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Monica
2018-Nov-14, 10:18 PM
I've been working on the Voynich Manuscript translations, with a few known constellations mentioned and i would love to post the interpreted meaning with the phonetic sounding star name to see if anyone has any information. Anyone interested I'll post the known ones.

Monica
2018-Nov-14, 10:48 PM
I've been working on translating the Voynich Manuscript, currently the star charts and have found some names and word definitions for the stars... for example page 68 middle star chart has 'apyqsz for the name of the Milky Way. translated as Apyq (bed of a river) and Tzah (comes out of) or Ahyasz for Arcturus, ay (broken man) and asz (wooden object). was in the bible as Aysh. there are many more that defy current understanding and if anyone is willing to help, i will post the intrepreted name and it's meaning to see what we can come up with. Thanks for your help.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-15, 03:26 AM
Hi Monica. I was not aware that the Voynich Manuscript (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript) could be translated since the text is encrypted or in extreme shorthand. However the medieval name for the Milky Way would probably be Milky Way in the unknown author's language. A likely source is Northern Italy so "Via Lattea" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_the_Milky_Way).

Note that the images I have seen of page 68 have little relationship with the real sky. The stars are not spread evenly across the sky (the first 2 diagrams) or in streams from a central icon (the Sun?). So it is nearly impossible to assign the encrypted text on the page to actual stars.

Monica
2018-Nov-15, 09:44 PM
I have been working on translating over 30 pages in the last 6 months. Taking the letters, converting to english equivalent, than medieval phonetic hebrew to get root words or actual Hebrew words. Still an unknown language and structure, but does seem to work. Example: yfahanyfg, yph (beautiful) + anp (heron) could be cygnus. apyqsz, apiq (bed of a river) + tzah (comes out of) could be milky way. Ahyasz star is the closest to the Hebrew equivalent in the bible for Arcturus, Ayish. Voynich translation of root words ay ( broen man) + asz (wooden object) Stars are named for planets aharsz (earth) or constellations nun (fish), Kahqfr, kahq (strength) Pr (bull) Taurus, or unknown ahyaru, ayr (watcher). they are definitely not in any order of the stars.
Since i already interpreted the first page, i can tell you that the person in in exile in Greece.

antoniseb
2018-Nov-15, 10:29 PM
It is cool that you are working on this. In Western Europe, the constellation names were pretty much the familiar Latin names we see today. They were known by most educated people, and probably most people, but I don't know of evidence for what peasants knew about the sky. What you are showing here suggests that maybe Middle Eastern names for the constellations are what you need, and I have no real knowledge about that, except perhaps for the zodiacal signs which are things I could look up; but I'm guessing you could look them up more easily than I could.

Summing up: keep up the good work. I hope we get to see your results some day!

Reality Check
2018-Nov-16, 12:47 AM
I have been working on translating over 30 pages in the last 6 months. Taking the letters, converting to english equivalent, than medieval phonetic hebrew to get root words or actual Hebrew words.
A problem with using Hebrew astronomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy)


Only a few stars and constellations are named individually in the Hebrew Bible, and their identification is not certain. The clearest references include:
* Kesîl (כְּסִ֥יל),[2] usually understood to be Orion, a giant angel.
* Kîmāh (כִימָ֗ה),[3] which may be the Pleiades, Aldebaran, Arcturus, or Sirius.
* 'Ash or 'Ayish (עָ֭שׁ ‘Āš),[4] possibly the Hyades, Arcturus or Ursa Major, or even the Evening Star (Venus when seen at dusk).
* Məzārîm (מזרים),[5] which may be Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, or a synonym for mazzalot, in which case it would refer to the planets or the constellations of the zodiac.

Arcturus is either Kîmāh, 'Ash or 'Ayish or not mentioned at all in the Bible. There is no known Hebrew name for Cygnus or the Milky Way.

