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Plat
2005-Mar-15, 04:09 AM
Could an alien underwater life evolve into a complex life? could there be an underwater alien civilization?

Musashi
2005-Mar-15, 04:22 AM
Yes.

A Thousand Pardons
2005-Mar-15, 04:30 AM
meesha think so

Inferno
2005-Mar-15, 04:31 AM
Well, I'm sure someone could come up with a reason for it being possible. Maybe it's better to think of reasons why it may not be possible. For example, they wouldn't be able to create fire.

Plat
2005-Mar-15, 05:01 AM
Yeah that will surely slow them down

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-15, 05:47 AM
Some think that earth life started out in deep ocean vents then moved to the surface, so we may be proof of the concept.

Plat
2005-Mar-15, 06:54 AM
Some think that earth life started out in deep ocean vents then moved to the surface, so we may be proof of the concept.

I mean like they live underwater, have a civilization underwater

Enzp
2005-Mar-15, 07:47 AM
Could they really be civilized without hot water? Of course if they could make fire underwater, what would they put it out with if it got out of hand, or out of flipper perhaps?

Platinum, the overarching theme to these posts of yours seems to be you want us to give you assurance that there is probably other life out there equivalent to us. The simple fact is we do not know. So anything we come up with is pure speculation. And given the lack of facts to base it on, it really turns into rationalizing what we wish it to be.

I personally am in the camp of life started around undersea vents, but it is really just that that hypothesis feels most comfortable to my thought process. Life is certainly possible OUT THERE, but there are so many iffs and yeah buts that we can say nothing for certain.

DoktorGreg
2005-Mar-15, 08:11 AM
I give it a distinct possibility with qualification... They probably would be retarted in their development of radio technology, as the radio waves dont transmit so well under water. Besides, their sonar tech would be so incredibly advanced they wouldnt need radio.

DoktorGreg
2005-Mar-15, 08:19 AM
OMG and I almost forgot....

Who needs aliens to develop underwater, when human may have already done the same thing...

http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/human_origins/aquatic_ape.html

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-15, 08:03 PM
Some think that earth life started out in deep ocean vents then moved to the surface, so we may be proof of the concept.

I mean like they live underwater, have a civilization underwaterEventually we may follow Buckminster Fuller's designs and have structures and transportation underwater. Thus we would be life that evolved underwater and will have a civilization underwater.

Plat
2005-Mar-15, 08:52 PM
But we wont be really built for underwater

Bounced Check
2005-Mar-16, 12:53 AM
Think about all the chains of events that would NOT happen if a race of creatures evolved into an intelligent speices underwater - They would not have developed technology to travel through the air, as they would have not developed propulsion strong enough to get a craft full of water into the air becasue they never had the chance to experiment with fuels that would burn hot enough - You cannot develop metalurgy while underwater - the laws of physics would preclude so many technological advancements that they would at best be stone age bottom dwellers who MIGHT learn to herd fish.

Plat
2005-Mar-16, 01:29 AM
A civilization as we know it certainly wouldn't exist, but it's not obvious to me that they couldn't just follow a different path. Intelligent creatures are extremely versatile.

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-16, 04:58 AM
But we wont be really built for underwaterNeither are dolphins and whales if you delimit by respiration. In a way, you could say our brains and opposable thumbs are what make us successful underwater or in any other environment.

Ari Jokimaki
2005-Mar-16, 06:33 AM
Think about all the chains of events that would NOT happen if a race of creatures evolved into an intelligent speices underwater - They would not have developed technology to travel through the air, as they would have not developed propulsion strong enough to get a craft full of water into the air becasue they never had the chance to experiment with fuels that would burn hot enough - You cannot develop metalurgy while underwater - the laws of physics would preclude so many technological advancements that they would at best be stone age bottom dwellers who MIGHT learn to herd fish.

If there is underwater volcanic activity, then I think there could be a possibility for some kind of metal processing. But it's a long step from there to burning something in an engine. Perhaps they could trap some underwater gases and burn them. Or perhaps they would just have pressurized water running the engines.

Developing electronics might be difficult.

dvb
2005-Mar-16, 07:51 AM
Are purple flying elephants possible?









Without mind altering drugs? 8-[

grewwalk
2005-Mar-16, 08:15 AM
A logical progression might be:

Develope land suits, explore and dry experiment. Also create "dry labs" at home.

Discover fire, electricity, etc.

Eventual infrastructure on land with developed air-based tech

well, etc ...

It's only a matter of time before the next step ... space.




Are purple flying elephants possible?

Paint and a cargo lift! :D

Chip
2005-Mar-16, 08:34 AM
grewwalk's observations point out how rational explanations can often be found for seemingly impossible notions. Bravo! :wink:

http://images.ibsys.com/2000/1025/125170.jpg

"Excuse me, I'm from the planet Aqua. We come in peace, to trade our Olympic swimming lessons and water polo for your matches, hot sauce, and sun lamps."

captain swoop
2005-Mar-16, 10:34 AM
Hal Clement wrote a short about an aquatic civilisation living in shallow water, their houses were just walls extending to the surface, no need for a roof.

