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Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:15 AM
Evolved into more intelligence dino's?

Musashi
2005-Mar-17, 07:23 AM
Yes, but they didn't.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:28 AM
Could they have evolved into a human-like intelligence

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:32 AM
Is it true there were some dino's that were about to enter the path to intelligence right before they got hit with that asteroid?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 07:34 AM
No, dinos weren't human. Could they have continued to evolve as dinosaurs if they weren't killed off? Probably.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:40 AM
I mean could they have possibly possesed human-like intelligence?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 07:41 AM
Is it true there were some dino's that were about to enter the path to intelligence right before they got hit with that asteroid?Define intelligence P.R. What are you looking for? Reptilian intelligence? .. Watch Sliders. That fiction has as much speculation as you'd get here .. probably more. Reptiles are cold-blooded and inferior to mammals IMO.

Edited to add: My zoological wife said dinos weren't reptiles so .. bottom line: #-o .. don't listen to moi when it comes to Dino :wink:

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:43 AM
Why the need to attack me?

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-17, 07:44 AM
I mean could they have possibly possesed human-like intelligence?
It's conceivable, but evolution is blind. A very smart animal is not necessarily "on the path" to human-like intelligence. Chimps, for example, have the most human-like intelligence of any non-human animal, but that doesn't mean they're in the process of turning into humans.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:47 AM
Thats true, but theres a possibility, although not a probability?

If we (humans) were to go instinct, who would have the best chance of taking our place as become an intelligent species/sentient beings?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 07:48 AM
Why the need to attack me?Who's attacking you? :roll:

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-17, 07:49 AM
Is it true there were some dino's that were about to enter the path to intelligence right before they got hit with that asteroid?Define intelligence P.R. What are you looking for? Reptilian intelligence? .. Watch Sliders. That fiction has as much speculation as you'd get here .. probably more. Reptiles are cold-blooded and inferior to mammals IMO.
It's awfully hard to justify a judgement of "inferiority" in evolutionary terms. As I just said, evolution is blind. I'll grant you, though, that the human brain is an energy hog that requires constant fuel, which may not be very compatible with the eating habits of most cold-blooded animals.

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 07:52 AM
Did you ever tell the fine BABBers why you ask about universes/dimensions and such P.R. ad nauseum? If I wanted to attack you, I'd tell them why you do .. I know.

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-17, 07:53 AM
Thats true, but theres a possibility, although not a probability?

If we (humans) were to go instinct, who would have the best chance of taking our place as become an intelligent species/sentient beings?
One of the apes, perhaps, but quite possibly nothing. Life existed on Earth for a long, long time without human-like intelligence appearing. The dinosaurs got along without it for far longer than we've been around. So there doesn't really seem to be a need for human-like intelligence to exist at all.

Edited to add a word.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 07:57 AM
Did you ever tell the fine BABBers why you ask about universes/dimensions and such P.R. ad nauseum? If I wanted to attack you, I'd tell them why you do .. I know.

Who are you Mrs. Cleo all of a sudden?, I dont really care what you do in fact I encourage you to tell all these fine people why I ask and speculate about those stuff to a nauseating degree...lol @ you threatening me

W.F. Tomba, are we "one" of the apes? and dont you think that once a specie has gotten a foothold on intelligence that it will become more and more intelligent?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:05 AM
Did you ever tell the fine BABBers why you ask about universes/dimensions and such P.R. ad nauseum? If I wanted to attack you, I'd tell them why you do .. I know.

Who are you Mrs. Cleo all of a sudden?, I dont really care what you do in fact I encourage you to tell all these fine people why I ask and speculate about those stuff to a nauseating degree...lol @ you threatening me

W.F. Tomba, are we "one" of the apes?One word: reincarnation heh, I'm "threatening" you now P.R.? Yeah right. :roll: Some people have memories.. it's in your posting resume for those that don't. Spare me the accusations - you took this there P.R., not me .. I'm looking forward to your next question myself. :wink:

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:06 AM
I dont believe in reincarnation anymore, I looked deeper into and found it not believable

[-X

Edit: you act like the belief in reincarnation is some kind of disease that people should be ashamed about and hide it, you deserve a little smack in the forehead for that

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:08 AM
I dont believe in reincarnation anymore, I looked deeper into and found it not believable

[-XWhatever - Your accusations are baseless .. don't ask questions if you are too thin-skined to accept the answers, capice?

