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View Full Version : Starfleet needs to be at one end of a lawsuit



Glom
2017-Dec-28, 03:00 PM
I was just watching 'Elementary, My Dear Data' where Moriarty first appears. Because LaForge misspoke a word, the computer creates SENTIENT life, which is at first hostile with the willingness to kill. I want to see where in the Enterprise Release To Service this hazardous condition was mentioned.

WARNING Use caution when instructing the computer on recreational holodeck programmes. Unspecific language may lead the computer to create entities that are hazardous to ship and crew.

Glom
2017-Dec-28, 03:12 PM
Omg! Nobody locked out the Moriarty programme? An innocent engineer can just happen upon this dangerous programme and open it. It's like these buffoons want to die.

(I put on the sequel, 'Ship in a Bottle', BTW)

Solfe
2017-Dec-28, 03:18 PM
I was just watching 'Elementary, My Dear Data' where Moriarty first appears. Because LaForge misspoke a word, the computer creates SENTIENT life, which is at first hostile with the willingness to kill. I want to see where in the Enterprise Release To Service this hazardous condition was mentioned.

WARNING Use caution when instructing the computer on recreational holodeck programmes. Unspecific language may lead the computer to create entities that are hazardous to ship and crew.

The holodeck is a foray into fantasy for the show. In some respects, I like it and in others I find it silly. Some of the better shows were when someone misspoke and got more than they expected. The best shows are when a character develops a transferable skill, where the holodeck doesn't play into the situation outside, yet the characters learn something inside and bring that point of view or knowledge out with them. Character development in ways that aren't possible on a spaceship. I give Moriarty a pass because it was a great series of shows, even though if you think it through, it becomes very silly.

I object when the characters go to the holodeck and it doesn't work its way into the plot. The writers forget that this element of the show is fantasy, and begin showing/telling how the machine works because it has no point otherwise. Of course, the only thing this allows for is confusion and contradiction.

I am kind of surprised that more people don't go swimming or flying on the holodeck. It has a host of potentially useful knowledge that it can convey to a user but no one tries it. Instant, non-permanent hair cuts, clothes sizing, toys that can't exists, painting and sculpting, EVA without a spacesuit, a better golf swing, etc. None of this is very interesting for a story, but interjecting some red shirt activities would have been simple. There should be a line to the holodeck, but there almost never is.

Spacedude
2017-Dec-28, 03:51 PM
Maybe the most realistic representation of the holodeck is the episode where Reginald Barclay was addicted to it.

KaiYeves
2017-Dec-28, 03:57 PM
I am kind of surprised that more people don't go swimming or flying on the holodeck. It has a host of potentially useful knowledge that it can convey to a user but no one tries it. Instant, non-permanent hair cuts, clothes sizing, toys that can't exists, painting and sculpting, EVA without a spacesuit, a better golf swing, etc. None of this is very interesting for a story, but interjecting some red shirt activities would have been simple. There should be a line to the holodeck, but there almost never is.

If I could experience flying, actual pure flying like in childhood daydreams without a plane or any equipment... it would be hard to convince me to simulate anything else.

SkepticJ
2017-Dec-28, 04:07 PM
I mostly like the holodeck, but it is very poorly designed: why does it have a door that can fail to open, trapping people inside? Have a door with a simple manually-turned deadbolt that's hidden behind a walk around holographic screen. Security has keys for the deadbolt. Cutting power to the holodeck should also be foolproof, like throwing the lever that disconnects the power to your house.

Why do holographic guns shoot holographic bullets? Why do they shoot anything that could hurt you if the holodeck safety mechanisms aren't working?

swampyankee
2017-Dec-28, 04:49 PM
I mostly like the holodeck, but it is very poorly designed: why does it have a door that can fail to open, trapping people inside? Have a door with a simple manually-turned deadbolt that's hidden behind a walk around holographic screen. Security has keys for the deadbolt. Cutting power to the holodeck should also be foolproof, like throwing the lever that disconnects the power to your house.

Why do holographic guns shoot holographic bullets? Why do they shoot anything that could hurt you if the holodeck safety mechanisms aren't working?
With functional safety systems, they'd not have an excuse for these "we're trapped and the holodeck is trying to kill us" plot lines.

SkepticJ
2017-Dec-28, 05:32 PM
With functional safety systems, they'd not have an excuse for these "we're trapped and the holodeck is trying to kill us" plot lines.

That's the point. Those are stupid. They're the TV equivalent of that Westworld movie. "Let's make a theme park with a hermetically-sealed control room with no handles for the doors! Let's give androids real guns, and assume that software bugs won't ever make them do the unintended! Herp derp!"

Jim
2017-Dec-28, 06:01 PM
... There should be a line to the holodeck, but there almost never is.

