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View Full Version : Doodler & Damburger's B5 Spoiler ridden debate.



Doodler
2005-Mar-15, 10:47 PM
Novel idea, I'm game :)






Picking fights? Check the backstory. Humans fired first. "Bit too cocky" is a gross understatement. Way back when, seeing "In the Beginning" for the first time, watching the encounter between Humans and Minbari was like a checklist of all the things you can do in a first contact situation that will get you killed. The Minbari didn't pick that fight, Humans did.



Yeah, because approaching an alien ship with your weapons pointed at them is a really friendly act. What happened was a tragic accident, yet the allededgly intelligent and advanced Minbari go on a rampage because of it, even after they found out what happened. Had the religious caste not found some quite selfish motives for stopping the war - they would've wiped out an entire species. Apparantly the appropriate punishment for manslaughter is the genocide of the offenders people.

Gotta be careful assigning human moral values to nonhumans. Its one of the key lessons of the series. The Religious caste hated the idea and tried to stop the war, eventually succeeding as the Minbari fleet orbited the Earth. The warrior caste could have cared less.




Heh, kick'em when they're down, eh? The Centauri had been in decline for 200 years by the time B5 came about. How long does a race have to be on the skids before being forgiven? One thing to keep in mind about Londo in particular, in the pilot, part of the reason he supports G'Kar's little stunt with the commander stems from blackmail information about his ancestors during the occupation. In 200 years, it seems that what was once a proud tradition of brutal subjugation had become something of an embarassment.


Well that changes doesn't it? Its not a matter of kicking them while they are down, I'm merely stating that because of their nature I don't like them much - regardless of whether they are in a position to demonstrate their nature at any point. There are of course exceptions to the rule - Vir is a good bloke and Emporer Turhan seemed reasonably decent.

I get the feeling I won't convince you though, you're just too purple.

The Centauri are a nice little exposition on the strengths and flaws of absolute monarchies. You have your good generations, you have your bad generations, and you have generations you'd rather not acknowledge a hundred years down the line.

Charly
2005-Mar-15, 11:03 PM
For me the Long Twighlight Struggle would have been the best hour of TV ever produced, if it didnt have a really boring B plot, which was not integral to the main storyline, as in say, Coming of Shadows, the Fall of Night, or Severed Dreams.

You Have the Narn Fleet getting wiped by the Shadows
Londos Refelection, which really sums him up.
G'Kar asking for sanctury.
And then the finest moment in the series...
After being publicly humilated by Londo, in fronyt of all of the amabasadors, G'Kar stands and makes the most moving of speeches.

This series, for all of its flaws, rally is the best series ever made, and I dont expect to see anything else as well written ever again.

Damburger
2005-Mar-15, 11:05 PM
Gotta be careful assigning human moral values to nonhumans. Its one of the key lessons of the series. The Religious caste hated the idea and tried to stop the war, eventually succeeding as the Minbari fleet orbited the Earth. The warrior caste could have cared less.


Not commiting mass murder isn't a value particular to humans. Minbari even express such sentiments, although the war with Earth was an example of them not putting it into practice. Lashing out as they did is idiotic. No amount of dead humans could bring their leader back. They are just spoilt children with mass drivers.

The religious caste are no better. They can sit there and spew moral philosophies only because the sociopathic warrior caste will protect them.


The Centauri are a nice little exposition on the strengths and flaws of absolute monarchies. You have your good generations, you have your bad generations, and you have generations you'd rather not acknowledge a hundred years down the line.

I fail to see the strength of the Centauri or the absolute monarchies they represent. Attacking and exploiting less advanced cultures is the only way such societies ever gain power: on an equal footing more egalitarian societies tend to triumph. In my book, bullies are not strong. Yes, this is coming from an Englishman :P Where JMS was aiming his metaphors when he created the Centauri is not lost on me.

I stick by my Narns. Yes, they made mistakes, but paid for them horrendously. G'Kar especially but most Narns to some extent. Their loyalty to their friends and family is and admirable quality I rarely see in the real world.