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-17, 08:08 AM
W.F. Tomba, are we "one" of the apes? and dont you think that once a specie has gotten a foothold on intelligence that it will become more and more intelligent?
I forget whether taxonomists include humans in the group of apes, but as far as I'm concerned we are. As for the second question, no. What I mean by "evolution is blind" is that species don't evolve on purpose or toward a goal; it's just something that happens to them. So a species could get right to the threshold of intelligence and then stop, or even become less intelligent.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:11 AM
Hmm...I see, so basically it could go either way.

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:11 AM
Edit: you act like the belief in reincarnation is some kind of disease that people should be ashamed about and hide it, you deserve a little smack in the forehead for thatI didn't say that. I'll be in Toronto in May so let me know if this isn't just more of your spiel. I'd love to see you smack me.

W.F. Tomba
2005-Mar-17, 08:11 AM
Did you ever tell the fine BABBers why you ask about universes/dimensions and such P.R. ad nauseum? If I wanted to attack you, I'd tell them why you do .. I know.

Who are you Mrs. Cleo all of a sudden?, I dont really care what you do in fact I encourage you to tell all these fine people why I ask and speculate about those stuff to a nauseating degree...lol @ you threatening me

W.F. Tomba, are we "one" of the apes?One word: reincarnation heh, I'm "threatening" you now P.R.? Yeah right. :roll: Some people have memories.. it's in your posting resume for those that don't. Spare me the accusations - you took this there P.R., not me .. I'm looking forward to your next question myself. :wink:
He could believe in the Great Pumpkin for all I care. How is this squabble relevant?

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:13 AM
I dont believe in reincarnation anymore, I looked deeper into and found it not believable

[-XWhatever - Your accusations are baseless .. don't ask questions if you are too thin-skined to accept the answers, capice?

No, not capisce

Every thread I start and that you reply in I get this feeling of mini-animosity from you, its not like I care but its just really annoying

If you dont like the topic, no one has a gun to your head...3 words for you, dont...click...it

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:14 AM
Did you ever tell the fine BABBers why you ask about universes/dimensions and such P.R. ad nauseum? If I wanted to attack you, I'd tell them why you do .. I know.

Who are you Mrs. Cleo all of a sudden?, I dont really care what you do in fact I encourage you to tell all these fine people why I ask and speculate about those stuff to a nauseating degree...lol @ you threatening me

W.F. Tomba, are we "one" of the apes?One word: reincarnation heh, I'm "threatening" you now P.R.? Yeah right. :roll: Some people have memories.. it's in your posting resume for those that don't. Spare me the accusations - you took this there P.R., not me .. I'm looking forward to your next question myself. :wink:
He could believe in the Great Pumpkin for all I care. How is this squabble relevant?To you .. or to me?

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:14 AM
Edit: you act like the belief in reincarnation is some kind of disease that people should be ashamed about and hide it, you deserve a little smack in the forehead for thatI didn't say that. I'll be in Toronto in May so let me know if this isn't just more of your spiel. I'd love to see you smack me.

Haha, Scarborough...I live near Scarborough Town Center...bring that

I aint even joking about this

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:16 AM
I dont believe in reincarnation anymore, I looked deeper into and found it not believable

[-XWhatever - Your accusations are baseless .. don't ask questions if you are too thin-skined to accept the answers, capice?

No, not capisce

Every thread I start and that you reply in I get this feeling of mini-animosity from you, its not like I care but its just really annoying

If you dont like the topic, no one has a gun to your head...3 words for you, dont...click...itMy input was initially sincere .. you can't edit what you want to hear (read) P.R.

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:17 AM
Edit: you act like the belief in reincarnation is some kind of disease that people should be ashamed about and hide it, you deserve a little smack in the forehead for thatI didn't say that. I'll be in Toronto in May so let me know if this isn't just more of your spiel. I'd love to see you smack me.

Haha, Scarborough...I live near Scarborough Town Center...bring that

I aint even joking about thisI'll meet you - I'll give you my intinerary via PM.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:17 AM
Enough about that

You talk alot of smack, Im serious about that May arrival here

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:18 AM
PM that to me

This dude thinkin Im playing around

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:19 AM
Good. read my last post - till then let's leave it off the board.