A medieval author in Greece should be using medieval Hebrew (e.g. Greek translated into Hebrew) for the missing Hebrew terms, e.g. Milky Way would be "שביל החלב‎ "The Milky Way". (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_the_Milky_Way). Calling the Milky Way a river seems to happen in China, Japan and India. I suspect that the author would know the difference between a swan (Cygnus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_(constellation))) and a heron.

Monica
2018-Nov-16, 11:57 AM
exactly, and there in lies the problem. sentence structure does not match hebrew, but many words can be translated by using phonetic hebrew. Kinda like compound words in english. cowbell is not a cow, but a cow wears this instrument.
spquzr, spq (entrance) + uzr (vex awake) = East achur was West.
page 67 has the star cluster everyone believes is Pladies ... aszypaz, asp (gathering/storeroom) az (so/that)

Monica
2018-Nov-16, 12:02 PM
Thank you. The book was carbon dated to the 15 century and since it reads like this person was a physician/healer they would know the names for them. It is the language that is still unknown.

Solfe
2018-Nov-17, 04:48 AM
I've been working on the Voynich Manuscript translations, with a few known constellations mentioned and i would love to post the interpreted meaning with the phonetic sounding star name to see if anyone has any information. Anyone interested I'll post the known ones.

I think your challenge there is your looking at comparing unknown text with old unknown languages. In respect to languages, I mean "unknown" as in you don't know what you are looking for, not that it is an unheard of language. Add in some drift and the head begins to spin. Look at Italian history to get a sense of the mess you have. Dozens of languages on one tiny peninsula. But your actual area is the size of all of Europe. I don't think you could attack it that way.

FYI - this thread is over 6 years old.

antoniseb
2018-Nov-17, 12:38 PM
... FYI - this thread is over 6 years old.
We could spin off a new thread about constellation names in the Voynich Manuscript, or just leave it here. Monica, if you think you're likely to add more to this conversation, making a new thread for it will make these posts easier to find later. If not, we can just leave it here.

antoniseb
2018-Nov-17, 12:40 PM
... Anyone interested I'll post the known ones.
I'm interested, thanks!

slang
2018-Nov-17, 06:50 PM
4 posts were moved from this 2012, more general thread on medieval constellation names (https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?138833), so some replies may look a bit mixed up. Monica, please use the "quote" feature, it helps in identifying which post you are answering. It's not required but does help a lot. Thanks.

Monica
2018-Nov-18, 12:03 AM
4 posts were moved from this 2012, more general thread on medieval constellation names (https://forum.cosmoquest.org/showthread.php?138833), so some replies may look a bit mixed up. Monica, please use the "quote" feature, it helps in identifying which post you are answering. It's not required but does help a lot. Thanks.

ok thank you, still learning this site

Monica
2018-Nov-18, 12:05 AM
I'm interested, thanks!
I'm working on a spreadsheet so i'll post as done as it's is done, will take a couple of days to complete.

Monica
2018-Nov-18, 02:46 AM
We could spin off a new thread about constellation names in the Voynich Manuscript, or just leave it here. Monica, if you think you're likely to add more to this conversation, making a new thread for it will make these posts easier to find later. If not, we can just leave it here.

sounds great. i'll work on in the morning afternoon and see if i can get the spreadsheet done overnight to get it started. awesome idea.

CaptainToonces
2018-Nov-18, 05:41 AM
What do you think the chances are that it's not words at all but more like artwork made to resemble text?

Roger E. Moore
2018-Nov-18, 02:13 PM
Recent (2017) take on the Voynich ms., with a rebuttal following. I have no idea what the correct answer is. Still a fascinating document, no matter what.


https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/the-mysterious-voynich-manuscript-has-finally-been-decoded/

mystery solved — The mysterious Voynich manuscript has finally been decoded [UPDATED]
History researcher says that it's a mostly plagiarized guide to women's health.

Annalee Newitz - 9/8/2017, 4:10 PM

Since its discovery in 1912, the 15th century Voynich Manuscript has been a mystery and a cult phenomenon. Full of handwriting in an unknown language or code, the book is heavily illustrated with weird pictures of alien plants, naked women, strange objects, and zodiac symbols. Now, history researcher and television writer Nicholas Gibbs appears to have cracked the code, discovering that the book is actually a guide to women's health that's mostly plagiarized from other guides of the era.