Charly
2005-Mar-15, 11:37 PM
Every race in B5 commits atrocities of some kind, even some of the minor ones.

Damburger
2005-Mar-15, 11:41 PM
Every race in B5 commits atrocities of some kind, even some of the minor ones.

Yes, but some learn and some do not.

The great thing about the Narns is their capacity to understand their own flaws and change.

Charly
2005-Mar-15, 11:47 PM
Every race in B5 commits atrocities of some kind, even some of the minor ones.

Yes, but some learn and some do not.

The great thing about the Narns is their capacity to understand their own flaws and change.

But did they?

It was all down to the revelation by Gkar which was induced by Kosh, although he was ready to forgive the Centauri when the Emperor visited. I think taht may have pushed him over the edge at the time.

I dont think they would have survived as a race, had G'Kar not inspired them.

If they had eventually pushed the Centauro off again, or were freed by the Alliance, I think the circle of hate would have continued.

Damburger
2005-Mar-16, 12:00 AM
But did they?

It was all down to the revelation by Gkar which was induced by Kosh, although he was ready to forgive the Centauri when the Emperor visited. I think taht may have pushed him over the edge at the time.

I dont think they would have survived as a race, had G'Kar not inspired them.

If they had eventually pushed the Centauro off again, or were freed by the Alliance, I think the circle of hate would have continued.

I'm not sure. Remember the chap with the sword who escaped from the Streib ship with Sheridan? He showed a similar capacity to change for the better. Also the Narns who worked for security on B5. They did this without leaning on the Centauri who were murdering their friends on Narn.

I might be just rambling. I've just always felt I'd prefer to go down the pub with Narns than any of the other aliens in B5 (Although I suppose nobody would push in front of a Vorlon at the bar).

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-16, 12:12 AM
Not commiting mass murder isn't a value particular to humans. Minbari even express such sentiments, although the war with Earth was an example of them not putting it into practice. Lashing out as they did is idiotic. No amount of dead humans could bring their leader back. They are just spoilt children with mass drivers.


I don't think that was the point. From their point of view, they had peacefully honored our ships, leaving their defenses down and we attacked. We were dangerous, insane and unreasoning creatures that needed to be wiped out before we could cause serious damage. Of course, it was all a huge mistake on both sides, but that's what made it such a perfect tragedy.

Damburger
2005-Mar-16, 12:22 AM
I don't think that was the point. From their point of view, they had peacefully honored our ships, leaving their defenses down and we attacked. We were dangerous, insane and unreasoning creatures that needed to be wiped out before we could cause serious damage. Of course, it was all a huge mistake on both sides, but that's what made it such a perfect tragedy.

This highlights how the Minari are racist. They suffer one tradegy when contacting a species (and they did later realise it was partly their own fault) and decide that species needs wiping out. They considered other species inferior before that as well.

Moose
2005-Mar-16, 12:25 AM
Not commiting mass murder isn't a value particular to humans. Minbari even express such sentiments, although the war with Earth was an example of them not putting it into practice. Lashing out as they did is idiotic. No amount of dead humans could bring their leader back. They are just spoilt children with mass drivers.

I don't think that was the point. From their point of view, they had peacefully honored our ships, leaving their defenses down and we attacked. We were dangerous, insane and unreasoning creatures that needed to be wiped out before we could cause serious damage. Of course, it was all a huge mistake on both sides, but that's what made it such a perfect tragedy.

Agreed. Heck, in Western Terrain culture, discharging weapons (21 gun salute, 11 gun naval salute, salute to the flag (harbor admiral), etc) is an honor with the potential of causing the same sort of misunderstanding as the actions taken by the Minbari Warrior Caste.

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-16, 12:57 AM
This highlights how the Minari are racist. They suffer one tradegy when contacting a species (and they did later realise it was partly their own fault) and decide that species needs wiping out. They considered other species inferior before that as well.

