work- basically, the CT believer considers any widely-held explanation of an important historical event is by definition false.

What changes from adminsitration to administration is just which faction anyone who debunks a pet CT will be accused of shilling for.

:roll:

Gillianren
2005-Mar-07, 12:51 AM
I like the assumption that one cousin is covering up for the other. frankly, if my cousin Donavan were Secretary of Homeland Security . . . well, we'd have bigger problems, but anyway . . . and I were writing a report about something regarding homeland security, it'd probably take him six months to realize that I actually was the Edith Nelson who's his cousin.

farmerjumperdon
2005-Mar-08, 02:40 PM
I loathe politics as usual, and I despise Bush for being so good at it. None of it has anything to do with being a conspiracy theorist, though I do believe that politicians these days are packaged and sold like a can of peas by power brokers that win no matter what happens in the election (at least on anything above the city and county level).

A bit off the path, but someone made a connection between not liking Bush and being a CT, and just wanted to set the record straight that not all those opposing Bush are incapable of critical thinking.

patrioticamerican
2005-Mar-13, 05:21 PM
In no way did I imply that all those that oppose the Bush administration policies are incapable of critical thinking, just those that blindly accept with the flimsiest of so-called evidence the worst of the 9/11 CTs, that the US government executed the 9/11 attacks. If Clinton had been president on 9/11, I don't think that particular CT would have anywhere near the foothold and following that it seems to have now, even if he too had elected to depose Saddam Hussein, although I do agree that it would still exist in the much more fringe (in numbers) "the government is always evil and never believe a word it says" group. Obviously I believe that the overwhelming majority of the "Bush did it" crowd is driven by hatred for Bush, and when hatred is the prime motivater it definitely puts a severe restriction on critical thinking.

Getting back to Art Bell, he posted a letter to his listeners explaining why he believes that CT, as well as at least most of the others, are pure bunk.

ART BELL:
AN OPEN LETTER TO MY LISTENERS

Just so there is no confusion about my position, let me please state for the record, I DO NOT believe that President Bush ordered or authorized the 9-11 attack as was posted on the Rense site 9-17-04 (Thomas Buyea). This was only one of many such articles found on that site. Yes, we do have a free press and it is constitutional to write such trash. It is also my right to say that I think those who are making such charges are repulsive, and publishing such articles is yellow journalism. The Rense site has been attacking me for several years and I have never fired back because frankly what they have chosen to say about me is not important, however what they charge about President Bush and America is damaging to all of us. Much as I think we must always be alert to what our Government does, I also feel we must be alert to ** when we see it. If there were any proof that our President ordered the murder of our citizens, we would be in the middle of impeachment hearings or worse. Make no mistake, that IS what we are talking about here. There may be some questions in all the confusion of what happened on 9-11, however none of it adds up to we did this to our own people. It is not possible to be just a little pregnant on this issue. I will not be part of the “Blame America First Crowd.

I have examined all the so-called evidence offered by those who make claims ranging from bombs to missiles and much more. I find no "smoking gun". That said, Coast-to-Coast AM has had SEVERAL guests that have talked about these claims WITHOUT CHALLENGE. The moment ONE Guest was aired with an opposing view the "wing nut" crowd started yelling unfair. How can a group of people who claim to be open minded possibly take such a closed minded view? Perhaps they are not as open minded as they claim. Worse yet, they call names and make threats. One post- 9-11 effect is clear, we are a much less civil society.

I believe much of what is being charged is political, not criminal. The "wing nuts" of course will not admit this, but scratch a little deeper and you will almost always find a Bush hater. I am not a Bush fan for reasons that have nothing to do with 9-11. I am also not a Bush basher. I voted for John Kerry because he made a promise to not put nuclear waste in my backyard. Most politics are local and was in my case. I am for the most part neutral with regard to President Bush. I am a Libertarian who believes in personal responsibility and less Government in our lives.

Now being almost 60 years old, perhaps I am an old fashioned American who believes that America is still the best country in the world. I come to this view having seen much of the rest of it. America is not perfect, but it is the best. Maybe some of our tax money would be well spent by giving our youth a round trip ticket to the country of their choice; I am guessing most would hurry back with a much improved world view.

Art Bell

Well said Art!

peter eldergill
2005-Mar-14, 12:56 AM
About the pearl harbour thing (well, not specifically, but same war)

is it true that Churchill allowed the Germans to bomb England (Birmingham?) in order to hide the fact that the Brits had cracked Enigma, thus saving countless lives in the long run?

Given that, is it impossible for the pearl harbour thing to be true as well? The thing I've hearg about that is it was an excuse for the US to enter the war in the first place. Why would the US have needed an excuse.?