Don't ask questions if you can't take the answers.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:20 AM
Yeah you answered, but you also kind of took a shot right at the beggining that is what is pissing me off

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:21 AM
Yeah you answered, but you also kind of took a shot right at the beggining that is what is [bad word deleted] me offWhat did I say so wrong?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:24 AM
Well?

captain swoop
2005-Mar-17, 08:33 AM
Calm down folks, I can't think this kind of posting is allowed on the board.

As for your question about humans being Apes, of course we are. For all intents and purposes we are just big naked Chimps. Intelligence is aa accident. Evolution has no goal or direction. Any trait that offers an advantage will tend to be preserved. If it no longer offers an advantage there is no reason for it to be preserved. That isn't to say it will disappear.

As for superior snd inferior, all current lifeforms are equaly evolved. everything had the same ancestors.

dvb
2005-Mar-17, 08:48 AM
Wow, I thought I had a hot head.

Both of you have been here too long to be getting banned over this.

Please make up on here, and bring it over to FWIS (http://loresinger.com/FWIS/index.php) if you wish to continue the bickering. I'd hate to see a couple of decent members get let go over this. :-?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:49 AM
Calm down folks, I can't think this kind of posting is allowed on the board.It isn't. He took me there and if you ask him, he'll say I took him there. I'm not going to give a corny speech and apologize to the board and all .. I responded to what I felt was an unjustified accusation and he'll say he responded to an unjustified "shot." The BA will be the ultimate arbitrator in this, although if I wanted to mock him and his questions and felt the need to actually do it, I would have done a better job .. trust me.

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 08:58 AM
Wow, I thought I had a hot head.

Both of you have been here too long to be getting banned over this.

Please make up on here, and bring it over to FWIS (http://loresinger.com/FWIS/index.php) if you wish to continue the bickering. I'd hate to see a couple of decent members get let go over this. :-?I really don't want to get banned either but to tell you the truth if I have to walk on egg shells all the time it would happen in my case anyway. I wasn't trying to tease P.R., but don't ascribe to the "turn the other cheek" philosophy either. I have a right to defend myself and if the moderator finds that attitude incompatible with his board, well . it's his board - but it's my cheek or, in P.R.'s case .. my forehead.

dvb
2005-Mar-17, 09:10 AM
I really don't want to get banned either but to tell you the truth if I have to walk on egg shells all the time it would happen in my case anyway. I wasn't trying to tease P.R., but don't ascribe to the "turn the other cheek" philosophy either. I have a right to defend myself and if the moderator finds that attitude incompatible with his board, well . it's his board - but it's my cheek or, in P.R.'s case .. my forehead.

I understand, and I know what it can be like myself. You appear to be the nonconformist type, much like myself. So whether you'll take my advice or not, I'd recommend that you sleep on it, and PR as well. It makes a big difference in your train of thought, as I'm sure you're well aware of this. I get worked up pretty easily myself. Hopefully the BA will give you guys some leeway on this matter, and allow you both some time to work things out.

Just ask yourself one question.

Is it really worth it?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 09:31 AM
I really don't want to get banned either but to tell you the truth if I have to walk on egg shells all the time it would happen in my case anyway. I wasn't trying to tease P.R., but don't ascribe to the "turn the other cheek" philosophy either. I have a right to defend myself and if the moderator finds that attitude incompatible with his board, well . it's his board - but it's my cheek or, in P.R.'s case .. my forehead.I understand, and I know what it can be like myself. You appear to be the nonconformist type, much like myself. So whether you'll take my advice or not, I'd recommend that you sleep on it, and PR as well. It makes a big difference in your train of thought, as I'm sure you're well aware of this. I get worked up pretty easily myself. Hopefully the BA will give you guys some leeway on this matter, and allow you both some time to work things out.

Just ask yourself one question.

Is it really worth it?heh .. not really. I think the sad thing is if P.R. was a Sliders fan he'd know I wasn't being coy .. one of their common bad guys was from alternate Earth where the dinos evolved into these two-legged thingamajigs (I forget their name) that hunted down humans. The thing is, I never "attacked" him nor need to tolerate the "forehead smack" comment. If I do, I can't stay here anyway. Yeah, in retrospect, I could've taken a walk before replying and all .. but I didn't. I notice retrospect never seems to happen when it should. That little philosophical gem applies to "real life" as well. I'm OK with whatever the BA does, it's his board.

dvb
2005-Mar-17, 09:44 AM
heh .. not really. I think the sad thing is if P.R. was a Sliders fan he'd know I wasn't being coy .. one of their common bad guys was from alternate Earth where the dinos evolved into these two-legged thingamajigs (I forget their name) that hunted down humans. The thing is, I never "attacked" him nor need to tolerate the "forehead smack" comment. If I do, I can't stay here anyway. Yeah, in retrospect, I could've taken a walk before replying and all .. but I didn't. I notice retrospect never seems to happen when it should. That little philosophical gem applies to "real life" as well. I'm OK with whatever the BA does, it's his board.