Yes, they did make wrong assumptions about our species, but I wouldn't call it "racist." Racism assumes that one is making unfair statements about a group of the same species because of trivial genetic differences. We weren't the same species, they had no reason to assume we would be anything like them. From their point of view, they had good evidence that we were not rational, but had the potential of being very dangerous if not controlled. I didn't say they were right, but that I could understand how they came to their conclusion.

As for a superiority complex, aside from the First Ones, the Minbari were the most technologically advanced species in known space. Only the Centauri even came close and they stayed well clear of them even at the height of their power. That was part of the problem too: It had long been known to most species that you don't mess with the Minbari, yet this species with pathetic technology just starts shooting despite their reputation.

Damburger
2005-Mar-16, 01:07 AM
Yes, they did make wrong assumptions about our species, but I wouldn't call it "racist." Racism assumes that one is making unfair statements about a group of the same species because of trivial genetic differences. We weren't the same species, they had no reason to assume we would be anything like them. From their point of view, they had good evidence that we were not rational, but had the potential of being very dangerous if not controlled. I didn't say they were right, but that I could understand how they came to their conclusion.


The Minbari are constantly racist. Remember when they as much as put Delenn on trial for trying to marry Sheriden? And that Neroon thought the best compliment he could give to Sinclar was 'you think like a Minbari'.



As for a superiority complex, aside from the First Ones, the Minbari were the most technologically advanced species in known space. Only the Centauri even came close and they stayed well clear of them even at the height of their power. That was part of the problem too: It had long been known to most species that you don't mess with the Minbari, yet this species with pathetic technology just starts shooting despite their reputation.

That excuses the immediate response (maybe), not years of war. Besides, the Minbari were never the most technologically advanced species in known space until the first ones left. They were in contact with the Vorlons and knew about the Shadows for all of their recent history.

Their attidute problem can explain their actions, but it can't excuse them.

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-16, 01:47 AM
The Minbari are constantly racist. Remember when they as much as put Delenn on trial for trying to marry Sheriden? And that Neroon thought the best compliment he could give to Sinclar was 'you think like a Minbari'.


We'll just have to disagree here. You cannot assume another species will act or think the same way as a human (not that humans are that consistent ...). It is dangerous to do that - witness the recent chimpanzee accident. The Minbari are not only another species, but they aren't even from the same world! I would not expect the Minbari to assume we are like them until they learn different.

As for marriage ... how do you think most people would react if somebody wanted to marry a Gorilla? EVEN IF that Gorilla was as smart as a human?





As for a superiority complex, aside from the First Ones, the Minbari were the most technologically advanced species in known space.

That excuses the immediate response (maybe), not years of war. Besides, the Minbari were never the most technologically advanced species in known space until the first ones left. They were in contact with the Vorlons and knew about the Shadows for all of their recent history.


I wasn't trying to excuse them, anymore than the idiotic attack or arrogance shown by the humans. It just doesn't show them as being inherently "bad." They messed up badly. That was the tragedy.

On the technology issue: Vorlons and Shadows are also First Ones. Aside from them and the other remnents of First Ones, they were the most advanced of the species operating in known space. At least, known by the humans. Granted, there were artifacts left behind by other very advanced species and in "Crusade" when humans explore at the edge of known space, there are hints of others.

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-16, 06:15 AM
May I jump in here? I don't think the minari are racist, but perhaps the term ethnocentric would be apt. The minbari are very rigid and structured. They remind me of the Krikkits from the Douglas Adams book Life, the Universe, and Everything. THey do what they do because of inertia. They don't often go out of their way to start trouble, but they also don't recognize trouble until it falls on their noses and starts wriggling.

The Centauri may be more truly racist with their treatment of the Narn. But I think the Vorlons and Shadows take the cake here. The Vorlons and Shadows both committed serial genocide and adapted other races to serve their ideologies. But the Earth Alliance was also racist in it's anti-alien policies. Not to mention the behaviors (and outcomes) of the Dilgar, Markab, and Hyack races...