I think I just answered my own question... :oops: (about Pearl Harbour)

Later

Pete

captain swoop
2005-Mar-14, 01:12 PM
About the pearl harbour thing (well, not specifically, but same war)

is it true that Churchill allowed the Germans to bomb England (Birmingham?) in order to hide the fact that the Brits had cracked Enigma, thus saving countless lives in the long run?


Pete

This is as much Bunk as the 9/11 rubbish. It was Coventry not Birmingham, there was no Enigma intel on the raid. It was important because it was one of the 'beam' raids. It used a radio navigation system called 'Knickebein' composed of overlapping radio 'beams' that directed the German bombers to the target. British Scientific Intelligence (Under R V Jones) worked the system out and In order to identify the frequencies and directions of these beams a unit was set up in October 1940 at Boscombe called the Wireless Intelligence Development Unit as a part of 109 Squadron. By broadcasting conflicting signals the German aircraft saw 'bent' beams.

109 Squadron went on to develop and use a British version of the system called 'Oboe'

peter eldergill
2005-Mar-14, 02:12 PM
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I don't even know where I heard that from in the first place. Maybe it was a documentary on Fox :roll:

Later

Pete

collegeguy
2005-Mar-14, 04:20 PM
Some people can't help taking the conspiracy theories as facts. Here is an example, this guy actually wrote an english term paper based on it:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=241715

Gillianren
2005-Mar-14, 11:21 PM
I've got a book called Unsolved Mysteries of American History (which I highly recommend for history nerds, and no, it's not at all woo-woo; these are all real mysteries), and it covers the alleged FDR letting Pearl Harbor get bombed thing. he uses what I consider the best of all refutations--if you want to go to war, isn't it better to have your fleet above the ocean rather than sunk to the bottom of it?

jfribrg
2005-Mar-15, 09:59 PM
I've got a book called Unsolved Mysteries of American History (which I highly recommend for history nerds, and no, it's not at all woo-woo; these are all real mysteries), and it covers the alleged FDR letting Pearl Harbor get bombed thing. he uses what I consider the best of all refutations--if you want to go to war, isn't it better to have your fleet above the ocean rather than sunk to the bottom of it?

I was still -21 years old at the time, so I don't remember what it was like. From what I can gather, it was generally accepted that because of the US led embargos, war between Japan and the US was inevitable, although some groups were still trying to avoid it with an Americanized version of appeasement. The question was where and when it would start. I don't think that FDR had to "allow" Pearl harbor to happen. Only a miracle could have prevented it, and he knew that at the time. Of course, these types of "for the sake of argument" types of arguments dont really convince anyone anyway, but I thought I'd say it nonetheless.

collegeguy
2005-Mar-16, 01:44 AM
Could anyone tell me of a website showing the evidence against the 9/11 conspiracy? I have searched and all I have found are sites that support the nonsense.

publiusr
2005-Mar-16, 06:38 PM
This was Art's finest hour. I don't always agree with him, and some of his guests make the Unabomber look like a technocrat--but I thank him for this program. There was one time the Skeptics got it wrong, when Art was all but accused of having a (however passive) role in the Heavens Gate mass suicide. He and Streiber actually did a ggod job at being skeptics at uncovering a UFO/Comet photo hoax. The Comet itself was seen as a sign by the actual cultists and Art got slimed for no reason. His family has had a lot of problems, and there is always the militia nuts goading him. He like stories of the unusual. He is tto much the technophobe for my taste.

As far as Strieber is concerned--well---his "life story" was put on film in the movie Communion, where he was played by... Christopher Walken.

That should tell you something right there.

He gave us the tedious Goth culture with The Hunger (right when I thought vampire movies were passe) and showed us homeless-eating werewolves in Wolfen.

No wonder little girls cut themselves.

collegeguy
2005-Mar-25, 02:33 AM
I've got some relatives who won't shut up about the 9/11 conspiracy theory. Could someone please provide me with a link that contains debunking of that theory. I have searched but found none.

Here are the sites my relatives have visited:

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Main

http://www.911inplanesite.com/

collegeguy
2005-Mar-25, 04:00 PM
By the way, Does anyone know who runs Popular mechanics? I have heard people who support the conspiracy theories call them: "right wing supporters"

tbm
2005-Mar-27, 02:47 PM
I caught that broadcast as well. I agree that it was Art's finest hour. I wonder how much capital he lost with his regular woo-woo/conspiracy theory base.


