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mark_mci
2005-Mar-07, 07:17 PM
In the movie the Matrix....they were not sure what year it was....is it not possible to just point a radio telesope to find Jupiter and tell what year it is?

weatherc
2005-Mar-07, 08:04 PM
In the movie the Matrix....they were not sure what year it was....is it not possible to just point a radio telesope to find Jupiter and tell what year it is?

I guess when your entire existence consists of living underground, and the entire free population of your species is under the threat of extinction at any moment at the hands of intelligent machines that have been using the rest of your species as a power source, it's possible that you just have a set of priorities that don't include knowing exactly what year it is.

NoXion
2005-Mar-07, 08:44 PM
I don't think the producers ever intended you to know what year it truly was, but judging from what I saw on the 'Animatrix' (Specifically the Second Renaissance pts I and II) I would guess any time between 2200 and 2500AD.

teddyv
2005-Mar-07, 08:55 PM
I recall from the first movie, there was a reference to the people inhabiting Zion that they stayed at depth where heat from the earth was enough to survive. At the apparent depth, that would suggest a very long time into the future. :-?

TriangleMan
2005-Mar-07, 09:05 PM
There would be other ways as well to determine the year, such as radiometric dating of objects from human history whose date of origin is known. With a bit of effort, access to prior data, and providing there are any trees left, you could use tree ring dating as well. And with really accurate instruments maybe you could measure the distance to the Moon and see how much it has receded. I'm sure there are other ways as well, but if I lived in "Matrix World" I would be more concerned with staying alive than figuring out what year it was.

Jason
2005-Mar-07, 10:09 PM
The easiest way would be to ask the machines, now that the two societies have an at least temporary truce. The machines are obviously aware of human history (since they were able to recreate a historical era for the Matrix) and could probably tell you the exact date if they wanted to.

According to the Architect in Reloaded, Zion has been destroyed and re-created six times. If we assume that they start with roughly 30 people each time and grow to approximately a quarter million before they are destroyed then it could be centuries between iterations, making Morpheus' guess of "closer to 2199" way off.

Charly
2005-Mar-07, 11:31 PM
According to the Architect in Reloaded, Zion has been destroyed and re-created six times. If we assume that they start with roughly 30 people each time and grow to approximately a quarter million before they are destroyed then it could be centuries between iterations, making Morpheus' guess of "closer to 2199" way off.

I stll dont understand that plot point.

What is the point of Zion in the first place? So that The One - a systemic anomaly can be created and analysed?

You What?

Exactly why is this?

So he can choose not to fulfil his destiny?

Christ I could have thought of a better storyline than that. Why not just drop the destiny part of the story, and just play it straight?

Charly
2005-Mar-07, 11:35 PM
Oh, and why do he machines need humans for power??

Are you saying that they cant use Nuclear or Fusion power?

What about wind or tidal.

Jesus, these are sentient machines, of a highly developed technology. Are you saying they couldnt send up a few ships into space to install solar collectors?

And why did the Zions not keep a couple of spare EMPs at home, as a last line of defense? They all deserved to die for being stupid.

Apart from that, I really enjoyed the Matrix Trilogy....

Jason
2005-Mar-07, 11:58 PM
I stll dont understand that plot point.

What is the point of Zion in the first place? So that The One - a systemic anomaly can be created and analysed?
Zion is a safety outlet for those who will not accept the program. They are allowed to free others of their kind and mount their "rebellion", but it is regularly destroyed by the machines and re-created by the One.

I understand all that fairly well, but after that things get a bit fuzzy. There is something about the One somehow carrying the code which will re-vitalize the Matrix and the Matrix being essentially re-set and ready to continue for another iteration when he reaches the Source (mainframe) and enters his code.
How exactly Neo is carrying necessary computer code in him is the part I'm not clear on, nor on where he gets his ability to see and destroy the machines in the real world.

Gullible Jones
2005-Mar-08, 12:17 AM
Simple answer: the "real" world is not the real world in the Matrix series. Zion's just another partition...

Moose
2005-Mar-08, 12:29 AM
Simple answer: the "real" world is not the real world in the Matrix series. Zion's just another partition...

This is one of the rare times where Gullible Jones and I are in agreement. It's the only candidate theory that seems to be consistent with what we've seen (if not the writers' intentions.)