JonnyWishbone
2005-Mar-16, 11:39 AM
This is terrific. A couple of observations:

1) The Minbari weren't aware that their active sensors jammed the sensors of the primitive Hu-Mans when they approached with their gunports open, meaning that humanity couldn't figure out that the weapons weren't charged. However,

2) Given that the Vorlons had fairly comprehensive knowledge of everything that was going to happen up to the moment that Sinclair went back into the past, and given that Kosh and Bad Kosh were both hanging with Dukhat and then hiding in his room while the events leading up to the EM War and after were going on, I've come to think that the Vorlons (obsessive, order-obsessed beings that they were) made sure history happened the way it was supposed to happen by making sure it happened that way.

I realize it's a bit of a loophole, but given how the Vorlons were presented (with the exception of Kosh, that big, loveable energy-squid), telepathically forcing key Minbari to be unreasonable doesn't seem...unreasonable. Especially when the events of The Gathering only make sense in retrospect (once we've seen Vorlons in action outside their suits) if we assume that Kosh pretended to be poisoned because that's what happened, even though poisoning a creature whose energy output goes off the scale and who can shift between material and energy forms at will always seems a bit unlikely...but only after the Vorlons were developed more as the series progressed.

Cheers, Jon

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-17, 06:58 AM
I realize it's a bit of a loophole, but given how the Vorlons were presented (with the exception of Kosh, that big, loveable energy-squid), telepathically forcing key Minbari to be unreasonable doesn't seem...unreasonable. Especially when the events of The Gathering only make sense in retrospect (once we've seen Vorlons in action outside their suits) if we assume that Kosh pretended to be poisoned because that's what happened, even though poisoning a creature whose energy output goes off the scale and who can shift between material and energy forms at will always seems a bit unlikely...but only after the Vorlons were developed more as the series progressed.Say that again, I'm not sure I followed. I think JMS intended for the poisoning incident to be faked and for the Vorlons to be what he eventually revealed them to be. In the Pilot, Kosh's first words to Sinclair were "Entilzah Valen" which we didn't come to fully understand until the middle of season 3.

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-17, 07:10 AM
Oh, more evidence that the Centauri are racist. In Parliament of Dreams Vir explains that the Centauri eradicated a rival species they called the Xon.

JonnyWishbone
2005-Mar-17, 07:43 AM
Yeah, that was some tortured late-night syntax. Sinclair going back in time means that the Vorlons know a lot about what's going to happen right up to War Without End. If they staged the poisoning because they knew it was going to happen (even though Kosh couldn't actually be poisoned), then they may have made sure the Earth-Minbari War happened the way it was supposed to. Everything from Minbari First Contact protocols to Minbari sensor technology to Minbari xenophobia could have been tweaked by the Vorlons because, well, they're the Vorlons. They like to manage things.

Cheers, Jon

Damburger
2005-Mar-17, 09:05 AM
Yeah, that was some tortured late-night syntax. Sinclair going back in time means that the Vorlons know a lot about what's going to happen right up to War Without End. If they staged the poisoning because they knew it was going to happen (even though Kosh couldn't actually be poisoned), then they may have made sure the Earth-Minbari War happened the way it was supposed to. Everything from Minbari First Contact protocols to Minbari sensor technology to Minbari xenophobia could have been tweaked by the Vorlons because, well, they're the Vorlons. They like to manage things.

Cheers, Jon

Even I'm not this much of a Vorlonophobe :lol:

I would suggest the poisoning was real, but that it was either done by the shadows or the vorlon government, both of whom had the technology.

JonnyWishbone
2005-Mar-17, 09:35 AM
Oh, I'm not a Vorlonophobe -- but the Shadows and Vorlons present two extremes (chaos=progress; order=progress) that have to reconciled. Based on what we see of Vorlons in the series, they like the planning. Well, and the fortune-cookie utterances. And order. Minbari society is rearranged by Sinclair, who knows what it's supposed to look like because he's seen and read about what it's supposed to look like. The triluminary detects Minbari souls, except that it really detects the human genetic material of Sinclair/Valen. Heck, Kosh and OtherKosh know that Delenn will pick the right Starfury when they say "The truth points to itself" because...she does. Everything in B5 is suspect in terms of normal cause-and-effect until War Without End Pt. 2.