Regards, tbm

patrioticamerican
2005-Mar-27, 06:12 PM
Here's a few sites I know of:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=1&c=y

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://paulboutin.weblogger.com/2002/03/14

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_latest_findings_1004.htm

http://www.civil.columbia.edu/ce4210/FEMA_403CD/html/open.htm

Note, the latter is the so-called "infamous" FEMA report, which CNs fail to note contained PRELIMINARY observations, especially with regard to WTC7. The no doubt much more thorough NIST report on WTC7 is scheduled to be released this summer.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/11/011116064642.htm

http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/refute.htm

Alas, convincing the "true believers" of their foolishness is almost certainly a lost cause, but these links will hopefully give you some good talking points.

I think Popular Mechanics is owned by Hearst, which of course in the minds of conspiracists is the only "proof" they require to believe that they're "in on it." The fact that Benjamin Chertoff (sp) was responsible for the PM article adds fuel to their fire, because he's apparently a distant relative of the new head of Homeland Security.

Happy Easter everyone, and pray for Terri who's slowly being murdered by our outrageously out of control and disgustingly heartless legal and judicial system.

Kebsis
2005-Mar-27, 07:01 PM
I've noticed that when democrats are in office, CT folks refer to the bad guys as 'the powers that be' or 'the secret elite government' or something to that effect. Whereas with a republican in office they just point at the administration. I dunno why, it seems to be just two different ways to say the same thing. Perhaps they feel that their 'fan base' leans to the left. After all, most conservative nuts are more into the creationism side of woo-wooism than gov't conspiracies.

Sticks
2005-Mar-27, 07:04 PM
Could anyone tell me of a website showing the evidence against the 9/11 conspiracy? I have searched and all I have found are sites that support the nonsense.


From the BBC Horizon series (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/worldtradecenter.shtml) about the collapse of the twin towers

(There was a Channel 4 programme once, but Channel 4 do not seem to have a working search their site facility :( )

This link (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/rumors.asp) has a number of the various strands covered, but I did once see a rebuttle of the Snopes discussion of the Pentagon crash.


It is a belief here in the UK amongst the moslem population that Bush did it so he could wage war against a Muslim country for oil. Also Israel were in on it as pay masters :roll:

Sammy
2005-Mar-27, 07:35 PM
Sticks wrote


It is a belief here in the UK amongst the moslem population that Bush did it so he could wage war against a Muslim country for oil. Also Israel were in on it as pay masters.

The loons on GLP had an even more bizzare idea: It was a conspiracy goup involving the Mossad, the Masons, the Rothchilds, and (brace yourself) the Queen of England #-o #-o #-o

Sticks
2005-Mar-27, 07:53 PM
Sticks wrote
(brace yourself) the Queen of England #-o #-o #-o

Who is really an alien lizard :o

R.A.F.
2005-Mar-27, 09:06 PM
Alas, convincing the "true believers" of their foolishness is almost certainly a lost cause.."snip"..and pray for Terri who's slowly being murdered by our outrageously out of control and disgustingly heartless legal and judicial system.

No comment...just wanted to point out that "these" were written by the same person. :wink:

Kebsis
2005-Mar-27, 09:10 PM
Sticks wrote


It is a belief here in the UK amongst the moslem population that Bush did it so he could wage war against a Muslim country for oil. Also Israel were in on it as pay masters.

The loons on GLP had an even more bizzare idea: It was a conspiracy goup involving the Mossad, the Masons, the Rothchilds, and (brace yourself) the Queen of England #-o #-o #-o


And people laughed at me when I said I needed my assault rifle for when the queen of england came to steal my land!

collegeguy
2005-Mar-30, 12:55 AM
Here, there seems to be a DVD coming up with the conspiracy stuff:

First of all go to www.emule-project.net and download the application. Set it up according to your connection. Broadband connection is highly recommended, because the files I will post are very big and will take weeks to download on a 56k connection. Connect to any server.

Here's the stuff:


HE GREAT CONSPIRACY: The 9/11 News Special You Never Saw is a 70-minute sequel to The Great Deception. That is a ground-breaking 44-minute video also by Barrie Zwicker. He was the first mainstream journalist in the world to go on air (in January 2002) and ask hard questions about the official story of 9/11. The Great Deception is a compilation of his series of seven commentaries on 9/11. In The Great Conspiracy, Zwicker updates and expands his critique. He analyses the use of fear to befuddle the public. He deconstructs the so-called “war on terrorism.” He examines in depth the failure of the military on 9/11 and George Bush’s highly inappropriate behaviour that day. He finds the 9/11 Commission to be a total coverup operation. Throughout, he analyses the role of the mainstream media as complicit in keeping the public massively misinformed and befuddled. And he suggests what we can do. Those who have seen both works find them complementary.