Gibbs writes in the Times Literary Supplement that he was commissioned by a television network to analyze the Voynich Manuscript three years ago. Because the manuscript has been entirely digitized by Yale's Beinecke Library, he could see tiny details in each page and pore over them at his leisure. His experience with medieval Latin and familiarity with ancient medical guides allowed him to uncover the first clues.

After looking at the so-called code for a while, Gibbs realized he was seeing a common form of medieval Latin abbreviations, often used in medical treatises about herbs. "From the herbarium incorporated into the Voynich manuscript, a standard pattern of abbreviations and ligatures emerged from each plant entry," he wrote. "The abbreviations correspond to the standard pattern of words used in the Herbarium Apuleius Platonicus – aq = aqua (water), dq = decoque / decoctio (decoction), con = confundo (mix), ris = radacis / radix (root), s aiij = seminis ana iij (3 grains each), etc." So this wasn't a code at all; it was just shorthand. The text would have been very familiar to anyone at the time who was interested in medicine.

========

Article put online two days later about earlier claims.


https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/experts-are-extremely-dubious-about-the-voynich-solution/

it's debunking time — So much for that Voynich manuscript “solution”
Librarians would have "rebutted it in a heartbeat," says medieval scholar.

Annalee Newitz - 9/10/2017, 2:35 PM

As soon as Gibbs' article hit the Internet, news about it spread rapidly through social media (we covered it at Ars too), arousing the skepticism of cipher geeks and scholars alike. As Harvard's Houghton Library curator of early modern books John Overholt put it on Twitter, "We're not buying this Voynich thing, right?" Medievalist Kate Wiles, an editor at History Today, replied, "I've yet to see a medievalist who does. Personally I object to his interpretation of abbreviations."

The weirdly-illustrated 15th century book has been the subject of speculation and conspiracy theories since its discovery in 1912. In his article, Gibbs claimed that he'd figured out the Voynich Manuscript was a women's health manual whose odd script was actually just a bunch of Latin abbreviations. He provided two lines of translation from the text to "prove" his point.

However, this isn't sitting well with people who actually read medieval Latin. Medieval Academy of America director Lisa Fagin Davis told The Atlantic's Sarah Zhang, "They’re not grammatically correct. It doesn’t result in Latin that makes sense." She added, "Frankly I’m a little surprised the TLS published it...If they had simply sent to it to the Beinecke Library, they would have rebutted it in a heartbeat." The Beinecke Library at Yale is where the Voynich Manuscript is currently kept. Davis noted that a big part of Gibbs' claim rests on the idea that the Voynich Manuscript once had an index that would provide a key to the abbreviations. Unfortunately, he has no evidence for such an index, other than the fact that the book does have a few missing pages.

The idea that the book is a medical treatise on women's health, however, might turn out to be correct. But that wasn't Gibbs' discovery. Many scholars and amateur sleuths had already reached that conclusion, using the same evidence that Gibbs did. Essentially, Gibbs rolled together a bunch of already-existing scholarship and did a highly speculative translation, without even consulting the librarians at the institute where the book resides.

Roger E. Moore
2018-Nov-18, 02:18 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript

Wikipedia has a useful synopsis of the ms. and its history.