Only after the future can't be "seen" can the long cycle of Shadow Wars end. And Kosh becomes a positive Lucifer figure in all this -- he rebels against the plan, fights against his own kind, and even makes sure that Lyta will know what to do should the Thirdspace gate or any of the other Vorlon mistakes show up. In short, Kosh rocks.

Cheers, Jon

Damburger
2005-Mar-17, 10:01 AM
Oh, I'm not a Vorlonophobe -- but the Shadows and Vorlons present two extremes (chaos=progress; order=progress) that have to reconciled. Based on what we see of Vorlons in the series, they like the planning. Well, and the fortune-cookie utterances. And order. Minbari society is rearranged by Sinclair, who knows what it's supposed to look like because he's seen and read about what it's supposed to look like. The triluminary detects Minbari souls, except that it really detects the human genetic material of Sinclair/Valen. Heck, Kosh and OtherKosh know that Delenn will pick the right Starfury when they say "The truth points to itself" because...she does. Everything in B5 is suspect in terms of normal cause-and-effect until War Without End Pt. 2.


This raises the possibility that the Shadows were provoked into the conflict because the Vorlons were screwing around with closed time loops. I can't imagine the Shadows being big fans of determinism.



Only after the future can't be "seen" can the long cycle of Shadow Wars end. And Kosh becomes a positive Lucifer figure in all this -- he rebels against the plan, fights against his own kind, and even makes sure that Lyta will know what to do should the Thirdspace gate or any of the other Vorlon mistakes show up. In short, Kosh rocks.

Cheers, Jon

Exactly, so Kosh must actually be a Narn in an encounter suit. QED.

JonnyWishbone
2005-Mar-17, 11:04 AM
Actually, it's entirely possible that the Shadows were provoked into the whole 'let's get Sheridan to Zha'dum' thingie because of the closed time loop that persisted for the thousand years from Valen's appearance to WWE. They obviously weren't provoked into the entire cycle because it had gone on before that, but the Shadows, not being dummies, must have figured out something was up even if that realization started with the construction of the Babylon stations. Hey, wait a minute, these designs look familiar! The Vorlons were table-talking!

Narns rock too, btw.

Cheers, Jon

Doodler
2005-Mar-17, 01:04 PM
Actually, it's entirely possible that the Shadows were provoked into the whole 'let's get Sheridan to Zha'dum' thingie because of the closed time loop that persisted for the thousand years from Valen's appearance to WWE. They obviously weren't provoked into the entire cycle because it had gone on before that, but the Shadows, not being dummies, must have figured out something was up even if that realization started with the construction of the Babylon stations. Hey, wait a minute, these designs look familiar! The Vorlons were table-talking!

Narns rock too, btw.

Cheers, Jon

If I remember from War without End pt 2, they did have proverbial kittens when B4 was nearing completion.

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-17, 10:12 PM
If I remember from War without End pt 2, they did have proverbial kittens when B4 was nearing completion.

Yes, and there were the visions from the alternate timeline where B5 was being destroyed because the Shadows had destroyed B4 before it could be sent in time. Aren't time loops fun?

Van Rijn
2005-Mar-17, 10:17 PM
Oh, more evidence that the Centauri are racist. In Parliament of Dreams Vir explains that the Centauri eradicated a rival species they called the Xon.

Racist? No. Speciest? Sure. Humans aren't immune to that either. But I'd want to know more about the war before I would condemn them. Perhaps the Centauri were the bad guys, but perhaps it was a "Do or Die" situation.

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-18, 12:14 AM
Yeah, that was some tortured late-night syntax. Sinclair going back in time means that the Vorlons know a lot about what's going to happen right up to War Without End. If they staged the poisoning because they knew it was going to happen (even though Kosh couldn't actually be poisoned), then they may have made sure the Earth-Minbari War happened the way it was supposed to. Everything from Minbari First Contact protocols to Minbari sensor technology to Minbari xenophobia could have been tweaked by the Vorlons because, well, they're the Vorlons. They like to manage things.