Fair enough. You're correct in saying that PR started this mess, and I'm sure the BA will agree. Hopefully PR comes around tomorrow, and realizes what he has done. I'm assuming he won't be back tonight/this morning, and I believe he should be apologizing before you do. Hopefully things will be back to normal tomorrow (later on today).

I'm off to bed now. Have a good sleep. :)

Paul Mitchell
2005-Mar-17, 09:46 AM
Edited to add: My zoological wife said dinos weren't reptiles so .. bottom line: #-o .. don't listen to moi when it comes to Dino :wink:

Since when weren't dinosaurs reptiles? Not lizards I understand, but not reptiles at all?

Paul Mitchell
2005-Mar-17, 09:51 AM
Is it true there were some dino's that were about to enter the path to intelligence right before they got hit with that asteroid?Define intelligence P.R. What are you looking for? Reptilian intelligence? .. Watch Sliders. That fiction has as much speculation as you'd get here .. probably more. Reptiles are cold-blooded and inferior to mammals IMO.
It's awfully hard to justify a judgement of "inferiority" in evolutionary terms. As I just said, evolution is blind. I'll grant you, though, that the human brain is an energy hog that requires constant fuel, which may not be very compatible with the eating habits of most cold-blooded animals.

Reptiles are not "cold-blooded", they simply lack the ability to control their own temperature separately from their environment. In fact many reptiles routinely run higher body temperatures than we do (at least during the day :-))

This may be considered a disadvantage, especialy in a cold environment. On, the other hand, however this lowers their food requirements w.r.t. mammals & birds.

I don't see this as a problem for a brain though, if a reptile had a brain that required more energy, it would just have to eat more, surely?

Archer17
2005-Mar-17, 10:42 AM
Edited to add: My zoological wife said dinos weren't reptiles so .. bottom line: #-o .. don't listen to moi when it comes to Dino :wink:

Since when weren't dinosaurs reptiles? Not lizards I understand, but not reptiles at all?Don't ask me .. I was fine with them being reptiles. Over-grown lizards as far as I'm concerned.
Reptiles are not "cold-blooded", they simply lack the ability to control their own temperature separately from their environment. In fact many reptiles routinely run higher body temperatures than we do (at least during the day :). Let's not get semantical shall we? They're cold blooded. Put one on my porch, right now. It's 29 degrees. Tell me what happens. Of course they can't control their temperature .. they're cold-blooded! I guess you stick a lizard on an Arizona sun-baked rock you can call it "hot-blooded" .. fair enough? They are considered as "cold-blooded" creatures in most parts Mr. Mitchell, it's a phrase.

captain swoop
2005-Mar-17, 11:03 AM
There is much evidence to show that if not all them some Dinos were warm blooded. Modern birds are warm blooded, quite a few dinos had insulating feathers, to my mind this would indicate that they are warm blooded animals. Birds are modern Donos and they are warm blooded and insulated with feathers

gethen
2005-Mar-17, 01:55 PM
Back to the OT: Harry Harrison's West of Eden (http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/67111-ebook.htm) is based on just the premise you suggest--dinosaurs have not been wiped out by an asteroid impact (or anything else) and have evolved their own society. An interesting read.

Musashi
2005-Mar-17, 05:12 PM
Thats true, but theres a possibility, although not a probability?

If we (humans) were to go instinct, who would have the best chance of taking our place as become an intelligent species/sentient beings?

I would say the apes would have the best shot.

weatherc
2005-Mar-17, 05:23 PM
Back to the OT: Harry Harrison's West of Eden (http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/67111-ebook.htm) is based on just the premise you suggest--dinosaurs have not been wiped out by an asteroid impact (or anything else) and have evolved their own society. An interesting read.