Monica
2018-Nov-18, 06:57 PM
they are words. example: converted to english then phonetic hebrew for root word meanings.
Pg 67, 5th star chart. 2 stars.
Rasna aszyfaz, rtza “delight in” asp+az “storeroom/gathering+this” Pleiades
Ryazrsg, ry+azr “companion + ally/help” alderbaran. (was known as the follower because it followed Pleiades.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-19, 02:13 AM
Rasna aszyfaz, rtza “delight in” asp+az “storeroom/gathering+this” Pleiades
Ryazrsg, ry+azr “companion + ally/help” alderbaran. (was known as the follower because it followed Pleiades.
Pleiades (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades) in Greek probably came from "to sail" and for Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy): "Kîmāh (כִימָ֗ה),[3] which may be the Pleiades, Aldebaran, Arcturus, or Sirius." Neither matches "Rasna aszyfaz". It is possible that some cultures may have named the Pleiades after "delight in storage/gathering" since they are a prominent winter constellation. Also note that this is a cluster of stars (7 prominent stars thus the seven divine sisters myth) which was well known in medieval times and presumably the author. That makes it odd that Pleiades is represented by a single star.
Aldebaran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldebaran) is the leader of Pleiades (the name is Arabic). It would be Kîmāh or 'Ash or 'Ayish or not known in Hebrew.

selden
2018-Nov-19, 12:44 PM
A quibble: The Pleiades cluster currently has only six (6) prominent stars. Why it is called the Seven Sisters and which star, if any, might have been much brighter in the distant past is a subject of ongoing debate.

antoniseb
2018-Nov-19, 03:50 PM
A quibble: The Pleiades cluster currently has only six (6) prominent stars. Why it is called the Seven Sisters and which star, if any, might have been much brighter in the distant past is a subject of ongoing debate.
Nine of them are brighter than magnitude 6 and have traditional names. I get why people quibble about the Seven Sisters thing, but some of them are pretty close together, and someone with old eyes like mine can't tell a close pair from a single star. Perhaps that is where the Seven comes from.

Monica
2018-Nov-19, 09:57 PM
Unfortunately it comes out of order. as it was done on Excel and you cannot upload stuff. But hopefully you can figure it out. Only a few I have been able to find the star,
Voynich page English Hebrew roots Hebrew meaning Star

68 - 3rd star chart - line 1 apyqsz apyq+tzah bed of a river+come out acherner
67 - 5th star chart- 2 stars ryazrsg ra+azr companion+ally/helps aldebaran
67 - 5th star chart- 2 stars rasna, azyfaz rtzh, asp+az delight in, that+ gathering/storeroom pleiades
68 - 3rd star chart - line 1 ahyasz ay+atz broken man + wooden object
67 - 5th star chart - 4 stars ahyarg ayr Watcher Arcturus
67 - 5th star chart - 4 stars achgrgr ach+grr firepot+circle Sirius
67 - 5th star chart - 4 stars Canopus
67 - 5th star chart - 4 stars Rigil Kentaurus
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle aharszg artz Earth
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle aryp_ychyg arypym+Yhy Heaves/cloud+Yah lives
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achyfarg achy+prah Yah is my brother+ fruitful
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle shaszg shss to be ransacked
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle yaypyv ypya Japhia (may the deity shine)
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ychypg ychp barefoot
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle gchyaru gchr born in the year of little rain
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ach_chg achvch brotherly
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achgrgr ach+gr brotherly+stranger
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ahfsn aps come to an end
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ypyaychyg ypya+ychy Japhia (may the deity shine) + Yah lives
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achghyb ach+G+hy+B brother/firepot+of+he+enters
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achgb ach+gb brother/firepot+ rim of a wheel/cistern
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle azan azn listen/ear/ponder
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ayhyg Ay+Hy broken man+ he
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle yryqan yrch+an moon+me
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achyra achyra my brother is my friend/evil
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achaz achz to be caught
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achan Achyn little brother
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ghyrg gyr/gr chalk/plaster or stranger
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle paqarypyg pchr+ypy potters clay + beauty
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle aypyg ayph Ephah/measure
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle attasn atvn Fine linen (red) betelgeuse
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ahazrg azr girded
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ahyarv__ ayr Watcher Archturus
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle ahyayan aynn spring/Enen
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle anrutta avn+rtt sun God city + panic/fear
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle achayfrg achy+yp+rg my brother is exalted+beauty+peace
68 - 3rd star chart 29 stars in circle razyfrg rz+yp+rg secret+beauty+peace