Genre........: DocumentarySource.....: DVD
Filesize.....: 499 MB (or 510,994 KB or 523,257,856 bytes)
Runtime......: 01:10:22 (126,540 fr)
Video Codec..: XviD
Video Bitrate: 859 kb/s
Audio Codec..: 0x0055(MP3) ID'd as MPEG-1 Layer 3
Audio Bitrate: 124 kb/s (62/ch, stereo) VBR LAME3.90.#°
Frame Size...: 512x384 (1.33:1) [=4:3]

The.Great.Conspiracy-The.9-11.News.Special.You.Never.Saw.avi (499.02 MB)



Media critic Barrie Zwicker, the host of VisionTV Insight: Mediafile, is one of the few North American journalists to offer an alternative viewpoint on the Sept. 11 tragedy. In this provocative six-part series of Mediafile commentaries, he challenges the official explanation for the attacks and considers the troubling implications of Americas new war.
Poring over a wealth of published material, Zwicker finds much that has gone unexamine, from the apparent breakdown of American air defenses on Sept. 11, to the longstanding ties between U.S. intelligence and Osama bin Laden. He also takes a hard look at the actions of President George W. Bush in the midst of the crisis. And he ventures to ask what role U.S. oil interests may have played in these events.

Have the mainstream media failed to ask tough questions about September 11? They have generally accepted the official story, but skeptics believe there are still many unanswered questions. VisionTV Insight: Mediafile tackles this contentious issue in a provocative panel discussion that features American investigative journalist and whistle-blower Michael Ruppert, along with journalist and former Commissioner for the Somalia Inquiry Peter Desbarats, ethicist Phyllis Creighton and the former chair of Canada's Security Intelligence Review Committee, Ron Atkey. Rita Deverell, Executive Producer of VisionTV Insight, moderates the discussion.

Genre........: Documentary
Filesize.....: 316 MB (or 323,898 KB or 331,672,316 bytes)
Runtime......: 00:38:51 (69,848 fr)
Video Codec..: DivX 5.0
Video Bitrate: 1067 kb/s
Audio Codec..: 0x0055(MP3) ID'd as MPEG-1 Layer 3
Audio Bitrate: 64 kb/s (32/ch, stereo) CBR
Frame Size...: 640x480 (1.33:1) [=4:3]

The.Great.Deception-The.War.on.Terrorism_An.alternative.View .DivX.5.avi (316.31 MB)


With the ongoing controversy over the federal probe into the September 11 terrorist attacks, GNN decided to pre-empt the government and produce its own version of a 'truth commission' with: AfterMath: Unanswered Questions from 9/11.

Narrated by Hip Hop legend Paris and featuring interviews shot by GNN syndicate producers in six cities, AfterMath features nine (9) people answering eleven (11) of the most pressing questions that emanate from the terrible and, as yet, unexplained, events of that day. As you will see, these are questions that continue to overshadow and critically challenge the official 'version' of the story.

Unanswered Question # 1
To what extent should airlines have been prepared for 9/11?

Unanswered Question # 2
What did the Bush administration know and when?

Unanswered Question # 3
Why wasn’t the US military able to intercept the hijacked planes?

Unanswered Question # 4
How did the administration respond to the failures of the military and Intelligence agencies on 9/11?

Unanswered Question #5
What ties, if any, did the US government and Intelligence agencies have with the terrorists or their supporters?

Unanswered Question # 6
Were there plans for a war in central Asia prior to September 11?

Unanswered Question # 7
Is there an underlying motive, besides the War on Terror, for the US military presence in Central Asia?

Unanswered Question # 8
Is there any historical evidence to suggest that the government may have used the 9/11 attacks to justify its war in Central Asia?

Unanswered Question # 9
How has the government's reaction to the terrorist attacks affected the rule of law in the United States?

Unanswered Question # 10
How has recent legislation like the PATRIOT ACT and the Homeland Security bill affected the lives of American people?

Unanswered Question # 11
What can we do?

Featuring: George Soros, (billionaire philanthropist), Mary Schiavo (Aviation Disaster Attorney), Mike Ruppert (Publisher: From the Wilderness), Nafeez Ahmed (Author: The War on Freedom), David McMichael (former CIA analyst), Michel Chossudovsky (Author: War and Globalization), Peter Dale Scott (Professor Emeritus, UC Berkeley), Alex Jones (Editor: Infowars.com), John Judge (Founder, C.O.P.A.), Riva Enteen (Exec. Director, SF National Lawyer's Guild)

Genre: Documentary
Source: DVD
Video Codec: DivX 5
Video: 884 ~kbit/s AVI
Runtime: 115 Min. Combined.
Audio Format: ~96 kbit/s MP3 CBR
Frame Size: 512x368
Framerate: 29,970 fps
Language: English