That's because most folks read the warning label and say, "Yeah ... I don't think so."

swampyankee
2017-Dec-28, 06:46 PM
That's because most folks read the warning label and say, "Yeah ... I don't think so."

The quote from Doctor Who in your sig pretty much sums it up.

Solfe
2017-Dec-28, 07:02 PM
That's the point. Those are stupid. They're the TV equivalent of that Westworld movie. "Let's make a theme park with a hermetically-sealed control room with no handles for the doors! Let's give androids real guns, and assume that software bugs won't ever make them do the unintended! Herp derp!"

I never understood gunfire in the holodeck. A simulated phaser is just a flashlight, a real phaser can burn you to ash. Firearms are even worse, because the older they get the more likely they are to significantly injure you while not out and out killing you. You'd think that every simulated shot would miss because you'd be dead or maimed by any sort of hit. What exactly are you simulating?

I could see the value in a story that simulates shots that don't hurt you (much), but having real stuff fly a round is crazy. Maybe paint balls or snowball level injuries at the upper end. No need for real bullet wounds. Maybe you could have the story end in a "big fade to black then reset".

Ender's game had it down, a light froze you space suit. Not much chance of getting hurt, but some people still managed to work up enough speed to slam into walls or people and get hurt.

cjameshuff
2017-Dec-28, 07:12 PM
Omg! Nobody locked out the Moriarty programme? An innocent engineer can just happen upon this dangerous programme and open it. It's like these buffoons want to die.

(I put on the sequel, 'Ship in a Bottle', BTW)

And not only did they not send him off to a research facility better suited to dealing with him, they apparently left his program in a state where it was actually partially running, going by his perception of time passing.

The whole mess was never satisfying to me. The stupidity on display in their whole approach to the problem, for starters. They have a sentient AI that has grown beyond his programming and wants to enter the real world. They could replicate an android body in a matter of minutes, the problem with androids has always been the AI. Instead of building him such a body, even just as a temporary or partial solution, they waste time trying to transport holographic projections of virtual objects out of the holodeck. In the end, instead of helping Moriarty, they take advantage of his lack of real world experience and knowledge to trick him, dooming him to a lifetime of delusion trapped in a tiny box...and nobody seems to find this at all ethically questionable. Everyone seems satisfied that he's no longer inconveniencing them...problem solved.

Glom
2017-Dec-28, 08:37 PM
Sfdebris pointed out an interesting unintentional oddity. While the Enterprise holodecks were constantly malfunctioning and killing people, the holosuites in Quark's never did so. So it seems innocent people were safer in the hands of a greedy Ferengi than in the hands of the noble Starfleet.

To elaborate on the thread header, I'm not sure whether Starfleet should be sued or should sue someone themselves. It depends on whether the holodeck technology is entirely in-house or whether it was bought in from an external vendor. Of course, if the latter, it depends on what kind of integration testing was done. If they just bought it off the shelf, then the integration of the product into the rest of the ship was down to them and the OEM will probably say they wired it up all stupid.

swampyankee
2017-Dec-28, 10:13 PM
Sfdebris pointed out an interesting unintentional oddity. While the Enterprise holodecks were constantly malfunctioning and killing people, the holosuites in Quark's never did so. So it seems innocent people were safer in the hands of a greedy Ferengi than in the hands of the noble Starfleet.

To elaborate on the thread header, I'm not sure whether Starfleet should be sued or should sue someone themselves. It depends on whether the holodeck technology is entirely in-house or whether it was bought in from an external vendor. Of course, if the latter, it depends on what kind of integration testing was done. If they just bought it off the shelf, then the integration of the product into the rest of the ship was down to them and the OEM will probably say they wired it up all stupid.

The Ferengi had to deal with the Federation's Health and Safety Office; Starfleet is exempt from such nitpicky regulations.

Solfe
2017-Dec-29, 12:14 AM
Sfdebris pointed out an interesting unintentional oddity. While the Enterprise holodecks were constantly malfunctioning and killing people, the holosuites in Quark's never did so. So it seems innocent people were safer in the hands of a greedy Ferengi than in the hands of the noble Starfleet.

To elaborate on the thread header, I'm not sure whether Starfleet should be sued or should sue someone themselves. It depends on whether the holodeck technology is entirely in-house or whether it was bought in from an external vendor. Of course, if the latter, it depends on what kind of integration testing was done. If they just bought it off the shelf, then the integration of the product into the rest of the ship was down to them and the OEM will probably say they wired it up all stupid.

I think Quark had preset holodeck stories, with specific endings. Everything thing in his suite is planned.