Reality Check
2018-Nov-19, 11:50 PM
Unfortunately it comes out of order....
The list has the problem that matches to medieval Hebrew or Greek names for stars or constellations are wrong or missing, Monica.
Look at "67 - 5th star chart 4 stars":
"ahyarg ayr Watcher Arcturus": Arcturus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus), "Guardian of the Bear" in Greek. Unknown, Kîmāh, 'Ash or 'Ayish in Hebrew.
"achgrgr ach+grr firepot+circle Sirius": Sirius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius), "glowing" or "scorching" in Greek. May be Kîmāh in Hebrew.
Canopus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus) with no Hebrew so how was that star identified?
Rigil Kentaurus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri) (latinisation of the Arabic name for Alpha Centauri) with no Hebrew so how was that star identified?

ETA: Sirius, Canopus, Rigil Kentaurus and Arcturus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brightest_stars#Main_table) happen to be the 4 brightest naked eye stars. It looks like you assumed that a chart with 4 stars has to be those stars and assigned the names. However the chart may be any group of 4 stars in the sky.

selden
2018-Nov-20, 11:42 AM
Unfortunately it comes out of order. as it was done on Excel and you cannot upload stuff.

Uploading is readily available on Cosmoquest.

For example, you can select the option "Reply With Quote." The resulting Web page provides the option to "Manage Attachments", which allows you to upload Zip files. A Zip file can be used as a container for any other types of files, including Excel spread sheets.

Alternatively, you can provide a link to a free Cloud file service like Google Drive.

Monica
2018-Nov-20, 11:43 AM
The list has the problem that matches to medieval Hebrew or Greek names for stars or constellations are wrong or missing, Monica.
Look at "67 - 5th star chart 4 stars":
"ahyarg ayr Watcher Arcturus": Arcturus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcturus), "Guardian of the Bear" in Greek. Unknown, Kîmāh, 'Ash or 'Ayish in Hebrew.
"achgrgr ach+grr firepot+circle Sirius": Sirius (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius), "glowing" or "scorching" in Greek. May be Kîmāh in Hebrew.
Canopus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus) with no Hebrew so how was that star identified?
Rigil Kentaurus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Centauri) (latinisation of the Arabic name for Alpha Centauri) with no Hebrew so how was that star identified?

ETA: Sirius, Canopus, Rigil Kentaurus and Arcturus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_brightest_stars#Main_table) happen to be the 4 brightest naked eye stars. It looks like you assumed that a chart with 4 stars has to be those stars and assigned the names. However the chart may be any group of 4 stars in the sky.

the spreadsheet is much larger and does have Greek, Egyptian, Arab and if known Hebrew names and Meanings (this is really important, what did people call the dog star, befre it was known as that?). Canopus and Rigil were put there as a thought, when i found Sirius and Arcturus already in the 4 stars on page 67 and was woriking on translation to see if they fit the definition. I had these highlighted on my spreadsheet for unknowns, i cropped it for this forum.

Monica
2018-Nov-20, 05:41 PM
Uploading is readily available on Cosmoquest.

For example, you can select the option "Reply With Quote." The resulting Web page provides the option to "Manage Attachments", which allows you to upload Zip files. A Zip file can be used as a container for any other types of files, including Excel spread sheets.

Alternatively, you can provide a link to a free Cloud file service like Google Drive.

thank you Selden.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-20, 08:06 PM
the spreadsheet is much larger and does have Greek, Egyptian, Arab and if known Hebrew names and Meanings (this is really important, what did people call the dog star, befre it was known as that?). Canopus and Rigil were put there as a thought, when i found Sirius and Arcturus already in the 4 stars on page 67 and was woriking on translation to see if they fit the definition. I had these highlighted on my spreadsheet for unknowns, i cropped it for this forum.
You did not find Sirius and Arcturus. Your decryption does not produce clear Greek, Egyptian, or Arab names of stars or constellations. No decryption can produce the unknown Hebrew names. The clearest named constellation is Orion and that only applies to Orion's Belt (the rest of the constellation is unknown). No other star or constellation is clearly named.