Aftermath-Unanswered.Questions.from.9-11.DivX.5.avi (232.10 MB)
Aftermath-Additional.Interviews.DivX.5.avi (232.27 MB)
Aftermath-Live.Panel.DivX.5.avi (233.49 MB)


Concentration camps in America? Feds set to toss millions of innocent Americans into gruesome factories of torture and death? Could it be? Sounds preposterous. Yet, in this video, Texe Marrs marshals overwhelming evidence so convincing it boggles the mind. The Holy Bible of course, prophesies of unparalleled bloodshed and human suffering. In Revelation we are told that vast numbers of innocent human beings will be slaughtered, sacrificed to the beast and to his antichrist. America is not exempt. The killers who would perpetrate these new concentration camp holocausts are active today inside our borders. Indeed, they walk among us.

Genre: Documentary
Source: DVD
Video Codec: DivX 5.x
Video: ~901 kbit/s
Runtime: 01:21:16
Audio Format: ~56 kbit/s MP3 CBR
Aspect Ratio: 4:3
Frame Size: 352x240
Framerate: 29,970 fps
Language: English

Texe.Marrs-GULAG.USA-Concentration.Camps.In.America.DivX.avi (560.73 MB)

collegeguy
2005-Mar-30, 01:14 AM
By the way, Does anyone know of any news source mentioning that oil in the world is running out? Some of the conspiracy theorists argue the need for oil is the true reason for the so-called "War on terror".

Kebsis
2005-Apr-01, 05:45 AM
The oil thing is the most mainstream of the conspiracy theories. Few reputable sources say we are running out of oil; at most, they may say that existing reserves will be depleted in X amount of years. But, that isn't taking into account untapped sources of oil, either exposed by advancing technology or simply having gone unnoticed up until now.

patrioticamerican
2005-Apr-03, 06:25 PM
Alas, convincing the "true believers" of their foolishness is almost certainly a lost cause.."snip"..and pray for Terri who's slowly being murdered by our outrageously out of control and disgustingly heartless legal and judicial system.

No comment...just wanted to point out that "these" were written by the same person. :wink:

ha ha, wink wink

Darn straight. As far as I'm concerned an atheist has just as much "blind faith" as someone who believes in God, in that they both believe they know the truth. Ask either one to prove their belief.

You'd probably be surprised how many intelligent people believe in God. You might be disgusted to know that Dave Scott, the Commander of Apollo 15, believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and left a Bible in the LRV. Even Albert Einstein believed in God, in one form or another.

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible Universe, forms my idea of God."

Quoted in the New York Times obituary April 19, 1955

"Mere unbelief in a personal God is no philosophy at all."

Letter to V. T Aaltonen, May 7, 1952, on his opinion that belief in a personal God is better than atheism. Einstein Archive 59-059

Understanding what happened on 9/11 requires no blind faith, just some intelligence and critical thinking, i.e. a lack of gullibility. Understanding that Terri Schindler was in effect murdered, starved to death by her husband and a corrupt legal system motivated by a desire for the normalization of euthanasia, doesn't either. As for saying a prayer, it's entirely possible to do so without knowing that there's a God to hear it, and besides it can't hurt, unless you're of the opinion that such an action is personally degrading or harmful to mankind, which I suspect you do.

The Bad Astronomer
2005-Apr-03, 08:05 PM
This thread is in imminent danger of being locked.

Politics? Religion? In the same thread?

patrioticamerican, you are warned. Stay away from such topics here.

W.F. Tomba
2005-Apr-03, 08:52 PM
By the way, Does anyone know of any news source mentioning that oil in the world is running out? Some of the conspiracy theorists argue the need for oil is the true reason for the so-called "War on terror".
Since the world's oil is finite, it is by definition running out. Also, demand for oil is increasing (especially in developing nations such as China) while many experts believe that we are near the peak of world oil production. Here's a link to a rather talky but fairly intelligent discussion of the issue in Congress by U.S. Representatives Wayne Gilchrest and Roscoe Bartlett (both R-MD):
http://www.postcarbon.org/HTML/oilpeakinthehouse.htm#H1410

R.A.F.
2005-Apr-03, 09:51 PM
Understanding that Terri Schindler was in effect murdered, starved to death by her husband and a corrupt legal system motivated by a desire for the normalization of euthanasia...

I would really like to discuss this further, but not here. I suggest you come over to the FWIS (http://loresinger.com/FWIS/) board, and we can have a nice long talk.

You'll find me on the "*****, moan, and rant" forum...:)