Russ
2005-Mar-16, 03:02 PM
Could an alien underwater life evolve into a complex life? could there be an underwater alien civilization?

I'd say the answer is pretty obviously yes. Here on Earth we have dolphins and whales whom have pretty sophisticated language, social protocals and adaptability.

If it happens here, it has to happen all over. :)

Daffy
2005-Mar-16, 05:48 PM
Could an alien underwater life evolve into a complex life? could there be an underwater alien civilization?

I'd say the answer is pretty obviously yes. Here on Earth we have dolphins and whales whom have pretty sophisticated language, social protocals and adaptability.

If it happens here, it has to happen all over. :)

Which brings up an interesting point: if such a civilization existed, would we even recognize it as such? I doubt it...

publiusr
2005-Mar-16, 07:10 PM
Great Cthulhu.

Think cephalopod.

TravisM
2005-Mar-16, 09:00 PM
Aren't dolphins and whales mammals?

Tacitus
2005-Mar-16, 09:36 PM
I think some people are confusing being technological with being intelligent.

I don't think there is any reason to believe that evolving higher intelligence requires the use of technology. Human beings got along quite well with natural implements (flints, bones, etc) for thousands of years before technology like metal tools came along.

There are many natural resources in our oceans that could have been exploited by a suitably intelligent creature - bones, stones, shells (for cutting, etc). There may even be enough naturally occurring metals in nodules on the sea floor to permit a rudimentary metal-based society to evolve.

Obviously such a species might never evolve into a high-tech society since the presence of water does impede the use of fire a little :-), and, as a result, no matter how tempting dry land would seem to them, they might not be able to develop the technology to be able to breath out of water.

TravisM
2005-Mar-17, 02:39 AM
Not to mention, having, say, an ice barrier to shield the stars, would they end up with any physics capable of describing the "entire" universe? Might an advanced civilization live under the ice on europa and think that the universe was nothing more than the sphere of water they could circumnavigate?

Tacitus
2005-Mar-17, 04:28 AM
Not to mention, having, say, an ice barrier to shield the stars, would they end up with any physics capable of describing the "entire" universe? Might an advanced civilization live under the ice on europa and think that the universe was nothing more than the sphere of water they could circumnavigate?

yeah, interesting to speculate. I think in that case, the ice would be a rough and changing "terrain" that the civilization would be able to examine up close (unless water pressure or temperatures were a problem) and they would discover that they could burrow into it. Eventually someone would want to do some deep digging to see what was beyond and may eventually break through. Imagine the surprise!

snatchertas
2006-Mar-29, 12:21 AM
A strong argument against the possibility of an underwater civilization is not the HOW but rather the WHY. It is highly inprobable that an underwater form of life will develop problem solving and tool making skills, as the environment favours evolution rather than instant solutions to unpredictable environmental situations. Human beings, for instance, developed problem solving skills due to the difficulty of roaming the land, and the scarcity of the food. Underwater creatures, as well as birds, can move in 3 directions in search of food, and this leads to evolution towards free movement and food collection, rather than brains that created bridges, boats, hunting weapons etc.

A few instances of technological advancements that cannot take place underwater, apart from the obvious fire, is controlable chemical reactions, combustion, electricity, magnetism, glue, glass production (optics), to name a few.

captain swoop
2006-Mar-29, 12:20 PM
Electricity already exists in some fish and Eels, I am sure the advanced Octopus would find some way of utilising it. Why not glue?

Wolverine
2006-Mar-30, 12:38 AM
Moved from Against the Mainstream to General Science.

dgavin
2006-Mar-30, 03:29 PM
A few instances of technological advancements that cannot take place underwater, apart from the obvious fire, is controlable chemical reactions, combustion, electricity, magnetism, glue, glass production (optics), to name a few.

A few things on this.

Chemical Reactions underwater are highly controlable. Most notably the supersaturation of water with a substance to cause crystaline formation growth. (I'm currently growing a Geode like crystal formation at home using noting but sugar and water, it's practice for going to more complex things)

It's quite likely an advanced technology could be built using a combination of hydrocarbons, advanced pizo-electiric, conducting, and semi-conducting crystals, with sonic waves (energy) as the basis of the power source. As some crystal formations incorporate water itself into it's matrix, those with salts and metals make perfect conductors and resistors, and wouldn't degrade from dying out like they do in air (which is why we don't use them, other then for growing experiments)

Whos needs to melt sand to make glass when you can grow a huge crystal thats has a large X,Y growth rate, but neligable Z growth rate. For Optics the growth rates could be controled to consentrate growth at one point, and limit it outwards, or vis versa.

Romanus
2006-Mar-30, 06:00 PM
I think it's possible, but I also go with the general party line that any underwater civilization's advancement will be severely curtailed with respect to aboveground ones, for earlier-mentioned reasons. Then again, humans are notoriously unimaginative when it comes to unknowns.