Hebrew astronomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy)

Stars and constellations
Only a few stars and constellations are named individually in the Hebrew Bible, and their identification is not certain. The clearest references include:
Kesîl (כְּסִ֥יל),[2] usually understood to be Orion, a giant angel.
Kîmāh (כִימָ֗ה),[3] which may be the Pleiades, Aldebaran, Arcturus, or Sirius.
'Ash or 'Ayish (עָ֭שׁ ‘Āš),[4] possibly the Hyades, Arcturus or Ursa Major, or even the Evening Star (Venus when seen at dusk).
Məzārîm (מזרים),[5] which may be Ursa Major and Ursa Minor, or a synonym for mazzalot, in which case it would refer to the planets or the constellations of the zodiac.


Sirius (dog star) Etymology and cultural significance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius#Etymology_and_cultural_significance). What is important is what a medieval author would have called stars. If they were Greek or influenced by them then Sirius or a Western European author could have used Alhabor. A Hebrew author would very probably used the medieval Greek and Latin names. If they used Hebrew names then we have no idea what those stars are.

selden
2018-Nov-20, 09:54 PM
I know almost nothing about Hebrew astronomy, but don't forget that you have to include astrological references, too, since they provide the basis for much of the early astronomical terminology. Wikipedia certainly isn't be best reference (at least, not on its own), but its article on Hebrew astrology does list the dozen zodiacal constellations. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology#Hebrew_calendar_correlat ion_to_zodiac

Monica
2018-Nov-20, 11:35 PM
I know almost nothing about Hebrew astronomy, but don't forget that you have to include astrological references, too, since they provide the basis for much of the early astronomical terminology. Wikipedia certainly isn't be best reference (at least, not on its own), but its article on Hebrew astrology does list the dozen zodiacal constellations. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_views_on_astrology#Hebrew_calendar_correlat ion_to_zodiac

would be easier if this language was Hebrew. It is root words that i am pulling out. Still an unknown language, but many languages utilize others in their makeup. and thank you for the link. Where i need help is the meaning of the interpreted words. I did figure out the bridle-abundance is Polaris a fixed or Bridled star. the one that says barefoot is Rigel known in arabic as the foot.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-21, 12:12 AM
Why does "bridle-abundance" not mean an abundance of bridles, Monica :). More seriously what are the actual word(s) and your source(s) for the translation into '"bridle-abundance"?
Polaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) is the modern (Renaissance era), Latin name of the star assigned when it had moved close to the celestial pole. There are medieval names concerning navigation, e.g. Old English scip-steorra ("ship-star").

Monica
2018-Nov-21, 12:24 AM
I cannot post the Voynich script, (no keyboard i know of yet) only the English letters, then phonetically into hebrew root words to give some root meaning. What is a bridle... holds a horse in place. Abundance, always there. Polaris is known as the fixed star, what was it called 5 hundred years ago, by the sailors who sailed... a fixed,bridled star to navigate by.

Monica
2018-Nov-21, 01:04 AM
You did not find Sirius and Arcturus. Your decryption does not produce clear Greek, Egyptian, or Arab names of stars or constellations. No decryption can produce the unknown Hebrew names. The clearest named constellation is Orion and that only applies to Orion's Belt (the rest of the constellation is unknown). No other star or constellation is clearly named.

Hebrew astronomy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_astronomy)


Sirius (dog star) Etymology and cultural significance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius#Etymology_and_cultural_significance). What is important is what a medieval author would have called stars. If they were Greek or influenced by them then Sirius or a Western European author could have used Alhabor. A Hebrew author would very probably used the medieval Greek and Latin names. If they used Hebrew names then we have no idea what those stars are.