Glom
2017-Dec-29, 12:36 AM
I think Quark had preset holodeck stories, with specific endings. Everything thing in his suite is planned.That was one thing that got me. In DS9, they make it seem that writing holosuite programmes was a skill where professionals produce commercial works. But in this episode, LaForge just instructs the computer to write a Sherlock Holmes story like that. This was particularly ironic given the exercise was framed as trying to show to Pulaski that Data was capable of creative thought by trying to solve a mystery without depending on rote knowledge, yet she didn't bat an eyelid at the computer being asked to be even more creative in writing original literature.

SkepticJ
2017-Dec-31, 03:53 AM
There should be a line to the holodeck, but there almost never is.

It works on the schedule, not queue line system. This is established in one or more episodes. Of course when the senior officers need one for serious purposes, the larpers have to clear out.

It's never shown to my knowledge, but a holodeck should be able to run multiple programs at once; there might be thirty people inside, each in their own little holographic bubble a bit larger in diameter than they are tall.

Glom
2017-Dec-31, 10:27 AM
It works on the schedule, not queue line system. This is established in one or more episodes. Of course when the senior officers need one for serious purposes, the larpers have to clear out.

It's never shown to my knowledge, but a holodeck should be able to run multiple programs at once; there might be thirty people inside, each in their own little holographic bubble a bit larger in diameter than they are tall.Gross.

SkepticJ
2018-Jan-01, 12:17 AM
Gross.

That's pretty vague; care to elaborate why you think it's gross?

Glom
2018-Jan-01, 02:46 PM
That's pretty vague; care to elaborate why you think it's gross?You know what people do on holodecks.

KaiYeves
2018-Jan-01, 03:49 PM
That's pretty vague; care to elaborate why you think it's gross?

Glom means that it's one thing if people are simulating... inappropriate things... in a room by themselves alone, but if several people are all doing... those kinds of things... in the same room at once thinking that they're alone, it would be gross/weird. Like the R-rated version of a silent disco (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_disco).

SkepticJ
2018-Jan-01, 11:41 PM
I guess the gross-factor depends on how one conceptualizes it. In my thinking, the holographic bubbles are temporary-rooms; they'd prevent anyone else (or their potential byproducts) from entering your space and give you total privacy. Would honeycombing the volume of the holodeck into tens of cells using walls made of genuine atoms instead of photons and force fields make a substantive difference?

captain swoop
2018-Jan-02, 12:15 AM
I pity the poor crewman rostered to clean out the mess.

Glom
2018-Jan-03, 01:12 AM
I guess the gross-factor depends on how one conceptualizes it. In my thinking, the holographic bubbles are temporary-rooms; they'd prevent anyone else (or their potential byproducts) from entering your space and give you total privacy. Would honeycombing the volume of the holodeck into tens of cells using walls made of genuine atoms instead of photons and force fields make a substantive difference?It would in the event of a power failure.

SeanF
2018-Jan-03, 02:29 AM
It would in the event of a power failure.
Oh, I'm sure there would be several safety features in place to prevent such a thing from happening. :)

Trebuchet
2018-Jan-03, 02:56 AM
Wil Wheaton is upset that Lego has depicted Wesley Crusher as a whiny brat.

swampyankee
2018-Jan-03, 10:05 PM
Oh, I'm sure there would be several safety features in place to prevent such a thing from happening. :)

Maybe the people of Starfleet have twenty-seven words for “Oops, sorry.”

SkepticJ
2018-Jan-04, 04:07 AM
It would in the event of a power failure.

Fair enough. Use the transporters to erect real walls on demand.

Noclevername
2018-Apr-16, 11:01 PM
Why do holographic guns shoot holographic bullets? Why do they shoot anything that could hurt you if the holodeck safety mechanisms aren't working?[/QUOTE]

Solid objects that have to be handled are replicated. Like the paper they took off the HDeck to show Picard.

Why they don't just shoot blanks, though...

DaveC426913
2018-Apr-17, 02:00 PM
I pity the poor crewman rostered to clean out the mess.

In the wayback days, when the internet was banged out on stone tablets, there was a blog by a Starfleet Janitor.

He'd write weekly about what a miserable job it was; his most despised task was mopping out the Holodeck after Worf had been running one of his 'private' programs.

SkepticJ
2018-Apr-17, 07:59 PM
Solid objects that have to be handled are replicated. Like the paper they took off the HDeck to show Picard.

Why they don't just shoot blanks, though...

That doesn't make sense. Unless the carried-objects are going to be removed from the holodeck, it shouldn't matter. Clothes are replicated though--most of the time.

Blank rounds aren't 100% safe. They still have explosives in them. Get the muzzle too close to flesh and you can blow fingers off, cause a fatal head injury, etc.

Noclevername
2018-Apr-17, 10:51 PM
That doesn't make sense. Unless the carried-objects are going to be removed from the holodeck, it shouldn't matter. Clothes are replicated though--most of the time.

Blank rounds aren't 100% safe. They still have explosives in them. Get the muzzle too close to flesh and you can blow fingers off, cause a fatal head injury, etc.