Smith claimed that the first matrix had been utopic, but people wouldn't accept it. They needed some degree of misery in their lives for it to be believable.

And yet, the zionites could not accept it. It was too idillic. It didn't feel right to them. And so they escaped. Into a world of misery. Where an agent program was able to escape and possess someone. Into a world where The One discovered he was able to see code and fight machines digitally. Into a world that is periodically wiped out and rebuilt.

Into a world where they are supposedly used as batteries (but from where we know this is both unlikely and physically impossible.) There's no reason to believe the Zionites are correct in their belief about the purpose of being plugged in.

A matrix within a matrix within a matrix.

Those who successfully disbelieve Zion? What happens to them? What... or where... is reality? Who are the puppetmasters?

Lycus
2005-Mar-08, 03:31 AM
A matrix within a matrix within a matrix.
If I remember correctly, that was one of the biggest theories from fans before the third movie came out.

Of course, that was before they all discovered that the third movie was just special effects fest with no more interesting revelations or plot twists. :P

gopher65
2005-Mar-08, 02:22 PM
I think I agree with Moose for the most part.

I believe that the writers were trying to indicate that Neo was still connected to the machines, and he was capable of accessing and destroying them (self destruct possibly). This is pretty stupid, and I like the matrix within a matrix idea better.

BTW, I figured that in order for the population to grow to half a million 6 times (assuming a very large family, a starting population of 30, and no down time between Zion recreations) the year would have to be ~4500 AD. If the starting population was 200 (a more realistic number in my view, not too large, not too small), then the year would be ~3600 AD. That was a stupid plot device. They obviously didn't have the entire series planned out when they created the first movie. The first movie seems to be loosely based on the short story "The Machine Stops" by .... I don't remember. The plot is so similar though that it can't be a coincidence.

Doodler
2005-Mar-08, 02:46 PM
Keep in mind that not all Zionites are natural born. Over the course of a century or so, more people are pulled from the program.

I have no trouble with Zion as the real world, its a dumpster for the rejects that threaten the system. Its not as if agents can detect these flaws from someone within, so as the errors build within those who see beyond the program, they're removed.

The whole one business kinda struck me as being parallel to the Mule from the Foundation series. Statistical analysis shows that eventually there will come a human so capable of manipulating the system that the survival of the system is at risk. I won't speak to his real world ability to affect machines, that hooey struck me as ripped right off of Dune or Star Wars, but the idea that a human mind of such capability as to manipulate digital reality at Neo's level of ability can exist is completely reasonable. Hackers do it all the time today, manipulating software in manners never intended by those who code it.

Given that no timeframe for the level of rejection among humans within the Matrix is ever given, nor is any kind of information presented on the non-Matrix human birth rate, the growth of Zion's population from 30 to 250,000 is unpredictable. Personally, I think the level of rejection in a population of billions producing a quarter million rejections, give or take, is very reasonable within a 100 year timeframe, thats only a .025% rejection rate given a Matrix bound population of one billion. The progression of rejection is geometric. The first crew of Matrix runners frees another crew, those two eventually free two more crews, who free four more, then 8, progressing like a virus within the Matrix, which makes Smith's assertions about human behavior in the first movie all the more cogent.

As far as the level of technology and the kind of innovations the machines did or did not make over the course of 600 or more years, the machines went with what they had. They didn't strike me as impressive innovators, simply vultures feeding on the carcass humans left behind and building on the bones of their culture. Given the difficulties they had in keeping humans under wraps, they seemed comfortable with the solution they had come up with. Remember, they see the human tendency to expand into every conceivable niche a negative. Their whole existance is about definitive function, not something that leads me to believe they're big on hypothesis and inspiration.

Stregone
2005-Mar-08, 04:28 PM
After reloaded one of the brothers said that it was DEFINITLY NOT a matrix within a matrix. That would be a lame cop out on the whole thing. Its more like he had an inate wireless link to the matrix/machine mainframe and he subconsiously hacked the sentenels from within. He did have 'the code' in his body/brain after all.

Jason
2005-Mar-08, 04:31 PM
Most of the population of Zion appears to be "home grown" humans - watch the rave scene again and you'll see that very few people have the plugs that indicate they were rescued from the Matrix.