I read all three of the West of Eden books. The most fascinating part of the trilogy is that the thought processes of the intelligent dinosaurs was more alien than most of the aliens from other worlds in most science fiction. They truly had a non-human way of thinking that still made sense within their society. Looking back, the science was wrong (we are now pretty sure that dinosaurs were more closely related to birds than lizards, and that at least some species were warm-blooded), but it was still an interesting story.

dvb
2005-Mar-17, 05:31 PM
Dino's also have hollow bones like birds.

Bounced Check
2005-Mar-17, 05:38 PM
Actually, given their brain to body mass ratio, their inclinatio to learn through observation and their manipulative abilities I'd vote for octopoids... Anyone up for a little selective breeding experiments for the next few thousand years to see if we can do it? ;)

Raptor1967
2005-Mar-17, 05:48 PM
As far as I have been able to confirm. Most Dinosaurs were actually warm blooded animals. As for evolving into something intelligent I believe the velociraptor came the closest to showing a level of awareness equal to say a modern day dolphin or Octopus.

Zachary
2005-Mar-17, 06:42 PM
Wouldn't the lack of useful arms have impeded any development into humanesque intelligence?

darkhunter
2005-Mar-17, 07:07 PM
Yes--that might have impeded their technology--until useful arms and opposable thumps showed up...They could have been incredibly bright, but unable to manipulate the environment. Two things could have happened:

1: "Mutations" could have been seen as bad andthose with steps toward useful arm banished and not reproducing

2: The benifits seen/mutations not ostracised/whatever, and the arms were useful as a survival trait...

Gramma loreto
2005-Mar-17, 07:57 PM
Could they have achieved human-level intelligence? Perhaps. All conjecture would be subject to the evolutionary pressures brought to bear under the propsed scenario.

Of course, we'd first have to propose that the mass extinction event never occured. Next, we'd have to posit that the ensuing dinosaur-dominated environment would select for increasingly higher intelligence in one or more species.

As has been mentioned, it's thought that at least some species were endothermic. I'm one of those laymen who think that endothermy would be a prerequisite to higher intelligence. That is, I think that the development of intelligence in ectotherms is fraught with so many difficulties that they would simply be out-competed by equally smart endotherms.

In humans, I suppose that tool use and increasing amounts of protien-rich meat in the diet (though to be a key to building greater brain mass) were tied to and proceeded apace with increasing intelligence. The dinosaurs most thought to be more intelligent were already carnivores but lacked the aptitude for tool use. What pressures would have resulted in a similar progression in intellect?

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 08:39 PM
Does anybody have a link for the velociraptor showing signs of intelligence?

And for the stupid stuff that I had said last night, it will stop.

weatherc
2005-Mar-17, 08:54 PM
Does anybody have a link for the velociraptor showing signs of intelligence?

I think that's mostly conjecture at this point. Studies of brain size compared to body mass tend to put the raptors (and a couple of other families of dinosaurs, such as troodon) ahead of many other dinosaurs as far as estimated intelligence, but it's hard to guess without seeing how they behaved. We don't know if they hunted in packs (like in Jurassic Park), or what their social behavior was. With no observable behavior, we will never be able to say whether velociraptor was as smart as a cat, or a chimp, or whatever. Unless, of course, we find a fossil of one seated on a ceramic toilet, or something along those lines, which I'm not expecting to happen. It would be neat if they did, though; that would be one of the biggest shakeups in science ever.

ChesleyFan
2005-Mar-17, 08:57 PM
Here we go:

1. Reptiles are cold-blooded. Dinosaurs are not "reptiles" in the way we think snakes or alligators are reptiles. Dinosaurs are more complex than that. Some of them, like the raptors, were possibly warm-blooded. The larger ones, however, are believed to have been cold-blooded. There's evidence for both views of course. Some dinosaur bones display a lot of channels for blood vessels, more like a modern big cat than a crocodile. On the other hand, warm-blooded creatures have to consume more than cold-blooded creatures, so it would be more efficient for larger dinos to be cold-blooded.
In any case, whatever your side, there's someone else to tell you you're wrong.

2. The raptors were "smart", as in "dog-like intelligence" smart, as in "a lot more intelligent than we gave dinosaurs credit for a century ago" smart. I doubt that, even at the end of the Cretaceous, they were nearing human-level intelligence.
(Although Stephen Baxter wrote a short story about two years back in Analog about a species of tool-using raptors).