Cheers, Jon

Even I'm not this much of a Vorlonophobe :lol:

I would suggest the poisoning was real, but that it was either done by the shadows or the vorlon government, both of whom had the technology.Even if the poisoning was real, Kosh had to know he would survive it because he dies (mostly) in Interludes and Examinations, right before Sinclair comes to B5 on the War Without End two parter. Kinda makes you wonder if this isn't why Ulkesh (the other Kosh) is so hardcore in later episodes... because he is afraid of dying or because he thinks he is finally free of Kosh's authority (such as it was).

Charly
2005-Mar-18, 10:30 PM
In the Pilot, Kosh's first words to Sinclair were "Entilzah Valen" which we didn't come to fully understand until the middle of season 3.

Not so.

In the original version of the pilot, he did not say this.

Only in the DVD version, which was completely re-edited and re-scored from scratch by JMS.

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-19, 07:16 AM
In the Pilot, Kosh's first words to Sinclair were "Entilzah Valen" which we didn't come to fully understand until the middle of season 3.

Not so.

In the original version of the pilot, he did not say this.

Only in the DVD version, which was completely re-edited and re-scored from scratch by JMS.I never saw the original airing. I thought it was also in the airings on TNT and SFC, but I could be wrong. If it's true then you may be right about it not being throught through ahead of time. I'll have to go listen to the Commentary to find out of JMS says anything about it.

Doodler
2005-Mar-19, 04:12 PM
I saw a rebroadcast of The Gathering before the DVDs were even a consideration that had that line in it.

Charly
2005-Mar-20, 12:28 AM
I saw a rebroadcast of The Gathering before the DVDs were even a consideration that had that line in it.

Yes, the re-edited version was made for TNT before the 5th season was aired.

The original version it almost completely different, and the re-edit is vastly superior.

The "Entilza Valen" line was added to the re-edit, which makes it look as if it is great backwards continuity.

It would have made the whole plot twist in what was to have been the last ever episode pretty easy to guess at a very early stage.

AndrewGPaul
2005-Mar-20, 11:32 PM
Every race in B5 commits atrocities of some kind, even some of the minor ones.

Yes, but some learn and some do not.

The great thing about the Narns is their capacity to understand their own flaws and change.

But did they?

It was all down to the revelation by Gkar which was induced by Kosh, although he was ready to forgive the Centauri when the Emperor visited. I think taht may have pushed him over the edge at the time.

I dont think they would have survived as a race, had G'Kar not inspired them.

In the long term, they don't. At least, the Centauri definitely don't, I think the Narns don't either (see the commentary to Deconstruction of Falling Stars, at the end of the episode, as the human enters his encounter suit)

Moose
2005-Mar-21, 12:25 AM
The original version it almost completely different, and the re-edit is vastly superior.

Oh yeah? I have both versions on DVD, but I haven't watched the re-edit. I know what I'm watching tonight. =D> Thanks for the tip.

Moose
2005-Mar-21, 02:30 AM
Hey! In the pilot, isn't that the guy who played Morden as the tech in Corwin's spot on the CNC?

Jpax2003
2005-Mar-21, 02:41 AM
Hey! In the pilot, isn't that the guy who played Morden as the tech in Corwin's spot on the CNC?Yeah, but it's not Morden, it's, um, his non-evil twin brother. JMS said they liked him so much they asked him to join the cast in a more important role.

Moose
2005-Mar-21, 02:48 AM
Hey! In the pilot, isn't that the guy who played Morden as the tech in Corwin's spot on the CNC?Yeah, but it's not Morden, it's, um, his non-evil twin brother. JMS said they liked him so much they asked him to join the cast in a more important role.

Just as well. The guy who played Morden does evil better than just about anybody, and the guy who played Corwin could be dorky enough to be endearing. (Think the "love bat" scene from the Thirdspace OAV.)