The idea that the "Real World" is just another layer of the Matrix was a theory I was leaning towards after Neo's impossible actions in Reloaded, but the third movie (and the bonus material on the DVDs) seems to make it pretty clear that the writers intend the Real World to be just that.

novaderrik
2005-Mar-08, 07:32 PM
i always got the impression that the Matrix movies were just a good excuse for Keanu to get back into his "Bill and Ted" mode of "acting"..
overall, i thought the series was about as good as- and maybe worse than- the movie "Hackers" from about 12 years ago.
and that movie sucked..

Madcat
2005-Mar-08, 10:00 PM
Hackers at least had that really cool arcade version of Wipeout. 8)


(Which actually didn't exist at the time; the character is "playing" a CG-rendered sequence.)

Charly
2005-Mar-08, 10:50 PM
As for the Party Zionites not having input nodes on their necks.

Remember that the city was under attack, and most of the ship personnel would need the rejects to hook into the matrix, as naturals dont have this ability - and they may have not been at the party. Even so, there were only 30 ships, sowho knows?

toolazytotypemyname
2005-Mar-09, 01:21 AM
matrix within a matrix?

sounds like The Thirteenth Floor which was a much better movie in my opinion.

oops that was a spoiler, wasn't it?

DataCable
2005-Mar-09, 07:14 AM
i always got the impression that the Matrix movies were just a good excuse for Keanu to get back into his "Bill and Ted" mode of "acting"..
"Back?" :-s When did he leave it?

TriangleMan
2005-Mar-09, 12:08 PM
Website for people who just can't get enough Keanu Reeves (http://www.hereinreality.com/kissingbooth/kisskeanu.html). :lol:


Look, a "Keanu acting" smiley ====> :-?

Jason
2005-Mar-09, 04:22 PM
After reloaded one of the brothers said that it was DEFINITLY NOT a matrix within a matrix. That would be a lame cop out on the whole thing. Its more like he had an inate wireless link to the matrix/machine mainframe and he subconsiously hacked the sentenels from within. He did have 'the code' in his body/brain after all.
That doesn't explain how he could see Agent Smith in a human body (either before or after he had his eyes burned out).
The only explanation for Neo's abilities seems to be that "He is the One" - it's magic. Kind of a let down, really, after all the scientific explanations for ghosts, werewolves, and superpowers in the Matrix.

TheGalaxyTrio
2005-Mar-09, 04:31 PM
What is the point of Zion in the first place? So that The One - a systemic anomaly can be created and analysed?

You What?

Exactly why is this?



It was an anomaly that even the uber-AIs had trouble subtracting from the system. I actually kind of liked that bit. It recognizes that a virtual world like that would be so complex that even super-intellects would have bugs and glitches, perhaps even some that would take an elaborate test plan to track down , analyze, and remedy.

Obviously, they were running the final version of Windows before the AIs took over. :)


Why not just drop the destiny part of the story, and just play it straight?

Because then it would have been like every other action film. As flawed as the trilogy is, I appreciate it a lot for the fact that they tried to do something different.

Now if the Wachowskis would go and do Alan Moore's "V For Vendetta" like they once hinted, life would be very good.

Doodler
2005-Mar-09, 10:09 PM
i always got the impression that the Matrix movies were just a good excuse for Keanu to get back into his "Bill and Ted" mode of "acting"..
"Back?" :-s When did he leave it?

He did, very briefly, in The Devil's Advocate.

JonnyWishbone
2005-Mar-09, 11:30 PM
Entertainment Weekly mentioned that Natalie Portman is cast in V for Vendetta with the Wachowskis directing et al., so maybe it is a go. I just hope V doesn't turn into Jesus like Neo did. That would be double-plus ungood.

Cheers, Jon

Defender
2005-Mar-10, 12:48 PM
The first movie seems to be loosely based on the short story "The Machine Stops" by .... I don't remember. The plot is so similar though that it can't be a coincidence.

Cripes, you're right. I remember enjoying that story immensely at school- it was by E.M. Forster, if I recall correctly.

To be fair to the Wachowskis, the idea of humans living in a self-contained soft prison (whether virtual or not) is a pretty common idea in SF. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of ripping the story off, when it's such a common trope to use in stories- they just came up with a new twist on an old idea.