3. If we were to go extinct, I believe that, eventually, cephalopods will take our place.

weatherc
2005-Mar-17, 09:15 PM
Here we go:

1. Reptiles are cold-blooded. Dinosaurs are not "reptiles" in the way we think snakes or alligators are reptiles. Dinosaurs are more complex than that. Some of them, like the raptors, were possibly warm-blooded. The larger ones, however, are believed to have been cold-blooded. There's evidence for both views of course. Some dinosaur bones display a lot of channels for blood vessels, more like a modern big cat than a crocodile. On the other hand, warm-blooded creatures have to consume more than cold-blooded creatures, so it would be more efficient for larger dinos to be cold-blooded.
In any case, whatever your side, there's someone else to tell you you're wrong.


This is true. I have read that heat dissipation would be a problem in the very large dinosaurs if they were warm-blooded; that and the problem of having enough available food to sustain a body the size of a brachiosaur or other large dinosaur if it had the metabolism of a warm-blooded animal. It would make sense if the very large dinosaurs were actually cold-blooded.

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 10:09 PM
What do cephalopods have to make them a candidate?

um3k
2005-Mar-17, 10:13 PM
Edited to add: My zoological wife said dinos weren't reptiles so .. bottom line: #-o .. don't listen to moi when it comes to Dino :wink:

Since when weren't dinosaurs reptiles? Not lizards I understand, but not reptiles at all?
Dinosaurs were rep-bird-iles.

ChesleyFan
2005-Mar-17, 10:49 PM
What do cephalopods have to make them a candidate?

Some of the squids are fairly intelligent creatures. Eh.

I simply remember watching an Animal Planet special called "The Future is Wild" that speculated on the evolution of Earth animals millions of years from now. The show ended with a new intelligent species-- a land-dwelling octopus. Since then, that idea has caught my fancy.

Nicolas
2005-Mar-17, 10:52 PM
I think the future of intelligent life will be all about the maggots. 8)

(go us!)

Lycus
2005-Mar-17, 10:54 PM
http://img172.exs.cx/img172/8414/therm011xw.jpg

omypelt
2005-Mar-17, 11:09 PM
The Dinosauroid (http://images.google.com/images?q=dinosauroid)

For explanation, see

Reconstructions of the Small Cretaceous Theropod Stenonychosaurus inequalis and a Hypothetical Dinosauroid
Syllogeus, Vol. 37, 1982
Dale A. Russell, R. Séguin

Plat
2005-Mar-17, 11:18 PM
What do cephalopods have to make them a candidate?

Some of the squids are fairly intelligent creatures. Eh.

I simply remember watching an Animal Planet special called "The Future is Wild" that speculated on the evolution of Earth animals millions of years from now. The show ended with a new intelligent species-- a land-dwelling octopus. Since then, that idea has caught my fancy.

Check your PM's

Anyways, I think that idea is plausible

mike alexander
2005-Mar-17, 11:43 PM
Modern reptiles are classified as ectotherms, meaning that they have little ability to control body temperature by internal processes (although extremely sophisticated behavioral processes), as opposed to birds and mammals, classified as endotherms. Each strategy has advantages and disavantages. But one should note that there are more species of reptiles than there are of mammals currently alive.

The question of heat output vs. body size is solved by tissue generating less heat per cubic cc; an elephant generates less than 1/10 the heat, per unit mass, that a mouse does. It has been speculated that in a generally warmer enviornment as existed through much of the mesozoic that the larger dinosaurs (e.g., bronts) could have stayed warm by mass endothermy, shedding heat so slowly that their thermal inertia could keep them fairly warm.

There is a tendency to see all 'dinosaurs' as alike, when they were a very diverse group. More and more evidence (a lot form China recently) says that at least some smaller dinosaurs were feathered (I'd say this is now firmly proven). Many of the feathers look more like ostrich feathers, and the main functions are speculated to be insulation, display, or both. Examination of bone-growth rings seems to show mammal-like growth patterns in some genera, not so in others.

I would say the majority opinion now is that Aves is an offshoot of Dinosauria, although to be fair this is still being furiously debated. Just recently evidence was presented that theropods like T.rex grew very quickly (maturation in ca. 15-20 yrs) which would be awfully fast for a classical reptile.

As to human-level intelligence, by the best evidence we have it has evolved exactly once in one genus and only a few of species of that genus. In the better part of 500 million years (rough time for complex multicellular life). This suggests that human-level intelligence is not necessarily strongly selected for.