this is where i need help. there are no known hebrew stars listed beyond 3-4 and even they are not clear on definitions. I am using a hebrew root language for "definitions" of words. so if Polaris was a known constant in the sky, bridle would be a word used to "Keep" something in place based on many other languages for a fixed star. Barefoot would coincide with foot in Arabic for the star Rigel knows as the foot star in Egypt.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-21, 08:21 PM
this is where i need help. there are no known hebrew stars listed beyond 3-4 and even they are not clear on definitions. I am using a hebrew root language for "definitions" of words. so if Polaris was a known constant in the sky, bridle would be a word used to "Keep" something in place based on many other languages for a fixed star. Barefoot would coincide with foot in Arabic for the star Rigel knows as the foot star in Egypt.
Polaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) is the modern (Renaissance era), Latin name. A medieval author is unlikely to call it fixed. If they did call a star fixed then they would write the Hebrew for fixed. You are picking an English meaning of bridle when it could be an actual horse bridle or not mean "constrain" in Hebrew. Constrain does not quite mean fixed.

This is Rigel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigel)

The traditional name Rigel is first recorded in the Alfonsine Tables of 1252. It is derived from the Arabic name Rijl Jauzah al Yusrā, "the left leg (foot) of Jauzah" (i.e. rijl meaning "leg, foot"),[16] which can be traced to the 10th century.
The Arabic is leg or foot. Barefoot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot) in English is the state of having bare feet, not a foot. There is probably a Hebrew word for leg or foot.

Monica
2018-Nov-21, 09:05 PM
Polaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) is the modern (Renaissance era), Latin name. A medieval author is unlikely to call it fixed. If they did call a star fixed then they would write the Hebrew for fixed. You are picking an English meaning of bridle when it could be an actual horse bridle or not mean "constrain" in Hebrew. Constrain does not quite mean fixed.

This is Rigel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigel)

The Arabic is leg or foot. Barefoot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barefoot) in English is the state of having bare feet, not a foot. There is probably a Hebrew word for leg or foot.

there are 4 times the word barefoot is in the bible. 2 samuel 15:30, Isiah 20: 2,3, & 4 ychp meaning barefoot, also same word used as unshod in Jeremiah 2:25

Reality Check
2018-Nov-21, 11:34 PM
there are 4 times the word barefoot is in the bible. 2 samuel 15:30, Isiah 20: 2,3, & 4 ychp meaning barefoot, also same word used as unshod in Jeremiah 2:25
That is still bare feet, not a leg or foot. An English translation of maybe the Greek for bare feet from a translation of the Hebrew for bare feet. 2 Samuel 15:30 (https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/15-30.htm) is not David hopping up the Mount of Olives on a leg or foot :D!

Strong's Concordance: yacheph: barefoot; Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-khafe') (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3182.htm) which is not quite "ychp".
A reasonable Hebrew name for Rigel for an author who know the Arabic name would be "regel". See Strong's Concordance: regel: foot; Phonetic Spelling: (reh'-gel) (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7272.htm).

CaptainToonces
2018-Nov-21, 11:55 PM
they are words. example: converted to english then phonetic hebrew for root word meanings.
Pg 67, 5th star chart. 2 stars.
Rasna aszyfaz, rtza “delight in” asp+az “storeroom/gathering+this” Pleiades
Ryazrsg, ry+azr “companion + ally/help” alderbaran. (was known as the follower because it followed Pleiades.

I'm sorry, I'm not following how this proves that the markings in the Voynich Manuscript are necessarily words and not just an artist's markings.

My understanding was that the VM was crafted by some clever people specifically to sell for a high price to a wealthy landowner who believed it to be an exotic text with potential health secrets.

Monica
2018-Nov-22, 12:35 AM
That is still bare feet, not a leg or foot. An English translation of maybe the Greek for bare feet from a translation of the Hebrew for bare feet. 2 Samuel 15:30 (https://biblehub.com/2_samuel/15-30.htm) is not David hopping up the Mount of Olives on a leg or foot :D!