Less dangerous than bullets.

Glom
2018-Dec-02, 08:21 AM
Does anyone else think it is dangerous to have a hand gun that has settings ranging from stun the target for a few minutes to destroy a building? The only difference from a user perspective is the teeny weeny array of the lights, which may not even show up well in certain lighting conditions.

Solfe
2018-Dec-02, 01:26 PM
Does anyone else think it is dangerous to have a hand gun that has settings ranging from stun the target for a few minutes to destroy a building? The only difference from a user perspective is the teeny weeny array of the lights, which may not even show up well in certain lighting conditions.

Considering how often I drop my phone, the power source concerns me.

As far as the damage it does, I'd want pistols that only stuns and a big rifle for leveling buildings. More likely to sweep part of your own body with a pistol, might was well have a little safety there. Apparently no one Star Trek has seen the Andy Griffith Show. Don Knotts shooting himself in the foot is pretty funny except when you have a device that can knock down a building.

geonuc
2018-Dec-02, 02:21 PM
Does anyone else think it is dangerous to have a hand gun that has settings ranging from stun the target for a few minutes to destroy a building? The only difference from a user perspective is the teeny weeny array of the lights, which may not even show up well in certain lighting conditions.

Reminds me of a Dave Barry piece where he mentions the usefulness of the laser, which can vaporize a bulldozer or perform delicate eye surgery, provided the user remembers to change the power setting from 'bulldozer' to 'eyeball'.

Noclevername
2018-Dec-02, 02:24 PM
Considering how often I drop my phone, the power source concerns me.

As far as the damage it does, I'd want pistols that only stuns and a big rifle for leveling buildings. More likely to sweep part of your own body with a pistol, might was well have a little safety there. Apparently no one Star Trek has seen the Andy Griffith Show. Don Knotts shooting himself in the foot is pretty funny except when you have a device that can knock down a building.

They used overloaded phasers as explosives in several episodes of TOS. And draining seven phasers is (almost) enough energy to launch a shuttlecraft from a class M planet.

Solfe
2018-Dec-02, 03:09 PM
They used overloaded phasers as explosives in several episodes of TOS. And draining seven phasers is (almost) enough energy to launch a shuttlecraft from a class M planet.

I am not sure if that is "getting the math right" or "we can't build more props".

You'd think that soldiers would say something a long the lines of: "Hey, I don't really need/want that capability." Multi-tools are great, until you need to do a good job. Then you want real tools. Shovels that have a feature to be used like an axe come to mind. Nice not having to carry two items, but after a certain point you want one axe and one shovel. Armies have trucks full of axes and shovels following the troops just for that reason.

Star Trek (or any TV show) doesn't really have the capacity to show a baggage train or oodles of props. Stargate Atlantis managed to do it, but then again, they just showed boxes and boxes of supplies being dumped off. Nice touch, but not terribly exciting. One episode, they showed hundreds of rail guns coming through the gate. But they only needed one prop to get the idea of hundreds of them in operation. Everything else was just boxes. They probably used the boxes for filming supplies instead of building more props.

Glom
2019-Feb-24, 08:25 PM
'A Fistful of Datas'. Another holodeck gone awry story. LaForge and Data decide to fart around with plugging Data into the Enterprise computer to see if he can do Super Barclay stuff. There is crosswriting of stuff including Data's image being used for progressively more characters in Worf's western holonovel and also the safeties fail and they can't terminate the program or exit the holodeck.

Obviously, one must wonder why even if some of Data's mind contaminated the entertainment database, it would cause the safeties to fail. One must also wonder why, when the other malfunctions are music files being swapped for those of interest to Data, that Data's image is being used in the program.

But most importantly, where was the risk assessment? LaForge and Data were performing a new experiment on the live Enterprise computer. These guys are so irresponsible.

Also, I think Picard listening to Mozart is trite. He should be listening to something that is as removed from him as Mozart is from us. So early 22nd century. But failing that, how about something contemporary for the production time? I nominate the music from E.T.. But that's only because the great pieces from Zelda hadn't been written at the time the episode was made.

Roger E. Moore
2019-Feb-24, 08:39 PM
Picard should be listening to "Fergalicious."

KaiYeves
2019-Feb-24, 09:17 PM
Hey now, you can't tell somebody else what music to like.

Solfe
2019-Feb-24, 09:28 PM
Picard should be listening to "Fergalicious."

Too bad memes weren't a thing when the show aired. "WTH is wrong with you? You can't listen to Dark Side of the Moon on shuffle!"

DaveC426913
2019-Feb-25, 12:33 AM
Maybe the most realistic representation of the holodeck is the episode where Reginald Barclay was addicted to it.

Doubly so for the 'Primal Urges' episode of Orville... where they wrote the story everyone was thinking but no one was writing. :D