So what do you want? (muahahaha :wink: )

Metricyard
2005-Mar-21, 03:23 AM
Hey! In the pilot, isn't that the guy who played Morden as the tech in Corwin's spot on the CNC?Yeah, but it's not Morden, it's, um, his non-evil twin brother. JMS said they liked him so much they asked him to join the cast in a more important role.

Just as well. The guy who played Morden does evil better than just about anybody, and the guy who played Corwin could be dorky enough to be endearing. (Think the "love bat" scene from the Thirdspace OAV.)

So what do you want? (muahahaha :wink: )

Morden was a great villian. I loved how Vir always seem to stand up to him though. He didn't have any fear of Morden at all. The scenes with the two of them always cracked me up.

Lycus
2005-Mar-21, 04:35 AM
Morden was a great villian. I loved how Vir always seem to stand up to him though. He didn't have any fear of Morden at all. The scenes with the two of them always cracked me up.
I wished that they didn't heal him up though. I liked "scaly Morden," and wanted him to stay that way until his death. :)

CTM VT 2K
2005-Mar-21, 10:13 AM
Morden was a great villian. I loved how Vir always seem to stand up to him though. He didn't have any fear of Morden at all. The scenes with the two of them always cracked me up.
I wished that they didn't heal him up though. I liked "scaly Morden," and wanted him to stay that way until his death. :)

Yeah, but Moden had to be healed up in order for Vir's wish to be fulfilled.

"I want to live just long enough to be there when they put your head up on a pike, as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes, and wave - like this." Vir waves his fingers at him. "Can you and your associates arrange that for me?"

It just wouldn't have been as good had it been a blistered and burned Morden - for whom death would have almost been welcome - to have his head chopped off and stuck on a pike in the garden. Much better this way.

I wonder how long that head stayed on the pike? I know Vir wouldn't take it down while he was emperor... maybe it does stay up there for 10 generations, but there wouldn't be much left.

peter eldergill
2005-Mar-22, 03:46 AM
Wow. I had forgotten that whole episode with Vir/Morden

I always liked how Vir was a joke and then turned into a very thoughtful and powerful character. One of my favourites

Pete

Doodler
2005-Mar-22, 03:29 PM
Wow. I had forgotten that whole episode with Vir/Morden

I always liked how Vir was a joke and then turned into a very thoughtful and powerful character. One of my favourites

Pete

Vir was only one example, the real strength of Babylon 5 was always the ongoing evolution of the characters.

Mr Gorsky
2005-Mar-22, 04:37 PM
If I am allowed to slightly interject here on the issue of the "Entil'zha Valen" line in the re-edit of The Gathering ...

IIRC correctly JMS said that this was added into the re-edit because it was no longer a spoiler for those who had already seen the show through to the end of S3 (it was re-editted at the end of S4 when the show moved to TNT). At the time the pilot was originally made, they did not even have a voice for Kosh. Let's face it, it would have destroyed huge chunks of early B5's mystery if that line had been in the original version.

Also, on the re-edit itself - it wasn't made for DVD, it was made for TNT. When they bought the rights to the first 4 seasons and committed to the fifth, they were aware of JMS' long-standing unhappiness with the original cut of the pilot (his inexperience as an Exec Producer caused him to defer too much to the views of the original Director rather than stand up to him when he dropped out all the character stuff in the original cut), and offered him the money to go back and re-edit it the way he wanted it, at the same time as they gave him the money to make In The Beginning and Thirdspace.

The re-edit included; extending and adding back in some scenes dropped/cut by Richard Compton (the Director), taking other scenes out, dropping Takashima's looped dialogue (WB asked them to loop all her dialogue because they thought she sounded too "harsh"), and having the whole music soundtrack re-scored by Chris Franke to fit the sound of the rest of the show.

TNT then used the premiere of the re-edit to help launch their re-run of the show from the beginning.

JMS considers the re-edit the definitive version, therefore this is the one that has appeared on DVD.

