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vonmazur
2005-Mar-18, 05:44 PM
Have any of you noticed this guy http://www.firmament-chaos.com/ his web site is interesting in that he says to do your own thinking, sort of a warning to students, and he makes his arguments without getting whacky.

I personally liked the information and presentation, even if it is a Fringe Theory....Something about it strikes an "atavistic ancestral memory", if that is what I get from it!!!

Dale in Ala

Cugel
2005-Mar-19, 02:57 PM
Have any of you noticed this guy http://www.firmament-chaos.com/ his web site is interesting in that he says to do your own thinking, sort of a warning to students, and he makes his arguments without getting whacky.

I personally liked the information and presentation, even if it is a Fringe Theory....Something about it strikes an "atavistic ancestral memory", if that is what I get from it!!!

Dale in Ala

Quote from this site:

Prior to 4000 B.C. there existed only two terrestrial planets, what I call priori-Mars and the Earth. That is, Mercury and Venus were not present in the solar system. Priori-Mars, the more ancient of the two by some 800 million years, was in an orbit similar to that of Venus today. It had a thick atmosphere, lots of surface water, rain, and a myriad of life forms similar to those found on Earth. The entire planet was covered with vegetation.

I want that Priori-Mars back!
:lol:

A.DIM
2005-Mar-20, 01:54 PM
I find this to be the "latest velikovskian-sitchinesque incarnation":

"I maintain that an inferior hominid species occupied the Earth 6,000 years ago, although much more advanced than chimps, they had no spoken language and were not capable of building great civilizations. All but a few in each culture were killed by close passes of proto-Venus. Soon after, the 'elohiym, an advanced species descended from priori-Mars, some 800 million years older than the Earth and in geosynchronous orbit, and profoundly modified the DNA of the few survivors, producing homo sapiens sapiens. This is clearly stated in Genesis. After some three centuries required to repopulate the Earth, this new species created the great ancient civilizations of Egypt, Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. This intervention, created homo sapiens by fiat, a species which never would have evolved by way of random mutation and recombination 'errors.'

:D

R.A.F.
2005-Mar-20, 02:43 PM
All but a few in each culture were killed by close passes of proto-Venus.

So, are you of the opinion that Venus was wandering around the Solar System 6000 years ago?

A.DIM
2005-Mar-20, 02:57 PM
All but a few in each culture were killed by close passes of proto-Venus.

So, are you of the opinion that Venus was wandering around the Solar System 6000 years ago?

Certainly not.

In my mind, these mythological-astronomical descriptions of the "Return of the Lord," if you will, are memories based on a single perturbing body which, according to the Sumerians, approaches every 3600yrs or so to the "place of crossing," aka "the firmament" and "heaven;" or as I prefer, the asteroid belt. I don't think the perturber could be Venus or Mars since there are signs of such perturbation in the outer solar system, which implies that it approaches from outside the system, not from within it.

V-GER
2005-Mar-20, 03:14 PM
A.DIM wrote:

In my mind, these mythological-astronomical descriptions of the "Return of the Lord," if you will, are memories based on a single perturbing body which, according to the Sumerians, approaches every 3600yrs or so to the "place of crossing," aka "the firmament" and "heaven;" or as I prefer, the asteroid belt. I don't think the perturber could be Venus or Mars since there are signs of such perturbation in the outer solar system, which implies that it approaches from outside the system, not from within it.

Do you then think that this perturber exists and is on it's way here as we speak?

algorithms
2005-Mar-20, 03:16 PM
Just what we need...another nonsense factory. There is good reason this guy warns students about not taking his stuff too seriously...we shouldn't.

If this guy has anything substantive to offer, he should attempt to publish his "work" in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal. Anybody can self-publish a book and advertise on a website and impress the gullible.

A.DIM
2005-Mar-20, 03:26 PM
A.DIM wrote:

In my mind, these mythological-astronomical descriptions of the "Return of the Lord," if you will, are memories based on a single perturbing body which, according to the Sumerians, approaches every 3600yrs or so to the "place of crossing," aka "the firmament" and "heaven;" or as I prefer, the asteroid belt. I don't think the perturber could be Venus or Mars since there are signs of such perturbation in the outer solar system, which implies that it approaches from outside the system, not from within it.