Strong's Concordance: yacheph: barefoot; Phonetic Spelling: (yaw-khafe') (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3182.htm) which is not quite "ychp".
A reasonable Hebrew name for Rigel for an author who know the Arabic name would be "regel". See Strong's Concordance: regel: foot; Phonetic Spelling: (reh'-gel) (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7272.htm).

i will try to explain again the best i can. I am utilizing the root language of Hebrew, to translate meaning... the voynich is NOT hebrew as we know it today. could be from the Khazars- Terkic Jews with no example of written language after the 1300's. I use Strongs for old word meaning and a oxford hebrew dictionary for later. I try all letters found first, if not then look to phonetic for any interpretation.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-22, 01:13 AM
i will try to explain again the best i can. ....
I know what you are trying to do. That does not turn bare feet into a leg or a foot. It does not explain why a medieval author would not write the Hebrew word for foot (or leg) when labeling a star whose Arabic name means leg or foot.

Monica
2018-Nov-22, 01:33 AM
I know what you are trying to do. That does not turn bare feet into a leg or a foot. It does not explain why a medieval author would not write the Hebrew word for foot (or leg) when labeling a star whose Arabic name means leg or foot.

many hebrew people believed the Hebrew language was the language of God, and would use the hebrew alphabet in other languages like aramaic so as not to corrupt Gods language.

Reality Check
2018-Nov-22, 02:14 AM
An irrelevant reply does not turn bare feet into a leg or a foot. It does not explain why a medieval author would not write the Hebrew word for foot (or leg) when labeling a star whose Arabic name means leg or foot.

CJSF
2018-Nov-23, 10:22 PM
I'm sorry, I'm not following how this proves that the markings in the Voynich Manuscript are necessarily words and not just an artist's markings.

My understanding was that the VM was crafted by some clever people specifically to sell for a high price to a wealthy landowner who believed it to be an exotic text with potential health secrets.

That is one of many hypotheses of the VM's origin that has little or no conclusive evidence over any other hypothesis. The latest and best scientific investigations seem to verify that it was written in the mid 1400s in a natural and "flowing" hand (meaning no tell-tale hesitations if someone were either translating, encrypting, or making things up on the fly). AI and advanced algorithms seem to indicate that the VM text has all the characteristics of a "natural language". Among the hoax hypothesis' strongest pieces of evidence are the plant drawings that either don't match anything anyone has ever seen, or seem to be "chimeras" of multiple plants (roots from one, stems from another, leaves or flowers from another). But a hoax is not the only explanation for such odd drawings. I feel we'll never really know what it's about. I don't mind Monica running down this idea, but I hope she can accept if it turns out to be a dead-end. Good luck, Monica.

CJSF

Reality Check
2018-Nov-25, 11:56 PM
Monica, you may want to read AI didn’t decode the cryptic Voynich manuscript — it just added to the mystery (https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16959454/voynich-manuscript-mystery-ai-decoded-debunked). This lists some of the pitfalls in attempting to translate the manuscript. Computer science researchers made a statistical analysis of the text (the "AI" bit is an exaggeration). But

There is no agreement on what the VM character set is (25 to 30 characters depending on interpretation).
They found a statistical inference for several languages with no way to tell which was most likely. These included Hebrew and Malay! The authors selected Hebrew.
15th century Hebrew is different from modern Hebrew. They used Google Translate rather than asking a Hebrew scholar.
15th century scientific Hebrew would be different from Biblical or liturgical Hebrew.
They assumed that the language was a substitution cipher and anagrams but the anagram assumption is not well established.
Written Hebrew has no vowels. Apply anagrams to a word and it is easy to turn nonsense into Hebrew word(s) and then confirmation bias picks the word that the authors want. In this case, a nonsensical first sentence becomes a coherent but strange sentence to start a manuscript.

Delvo
2018-Nov-26, 12:21 AM
What is your Voynich phonetic system and how did you arrive at it?

CaptainToonces
2018-Dec-06, 12:29 AM
AI and advanced algorithms seem to indicate that the VM text has all the characteristics of a "natural language".

Your post is good but I think this part is a bit of a stretch. There is no punctuation. Words often appear twice in a row, or three times in a row. There may be some languages that have those characteristics but it would be rather unusual. I think your statement would be more accurate as saying the VM text has "some" characteristics of natural language rather than "all".