Charly
2005-Mar-25, 11:34 PM
And as I said, the re-edit is so much more enjoyable.

Its a shame they cut the "freak gallery" though.

When Sinclair shows Lyta the alien sector, with load of wierd looking aliens in cages. It made me laugh every time. So aliens dont care much for pivacy, then....?

JohnOwens
2005-Mar-26, 01:38 AM
The Minbari are constantly racist. Remember when they as much as put Delenn on trial for trying to marry Sheriden? And that Neroon thought the best compliment he could give to Sinclar was 'you think like a Minbari'.
A bit late to reply to you now, seeing as how you seem to be banned and all, but....
It was "you talk like a Minbari." And I didn't think of it as being the best compliment he could come up with, but just an observation of Sinclair's nature. He certainly wasn't trying to suck up to Sinclair at that point, or anything like that.

CTM VT 2K
2005-Mar-28, 08:34 AM
One of my favorite exchanges was sometime in the 2nd season, I believe. Vir and Lennier are sitting side-by-side at a bar commiserating. They're trading statements about their respective bosses that could easily apply to both Londo and Delenn. At the end of the sequence, they both say together "It makes me nervous." Then then pause, look at each other and one of them says "Same time tomorrow?"

There is SO much going on in this show - you have to pay attention to all of it. I like the way JMS talks about the Checkov quote (The Playwright, not the Star Trek Character) "If a gun is fired in Act III, Scene 2, it must be seen above the mantlepiece in Act I, Scene 1." or words to that effect. He actively works to give clues and hints as to where things will be going - despite it being set in space, nothing takes place in a vacuum. I also like how he says that each season he would (metaphorically) pull out a gun and say to himself "Ok, who can I kill and still pull this off?" Unless you've seen it, you have no way of knowing for sure who is going to survive even a given episode, let alone the series run.

There is not enough of that type of storytelling on TV. There's too much wrapped up in egos and paychecks. When a Major Character leaves an ER or a Law and Order, it's known well in advance, it's only a question of how they go. JMS killed off an entire spieces near the end of Season 2. He replaced the lead at the start of the 2nd season. The only two characters I gave a pass to in my figuring were Londo and G'kar - only because their death was known (by prophesy/preminition/whatever) to be some 20 years in the future. Nobody else got a pass from me on first viewing.

Kizarvexis
2005-Mar-30, 01:29 PM
And as I said, the re-edit is so much more enjoyable.

Its a shame they cut the "freak gallery" though.

When Sinclair shows Lyta the alien sector, with load of wierd looking aliens in cages. It made me laugh every time. So aliens dont care much for pivacy, then....?

Well, jms commented this on the 'net. I pulled this quote from The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5. (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/lurker.html)


The alien section looked like a zoo!

First, we decided that wasn't a right look for the alien sector, and that's the corridor we blew up at the end. But the reason it was designed that way is important. Your reaction -- don't the aliens have any privacy? -- is a very human, and specifically a very *western* point of view. Our feeling at the time was, why should alien quarters look at all like human quarters? Shouldn't they have a different perspective than typical Western-style hotels? (In some degree, the quaters were patterned after Japanese mini-hotels, where you get basically a slightly larger coffin-like setup, which you crawl into like a torpedo tube, with a window at one end, which has a curtain, a TV over your head, and so on. What we discovered is that many people ask for more alien aliens, but when we delivered on that, were asked why these things weren't more like what we expect, why aren't they like human quarters? It's really a losing battle.)
The other point on this is that if you look closely, there are back areas accessible to residents, which can in particular be seen in the insectoid/antennae'd character's quarters. The idea was that it would be sort of a front porch, where for lack of much else to do, you'd sit out on the porch, watching the passing parade.

But the reaction was less than favorable, we had to keep explaining that this proceeds from an alien POV, and so our alien quarters are more like human quarters now, minus the alternate atmosphere stuff. I'm still not quite sure what to think of this.

B5 is an awesome series and Crusade was shaping up to be pretty interesting too.

Kizarvexis