Do you then think that this perturber exists and is on it's way here as we speak?

I think it's possible, I daresay probable, that such a perturber still exists. I base this opinion on the work of a few astronomers who suggest as much, and are currently searching for it.
However, I don't think it will be here any time soon as "prophesied" by countless PX proponents.

V-GER
2005-Mar-20, 03:27 PM
algorithms wrote:

he should attempt to publish his "work" in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal.

Oh but they require proof, which these guys can rarely offer.

V-GER
2005-Mar-20, 03:33 PM
A.DIM wrote:

I think it's possible, I daresay probable, that such a perturber still exists. I base this opinion on the work of a few astronomers who suggest as much, and are currently searching for it.
However, I don't think it will be here any time soon as "prophesied" by countless PX proponents.

Does it then have a normal planetary orbit beyond Pluto or one that will actually bring it to the inner solar system? There might well be several planets or planet like bodies outside pluto's orbit but I don't believe in a planet that would come close to earth every 3600 years or so.

A.DIM
2005-Mar-20, 03:37 PM
Just what we need...another nonsense factory. There is good reason this guy warns students about not taking his stuff too seriously...we shouldn't.

If this guy has anything substantive to offer, he should attempt to publish his "work" in a reputable peer-reviewed scientific journal. Anybody can self-publish a book and advertise on a website and impress the gullible.

Well, I'd never heard of this guy until this thread, and don't get me wrong, I'm not defending him, but upon some googling I found that he apparently has published in peer-reviewed journals.

eg. The Origin of Sunspots (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2003AGUFMSH42B0546A&db_key=A ST) doesn't necessarily support his velikovskian inclinations, but it appears that some of his work is at least "substantive."

A.DIM
2005-Mar-20, 03:52 PM
A.DIM wrote:

I think it's possible, I daresay probable, that such a perturber still exists. I base this opinion on the work of a few astronomers who suggest as much, and are currently searching for it.
However, I don't think it will be here any time soon as "prophesied" by countless PX proponents.

Does it then have a normal planetary orbit beyond Pluto or one that will actually bring it to the inner solar system? There might well be several planets or planet like bodies outside pluto's orbit but I don't believe in a planet that would come close to earth every 3600 years or so.

I understand; I don't "believe" in it either.

But I would suggest its orbit is highly elliptical as evidenced by Sedna, CR105, 2004DW(i think), various long period comets, and even Pluto's orbit. I think it is inclined to the ecliptic as evidenced by Pluto's orbit and various long period comets as well, maybe some 30deg. I think it is responsible for the retrograde motion in our system as evdienced by various moons, comets and a planet, and I think it is responsible for knocking a planet over on its side. Lastly, and most importantly, I think it is responsible for the celestial collision that resulted in the formation of the asteroid belt as well as the earth / moon system. I'd suggest that its perihelion is no closer than the asteroid belt region - the "firmament" renamed "heaven" in the OT - perhaps some 3.5AU away.

These are only my opinions, mind you.

algorithms
2005-Mar-20, 04:10 PM
A.DIM: Well, I'd never heard of this guy until this thread, and don't get me wrong, I'm not defending him, but upon some googling I found that he apparently has published in peer-reviewed journals.

To be clear, I was not implying that you were taking this gentleman seriously, or defending him. I was merely stating my own opinion on the subject.

As for being published in peer-reviewed journals on other subjects, that doesn't lend any credibility to the wacky claims he makes on his website. It only demonstrates that even the best of us can be out to lunch on occasion. Tom VanFlandern, for example, used to be an accomplished astronomer, but that doesn't make his "exploded planet hypothesis" any more credible.

01101001
2005-Mar-20, 04:49 PM
Mars.

The topic here is Mars.

For proto-Venus and the Great Perturber, odd Sedna and odder Pluto, weird sunspots, rogue comets, and wacky websites, Against the mainstream is here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=1&).