And while cehpalpods, especially octopi, have large brains for their size, they face the problem that they have very short life spans. Training a brain seems to take a lot of time.

Tom
2005-Mar-18, 03:05 AM
It is entirely possible that a dinosaur-like creature evolved human-equivalent intelligence in the 65 million years of the time period in question. It only took humans, what, between 3 and 10 million years to gain something we call intelligence?

What if these animals/creatures were something that hasn't been found, or didn't fossilize? Our knowledge of the dinosaur era is of course limited to what has been found, and that is all we can speculate on.

A past civilisation that covered its tracks would be nearly impossible to find, unless they come back for a visit. That's actually been the premise of more than one scifi story.

In other words, we can't rule it out, but we can't prove it, either. The fossils we have found to date, and our understanding of biology, pretty well rule out past intelligence.

mopc
2005-Mar-18, 03:49 AM
Well, like humans, they would leave very few traces of intelligence that would endure 65 million years, and the short period of civilization - 12,000 years from agriculture to interstelar space travel - could have been erased by the last space-faring generation to touch the Earth, in order to preserve the earth as a natural reservation and undo the environmental damage of the industrial age.

Later the Dinos would populate the galaxy and then evolve into something we cannot imagine - for it all started happening more than 65 million years ago, a lot of time to go on...

Than they came back and built the pyramids for the Egyptians! :lol:

Plat
2005-Mar-18, 05:09 AM
I think that it is highly unlikely that some dino species obtained human-like intelligence but I think it is possible for some dino species to had been on the way there, like the Velociraptor, some say. Maybe the dino's pace was just extremely slow.

archman
2005-Mar-18, 07:31 AM
The Dinosauroid (http://images.google.com/images?q=dinosauroid)

For explanation, see

Reconstructions of the Small Cretaceous Theropod Stenonychosaurus inequalis and a Hypothetical Dinosauroid
Syllogeus, Vol. 37, 1982
Dale A. Russell, R. Séguin

Oh Lord, I have one of Russell's book that talks about that thing.. Forgot how creepy Russell's monograph on the dinosauroid was. But Russell was the smartypants that guided Bakker, and Bakker's the smartypants that wrote the book that got Crichton thinking, and Crichton wrote Jurassic Park, and Spielburg made a great movie out of it.

Yay, Russell. Your dinosaroid may be creepier than sin, but Jurassic Park more than makes up for it. I wonder if you're even still alive.

Plat
2005-Mar-18, 07:39 AM
Arent they like "super" experts when it comes to dino's

archman
2005-Mar-18, 08:00 AM
Arent they like "super" experts when it comes to dino's

Yeah. Russell's claim to fame was Deinonychus, a cute little american raptor that predated the whole "raptor" craze of the 1980's and 1990's. He discovered them back in the 1960's, as I recall. I think some of Bakker's illustrations from The Dinosaur Heresies (which you can still find in bookstores!) showed Deinonychus in neato poses.

Somebody once told me if you took all the full-time dinosaur paleontologists in the whole world and put them together, they would number something like 40 people. Apparently the vast bulk of dino scientists are either part-timers, or volunteers. We don't have any strict dino researchers at Texas A&M, and we're one of the biggest public universities in the U.S.! Fossils lying all over the place, too... it's criminal. We can have a FEW HUNDRED geneticists, but not one lousy dinosaur paleontologist.

Oops, I think I hijacked the thread.

Uh... theropods. Let's see, raptors are all from that stock of carnivorous dinosaur, which popped up in the early Cretaceous I *think*. They were all pretty fancy as dinosaurs go, with reasonable evolution rates. Troodon showed up near the end of the Cretaceous, and it had one of the biggest (if not the biggest) brain relative to body size of any reptile. Russell's construction of the dinosauroid I believe was inspired by a what-if notion of Troodon-derivatives persisting into the Cenozoic. Troodon was assumed bright by dino standards, but not by most bird or mammal ones. Then again, all we have are crummy fossils to look at. If we didn't have living cephalopods to observe, I doubt anyone would've ever considered ammonites as being smart. But a lot of us invert folks certainly believe it.

Time machine. Gotta build a time machine.

Plat
2005-Mar-18, 06:05 PM
Good luck on that one.

But yeah, that dinosauroid looked pretty freaky...imagine them running around amongst us.